Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
Oh, don't tell that to Quebeckers. It's their boisson national. Ronn Blankenship wrote: At 12:12 AM 11/17/02, Rick Mathis wrote: At 07:56 PM 11/16/2002 -0800, Stacy wrote: It shocked me to realize that coffee has theophylline in it. That's considered a medicine by doctors. I think it dilates the bronchials. Interesting. For what it's worth, I've used a couple of cans of Pepsi when I didn't have access to one of my inhalors to treat an asthma attack. It may be all in my head, but it seemed to work quite well. Tasted better than albuterol, too. How could you tell? If you like Pepsi, clearly you have no taste . . . ;-b --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
What else does coffee have in it besides caffeine? Are there other active ingredients? Stacy. At 03:08 PM 11/12/2002 -0600, you wrote: Marc wrote: Many people assume it means no caffeine, but if that were the case a good portion of OTC drugs that we take would be verboten. Is decaff okay? No. Clearly we're not to drink coffee or (green/black) tea. That's what it means, not no caffeine. We tend to get bogged down in unimportant details. You're absolutely right, Marc. I love the smell of coffee and I suppose it will always be a temptation for me. There is nothing wrong with being tempted so long as you don't yield to the temptation and partake of the forbidden substance. I'm hoping that the coffee bean will someday be pronounced clean. What do you think? Every time I walk down the isle of the grocery store and smell those flavored beans it puts my nose in a state of alert. What do you suppose the coffee bean is for? Surely it must serve some sort of purpose other than to tempt the weaker saints like me. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
Caffeine's chemical name is trimethylxanthine. Here's a link to a site that lists the other ingredients: http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/dec2001/1007419335.Ch.r.html I would say, offhand, that theobromine is the only other active ingredient; most of the other things get oxidized during roasting, and some of them are responsible for the raw coffee bean's bitter taste. Stacy Smith wrote: What else does coffee have in it besides caffeine? Are there other active ingredients? Stacy. At 03:08 PM 11/12/2002 -0600, you wrote: Marc wrote: Many people assume it means no caffeine, but if that were the case a good portion of OTC drugs that we take would be verboten. Is decaff okay? No. Clearly we're not to drink coffee or (green/black) tea. That's what it means, not no caffeine. We tend to get bogged down in unimportant details. You're absolutely right, Marc. I love the smell of coffee and I suppose it will always be a temptation for me. There is nothing wrong with being tempted so long as you don't yield to the temptation and partake of the forbidden substance. I'm hoping that the coffee bean will someday be pronounced clean. What do you think? Every time I walk down the isle of the grocery store and smell those flavored beans it puts my nose in a state of alert. What do you suppose the coffee bean is for? Surely it must serve some sort of purpose other than to tempt the weaker saints like me. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
The term theobromine, incidentally, comes from Greek, drink of the Gods, and was applied to chocholate in drinkable form when it was first brought to Europe. Ronn Blankenship wrote: At 02:48 PM 11/16/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote: Caffeine's chemical name is trimethylxanthine. 1,3,7-trimethylxanthine, to be precise. Or 1,3,7,-trimethyl 2,6-dioxopurine, or 3,7-dihydro-1,3,7-trimethyl-1H-purine-2,6-dione Here's a link to a site that lists the other ingredients: http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/dec2001/1007419335.Ch.r.html I would say, offhand, that theobromine 3,7-dimethylxanthine. Or 3,7,-dimethyl 2,6-dioxopurine, or 3,7-dihydro-3,7-dimethyl-1H-purine-2,6-dione is the only other active ingredient; As caffeine is the primary methylxanthine compound in coffee, theobromine is the primary member of the family in chocolate. The third member of the family is theophylline 1,3-dimethylxanthine, or 1,3,-dimethyl 2,6-dioxopurine, or 3,7-dihydro-1,3-dimethyl-1H-purine-2,6-dione which is more common in tea than in coffee or chocolate, and is used in the treatment of asthma (prescription brand name Theo-dur, etc.). (FWIW, I've been unable to find out why there is apparently no such compound as 1,7-trimethylxanthine. Not only is no such compound listed in the Merck Index or other standard references, none of the chemists or biologists I work with at school had an answer, either.) most of the other things get oxidized during roasting, and some of them are responsible for the raw coffee bean's bitter taste. As alkaloids, all members of the methylxanthine family have a bitter taste. I know that No-Doz brand caffeine pills have some sort of sweet flavoring added to hide the bitter taste, though I don't know it that's true of other brands. I imagine that if you held one in your mouth for any length of time, though, the bitter taste would overwhelm the flavoring, as happens with other types of pills . . . --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
At 08:43 PM 11/16/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote: The term theobromine, incidentally, comes from Greek, drink of the Gods, and was applied to chocholate in drinkable form when it was first brought to Europe. Theophylline, however, does not mean friend of the gods, as one might naively guess from the above. In fact, the theo in the latter compound is derived from tea while the same portion of theobromine is derived from the word deo or theo for a deity . . . --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
Interesting -- I didn't know that. A case of faux amis (false cognates). So what's phylline from? The only thing I can think of, going from my limited knowledge of Greek, is type in the sense of something that's in a class of things that have something in common. (Same as the word phylum) So I would, offhand, speculate that theophylline means substances derived from tea. Is that correct? Ronn Blankenship wrote: At 08:43 PM 11/16/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote: The term theobromine, incidentally, comes from Greek, drink of the Gods, and was applied to chocholate in drinkable form when it was first brought to Europe. Theophylline, however, does not mean friend of the gods, as one might naively guess from the above. In fact, the theo in the latter compound is derived from tea while the same portion of theobromine is derived from the word deo or theo for a deity . . . --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
-Ronn- (FWIW, I've been unable to find out why there is apparently no such compound as 1,7-trimethylxanthine. Perhaps because the 1,7 and the tri prefixes are mutually exclusive? Just a guess. :) Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
At 09:03 PM 11/16/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote: Interesting -- I didn't know that. A case of faux amis (false cognates). So what's phylline from? The only thing I can think of, going from my limited knowledge of Greek, is type in the sense of something that's in a class of things that have something in common. (Same as the word phylum) So I would, offhand, speculate that theophylline means substances derived from tea. Is that correct? Maybe. The only etymology I have seen (in chemistry books) was for the tea theo- part. Speculation based on _my_ very limited knowledge of Greek: Is there any relation between philia (= friend) and phylum (= maybe a group of friends)? --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
At 09:07 PM 11/16/02, Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Ronn- (FWIW, I've been unable to find out why there is apparently no such compound as 1,7-trimethylxanthine. Perhaps because the 1,7 and the tri prefixes are mutually exclusive? Just a guess. :) Oops. I meant 1,7-dimethylxanthine . . . --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
-Ronn- (FWIW, I've been unable to find out why there is apparently no such compound as 1,7-trimethylxanthine. Oops. I meant 1,7-dimethylxanthine . . . Also called paraxanthine; described as an adenosine receptor ligand and a major metabolite of caffeine at http://www.sigma-aldrich.com/rbi/datasheet/a005dat.pdf Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
At 09:29 PM 11/16/02, Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Ronn- (FWIW, I've been unable to find out why there is apparently no such compound as 1,7-trimethylxanthine. Oops. I meant 1,7-dimethylxanthine . . . Also called paraxanthine; described as an adenosine receptor ligand and a major metabolite of caffeine at http://www.sigma-aldrich.com/rbi/datasheet/a005dat.pdf Do tell. I wonder why this page never turned up before? I know there's a dead tree version of the Sigma-Aldrich catalog in the department office: I will have to look in there. I suppose that it's possible that the only listing in Merck or the CRC is under paraxanthine without any other cross-reference . . . Sigma-RBI brand products are sold through Sigma-Aldrich, Inc. Sigma-Aldrich, Inc. warrants that its products conform to the information contained in this and other Sigma-Aldrich publications. Purchaser must determine the suitability of the product(s) for their particular use. Additional terms and conditions may apply. Please see reverse side of the invoice or packing slip. Cat. No. A-005 PARAXANTHINE 1,7-DIMETHYLXANTHINE 95% purity Adenosine receptor ligand; major metabolite of caffeine. Mol. Formula: C7 H8 N4 O2 Mol. Wt.: 180.17 (anhyd.) m.p.: 297-299°C CAS Registry No.: 611-59-6 Chemical Name: 3,7-Dihydro-1,7-dimethyl-1H-purine-2,6-dione Physical Properties: White solid. Caution: Due care should be exercised to prevent skin contact, ingestion or inhalation of this compound. RTECS No. RV938. Pharmacology: Ki = 30 mM at A1 receptors. Storage: Store tightly sealed at room temperature. Solubility: Soluble in 0.1N NaOH (2 mg/ml), water (1 mg/ml) or ethanol (0.6 mg/ml). Disposal: Dissolve or mix the compound with a combustible solvent and burn in a chemical incinerator equipped with an afterburner and scrubber. [Sounds like fun stuff . . . ] References: 1. Snyder, S.H., Katims, J.J., Annau, Z., Bruns, R.F., Daly, J.W. Adenosine receptors and behavioral actions of methylxanthines. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 78, 3260 (1981). 2. Ferre, S., Guix, T., Salles, J., Badia, A., Parra, P., Jane, F., Herrera-Marschitz, M., Ungerstedt, U., Casas, M. Paraxanthine displaces the binding of [3H]SCH 23390 from rat striatal membranes. Eur. J. Pharmacol. 179, 295-299 (1990). --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
Aren't adenosine receptors also part of the same pathways that opiates bond to? That might explain the addictive nature of caffeine. Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Ronn- (FWIW, I've been unable to find out why there is apparently no such compound as 1,7-trimethylxanthine. Oops. I meant 1,7-dimethylxanthine . . . Also called paraxanthine; described as an adenosine receptor ligand and a major metabolite of caffeine at http://www.sigma-aldrich.com/rbi/datasheet/a005dat.pdf Stephen -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
It shocked me to realize that coffee has theophylline in it. That's considered a medicine by doctors. I think it dilates the bronchials. Interesting. Stacy. At 08:03 PM 11/16/2002 -0700, you wrote: Interesting -- I didn't know that. A case of faux amis (false cognates). So what's phylline from? The only thing I can think of, going from my limited knowledge of Greek, is type in the sense of something that's in a class of things that have something in common. (Same as the word phylum) So I would, offhand, speculate that theophylline means substances derived from tea. Is that correct? Ronn Blankenship wrote: At 08:43 PM 11/16/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote: The term theobromine, incidentally, comes from Greek, drink of the Gods, and was applied to chocholate in drinkable form when it was first brought to Europe. Theophylline, however, does not mean friend of the gods, as one might naively guess from the above. In fact, the theo in the latter compound is derived from tea while the same portion of theobromine is derived from the word deo or theo for a deity . . . --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
At 09:43 PM 11/16/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote: Oh, NOW you've opened a can of worms. Recall that the only way to re-can worms after the can has been opened is to use a larger can. Ronn -- a short lecture on chemical nomenclature if you don't mind. What *do* those numbers before a chemical compound's name mean? Oy. AFAIK, this list is restricted to text-only, and this is one of those cases where a picture is worth at least 1,000 words (if not more). Short answer: the numbers in 1,3,7-trimethylxanthine, for example, indicate that methyl (CH3-) groups have replaced the hydrogens normally found at the locations on the xanthine molecule that by agreement¹ are numbered 1, 3, and 7. ¹Long answer: For the ultimate word on naming compounds, see: http://www.chem.qmul.ac.uk/iupac/ (Have fun!) Or ask your son to mail you his textbook when he finishes organic. And while you're at it, do we live in a left-handed world or a right-handed world, and why? Short answer: Most life on Earth uses left-handed amino acids. No one knows why. Although the amino acids found in meteorites such as the Murchison² and Allende meteorites contain a large amount of right-handed forms (suggesting a non-biological origin), there is a light excess of left-handed forms. A recent hypothesis (speculation?) I have heard is that the polarization of starlight hitting molecules in molecular clouds may preferentially destroy right-handed molecules, thus the protoplanetary disk from which those meteorites formed already contained an excess of left-handed amino acids, which may (or may not) explain why life on Earth came to be almost exclusively composed of the left-handed forms, as those were available in larger quantities. ²Did the BYU Geology Department ever locate the piece of the Murchison meteorite that was given to them back in 1979, and promptly misplaced? --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
At 09:56 PM 11/16/02, Stacy Smith wrote: It shocked me to realize that coffee has theophylline in it. That's considered a medicine by doctors. I think it dilates the bronchials. Interesting. Caffeine can be used as a bronchodilator, too, and in fact was once used for that purpose. Theophylline has fewer side effects. In an emergency, though, coffee can be used by asthmatics to try to obtain some relief if nothing better is available. --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
At 07:56 PM 11/16/2002 -0800, Stacy wrote: It shocked me to realize that coffee has theophylline in it. That's considered a medicine by doctors. I think it dilates the bronchials. Interesting. For what it's worth, I've used a couple of cans of Pepsi when I didn't have access to one of my inhalors to treat an asthma attack. It may be all in my head, but it seemed to work quite well. Tasted better than albuterol, too. Rick Mathis // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
At 12:12 AM 11/17/02, Rick Mathis wrote: At 07:56 PM 11/16/2002 -0800, Stacy wrote: It shocked me to realize that coffee has theophylline in it. That's considered a medicine by doctors. I think it dilates the bronchials. Interesting. For what it's worth, I've used a couple of cans of Pepsi when I didn't have access to one of my inhalors to treat an asthma attack. It may be all in my head, but it seemed to work quite well. Tasted better than albuterol, too. How could you tell? If you like Pepsi, clearly you have no taste . . . ;-b --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
I should answer my own earlier, rhetorical question to make one point plain (and I agree with what you said, btw, this is just an additional point): vis-a-vis coffee/tea and caffeine. I would not have a problem with the occasional popping of a caffeine pill if you're driving late at night for a long period of time, for instance, but I'd do it with great care, as it's also an addictive drug. OTOH, I wouldn't drink decaf coffee, either -- to me that's a clear violation of the WoW. Your verstage may vary. For an Albertan, despite this being the home of k d lang, who we consider as a bit of an, er, aberration, anyway, it's hard for us to give up our meat. We had emu meat the other day, and Cathy was tempted to pick up a couple of bison steaks at the farmer's market at the main mall in Spruce Grove last weekend, but it was a bit pricey so she settled for SuperStore beef. When I was young and reckless (as opposed to being middle-aged and reckless), I used to entertain customers -- take them to lunch, and even on rare occasions, to dinner. We once had this small group come up from the U. of Michigan. They had developed a special array processor which would have application in the oil industry (seismic processing is computer intensive) and our company was going to represent them in Canada. So I took the group to Smuggler's Inn on Macleod Trail in Calgary, which featured, and I kid you not, 24 oz prime rib (remember: that's all meat -- no bone, like a steak). It was a good inch thick and covered the whole plate. The president of the company ordered it on a dare from one of his techies, and when it arrived, he just kept staring at it, saying, over and over, I can't eat this, I can't eat this... I settled for a more reasonable 16 oz ;-) I know a cowboy restaurant/bar off the LBJ freeway in Dallas which serves 48-oz steaks. We used to have a restaurant in Edmonton, called the Ranchman's, which served them, too, but I don't know if they still do. Once I took some Scottish doctors and nurses to lunch at a British pub on Calgary Trail (Mark will probably know the Lion's Head, in the office tower/hotel complex just north of Whitemud Crossing). They decided to have venison on buns, and after the nurse from Aberdeen, a sweet lady about a year from retirement, was halfway through it, I leaned over and said, You know, of course, Mrs. Crampton, that you're eating a Bambiburger? She almost threw it across the table. I'm so mean. Jon Spencer wrote: We all know the caffeine thing. (Actually, one of the funny little side comments from the movie Singles Ward is about how his girlfriend is less than enthusiastic about him because she found a couple of empty Dr. Pepper bottles in his car. Ya gotta see this movie if you haven't!) I clearly didn't mean that it meant that we should be vegetarians (given my signature line). However, I think that the meaning is quite clear, and that we would probably all do better, and receive more blessings, if we followed the WoW a little more closely than we do (myself included). And I do not need to rely on the prophets for something that, as far as I know, they have not commented upon. I believe that it is up to me to understand the best I can. And as far as I can tell, the veggies live the WoW better, on this topic, than does the average member I know (myself included). Jon - Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:28 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...) I think it means what it says, but the point is that modern-day prophets have defined what the WoW means for us. I'll give you an example. Many people assume it means no caffeine, but if that were the case a good portion of OTC drugs that we take would be verboten. Is decaff okay? No. Clearly we're not to drink coffee or (green/black) tea. That's what it means, not no caffeine. We tend to get bogged down in unimportant details. But in any case the phrase you quote doesn't mean vegetarianism, as a vegetarian will eat no meat, not just eat meat sparingly. Jon Spencer wrote: So exactly what does (paraphrasing from memory) the following mean: eat meat sparingly and only in the winter ? Jon, soon to be on his way for a quarter pounder with cheese Marc A. Schindler wrote: Again, I say, we should follow the commandments of the prophets, and they have told us to get involved in politics. I don't see that that implies necessarily that we'll get involved at the expense of the Gospel. Quite the opposite, since we're doing what we're told to do. It's just like the Word of Wisdom -- some people take it to extremes, trying to convert others to, say, vegetarianism on the supposed basis of the WoW. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: So exactly what does (paraphrasing from memory) the following mean: eat meat sparingly and only in the winter ? That is not what it says. It says, Eat meat sparingly and they should not be used only in times of winter or hunger. To me that clearly means that we should not limit our use of these things to winter or hunger. But that we are to eat meat sparingly at all times. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] = To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary. I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad. --Jack Handy = All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
I think it means what it says, but the point is that modern-day prophets have defined what the WoW means for us. I'll give you an example. Many people assume it means no caffeine, but if that were the case a good portion of OTC drugs that we take would be verboten. Is decaff okay? No. Clearly we're not to drink coffee or (green/black) tea. That's what it means, not no caffeine. We tend to get bogged down in unimportant details. But in any case the phrase you quote doesn't mean vegetarianism, as a vegetarian will eat no meat, not just eat meat sparingly. Jon Spencer wrote: So exactly what does (paraphrasing from memory) the following mean: eat meat sparingly and only in the winter ? Jon, soon to be on his way for a quarter pounder with cheese Marc A. Schindler wrote: Again, I say, we should follow the commandments of the prophets, and they have told us to get involved in politics. I don't see that that implies necessarily that we'll get involved at the expense of the Gospel. Quite the opposite, since we're doing what we're told to do. It's just like the Word of Wisdom -- some people take it to extremes, trying to convert others to, say, vegetarianism on the supposed basis of the WoW. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
There's been a lot of discussion about this. My own opinion is that, given speech patterns of the day, the sentence is parsed better with a comma after used. In other words, it *does* restrict meat to only times of winter or hunger. The phrase not be used only is anachronistically late 20th century. Otherwise it appears to be self-contradictory, unless you're living mostly in times of winter and hunger. In any case, I don't think it's a big deal, but it certainly isn't a justification for vegetarianism, as good an idea as vegetarianism may be (but for others, not me!) John W. Redelfs wrote: After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: So exactly what does (paraphrasing from memory) the following mean: eat meat sparingly and only in the winter ? That is not what it says. It says, Eat meat sparingly and they should not be used only in times of winter or hunger. To me that clearly means that we should not limit our use of these things to winter or hunger. But that we are to eat meat sparingly at all times. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] = To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary. I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad. --Jack Handy = All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
That is not what it says. It says, Eat meat sparingly and they should not be used only in times of winter or hunger. To me that clearly means that we should not limit our use of these things to winter or hunger. But that we are to eat meat sparingly at all times. I don't eat meat with every meal and certainly not every day. What does sparingly mean? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
Then I'm in trouble because I use lots of convenience foods because I have trouble cooking. I guess I'll have to tell the bishop that I'm working on substituting some soy products for meat dishes but I'll need to know where soy TV dinners, etc. exist. Stacy. At 11:46 AM 11/12/2002 -0700, you wrote: There's been a lot of discussion about this. My own opinion is that, given speech patterns of the day, the sentence is parsed better with a comma after used. In other words, it *does* restrict meat to only times of winter or hunger. The phrase not be used only is anachronistically late 20th century. Otherwise it appears to be self-contradictory, unless you're living mostly in times of winter and hunger. In any case, I don't think it's a big deal, but it certainly isn't a justification for vegetarianism, as good an idea as vegetarianism may be (but for others, not me!) John W. Redelfs wrote: After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: So exactly what does (paraphrasing from memory) the following mean: eat meat sparingly and only in the winter ? That is not what it says. It says, Eat meat sparingly and they should not be used only in times of winter or hunger. To me that clearly means that we should not limit our use of these things to winter or hunger. But that we are to eat meat sparingly at all times. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] = To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary. I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad. --Jack Handy = All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
At 13:23 11/12/2002 -0600, St Paul not Minnesota wrote: I don't eat meat with every meal and certainly not every day. What does sparingly mean? Till would maintain that this is really a typo and that sparringly is what is really meant. It's obvious from the view here that we are to wrestle with our dinners before we eat them. Till the clarifyer // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
At 11:37 11/12/2002 -0800, St Stacy wrote: Then I'm in trouble because I use lots of convenience foods because I have trouble cooking. I guess I'll have to tell the bishop that I'm working on substituting some soy products for meat dishes but I'll need to know where soy TV dinners, etc. exist. Rice and beans.. beans and rice ... nice onion. some olive oil creole seasoning ... a pepper . Till the getting hungrier // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
Marc wrote: Many people assume it means no caffeine, but if that were the case a good portion of OTC drugs that we take would be verboten. Is decaff okay? No. Clearly we're not to drink coffee or (green/black) tea. That's what it means, not no caffeine. We tend to get bogged down in unimportant details. You're absolutely right, Marc. I love the smell of coffee and I suppose it will always be a temptation for me. There is nothing wrong with being tempted so long as you don't yield to the temptation and partake of the forbidden substance. I'm hoping that the coffee bean will someday be pronounced clean. What do you think? Every time I walk down the isle of the grocery store and smell those flavored beans it puts my nose in a state of alert. What do you suppose the coffee bean is for? Surely it must serve some sort of purpose other than to tempt the weaker saints like me. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
After much pondering, Elmer L. Fairbank favored us with: Till would maintain that this is really a typo and that sparringly is what is really meant. It's obvious from the view here that we are to wrestle with our dinners before we eat them. Well, if you'd ever been to a rodeo, you know that wrestling with your meat is called bull dogging. Of course then the steer has to be butchered before you eat it. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
Oh, I think every herb was put here for mankind's use. I used to date a pharmacist, and she said that one of the first things they learn is that the difference between a drug and a poison is context (meaning dose and condition for which it's being prescribed, etc.). Heck, there's probably even a good purpose for marijuana -- I know Alberta farmers are growing a very low-THC version of it (legally) for use as hemp (it is, in fact, a species of hemp). It's interesting that Bolivian Indians chew coca leaves and it's only a mild stimulant -- it took Western chemistry to distill cocaine out of it and turn it into something truly dangerous. We have a dilemma in Canada with what to do about qat, a leaf that Somalis like to chew. It has both a calming and stimulating effect (I know that sounds contradictory), but it's not specifically mentioned on our schedule in the criminal code. Many Somalis import it to chew. But it takes about a baseball-sized wad and about 15 minutes of chewing this apparently very bitter stuff before you get any effect. I think the WoW is a law of obedience, when it boils right down to it, and I could see it changing some day. Perhaps we'll be asked to abstain from something else -- whatever it takes to make us different and set us apart as a peculiar people. Right now it's coffee, among other things, but I'm sure (although not so sure that I'd argue the point with any vigour) that the wine Jesus drank was alcoholic, given the times. And that's no big deal to me. In *our* dispensation we've been told to abstain, and we do. Because we are a peculiar people (no humour intended; I'm quoting straight, and seriously, from Paul). But if it ever changed I sure wouldn't lose my testimony over it. I am not really that tempted by coffee, but for about 18 months when I was a teenager I worked the weekend graveyard shift at a restaurant in a bowling alley right across the street from the Vacaville (CA) federal pen, where Charles Manson is being held. I used to drink tea (no milk, sugar) at night to keep me up. But I was inactive then. When I pulled up my socks, I gave it up and had no trouble doing so. At *very* occasional times, on long distance trips, I've taken caffeine pills to keep me up. Until my illness I was the main long-distance driver in my family (although now the kids are older, and I have some help, but my wife has problems driving for more than a few hundred kms at a stretch. She once fell asleep at the wheel and went off the road. Fortunately it was on a stretch of the Yellowhead between here and the Saskatchewan border with wide, gravelled shoulders and shallow ditches, so I was able to reach over and steer us back onto the highway). At times like that I considered it a drug just like aspirin. Speaking of which, many analgaesics, such as codeine, are administered with caffeine, partly to counteract the somnolent (sleepy) effect, and partly to speed delivery to the brain. Personally I think if I didn't live the WoW I'd try a glass of white wine every now and then. Other than that there's nothing that really holds any interest, let alone serious temptation for me. I've heard that the worst thing to give up is smoking. Janet Brigham Rands, who wrote an article on addiction in the Ensign, and who participates on Eyring-L (where we milked her for more information than she included in the article), says that nicotine is far more addictive than crack or heroin. My Dad gave up smoking when he joined the Church 27 or so years ago, but he says he still gets the occasional mild craving. It passes quickly enough that it's not a problem, but he sympathizes with people trying to quit. Paul Osborne wrote: Marc wrote: Many people assume it means no caffeine, but if that were the case a good portion of OTC drugs that we take would be verboten. Is decaff okay? No. Clearly we're not to drink coffee or (green/black) tea. That's what it means, not no caffeine. We tend to get bogged down in unimportant details. You're absolutely right, Marc. I love the smell of coffee and I suppose it will always be a temptation for me. There is nothing wrong with being tempted so long as you don't yield to the temptation and partake of the forbidden substance. I'm hoping that the coffee bean will someday be pronounced clean. What do you think? Every time I walk down the isle of the grocery store and smell those flavored beans it puts my nose in a state of alert. What do you suppose the coffee bean is for? Surely it must serve some sort of purpose other than to tempt the weaker saints like me. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
In one piece. If it's larger, cut it up first. John W. Redelfs wrote: After much pondering, Paul Osborne favored us with: I don't eat meat with every meal and certainly not every day. What does sparingly mean? It just means that you should never eat a steak that is over 1.5 lbs. --JWR -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
Reminds me of a joke whose punchline is, Well, sir and madam, you see, sometimes the bull wins... (We call 'em Rocky Mountain oysters around here, but steers don't have them anymore) John W. Redelfs wrote: After much pondering, Elmer L. Fairbank favored us with: Till would maintain that this is really a typo and that sparringly is what is really meant. It's obvious from the view here that we are to wrestle with our dinners before we eat them. Well, if you'd ever been to a rodeo, you know that wrestling with your meat is called bull dogging. Of course then the steer has to be butchered before you eat it. --JWR -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
Hmmm. It seems to me that the phrase should not be used only from that time period means that they should not be used EXCEPT. You mileage, as always, may vary. Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: So exactly what does (paraphrasing from memory) the following mean: eat meat sparingly and only in the winter ? That is not what it says. It says, Eat meat sparingly and they should not be used only in times of winter or hunger. To me that clearly means that we should not limit our use of these things to winter or hunger. But that we are to eat meat sparingly at all times. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
We all know the caffeine thing. (Actually, one of the funny little side comments from the movie Singles Ward is about how his girlfriend is less than enthusiastic about him because she found a couple of empty Dr. Pepper bottles in his car. Ya gotta see this movie if you haven't!) I clearly didn't mean that it meant that we should be vegetarians (given my signature line). However, I think that the meaning is quite clear, and that we would probably all do better, and receive more blessings, if we followed the WoW a little more closely than we do (myself included). And I do not need to rely on the prophets for something that, as far as I know, they have not commented upon. I believe that it is up to me to understand the best I can. And as far as I can tell, the veggies live the WoW better, on this topic, than does the average member I know (myself included). Jon - Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:28 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...) I think it means what it says, but the point is that modern-day prophets have defined what the WoW means for us. I'll give you an example. Many people assume it means no caffeine, but if that were the case a good portion of OTC drugs that we take would be verboten. Is decaff okay? No. Clearly we're not to drink coffee or (green/black) tea. That's what it means, not no caffeine. We tend to get bogged down in unimportant details. But in any case the phrase you quote doesn't mean vegetarianism, as a vegetarian will eat no meat, not just eat meat sparingly. Jon Spencer wrote: So exactly what does (paraphrasing from memory) the following mean: eat meat sparingly and only in the winter ? Jon, soon to be on his way for a quarter pounder with cheese Marc A. Schindler wrote: Again, I say, we should follow the commandments of the prophets, and they have told us to get involved in politics. I don't see that that implies necessarily that we'll get involved at the expense of the Gospel. Quite the opposite, since we're doing what we're told to do. It's just like the Word of Wisdom -- some people take it to extremes, trying to convert others to, say, vegetarianism on the supposed basis of the WoW. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
This veggie thing is an interesting topic. The primary problem with eating less meat is that it takes more time in preparation. My family has found that we feel better and are in general more healthy when we eat less meat. When we start (yet again) on this type of regimen, we do OK for 2 or 3 weeks, and then fall back to our old evil ways! But it is clear to me that when we take the WoW at its exact wording (as interpreted by me, of course :-) we do gain more blessings. This is a good prompting for me - we shall go back to eating less meat. it's also cheaper! I'll let you know when we are translated. Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: There's been a lot of discussion about this. My own opinion is that, given speech patterns of the day, the sentence is parsed better with a comma after used. In other words, it *does* restrict meat to only times of winter or hunger. The phrase not be used only is anachronistically late 20th century. Otherwise it appears to be self-contradictory, unless you're living mostly in times of winter and hunger. In any case, I don't think it's a big deal, but it certainly isn't a justification for vegetarianism, as good an idea as vegetarianism may be (but for others, not me!) John W. Redelfs wrote: After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: So exactly what does (paraphrasing from memory) the following mean: eat meat sparingly and only in the winter ? That is not what it says. It says, Eat meat sparingly and they should not be used only in times of winter or hunger. To me that clearly means that we should not limit our use of these things to winter or hunger. But that we are to eat meat sparingly at all times. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
Sounds like an interesting book. I'll get it. I thought a social Mormon was one who never went to church, used coffee and tea but was involved in cultural events. Stacy. At 07:23 AM 11/10/2002 +, you wrote: If Satan can't intimidate or bully us with physical trials, he'll often try to fool us with substitute issues and programs. He would like us to invest our time, talents, and energy in causes that are not the cause of Zion, in the hope they may ultimately replace our commitment to the gospel. Often these other concerns are valid and worthwhile. That is irrelevant. The deception comes in giving these concerns a higher priority in our lives than our gospel covenants and thus to prove unfaithful to our first love, who is Christ. Those who are fooled in this way usually feel the Church is not doing enough in the area of their pet concerns. They may become disenchanted with the program of the Church and begin to follow alternate voices. These members do not lack zeal; indeed, they are often strong enough to endure tremendous trials. But Satan has diverted their zeal to the defense of other causes instead of Zion, and they don't perceive that their shifting loyalty is really unfaithfulness. Those so deceived do not generally reject Christ; they just decide to interpret his will differently or to serve him in different ways or according to new standards and values, and their original commitments take a backseat to their new agenda. In essence, they change their spiritual compass headings. But the truth is that they couldn't be trusted to hold their original course and keep their original commitments. They didn't endure. (Stephen E. Robinson, Following Christ.) / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Social Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
If Satan can't intimidate or bully us with physical trials, he'll often try to fool us with substitute issues and programs. He would like us to invest our time, talents, and energy in causes that are not the cause of Zion, in the hope they may ultimately replace our commitment to the gospel. Often these other concerns are valid and worthwhile. That is irrelevant. The deception comes in giving these concerns a higher priority in our lives than our gospel covenants and thus to prove unfaithful to our first love, who is Christ. Those who are fooled in this way usually feel the Church is not doing enough in the area of their pet concerns. They may become disenchanted with the program of the Church and begin to follow alternate voices. These members do not lack zeal; indeed, they are often strong enough to endure tremendous trials. But Satan has diverted their zeal to the defense of other causes instead of Zion, and they don't perceive that their shifting loyalty is really unfaithfulness. Those so deceived do not generally reject Christ; they just decide to interpret his will differently or to serve him in different ways or according to new standards and values, and their original commitments take a backseat to their new agenda. In essence, they change their spiritual compass headings. But the truth is that they couldn't be trusted to hold their original course and keep their original commitments. They didn't endure. (Stephen E. Robinson, Following Christ.) / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
