RE: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-14 Thread Jim Cobabe

Paul Osborne wrote:
---
This is outdated counsel and no longer meets with the necessary needs 
and requirements of many saints in a changing world that places new 
demands on families. I see President Hinckley has been slowly 
superseding this counsel at a rate that is not too far behind the trend.
---

Paul, I cannot locate any general counsel from church leaders indicating 
that President Benson's directives about mothers staying home has been 
rescinded or superceded.  Can you find us an authoritative source as 
basis for your assertions?  A recent conference talk from President 
Hinckley would be convincing.

I am minded of one of Jesus' comments to the Jews about divorce, from 
the New Testament.  He said that because the Jews insisted on a 
provision for divorce, Moses gave them some kind of compromise to 
satisfy their unrighteous demands.  Nevertheless, there is no provision 
for divorce in the laws of God.  The only legitimate marriage contract 
is one that is eternally binding.

We can certainly follow this pattern in our own times with regard to our 
selective obedience to the counsel of general church leaders.  Whether 
or not we as a church accept and live by true principles is has no 
bearing on the truth of correct principles.  There will come a day of 
reckoning when our faithfulness will be measured.  Those who insist on 
watering down the principles of the gospel for their own convenience 
will come up short of the mark.

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RE: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-14 Thread Jim Cobabe

Stacy Smith wrote:
---
The implications are that people from the far East are better?
---

I implied no such thing, but since you asked, perhaps you could please 
instruct us on the subject of Far Eastern culture and marriage customs.  
Are their marriages better or worse than ours?  How and why?

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RE: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-14 Thread Stacy Smith
I don't know if they can just throw their wives away, abuse them, etc.  I 
suppose so, since it seems that I heard on 20/20 once that there are 
American pedofiles who just love the Far East for their lack of 
surveillance on the sexual activities of American men with practically 
children.  The only thing I can say for them is that they have learned to 
relax.

Stacy.

At 02:11 PM 09/14/2003 +, you wrote:


Stacy Smith wrote:
---
The implications are that people from the far East are better?
---
I implied no such thing, but since you asked, perhaps you could please
instruct us on the subject of Far Eastern culture and marriage customs.
Are their marriages better or worse than ours?  How and why?
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RE: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-14 Thread Stacy Smith
P.S.:  Sorry about that.  I forgot about the list charter.  Maybe 
mentioning that these guys merely exist is a violation.

Stacy.

At 02:11 PM 09/14/2003 +, you wrote:


Stacy Smith wrote:
---
The implications are that people from the far East are better?
---
I implied no such thing, but since you asked, perhaps you could please
instruct us on the subject of Far Eastern culture and marriage customs.
Are their marriages better or worse than ours?  How and why?
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Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-11 Thread Paul Osborne

On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 02:06:26 + Jim Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
 Perhaps we could conduct a survey of views on importance of 
 following 
 President Benson's counsel about mothers not working outside the 
 home.  
 Or perhaps we could find some statistics regarding women married in 
 the 
 temple and their current rate of divorce.  Would these be good 
 measures?


This is outdated counsel and no longer meets with the necessary needs and
requirements of many saints in a changing world that places new demands
on families. I see President Hinckley has been slowly superseding this
counsel at a rate that is not too far behind the trend. Many working men
can no longer provide professional wages for their families sustenance
although they perform honorable tasks that must be performed by someone
in our working society. Even the working jobs that once paid very well
are hardly enough to take care of a family let alone make the insurance
premiums for two cars in which the Church requires every family to have
in order to do your duty! 

Working woman is the wave that is upon us and the Church will have to
deal with it as it is now doing. The Church has no choice but to make
friendly allowance for working woman or enter into the United Order. 

Paradox is upon us! 

Paul O
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RE: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-11 Thread Stacy Smith
The implications are that people from the far East are better?

Stacy.

At 02:06 AM 09/11/2003 +, you wrote:


I wish I could understand why the contemporary western view is that our
women are so transcendingly enlightened.  Nothing could be further from
the truth.
Most contemporary western women have no regard for the correct
principles of the gospel as they pertain specifically to women.
Perhaps we could conduct a survey of views on importance of following
President Benson's counsel about mothers not working outside the home.
Or perhaps we could find some statistics regarding women married in the
temple and their current rate of divorce.  Would these be good measures?
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Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-10 Thread Paul Osborne

On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:32:31 -0400 Chet Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
 Since Joseph noted that Paul had been mistranslated -- what Paul 
 (not
 Paul Osborne) actually advised was that it wasn't correct for women 
 to
 RULE in church.  If you read the rest of Paul's letter, it's pretty
 obvious that men shouldn't RULE in church either.


Ha! I don't by that. The Jews and the early Christians were a strange
people altogether. There customs and habits were nothing like we are use
to. Woman were second class citizens too. The Egyptians and the Greeks
treated their woman better than the Jews ever did! When it comes to
marriage and woman's rights the Jews were pathetic. 

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-10 Thread George Cobabe
Paul, before you go through a tirade like that you really ought to
understand the subject.  I think that if you really take a look at the
subject you would find a completely different approach than the one you
suggest.

The relationship between a married couple has been used for centuries, and
for good reason, to suggest the proper relationship between Christ and his
followers.  I do not think that this would be the case if the marriage, and
the womans part in it, were so despicable as you suggest.

I am currently reading a book called Beloved Bridegoom by Donna B.
Nielsen.  It discusses this topic.  It has a sub-title of Finding Christ in
Ancient Jewish Marriage and Family Customs.  You might find this very
informative.

George


- Original Message -
From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 6:40 AM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class



 On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:32:31 -0400 Chet Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 writes:
  Since Joseph noted that Paul had been mistranslated -- what Paul
  (not
  Paul Osborne) actually advised was that it wasn't correct for women
  to
  RULE in church.  If you read the rest of Paul's letter, it's pretty
  obvious that men shouldn't RULE in church either.


 Ha! I don't by that. The Jews and the early Christians were a strange
 people altogether. There customs and habits were nothing like we are use
 to. Woman were second class citizens too. The Egyptians and the Greeks
 treated their woman better than the Jews ever did! When it comes to
 marriage and woman's rights the Jews were pathetic.

 Paul O
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 
 The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
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Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-10 Thread Paul Osborne

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 06:55:36 -0600 George Cobabe
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Paul, before you go through a tirade like that you really ought to


Well, I've looked at the subject and from what I have read about the Jews
they treated their woman like second class citizens. Don't the scriptures
bear that out? I've read a lot of material about the Egyptians and they
treated their woman descent with a lot more rights then the Jews ever
gave their woman. The ancient Jews were a cruel people, IMNSHO. 

What does Tag have to say?

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-10 Thread Stacy Smith
Well, I am, for one, angry that it seems a woman could never leave home 
until she was married.  This Biblical state of affairs caused a lot of 
conflict in my own life and made me bitter.  Even when society said I could 
leave home I tried several times and always ended up with a nervous 
breakdown.  Not only was I competing with the idea that I was handicapped 
but also I felt I could make no decision without asking my family.  In my 
opinion this led to inability to make proper decisions in life to the point 
where at age 45 I still feel like a girl of 13.

Stacy.

At 06:55 AM 09/10/2003 -0600, you wrote:

Paul, before you go through a tirade like that you really ought to
understand the subject.  I think that if you really take a look at the
subject you would find a completely different approach than the one you
suggest.
The relationship between a married couple has been used for centuries, and
for good reason, to suggest the proper relationship between Christ and his
followers.  I do not think that this would be the case if the marriage, and
the womans part in it, were so despicable as you suggest.
I am currently reading a book called Beloved Bridegoom by Donna B.
Nielsen.  It discusses this topic.  It has a sub-title of Finding Christ in
Ancient Jewish Marriage and Family Customs.  You might find this very
informative.
George

- Original Message -
From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 6:40 AM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

 On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:32:31 -0400 Chet Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 writes:
  Since Joseph noted that Paul had been mistranslated -- what Paul
  (not
  Paul Osborne) actually advised was that it wasn't correct for women
  to
  RULE in church.  If you read the rest of Paul's letter, it's pretty
  obvious that men shouldn't RULE in church either.


 Ha! I don't by that. The Jews and the early Christians were a strange
 people altogether. There customs and habits were nothing like we are use
 to. Woman were second class citizens too. The Egyptians and the Greeks
 treated their woman better than the Jews ever did! When it comes to
 marriage and woman's rights the Jews were pathetic.

 Paul O
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 
 The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
 Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
 Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!



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Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-10 Thread George Cobabe
I do not think that the scriptures bear that out at all, rather the
opposite.

I will admit, readilly, that the social customs of that time are different
from those of our time.  And it may be that a superficial look at the
practices may make them look unacceptable to us today.  But when we take
time to truly understand their situation we would find the kind of
relationship that would warrent the comparison with our desired relationship
with Christ.

George

- Original Message -
From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 7:24 AM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class



 On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 06:55:36 -0600 George Cobabe
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Paul, before you go through a tirade like that you really ought to


 Well, I've looked at the subject and from what I have read about the Jews
 they treated their woman like second class citizens. Don't the scriptures
 bear that out? I've read a lot of material about the Egyptians and they
 treated their woman descent with a lot more rights then the Jews ever
 gave their woman. The ancient Jews were a cruel people, IMNSHO.

 What does Tag have to say?

 Paul O
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 
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Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-10 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
John (BLT) and I once attended a presentation on Paul's Views on Women 
given by none other than our own (AWOL) Tom Valetta.  Tom has now been 
released as Mission President and should be back available for 
comment.  John??  It was a great presentation.   IIRC, he maintained that 
it was Greek influence that has degraded their societal position even into 
our own times.  But it would be much better to hear it from Tom.

Till



At 08:47 AM 9/10/2003 -0600, Sir George wrote:
I do not think that the scriptures bear that out at all, rather the
opposite.
I will admit, readilly, that the social customs of that time are different
from those of our time.  And it may be that a superficial look at the
practices may make them look unacceptable to us today.  But when we take
time to truly understand their situation we would find the kind of
relationship that would warrent the comparison with our desired relationship
with Christ.
George

- Original Message -
From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 7:24 AM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

 On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 06:55:36 -0600 George Cobabe
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Paul, before you go through a tirade like that you really ought to


 Well, I've looked at the subject and from what I have read about the Jews
 they treated their woman like second class citizens. Don't the scriptures
 bear that out? I've read a lot of material about the Egyptians and they
 treated their woman descent with a lot more rights then the Jews ever
 gave their woman. The ancient Jews were a cruel people, IMNSHO.

 What does Tag have to say?

 Paul O
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 
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RE: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-10 Thread Jim Cobabe

I wish I could understand why the contemporary western view is that our 
women are so transcendingly enlightened.  Nothing could be further from 
the truth.

Most contemporary western women have no regard for the correct 
principles of the gospel as they pertain specifically to women.  

Perhaps we could conduct a survey of views on importance of following 
President Benson's counsel about mothers not working outside the home.  
Or perhaps we could find some statistics regarding women married in the 
temple and their current rate of divorce.  Would these be good measures?

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Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-09 Thread Paul Osborne

On Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:09:57 GMT Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
 
 Stacy Smith:
 
 Are you suggesting that not all of Paul's guidance 
 should be taken as from the Lord on these matters?
 
 ___
 
 Of course not.  I think it is perfectly alright 
 for the sisters to speak at Church.
 
 Larry Jackson


Classic example of how Bible culture can be out of date! We move with the
times and the changing world of Mormonism. You gotta love it! :-)) 

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-09 Thread John W. Redelfs
Paul Osborne wrote:
 Are you suggesting that not all of Paul's guidance
 should be taken as from the Lord on these matters?

 ___

 Of course not.  I think it is perfectly alright
 for the sisters to speak at Church.

 Larry Jackson
Classic example of how Bible culture can be out of date! We move with the
times and the changing world of Mormonism. You gotta love it! :-))
Perhaps Paul was referring to such ordinances as blessing the Sacrament and 
blessing babies.  If so, his counsel is just as good today as it was 
then.  --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-09 Thread Chet Cox
Since Joseph noted that Paul had been mistranslated -- what Paul (not
Paul Osborne) actually advised was that it wasn't correct for women to
RULE in church.  If you read the rest of Paul's letter, it's pretty
obvious that men shouldn't RULE in church either.

*jeep! 
   --Chet 
 Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you
are doing the impossible.

On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 08:12:30 -0800 John W. Redelfs
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
 Perhaps Paul was referring to such ordinances as blessing the 
 Sacrament and 
 blessing babies.  If so, his counsel is just as good today as it was 
 
 then.  --JWR
 


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Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-08 Thread Stacy Smith
More to the point, those Scriptures in and of themselves speak nothing 
about those who have repented of fornication being all right to be 
fellowshipped.  Why not?

Stacy.

At 11:21 PM 09/07/2003 -0800, you wrote:

I am fascinated by Church members disagreeing with the scriptures.  This 
morning in Gospel Doctrine class we discussed these verses from 1 Cor. 
5:9-13.  Perhaps a half dozen people explained why Paul could not possibly 
mean what he obviously means, namely that in the Church we shouldn't 
associate with unrepentant fornicators.  Was Paul a self-righteous bigot, 
or what?

---
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the 
covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go 
out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is 
called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a 
railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye 
judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among 
yourselves that wicked person.
---

What other scriptures are there that members find difficult?  Some are 
ready for milk while others are ready for meat.  The scriptures are 
nothing if they are not meaty.

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
There is no place in this work for those who believe only
in the gospel of doom and gloom.  The gospel is good
news.  It is a message of triumph. --Gordon B. Hinckley
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
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Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-08 Thread Rick Mathis
At 11:21 PM 9/7/2003 -0800, The BLT wrote:
. . . in the Church we shouldn't associate with unrepentant 
fornicators.  Was Paul a self-righteous bigot, or what?
What did Jesus do?  Did he refuse to associate with sinners?  According to 
what we have in the New Testament, Paul definitely had his own set of 
issues, including bragging about correcting the President of the Church at 
that time.  He was a product of his culture and training.

Rick Mathis 

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Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-08 Thread Stacy Smith
Are you suggesting that not all of Paul's guidance should be taken as 
from the Lord on these matters?

Stacy.

At 07:34 AM 09/08/2003 -0700, you wrote:

At 11:21 PM 9/7/2003 -0800, The BLT wrote:
. . . in the Church we shouldn't associate with unrepentant 
fornicators.  Was Paul a self-righteous bigot, or what?
What did Jesus do?  Did he refuse to associate with sinners?  According to 
what we have in the New Testament, Paul definitely had his own set of 
issues, including bragging about correcting the President of the Church at 
that time.  He was a product of his culture and training.

Rick Mathis
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Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-08 Thread John W. Redelfs
Stacy Smith wrote:
More to the point, those Scriptures in and of themselves speak nothing 
about those who have repented of fornication being all right to be 
fellowshipped.  Why not?
Those who have repented of fornication are no longer fornicators.  --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-08 Thread John W. Redelfs
Rick Mathis wrote:
What did Jesus do?  Did he refuse to associate with sinners?  According to 
what we have in the New Testament, Paul definitely had his own set of 
issues, including bragging about correcting the President of the Church at 
that time.  He was a product of his culture and training.
Paul was specifically speaking of Church members or a man that is called a 
brother.  Jesus Christ did not associate with fornicators in the Church, 
nor did he ever suggest that unrepentant fornicators should be brought into 
the Church.  Obviously a missionary has to associate with sinners in order 
to do missionary work.  But only those who have faith unto repentance are 
invited into the Church through baptism.  That does not mean that we are to 
fellowship unrepentant fornicators in the Church.  In fact, unrepentant 
fornicators in the Church are to be excommunicated, and generally they are.

Our prophets teach that sexual sin is second only to murder.  Do faithful 
Church members associate with drug pushers or cocaine addicts?  Do we hang 
out in bars?  I don't think so.  Then why should we associate with 
unrepentant fornicators in the Church?

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
There is no place in this work for those who believe only
in the gospel of doom and gloom.  The gospel is good
news.  It is a message of triumph. --Gordon B. Hinckley
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR 

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Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-08 Thread Stacy Smith
Good point.  When Jesus was associating with these people they were 
definitely outsiders.  The general complaint was that he was associating 
with the lowest class of people.

Stacy.

At 08:25 AM 09/08/2003 -0800, you wrote:

Rick Mathis wrote:
What did Jesus do?  Did he refuse to associate with sinners?  According 
to what we have in the New Testament, Paul definitely had his own set of 
issues, including bragging about correcting the President of the Church 
at that time.  He was a product of his culture and training.
Paul was specifically speaking of Church members or a man that is called 
a brother.  Jesus Christ did not associate with fornicators in the 
Church, nor did he ever suggest that unrepentant fornicators should be 
brought into the Church.  Obviously a missionary has to associate with 
sinners in order to do missionary work.  But only those who have faith 
unto repentance are invited into the Church through baptism.  That does 
not mean that we are to fellowship unrepentant fornicators in the 
Church.  In fact, unrepentant fornicators in the Church are to be 
excommunicated, and generally they are.

Our prophets teach that sexual sin is second only to murder.  Do faithful 
Church members associate with drug pushers or cocaine addicts?  Do we hang 
out in bars?  I don't think so.  Then why should we associate with 
unrepentant fornicators in the Church?

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
There is no place in this work for those who believe only
in the gospel of doom and gloom.  The gospel is good
news.  It is a message of triumph. --Gordon B. Hinckley
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
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RE: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-08 Thread Larry Jackson

Stacy Smith:

Are you suggesting that not all of Paul's guidance 
should be taken as from the Lord on these matters?

___

Of course not.  I think it is perfectly alright 
for the sisters to speak at Church.

Larry Jackson




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Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-08 Thread hkpage
Okay...somewhat along these lines, I've got one for you.  A friend of mine
was married in the temple about 13 years ago.  They didn't have a smooth
road (whoever does?), and they were in and out of counseling (LDS Soc.
Serv.) but while she was pregnant with their 6th child, she realized that
he was drinking to excess (he'd been inactive for a while) and they
separated before that baby was born.  Their divorce proceedings took a long
time because they'd had a business in their names and that complicated
things.  During the divorce, she was very careful to not even appear as if
she were dating.  He, however, decided that it would be alright to not only
find a girlfriend, but to use money that was to have gone for court-ordered
child support to buy this floozy a ring and then shack up with her.  And
this was before the divorce was final! And while the bishop was aware of
the situation, no disciplinary action was taken.  It seems to me that he
was not only an unrepentant fornicator but an unrepentant adulterer, as
well.  So, the divorce was final about a year ago and he continued to live
with this floozy until February, when they finally got married.  Before
they married, he decided to go back to church and he was welcomed back with
open arms (and at that point, he was shacking up still) and then after they
were married, he was allowed to baptize the new wife.  He still is not very
faithful about paying child support, and she's having to work two jobs to
make ends meet.  It just blows my mind that no church discipline was
undertaken in this case!  The ex-wife, my friend, is understandably having
a very difficult time with this and her faith in her priesthood leaders has
been seriously shaken.  I'm trying to help her see that this may be a test
for her to see how she will react, but at the same time, I can understand
why she's having such a hard time with this.  Any suggestions as to how to
help her?

Heidi the fair


 [Original Message]
 From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: 9/8/2003 11:49:10 AM
 Subject: Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

 Rick Mathis wrote:
 What did Jesus do?  Did he refuse to associate with sinners?  According
to 
 what we have in the New Testament, Paul definitely had his own set of 
 issues, including bragging about correcting the President of the Church
at 
 that time.  He was a product of his culture and training.

 Paul was specifically speaking of Church members or a man that is called
a 
 brother.  Jesus Christ did not associate with fornicators in the Church, 
 nor did he ever suggest that unrepentant fornicators should be brought
into 
 the Church.  Obviously a missionary has to associate with sinners in
order 
 to do missionary work.  But only those who have faith unto repentance are 
 invited into the Church through baptism.  That does not mean that we are
to 
 fellowship unrepentant fornicators in the Church.  In fact, unrepentant 
 fornicators in the Church are to be excommunicated, and generally they
are.

 Our prophets teach that sexual sin is second only to murder.  Do faithful 
 Church members associate with drug pushers or cocaine addicts?  Do we
hang 
 out in bars?  I don't think so.  Then why should we associate with 
 unrepentant fornicators in the Church?


 John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ===
 There is no place in this work for those who believe only
 in the gospel of doom and gloom.  The gospel is good
 news.  It is a message of triumph. --Gordon B. Hinckley
 ===
 All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR 



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RE: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-08 Thread Larry Jackson

Heidi Page:

... I've got one for you.
Any suggestions as to how to help her?

___

[sick humor alert]
Well, according to this discussion, she was obviously 
living in sin since she was still with her husband, 
and she should go to her bishop and repent.
[end sick humor]

Now, disregard that.

I suspect she has already spoken with her bishop 
about her former husband's situation.  If she has 
not, she should.

If she has, she should speak with her stake president.

And then, hardest of all, she should leave it to them 
to do as they will.  At some point or other, supporting 
priesthood leaders becomes the hardest thing a person 
has to do.

She should also know that the bishop will be held 
accountable for things he knew and should have acted 
upon, but didn't.  That accounting is left up to the 
Lord, of course, with guidance from the bishop's 
priesthood leader, the stake president, who is also 
accountable to the Lord for what he does and does not do.

These kinds of things make my problems and challenges 
seem quite simple.

Larry Jackson




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Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-08 Thread Stacy Smith
I can very well understand tests of belief in local priesthood 
leaders.  Saying that, I'm still careful to realize these people are 
human.  I think a higher authority should be called on now such as a 
seventy to straighten this out if the locals won't do anything.

Stacy.

At 04:20 PM 09/08/2003 -0500, you wrote:

Okay...somewhat along these lines, I've got one for you.  A friend of mine
was married in the temple about 13 years ago.  They didn't have a smooth
road (whoever does?), and they were in and out of counseling (LDS Soc.
Serv.) but while she was pregnant with their 6th child, she realized that
he was drinking to excess (he'd been inactive for a while) and they
separated before that baby was born.  Their divorce proceedings took a long
time because they'd had a business in their names and that complicated
things.  During the divorce, she was very careful to not even appear as if
she were dating.  He, however, decided that it would be alright to not only
find a girlfriend, but to use money that was to have gone for court-ordered
child support to buy this floozy a ring and then shack up with her.  And
this was before the divorce was final! And while the bishop was aware of
the situation, no disciplinary action was taken.  It seems to me that he
was not only an unrepentant fornicator but an unrepentant adulterer, as
well.  So, the divorce was final about a year ago and he continued to live
with this floozy until February, when they finally got married.  Before
they married, he decided to go back to church and he was welcomed back with
open arms (and at that point, he was shacking up still) and then after they
were married, he was allowed to baptize the new wife.  He still is not very
faithful about paying child support, and she's having to work two jobs to
make ends meet.  It just blows my mind that no church discipline was
undertaken in this case!  The ex-wife, my friend, is understandably having
a very difficult time with this and her faith in her priesthood leaders has
been seriously shaken.  I'm trying to help her see that this may be a test
for her to see how she will react, but at the same time, I can understand
why she's having such a hard time with this.  Any suggestions as to how to
help her?
Heidi the fair

 [Original Message]
 From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: 9/8/2003 11:49:10 AM
 Subject: Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

 Rick Mathis wrote:
 What did Jesus do?  Did he refuse to associate with sinners?  According
to
 what we have in the New Testament, Paul definitely had his own set of
 issues, including bragging about correcting the President of the Church
at
 that time.  He was a product of his culture and training.

 Paul was specifically speaking of Church members or a man that is called
a
 brother.  Jesus Christ did not associate with fornicators in the Church,
 nor did he ever suggest that unrepentant fornicators should be brought
into
 the Church.  Obviously a missionary has to associate with sinners in
order
 to do missionary work.  But only those who have faith unto repentance are
 invited into the Church through baptism.  That does not mean that we are
to
 fellowship unrepentant fornicators in the Church.  In fact, unrepentant
 fornicators in the Church are to be excommunicated, and generally they
are.

 Our prophets teach that sexual sin is second only to murder.  Do faithful
 Church members associate with drug pushers or cocaine addicts?  Do we
hang
 out in bars?  I don't think so.  Then why should we associate with
 unrepentant fornicators in the Church?


 John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ===
 There is no place in this work for those who believe only
 in the gospel of doom and gloom.  The gospel is good
 news.  It is a message of triumph. --Gordon B. Hinckley
 ===
 All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR



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Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class

2003-09-08 Thread Jon Spencer
Certainly, someone living in sin is not allowed to be baptized.  We were
teaching a couple who were living together and had a child together.  They
were from south of the border and there was some economic reason they had
not married.  Once they married, they were allowed to be baptized (the very
next day).

I think that John is exactly right on this point.  But I think that much of
the bible is often taken out of context, or perhaps the context has been
removed.  I had a friend who was actively gay (and one sadly dies from
AIDS).  He certainly qualified as a fornicator.  I was his straight friend.
Even though I was not a member of the Church (nor of any church), it was not
wrong then and I do not believe that it would be wrong now.  I was a
positive influence in his life, and he was not a negative one in mine.

I believe that these things need to be dealt with on a case by case basis.
Someone who is actively engaged in sin and is promoting sin is someone that
I would actively avoid.  Perhaps that is what Paul meant by the term
fornicators.  One way to find out is to ask in prayer.  That'll beat my
answer seven ways from Sunday!

Jon

- Original Message - 
From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class


 Rick Mathis wrote:
 What did Jesus do?  Did he refuse to associate with sinners?  According
to
 what we have in the New Testament, Paul definitely had his own set of
 issues, including bragging about correcting the President of the Church
at
 that time.  He was a product of his culture and training.

 Paul was specifically speaking of Church members or a man that is called
a
 brother.  Jesus Christ did not associate with fornicators in the Church,
 nor did he ever suggest that unrepentant fornicators should be brought
into
 the Church.  Obviously a missionary has to associate with sinners in order
 to do missionary work.  But only those who have faith unto repentance are
 invited into the Church through baptism.  That does not mean that we are
to
 fellowship unrepentant fornicators in the Church.  In fact, unrepentant
 fornicators in the Church are to be excommunicated, and generally they
are.

 Our prophets teach that sexual sin is second only to murder.  Do faithful
 Church members associate with drug pushers or cocaine addicts?  Do we hang
 out in bars?  I don't think so.  Then why should we associate with
 unrepentant fornicators in the Church?


 John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ===
 There is no place in this work for those who believe only
 in the gospel of doom and gloom.  The gospel is good
 news.  It is a message of triumph. --Gordon B. Hinckley
 ===
 All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR



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