Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
John W. Redelfs wrote: Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that we don't pray to Jesus Christ. We pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ. Anyway, it is impossible to worship one member of the Godhead without worshipping all three. They are that one. --JWR So does this mean that if I am mad at, say, the Holy Ghost, and I don't want to worship Him, I'm stuck? Sorry, but I don't buy this three-in-one thing. They are distinct. They may be one in mind, but not in substance. Did I end up on a Presbyterian list somehow? How did THAT happen? :-) Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
Ya know, now that you mention it, I don't think that there is anything wrong with having a little talk with Christ. The gratitude I am certain we all feel for Christ and what He did for us is well beyond anything that I can express in words. And how about talking with your mother or father or spouse or whatever who has left this mortal estate? Or what about thanking Alma for the wonderful example he was and is for you? I would also hazard to guess that many of us have thought very much about Christ and have even spoken directly to Him during the Sacrament prayer. It would be hard not to, given our promise to always remember Him. It would seem strange to me indeed if one were ever penalized for expressing the sincere thoughts they have for these people. Jon Paul Osborne wrote: Right. I can go along with this, Marc. However, you might recall that I said earlier that there are times in my life when I sneak a prayer to Jesus only without thinking of the Father. I wouldn't teach this at the church pulpit, or what not, but I am telling my friends (you) in private that sometimes (not often) I just want to focus my thoughts on Christ alone and tell him that I love him and need him-- he is my brother. This tone does come from the Book of Mormon. Don't get me wrong, most every prayer I utter is directed to the Father and I know that Christ is there too, BUT, there are times I feel a need to think solely of Christ and his atonement and if I think of the Father I get distracted. I have also had this experience of prayer with Heavenly Mother a few times when I just wanted to talk to her and no one else. Wow!! I won't get into it, it's too sacred. Anyway, its my own business and I'm just sharing a little about me. I'm not encouraging anyone to do as I do. Worship how or what you may according to the dictates of your own conscience. And if you guys don't like what I said-- Oh well, suit yourself. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Worship Christ
-Paul- there are times in my life when I sneak a prayer to Jesus only without thinking of the Father. I wouldn't teach this at the church pulpit, or what not, but I am telling my friends (you) in private that sometimes (not often) I just want to focus my thoughts on Christ alone and tell him that I love him and need him-- he is my brother. This tone does come from the Book of Mormon. I don't know if this is appropriate or not. I rather suspect not, based on Christ's teachings and the example set by our leaders, but I am not sure. Note that in the Book of Mormon, they only prayed to Christ directly when he was physically standing in front of them, as he himself pointed out (3 Ne 19:22: Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and THEY PRAY UNTO ME BECAUSE I AM WITH THEM). -Jon- Ya know, now that you mention it, I don't think that there is anything wrong with having a little talk with Christ. The gratitude I am certain we all feel for Christ and what He did for us is well beyond anything that I can express in words. Are we then also justified in praying to our celestial Mother? I don't believe so; people who have taught this particualr thing have been excommunicated for apostasy. Perhaps praying to Jesus is somehow entirely different. But to my small mind, our prayers are directed to the Father and to him alone. If Jesus comes to visit me, I'll pray to him; otherwise, I think it's probably not appropriate. That's just my viewpoint, of course. Do whatever you feel right about doing. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
Thanks for the references. I had in mind only one, and I'm too lazy to go look it up, but I'm sure it's well known to list members, and that's BRMcC's famous Seven Deadly Heresies talk. Also, if I recall correctly, didn't the Nephites worship Christ only to a point, after which he told them to worship the Father? Perhaps we should separate the terms pray to and worship. John W. Redelfs wrote: Paul Osborne favored us with: I agree with you on this John and submit the following to Marc which I think shows that we must worship Christ as well as his Father and not just in name only: They Spoke to Us, Friend, Dec. 1998, 15 President Gordon B. Hinckley: We believe in Christ. We worship Christ. We take upon ourselves in solemn covenant His holy name. The Church to which we belong carries His name. He is our Lord, our Savior, our Redeemer through whom came the great Atonement with salvation and eternal life. Robert E. Wells, Be a Friend, a Servant, a Son of the Savior, Ensign, Nov. 1982, 69 I said to my friend, Please allow me to explain that we definitely are Christianswe do worship God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ Dallin H. Oaks, Why Do We Serve? New Era, Mar. 1988, 5 Service is an imperative for those who worship Jesus Christ. And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Heb 1:6 And after he had said these words, he said unto me: Look! And I looked, and I beheld the Son of God going forth among the children of men; and I saw many fall down at his feet and worship him. 1 Ne 11:24 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out. 2 Ne 25:29 I just love it when you cite sources, Paul. It adds so much more credibility to your opinions. I commend the practice to all. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
I certainly wouldn't object to that. Paul Osborne wrote: Interesting -- I think you might have me there, at least partially, as I was unaware of the GBH quote. I suppose I should have defined the term more tightly and say that we don't *pray* to Jesus Christ. Right. I can go along with this, Marc. However, you might recall that I said earlier that there are times in my life when I sneak a prayer to Jesus only without thinking of the Father. I wouldn't teach this at the church pulpit, or what not, but I am telling my friends (you) in private that sometimes (not often) I just want to focus my thoughts on Christ alone and tell him that I love him and need him-- he is my brother. This tone does come from the Book of Mormon. Don't get me wrong, most every prayer I utter is directed to the Father and I know that Christ is there too, BUT, there are times I feel a need to think solely of Christ and his atonement and if I think of the Father I get distracted. I have also had this experience of prayer with Heavenly Mother a few times when I just wanted to talk to her and no one else. Wow!! I won't get into it, it's too sacred. Anyway, its my own business and I'm just sharing a little about me. I'm not encouraging anyone to do as I do. Worship how or what you may according to the dictates of your own conscience. And if you guys don't like what I said-- Oh well, suit yourself. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
Also, if I recall correctly, didn't the Nephites worship Christ only to a point, after which he told them to worship the Father? The Nephites worshipped Christ because he was the ETERNAL GOD and they loved him with all their hearts. It is true that the mortal Jesus taught the Jews how to pray to the Father and the resurrected Jesus in turn taught the Nephites how to pray to the Father. This does not at all diminish the worship we should have for Christ today. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
Marc I certainly wouldn't object to that. You my friend, are indeed a Christian. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
Paul Osborne favored us with: Bernard P. Brockbank, The Living Christ, Ensign, May 1977, 26 The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints worships a God and a Jesus Christ with bodies, with parts, and with passions. Which is not to say that we are to pray to Jesus Christ. We are not supposed to do that. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
Paul Osborne favored us with: Both the Book of Mormon as scripture and Joseph Smith as a prophet bear witness to Jesus Christ as Savior. The Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price bear that same great witness, as do all of the modern prophets and apostles. Though all the world may say that Latter-day Saints do not know or love or worship Jesus Christ, the truth is that we do. If this is not enough to be counted as Christian, then that word has lost its meaning. The reconciliation between those who say we worship Jesus and other who say we must worship only the Father is this: On group is using the word worship to mean pray to, and the other is using a much broader definition of the term worship. Like so many other words, worship has more than one meaning. Hence, the two sides are arguing over semantics. President Hinckley has never suggested that we should pray to Jesus. Nor did Elder McConkie ever suggest that we should not adore Jesus Christ for what he has done in our behalf. Both President Hinckley and Elder McConkie would agree that we are not to pray to Jesus, but that we are to pray to Father in the name of Jesus. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Anytime I see something screech across a room and latch onto someones neck, and the guy screams and tries to get it off, I have to laugh, because what is that thing. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
Paul Osborne favored us with: What do you mean we don't worship Christ? I worship Jesus Christ and so do the prophets of every dispensation. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that we don't pray to Jesus Christ. We pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ. Anyway, it is impossible to worship one member of the Godhead without worshipping all three. They are that one. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
Interesting -- I think you might have me there, at least partially, as I was unaware of the GBH quote. I suppose I should have defined the term more tightly and say that we don't *pray* to Jesus Christ. Paul Osborne wrote: Paul Osborne favored us with: What do you mean we don't worship Christ? I worship Jesus Christ and so do the prophets of every dispensation. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that we don't pray to Jesus Christ. We pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ. Anyway, it is impossible to worship one member of the Godhead without worshipping all three. They are that one. --JWR I agree with you on this John and submit the following to Marc which I think shows that we must worship Christ as well as his Father and not just in name only: They Spoke to Us, Friend, Dec. 1998, 15 President Gordon B. Hinckley: We believe in Christ. We worship Christ. We take upon ourselves in solemn covenant His holy name. The Church to which we belong carries His name. He is our Lord, our Savior, our Redeemer through whom came the great Atonement with salvation and eternal life. Robert E. Wells, Be a Friend, a Servant, a Son of the Savior, Ensign, Nov. 1982, 69 I said to my friend, Please allow me to explain that we definitely are Christianswe do worship God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ Dallin H. Oaks, Why Do We Serve? New Era, Mar. 1988, 5 Service is an imperative for those who worship Jesus Christ. And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Heb 1:6 And after he had said these words, he said unto me: Look! And I looked, and I beheld the Son of God going forth among the children of men; and I saw many fall down at his feet and worship him. 1 Ne 11:24 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out. 2 Ne 25:29 Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him. 3 Ne 11:17 And they did all, both they who had been healed and they who were whole, bow down at his feet, and did worship him; and as many as could come for the multitude did kiss his feet, insomuch that they did bathe his feet with their tears. 3 Ne 17:10 Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Worship Christ
-Paul- What do you mean we don't worship Christ? I worship Jesus Christ and so do the prophets of every dispensation. [...] I agree with you on this John and submit the following to Marc which I think shows that we must worship Christ as well as his Father and not just in name only: [...] Bruce R. McConkie, BYU Devotional speech, 2 March 1982: Let us set forth those doctrines and concepts that a gracious God has given to us in this day and which must be understood in order to gain eternal life. They are: 1. We worship the Father and him only and no one else. We do not worship the Son and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense--the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to Him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator. I don't believe Elder McConkie's teachings on the topic conflict with the other quotations you provided, and it does clearly teach that we do not worship Christ in the same sense as we worship the Father. I can't speak for Marc, of course (heaven forbid I try!), and truthfully I don't even remember the context of what he said; but in my mind this teaching gives validity to the doctrine that we don't worship Christ. At this point, I think it's all a matter of definition. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
Interesting -- I think you might have me there, at least partially, as I was unaware of the GBH quote. I suppose I should have defined the term more tightly and say that we don't *pray* to Jesus Christ. Right. I can go along with this, Marc. However, you might recall that I said earlier that there are times in my life when I sneak a prayer to Jesus only without thinking of the Father. I wouldn't teach this at the church pulpit, or what not, but I am telling my friends (you) in private that sometimes (not often) I just want to focus my thoughts on Christ alone and tell him that I love him and need him-- he is my brother. This tone does come from the Book of Mormon. Don't get me wrong, most every prayer I utter is directed to the Father and I know that Christ is there too, BUT, there are times I feel a need to think solely of Christ and his atonement and if I think of the Father I get distracted. I have also had this experience of prayer with Heavenly Mother a few times when I just wanted to talk to her and no one else. Wow!! I won't get into it, it's too sacred. Anyway, its my own business and I'm just sharing a little about me. I'm not encouraging anyone to do as I do. Worship how or what you may according to the dictates of your own conscience. And if you guys don't like what I said-- Oh well, suit yourself. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
Paul, I think you have misunderstood what the prophets have been doing for we are commanded to: (Doctrine and Covenants 20:17-20.) 17 By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them; 18 And that he created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them; 19 And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship. You will notice that it says that God (the Father) is the only being that we should worship. A few years ago there was quite a program in books and other literature that promoted, in the Church, making Christ the center of our lives. It was quietly discouraged and the material were withdrawn by the authors. Because God the Father is in fact the only authorized object of our worship. We can love, respect,hold in high esteem and appreciation the Son, our redeemer, but we worship only the Father. George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Worship Christ Marc We have been told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the Father. What do you mean we don't worship Christ? I worship Jesus Christ and so do the prophets of every dispensation. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
Paul Osborne favored us with: I agree with you on this John and submit the following to Marc which I think shows that we must worship Christ as well as his Father and not just in name only: They Spoke to Us, Friend, Dec. 1998, 15 President Gordon B. Hinckley: We believe in Christ. We worship Christ. We take upon ourselves in solemn covenant His holy name. The Church to which we belong carries His name. He is our Lord, our Savior, our Redeemer through whom came the great Atonement with salvation and eternal life. Robert E. Wells, Be a Friend, a Servant, a Son of the Savior, Ensign, Nov. 1982, 69 I said to my friend, Please allow me to explain that we definitely are Christianswe do worship God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ Dallin H. Oaks, Why Do We Serve? New Era, Mar. 1988, 5 Service is an imperative for those who worship Jesus Christ. And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Heb 1:6 And after he had said these words, he said unto me: Look! And I looked, and I beheld the Son of God going forth among the children of men; and I saw many fall down at his feet and worship him. 1 Ne 11:24 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out. 2 Ne 25:29 I just love it when you cite sources, Paul. It adds so much more credibility to your opinions. I commend the practice to all. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
First Presidency Message A Testimony of the Son of God Ensign, December 2002 By President Gordon B. Hinckley We honor Him, we worship Him, we love Him as our Redeemer, the great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New Testament. The entire thrust of the testimony of the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants declares our living Lord before whom we kneel in humility and faith. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
George, You're welcome to take up your differences with President Hinkley if you like. As for me and my house, we will worship Christ. Paul O On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 23:49:27 -0700 George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Paul, I think you have misunderstood what the prophets have been doing for we are commanded to: (Doctrine and Covenants 20:17-20.) 17 By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them; 18 And that he created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them; 19 And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship. You will notice that it says that God (the Father) is the only being that we should worship. A few years ago there was quite a program in books and other literature that promoted, in the Church, making Christ the center of our lives. It was quietly discouraged and the material were withdrawn by the authors. Because God the Father is in fact the only authorized object of our worship. We can love, respect,hold in high esteem and appreciation the Son, our redeemer, but we worship only the Father. George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Worship Christ Marc We have been told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the Father. What do you mean we don't worship Christ? I worship Jesus Christ and so do the prophets of every dispensation. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
I appreciate the offer, however I would be interested in your take on the scripture and what it means. I confess your quotes regarding worshiping Christ are troubling with regard to his verse. How do you reconcile the two? George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 12:18 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Worship Christ George, You're welcome to take up your differences with President Hinkley if you like. As for me and my house, we will worship Christ. Paul O On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 23:49:27 -0700 George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Paul, I think you have misunderstood what the prophets have been doing for we are commanded to: (Doctrine and Covenants 20:17-20.) 17 By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them; 18 And that he created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them; 19 And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship. You will notice that it says that God (the Father) is the only being that we should worship. A few years ago there was quite a program in books and other literature that promoted, in the Church, making Christ the center of our lives. It was quietly discouraged and the material were withdrawn by the authors. Because God the Father is in fact the only authorized object of our worship. We can love, respect,hold in high esteem and appreciation the Son, our redeemer, but we worship only the Father. George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Worship Christ Marc We have been told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the Father. What do you mean we don't worship Christ? I worship Jesus Christ and so do the prophets of every dispensation. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
I confess your quotes regarding worshiping Christ are troubling with regard to his verse. How do you reconcile the two? I've got to go to bed now. I'm absolutely exhausted and sick too, again. I'll just say that the difference between the three members of the Godhead boils down to one fact, and that is our Father Elohiem is the father of our spirits and Jesus and the Holy Ghost are not. We cannot worship Christ and the Holy Ghost in quite the exact same way as we can our Father because our Father begat our spirits--abba father. I think this is basically what Elder McConkie was summing up when he made his comments. But, we should know that the scriptures tell us point blank that Jesus Christ is the ETERNAL GOD. I am mean for crying out loud it is written all throughout the scriptures and how men and women have worshipped him as such. We can't get to the Father without going through the Son. And that means we worship the Son too--and we should have the Holy Spirit with us when we do so. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
Stephen E. Robinson, Are Mormons Christians? New Era, May 1998, 41 Both the Book of Mormon as scripture and Joseph Smith as a prophet bear witness to Jesus Christ as Savior. The Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price bear that same great witness, as do all of the modern prophets and apostles. Though all the world may say that Latter-day Saints do not know or love or worship Jesus Christ, the truth is that we do. If this is not enough to be counted as Christian, then that word has lost its meaning. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Worship Christ
Bernard P. Brockbank, The Living Christ, Ensign, May 1977, 26 The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints worships a God and a Jesus Christ with bodies, with parts, and with passions. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
