Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-17 Thread Scott McGee

On Wed, 16 Oct 2002 15:10:10 -0600, Marc A. Schindler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
 Hooking his fingers under his armpits and swelling out. Well, I'm only
 48 and
 have 1 grand-daughter and another grandchild on the way.

I am only 44 and will have a grandchild early next year. Sadly, the
mother, my oldest daughter, is just 18 and is not married. More sadly,
she has become angry at me for reasons I do not understand and actually
told me that she doesn't want anything to do with me, nor does she want
me to have anything to do with my grandchild when it is born. (All this
while calling me to ask me to do something for her!)

 For a while, in fact,
 until my own grandmother passed away this last April, my grand-daughter
 had a
 great-great-grandmother (they met on several occasions and we have
 pictures of
 them together, of course).

My sister's oldest daughter had a daughter while my grandfather was still
alive. He took great pride in telling people this child's grandmother is
my granddaugter!

All of my children got to know their great-grandfather well. I am very
pleased by that because I met my great-grandfather, but never got to know
him. I wish I had.

Scott
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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-17 Thread Scott McGee

I wrote:
 I am only 44 and will have a grandchild early next year. Sadly, the
 mother, my oldest daughter, is just 18 and is not married. More sadly,
 she has become angry at me for reasons I do not understand and actually
 told me that she doesn't want anything to do with me, nor does she want
 me to have anything to do with my grandchild when it is born. (All this
 while calling me to ask me to do something for her!)

I should have noted that the more sadly part was personal. It is
actually a much greater saddness that she will have a child out of
wedlock, something with much greater implications in both this life and
the next than her feelings about me. Saddest of all, perhaps is the fact
that she has totally rejected the church and Christianity in general and
adopted some sort of secular psudo-wiccan philosophy. I have, in the
past, spoken with her at length and testified strongly of my knowledge of
the truthfulness of the Church so I know that she know my feelings on the
matter.

I expect that after her child is born in March she will grow up rapidly.
Her cousin (my sister's daugther mentioned in the previous post) did so
much to her mother's surprise (though she did marry before the birth of
the child, thankfully) and my sister has a good relationship with her
daughter even though it was similar to my relationship with my daughter
before the child was born. I can only hope for the same thing in my case.

Scott
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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread John W. Redelfs

After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote:
I'm no Nixon fan, but actually his goal was to get us OUT of Vietnam 
(which LBJ got us heavily into) with Honor.

I don't believe this.  Do you have evidence?  The man was the biggest liar 
that ever sat in the White House until Clinton.  So how are we even 
supposed to know that his goals were?  I think his goal was to go down in 
history.  In his impossibly vast ego he worried more about his legacy than 
any other president.  Or so it seems to me.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
It may be, for instance, that nothing except the power of
faith and the authority of the priesthood can save
individuals and congregations from the atomic holocausts
that surely shall be.  --Bruce R. McConkie
===
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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread John W. Redelfs

After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote:
Yes, our nation tends to concentrate on wars that affect us. Yes, oil is
a consideration because people like you and me enjoy our cars and
electricity.  However, blaming us for Africa's problems is wrong. Even
with our vast resources, we don't have limitless resources. We have gone
into a few African nations before to help. Remember Sudan? Just how were
we to stop a genocide war in Rwanda?

In my view, you are just explaining why our foreign and military policies 
are immoral.  You aren't explaining how they are moral. Or if you are, it 
is escaping me.  This country is the largest free trade block on earth. If 
there is any nation that could be self-sufficient, it is this one.  We 
don't need to go about the earth killing whomever we please in order to 
protect our interests.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
It may be, for instance, that nothing except the power of
faith and the authority of the priesthood can save
individuals and congregations from the atomic holocausts
that surely shall be.  --Bruce R. McConkie
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread Scott McGee

On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 18:49:04 -0500, Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED]
said:
 Paul I think when Clinton became President of the US that made
 everything he
 did my business. I also feel that being president he had the
 responsibility
 to be a good example to me my children and especially my grandchildren
 Sandra
 
 
 I can't agree. What he did in the privacy of his bedroom or office chair
 is NOT our business. It's not our business to know about the sexual
 practices of the leaders of our country. 

I most streniously disagree with that. What he does in his bedroom (or
any other private place) is not our business SO LONG AS IT IS NOT
ILLEGAL. What he does in his office chair, office, or any other
government location most definately IS our business. If he engaged in
illegal sexual acts then it is our business. If he lied to congress
concerning a valid investigation, then it was not only our business, but
it became our responsibility to impeach him for it.

Scott
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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread John W. Redelfs

After careful consideration, Wayne and Sandra Riner wrote:
Well I have 16 and they are the light of my life, I know us southern girls
do get married young but look at the blessings{:  I`m only 2 years older
then you John.

You're making me jealous. grin  BTW Elder Riner was transferred about a 
week ago.  My family surely did enjoy him while he was here.  If the rest 
of your grandchildren are like him, you are one lucky grandmother.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
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than by a bad argument.  --Dallin Oaks
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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread Scott McGee

On Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:28:47 -0500, Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED]
said:
 Why would it be illegal for Clinton to have an affair in his office? For
 all we know his wife was there too! 

First off, it is against the laws of God and the laws (sadly unenforced)
of many states to commit adultery. If the president commits and illegal
act, it is the business of the people of this nation.

Second, just as I would be promptly fired from my job for having
adulterous sex in my office, so the Office of the President of the United
States is our's, not his, and should be treated with appropriate respect.
He should have been fired for that, which, in his job, would have been
impeachment. Simple.

Now, as to his wife. If I have sex with my wife in my office, I am still
pretty sure I would get fired. That alone should tell you that sexual
conduct is grossly inaporporiate in the workplace, and that ANY workplace
should be kept free of such things. As a representative of the people,
the President is responsible to demonstrate the BEST of the nation, not
the worst. If he had had sex with his wife in his office, he would still
have disgraced the nation and should have left office as a result.

Is this clear enough of a description of my feelings. I fear it is far
too graphic for the comfort of many on the list.

Scott

Lots of people do these things in odd
 places. Since when is having an affair illegal or since when is doing
 something sexual in the privacy of your office--behind closed doors,
 illegal? So what! It's his business. Lots of people do that kind of
 stuff. I don't understand why people are so interested in Clinton's
 sexual personal appetites and then go and read about it on the web. That
 is so sick. We should all stay out of his business. It's not for us to
 know. And, if you have a problem with it then I suggest you take it up
 with the Senate which has already made the ultimate legal ruling on the
 matter. Sorry, but your wrong.  :-)
 
 Paul O
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread Marc A. Schindler

I don't believe it was LBJ who got the US into Vietnam -- but rather JFK.

John W. Redelfs wrote:

 After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote:
 I'm no Nixon fan, but actually his goal was to get us OUT of Vietnam
 (which LBJ got us heavily into) with Honor.

 I don't believe this.  Do you have evidence?  The man was the biggest liar
 that ever sat in the White House until Clinton.  So how are we even
 supposed to know that his goals were?  I think his goal was to go down in
 history.  In his impossibly vast ego he worried more about his legacy than
 any other president.  Or so it seems to me.

 John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ===
 It may be, for instance, that nothing except the power of
 faith and the authority of the priesthood can save
 individuals and congregations from the atomic holocausts
 that surely shall be.  --Bruce R. McConkie
 ===
 All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

 /
 ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread Marc A. Schindler

Hooking his fingers under his armpits and swelling out. Well, I'm only 48 and
have 1 grand-daughter and another grandchild on the way. For a while, in fact,
until my own grandmother passed away this last April, my grand-daughter had a
great-great-grandmother (they met on several occasions and we have pictures of
them together, of course).

John W. Redelfs wrote:

 After careful consideration, Jon Spencer wrote:
 Ditto.  Except that I surely hope I have no grandchildren yet.  I'm old
 enough (54), but my oldest is 16, and he is most definitely NOT old enough!
 ---

 Well, I am 57 and have two married daughters.  Still no grandchildren. :(

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The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread Dan R Allen





John:
We seem to forget that only a generation ago we would not have elected a
divorced man, much less a man who is unfaithful to his wife.  Ronald Reagan

was the first President that was divorced.

Dan:
Didn't that divorce take place _many_ years before he was elected though?

John:
In my opinion the argument that a President's private life is nobody's
business is a wrong headed argument.  It is impossible to keep that private

life from spilling over into his public life.

After President Clinton's escapades with Monica Lewinsky, just how
seriously do you think other world leaders took him?  I'll bet they were
laughing up their sleeves.  And since representing our country is one of
the President's most important responsibilities, Clinton's private life was

very much our business.

Dan:
I agree with you here John, except that the other leaders were laughing up
their sleeves at us; mistresses are considered a perk of the position in
most other countries.

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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread Marc A. Schindler



John W. Redelfs wrote:

 After careful consideration, Marc A. Schindler wrote:
 UN peacekeeping forces are never in a country unless they've been invited in.

 Invited in by whom?  These nations aren't democracies.

By the two sides. The way it was originally designed, both sides of a conflict had
to invite peacekeeping forces in to help enforce ceasefires. Unfortunately it's
changed since then and usually these days the Security Council decided when and
where to send peacekeepers, and that just isn't what it was intended to do. You
have to have a genuine desire for peace on both sides or it just won't work. I
know that's only a partial answer to your question, but there you have it.

 So the people
 surely did not invite them.  And in many if not most cases the
 dictatorships involved are one that we ourselves have set up in power.
 Therefore, all we have to do is tell the friendly dictator, Invite us in,
 or we will call in your loans.  This invitation you speak of is a charade,
 a sham.

 John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread Dan R Allen





Marc:
I don't believe it was LBJ who got the US into Vietnam -- but rather JFK.

Dan:
Right. There were approximately 17,000 US troops in Vietnam by the end of
'63, mostly in either advisory or combat support roles.
But LBJ definitely escalated that war, first with the Gulf of Tonkin issue,
and then the introduction of using US troops in offensive actions. The US
had pretty much taken over the war from the ARVN by 1965. The number of US
troops in Vietnam was approximately 510,000 by the end of 1968.
Nixon started the withdrawal from Vietnam - 115,000 in April of 1970, and
an additional 150,000 by 1971.

John W. Redelfs wrote:

 After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote:
 I'm no Nixon fan, but actually his goal was to get us OUT of Vietnam
 (which LBJ got us heavily into) with Honor.

 I don't believe this.  Do you have evidence?  The man was the biggest
liar
 that ever sat in the White House until Clinton.  So how are we even
 supposed to know that his goals were?  I think his goal was to go down
in
 history.  In his impossibly vast ego he worried more about his legacy
than
 any other president.  Or so it seems to me.

 John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ===
 It may be, for instance, that nothing except the power of
 faith and the authority of the priesthood can save
 individuals and congregations from the atomic holocausts
 that surely shall be.  --Bruce R. McConkie
 ===
 All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR


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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's
employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread Paul Osborne

But that's not the real issue; the issue is that he stood before the
camera
and lied to us, then stood before a grand jury and lied to them about
that
affair. That's why he was impeached.


It was an evil investigation brought on by the Gadianton Media. And sorry
to say the people of this country wanted all the dirt because that is
what they enjoy. Sad and sorry.

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread Paul Osborne

Most of businesses in this country have policies against employees... 


The White HOUSE is also for the President to manage his own personal
affairs. That is where he lives. It seems that some people on this list
don't believe in the right of privacy but think they OWN the lives of
government leaders lock, stock, and barrel.

Well you don't. The Senate has spoken! 

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-16 Thread Marc A. Schindler



Dan R Allen wrote:

 Marc:
 I don't believe it was LBJ who got the US into Vietnam -- but rather JFK.

 Dan:
 Right. There were approximately 17,000 US troops in Vietnam by the end of
 '63, mostly in either advisory or combat support roles.
 But LBJ definitely escalated that war, first with the Gulf of Tonkin issue,

That was to get Congress behind him. It was his 9-11 if you will, with one
difference: at least 9-11 really happened.


 and then the introduction of using US troops in offensive actions. The US
 had pretty much taken over the war from the ARVN by 1965. The number of US
 troops in Vietnam was approximately 510,000 by the end of 1968.
 Nixon started the withdrawal from Vietnam - 115,000 in April of 1970, and
 an additional 150,000 by 1971.

 John W. Redelfs wrote:

  After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote:
  I'm no Nixon fan, but actually his goal was to get us OUT of Vietnam
  (which LBJ got us heavily into) with Honor.
 
  I don't believe this.  Do you have evidence?  The man was the biggest
 liar
  that ever sat in the White House until Clinton.  So how are we even
  supposed to know that his goals were?  I think his goal was to go down
 in
  history.  In his impossibly vast ego he worried more about his legacy
 than
  any other president.  Or so it seems to me.
 
  John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  ===
  It may be, for instance, that nothing except the power of
  faith and the authority of the priesthood can save
  individuals and congregations from the atomic holocausts
  that surely shall be.  --Bruce R. McConkie
  ===
  All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
 
 
 /

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 Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

 The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
 falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
 --Michelangelo Buonarroti

 Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
 author
 solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's
 employer,
 nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-15 Thread Paul Osborne

I just wish I could know whether or not any of our beloved national
leaders 
intentionally looked the other way while all this was coming down.


I have to believe that any one of our national leaders would have given
their own lives to prevent 911. (Clinton included).

I don't believe the conspiracy theories.

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-15 Thread Paul Osborne

We had PROOF that Clinton 
committed the felonies of perjury and obstruction of justice, but our 
Senate acquitted him anyway, making them just as guilty as he was.


FWIW-- I too would have lied under oath if I had been hounded over my
personal sex life. It's nobody's business. Good for Clinton for lying and
good for Abraham too. 

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-15 Thread Paul Osborne

After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote:
As for your claim that Bush is a Gadianton, just where is your proof?

Is proof needed?  It is just common sense.  The man in the street does
not 
start wars.  Men with wealth and power do.  Who has the wealth and
power 
today?  It is Bush and company.


Yes proof is needed, John. You have more or less called someone a
murderer and that is a heavy thing to say; we are all held accountable
for what we say. I was going to vote for Bush but I didn't get off my
lazy butt and get registered in time. 

Please prove to me that Bush is a Gadianton. I KNOW you cant do that. I
think it is your opinion and you are entitled to that. But--bear in mind
that many people in the church including on this list prayerfully studied
the issues and prayed to Heavenly Father about who they should vote for
as President of the United States. 

Is The Spirit a robber for inspiring thousands of LDS people to vote for
a robber? I see a contradiction in this matter, John. The prophet does
NOT support your theory. The prophet will glady shake hands with the
President and promote his genealogy and posterity to the third and fourth
generation. Bush is a descent man. I know it. And I know God lives too.

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-15 Thread John W. Redelfs

After careful consideration, Paul Osborne wrote:
FWIW-- I too would have lied under oath if I had been hounded over my 
personal sex life. It's nobody's business. Good for Clinton for lying and 
good for Abraham too.
---

Comparing Clinton with Abraham is quite a stretch.  --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-15 Thread Paul Osborne

After careful consideration, Paul Osborne wrote:
FWIW-- I too would have lied under oath if I had been hounded over my 
personal sex life. It's nobody's business. Good for Clinton for lying
and 
good for Abraham too.
---
 
Comparing Clinton with Abraham is quite a stretch.  --JWR


I wasn't comparing the men. I was comparing the principles involved. It
wasn't the business of the sex hungry murderous Egyptians to know that
Sarah was Abraham's wife so Abraham lied as he was told to do. Good for
him.

Likewise, it wasn't the business of the whole world to tear into
Clinton's personal sex habits, so he lied. Good for him. I would have
done the same. I personally wasn't interested in the pornographic garbage
the media published and I did not read about it on the web when the
report was published. 

That makes me pretty clean; huh?  I'm sooo good

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-15 Thread Wayne and Sandra Riner

Paul I think when Clinton became President of the US that made everything he
did my business. I also feel that being president he had the responsibility
to be a good example to me my children and especially my grandchildren
Sandra

 After careful consideration, Paul Osborne wrote:
 FWIW-- I too would have lied under oath if I had been hounded over my
 personal sex life. It's nobody's business. Good for Clinton for lying
 and
 good for Abraham too.
 ---
 
 Comparing Clinton with Abraham is quite a stretch.  --JWR


 I wasn't comparing the men. I was comparing the principles involved. It
 wasn't the business of the sex hungry murderous Egyptians to know that
 Sarah was Abraham's wife so Abraham lied as he was told to do. Good for
 him.

 Likewise, it wasn't the business of the whole world to tear into
 Clinton's personal sex habits, so he lied. Good for him. I would have
 done the same. I personally wasn't interested in the pornographic garbage
 the media published and I did not read about it on the web when the
 report was published.

 That makes me pretty clean; huh?  I'm sooo good

 Paul O
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-15 Thread Paul Osborne

Paul I think when Clinton became President of the US that made
everything he
did my business. I also feel that being president he had the
responsibility
to be a good example to me my children and especially my grandchildren
Sandra


I can't agree. What he did in the privacy of his bedroom or office chair
is NOT our business. It's not our business to know about the sexual
practices of the leaders of our country. We do not OWN them. They have a
job to do and they get paid to do it. Likewise, your company and boss
have no right to question you about your sexual acts and if they were to
publish stuff you would probably sew them. Its none of their business.
And, just because a man is elected President does not mean he has to put
his naked body on the table for everyone to gawk at. That is so sick!

No man has to choose the moral highroad just because they are President
and open their bedroom doors for the world to see. Neither can we impose
our values on them. President Clinton had a job to do and he was paid to
get it done. Unfortunately people insisted that they know all about his
sex habits. gross 

We elect our officials based on what we know about them before hand. That
doesn't mean after they are elected we can strip them of their clothes
and shame them in front of the whole world. President Clinton made
mistakes--that's true. But so does everyone. And that includes young men
who are preparing to go on missions until the new bar is enforced.

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-14 Thread Jon Spencer

Ad hominem is an odd thing to put in here, and it is put in incorrectly, I
might add.

But it appears to me that you chose to let things go until they get out of
hand, assuring us that they will not.  I chose to support the view that they
are already out of hand and will get much worse.

Saddam's character has been clearly shown in both his personal (child
molestation), his internal (killing MILLIONS of innocent people, 150,000+ by
WOMM) and his external (Iran, Kuwait, US, others) activities.

It's a judgment call.  We have made different judgments.  It is our
responsibility to handle things in the temporal world, to protect the
innocent, wherever they may be.

You appear to focus on Saddam.  I chose to focus on his millions of victims.

We just have different points of view.  Neither of us can predict which
course of action will have the most negative consequences, or the most
positive.  However,  from my perspective, the opportunities for a good
outcome are far greater if we chose to protect both ourselves and others.
The possibilities from this vantage point are (1) a freer Iraq, far fewer
people killed in the next 5 years, and (3) elimination of the very viable
threat to not only the US, but the entire world.

Al Quaeda will do whatever it wants to do, regardless of what we do, unless
what we do is to (1) remove their state sponsors and (2) track them down.
(1) says that we must remove the Taliban from Afghanistan first [done], take
out Saddam next [in process], and then see what else must be done.

You cannot expect to enjoy your freedoms, when there are others, quite well
motivated by Satan as well as by the natural man, who see YOU as both (1) a
threat to their plans to control people, and (2) a target.

I think that there are many individual statements in this post that you
would concur with, as well as statements by me that you may think are
mischaracterizations of your position.  I understand that you simply chose
to interpret the world in a different manner.

The purpose of this post is to try to state from a high level what my
perspective is.

Jon

- Original Message -
From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted


First of all, I do not oppose the removal of Saddam Hussein from power --
he's
every bit the tyrant that people say he is. What I oppose is a foreign
country, a
superpower who think they have a mandate to police the world, deciding whom
to
take out and who to leave in charge (if Hussein, why not al-Assad and
Mussharaf,
as I keep asking).

Secondly, the comments about Bush were *in response* to your ad hominem
attack on
Saddam. Again, the point is, I'm sure what you say about Saddam is right.
But
that's not the point. It's what should be done about it that's the point.

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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-14 Thread John W. Redelfs

After careful consideration, Marc A. Schindler wrote:
Funny, but that's what I believe, too. (Well, that he's of our race, 
anyway, and
I think he's *trying* to be decent, he's just in over his head and is a
figurehead for more sinister forces [goshdarnit, I'm beginning to sound 
more and
more like John]).

The more blatant the evidence becomes, the harder it is to deny.  --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-14 Thread Marc A. Schindler

ad hominem is not out of place. You don't plan your foreign policy based on
what a stinker some foreign head of government/state is. You'd have to invade
Canada and Britain if that were the case

Jon Spencer wrote:

 Ad hominem is an odd thing to put in here, and it is put in incorrectly, I
 might add.

 But it appears to me that you chose to let things go until they get out of
 hand, assuring us that they will not.  I chose to support the view that they
 are already out of hand and will get much worse.

 Saddam's character has been clearly shown in both his personal (child
 molestation), his internal (killing MILLIONS of innocent people, 150,000+ by
 WOMM) and his external (Iran, Kuwait, US, others) activities.

 It's a judgment call.  We have made different judgments.  It is our
 responsibility to handle things in the temporal world, to protect the
 innocent, wherever they may be.

 You appear to focus on Saddam.  I chose to focus on his millions of victims.

 We just have different points of view.  Neither of us can predict which
 course of action will have the most negative consequences, or the most
 positive.  However,  from my perspective, the opportunities for a good
 outcome are far greater if we chose to protect both ourselves and others.
 The possibilities from this vantage point are (1) a freer Iraq, far fewer
 people killed in the next 5 years, and (3) elimination of the very viable
 threat to not only the US, but the entire world.

 Al Quaeda will do whatever it wants to do, regardless of what we do, unless
 what we do is to (1) remove their state sponsors and (2) track them down.
 (1) says that we must remove the Taliban from Afghanistan first [done], take
 out Saddam next [in process], and then see what else must be done.

 You cannot expect to enjoy your freedoms, when there are others, quite well
 motivated by Satan as well as by the natural man, who see YOU as both (1) a
 threat to their plans to control people, and (2) a target.

 I think that there are many individual statements in this post that you
 would concur with, as well as statements by me that you may think are
 mischaracterizations of your position.  I understand that you simply chose
 to interpret the world in a different manner.

 The purpose of this post is to try to state from a high level what my
 perspective is.

 Jon

 - Original Message -
 From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 2:23 PM
 Subject: Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

 First of all, I do not oppose the removal of Saddam Hussein from power --
 he's
 every bit the tyrant that people say he is. What I oppose is a foreign
 country, a
 superpower who think they have a mandate to police the world, deciding whom
 to
 take out and who to leave in charge (if Hussein, why not al-Assad and
 Mussharaf,
 as I keep asking).

 Secondly, the comments about Bush were *in response* to your ad hominem
 attack on
 Saddam. Again, the point is, I'm sure what you say about Saddam is right.
 But
 that's not the point. It's what should be done about it that's the point.

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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-14 Thread Marc A. Schindler

I for one would appreciate the research. I may come off sounding like an egghead,
but I'm not the scriptorian half of you are. But I do have a suspicion I know why
all the stories end the way they do, but I'll wait for the results of someone's
research before I venture forth with my idea.

Jon Spencer wrote:

 John W. Redelfs wrote:
  The only time the Nephites pursued the Gadiantons beyond their own borders
  they were militarily defeated.  National defense is justified.  National
  offense is not. --JWR

 I think that this is an assumption on your part, the assumption being that
 the mountains in which the Gadiantons were being pursued (rather
 ineffectually, as I recall) belonged to the Nephites, and that they never
 pursued them beyond their own borders (which I think is incorrect).

 One of us might actually search for this info some time.

 Jon

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-14 Thread Paul Osborne

We have no right to say evil things about a person, without strong
evidence. GWBush is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.
However, he has not ever shown himself to be an evil man, which is what
a
Gadianton is.


I agree. And, when was the last time our beloved prophet went to the
white house to shake hands with a Gadianton murderer? That would really
shake my testimony if...

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-14 Thread Paul Osborne

As for your claim that Bush is a Gadianton, just where is your proof? 


There is no proof. The President is a descent man. I'm absolutely sure of
it.

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-14 Thread John W. Redelfs

After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote:
Or are you just reading that into such events? Were the Nephites wicked
for trying to destroy the Gadiantons? Or were they just not strong enough
to accomplish it? Perhaps the Nephites were more righteous when they
allowed the Gadiantons to grow in power among the Nephites? Let's not
misquote the BoM on these things.

I haven't been quoting the Book of Mormon.  Rather I have been trying to 
teach the principles that I have learned from searching it.  The Gadianton 
Robbers were a domestic problem, not an invasion or attack by a foreign 
power.  Al-Qaeda is a domestic problem, not the innocent people of Iraq.

The Gadiantons were a clear and present danger. The Nephites did all
within their power to stop them. Just because they were unable, does not
mean their efforts were wrong.

Your are writing as if the Nephites were virtuous in their war against 
Gadianton Robbers.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  It was 
Nephite pride stemming from great abundance that created the atmosphere in 
which the Gadiantons could flourish.  If they had not been wicked, the 
Gadiantons could never have gotten hold of the government in the first 
place.  It is the same with us.

The Book of Mormon teaches that there are Gadianton Robbers in every 
nation, but they only become powerful when the people become proud and 
worship their own wealth more than God.  It is only when a nation becomes 
willing to kill for money.  And that is exactly what we will be doing in 
Iraq if we fight them.  We will be killing for money, in this case, Middle 
Eastern oil.

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
It may be, for instance, that nothing except the power of
faith and the authority of the priesthood can save
individuals and congregations from the atomic holocausts
that surely shall be.  --Bruce R. McConkie
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-14 Thread John W. Redelfs

After careful consideration, Gary Smith wrote:
As for your claim that Bush is a Gadianton, just where is your proof?

Is proof needed?  It is just common sense.  The man in the street does not 
start wars.  Men with wealth and power do.  Who has the wealth and power 
today?  It is Bush and company.

Saddam is heavily engaged in terrorist activities, even paying off the 
families of suicide bombers. Where do you see Bush actively killing civilians?

Was Nixon actively killing civilians when he sent 60,000 American fighting 
men to Vietnam with no intentions of accomplishing anything?  How many 
innocent civilians died during the Persian Gulf War of George Bush, Sr?  A 
hundred thousand?  Two hundred thousand?  The rulers of the darkness of 
this world use war so that they can kill to get gain.  If we don't learn 
anything else in the Book of Mormon we should learn that.  Gadianton 
Robbers kill for money and power.  And that is what war is all about, 
making money shedding the blood of others.  Do you think the USA would be 
all worked up about the evil Hussein if it weren't for oil?  Why are we not 
equally worked up about the genocide that has been going on in Africa for a 
generation?  Could it be that we don't care if black people kill black 
people as long as they don't have any oil that we want to control?

Gadiantons have secret organizations of murder to get gain. Where is Bush' 
club? Yes, I know you are suspicious of the CFR and other groups, but I've 
yet to see conclusive evidence that they are for less liberty and more 
civilian annihilation.

Why must we have conclusive evidence to believe the scriptures?  And how 
could we get this evidence even if it exists? Is our House and Senate 
willing to convene an investigation into criminal dealings at the highest 
levels in our nation?  And if we don't investigate, how are we going to get 
evidence?  Even when we have evidence we don't do a dang thing about 
it.  We had the evidence with Nixon, yet we did not impeach him.  We didn't 
prosecute him for the multiple felonies that he committed.  We actually 
mourned his passing and flew our flag at half mast when he died, a flag he 
had desecrated far more than those hippies that sewed it onto the seat of 
their pants and burned it in the street.  We had PROOF that Clinton 
committed the felonies of perjury and obstruction of justice, but our 
Senate acquitted him anyway, making them just as guilty as he was.

You bemoan the lack of evidence.  We could get that evidence if we were 
willing to do it.  But we aren't.  These Gadianton Robbers, who worship 
money more than God, know that we will do nothing as long as they let us in 
on the take.  As long as we are fat and happy we aren't going to do 
anything about it.  And they know it.  They can do anything they want as 
long as we are not inconvenienced in the enjoyment of our pleasures.

Well, that is pretty short sighted.  Misbehavior has a way of coming back 
and biting.

If you make such a claim, please back it up. Otherwise, you are spouting 
off things that are not right.

I have spent the last nine years on these email lists backing it up with 
the scriptures and the writing of the seers.  Only a seer can determine 
these things because they are hidden in darkness.  President Benson was a 
seer for fifty years during which he was on the President's Cabinet for two 
full terms.  And this is what he taught.  Not because he was some kind of 
right-wing crackpot, but because he KNEW.  Those saints who ignored him 
will pay a price just as those saints have paid a price for not following 
prophetic counsel in Missouri.  A prophet cannot lead where the people will 
not follow.  They weren't willing to live the Law of Consecration in 
Missouri as Joseph had asked them to do.  And the saints in our more recent 
history refused to be mobilized by the alarms raised by President 
Benson.  Same thing.  Watch, and you will learn.

Tell me, doesn't it seem a little curious that Al-Qaeda was able to pull 
off their attack on 9-11 even though there were many in our nation who were 
forewarned?  We were caught with our pants down.  But the purpose of 
government is to see that we are not caught with our pants down.  Our 
government failed us.  But guess what, there is no great outcry against 
those who were guilty of this negligence.  I'll bet not one single FAA, 
FBI, CIA, or other government operative will lose his job or even be 
demoted for his negligence.  Is that just a coincidence?  No it is 
not.  Those who pulled off this attack planned it that way.

19 men died.  15 of them were Saudis.  There must have been others 
involved, but who?  If we ever find out, which is doubtful, I'll bet that 
they have all died in one way or another. Whoever planned 9-11 planned a 
way to get away with it.  They planned a way to do away with all witnesses 
that could incriminate them.  9-11 is going to remain as big a mystery as 
the assassination of JFK.

Anyway, what 

Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-13 Thread John W. Redelfs

After careful consideration, Jon Spencer wrote:
You have often railed against the Gadiantons in our midst.  Well, can't 
you see that
Saddam is one of them?  The Nephites constantly pursued the Gadiantons - 
they actively searched for them and tried to destroy them.  Were they 
wrong to do this?  Should they have just said They didn't get MY 
daughter, so it's none of my business!?

The only time the Nephites pursued the Gadiantons beyond their own borders 
they were militarily defeated.  National defense is justified.  National 
offense is not. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-13 Thread John W. Redelfs

After careful consideration, Jon Spencer wrote:
Do you understand my position?  OK, so you feel that Saddam is not a 
Gadianton, but that Bush and his controlling CFR are.  It doesn't make 
sense to me, but you have the right to your own thoughts.  But if, as you 
say, the Gospel can only prosper under freedom, it seems that we must 
constantly try to defeat the Gadiantons.  (Here - your response: Saying 
Saddam is a Gadianton doesn't make him one to which I respond No, that 
fact that he IS
one makes him one.  There, one round of emails taken care of.)

I agree that Saddam is a Gadianton.  He is a small one, and Bush is a big 
one.  Why should I sacrifice my only son to help one Gadianton stomp on 
another one?  If we eradicate Saddam, will we be better off?  Will 
anybody?  There are a hundred Saddams standing in line to replace every one 
that falls.   And we can't kill them all.

John W. Redelfs  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

It is an eternal principle that has existed with God from all
Eternity that that man who rises up to condemn others,
finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the
way while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly that
that man is in the high road to apostacy  (Ehat  Cook,
WORDS OF JOSEPH SMITH, p. 413)

All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-13 Thread Marc A. Schindler

First of all, I do not oppose the removal of Saddam Hussein from power -- he's
every bit the tyrant that people say he is. What I oppose is a foreign country, a
superpower who think they have a mandate to police the world, deciding whom to
take out and who to leave in charge (if Hussein, why not al-Assad and Mussharaf,
as I keep asking).

Secondly, the comments about Bush were *in response* to your ad hominem attack on
Saddam. Again, the point is, I'm sure what you say about Saddam is right. But
that's not the point. It's what should be done about it that's the point.

Jon Spencer wrote:

 I find it interesting that those who oppose taking out Saddam also feel
 offended when the truth is spoken about him, but feel no restraint when
 impugning with unbridled passion those with whom they disagree (e.g.,.
 President Bush).

 Please feel free to express these same sentiments to the parents of the
 children Saddam has abused.  And note that I did give these thoughts careful
 consideration.

 I can understand the stand you are taking with regard to dealing with Iraq.
 What I do not understand is why you think that Saddam's ruthless treatment
 of the people of Iraq, our brothers and sisters, should be tolerated, and
 why his threat to us and the rest of the world should be ignored.  You have

I have explained more than half a dozen times that there are greater threats to
western security in the region. NOT ONCE have I read a response to my question
about Pakistan. The onus is on you to defend your government's actions, not up to
me to defend the renunciation of war in general, and specifically a militaristic
approach to the problem. That defends itself -- MYOB.


 often railed against the Gadiantons in our midst.  Well, can't you see that
 Saddam is one of them?

He's not in our midst. Let's worry about the GR's in our midst. Let's start
with those who make and promote the use of armaments, for starters.

 The Nephites constantly pursued the Gadiantons -
 they actively searched for them and tried to destroy them.  Were they wrong
 to do this?  Should they have just said They didn't get MY daughter, so
 it's none of my business!?


They were only in the righty AFTER they were directly attacked, and attacked in
defence of their liberties, property and lives. You are not in that position. We
(America as a whole) are in the position of Assyria, having broken the covenant
of Zion as recorded in Ether. Again, I haven't read a SINGLE response to that,
although both John and I have pointed this out on numerous occasions. Are we
speaking past each other, I wonder?


 Do you understand my position?  OK, so you feel that Saddam is not a
 Gadianton, but that Bush and his controlling CFR are.

John and I differ in the details of who the GR's are. I think worrying about the
CFR is like worrying about the colour of the paint on the Titanic, so I do not
take quite his approach on this. But I find it very interesting that some of the
most conservative amongst us and some of the most so-called liberal amongst us
can agree that we *do* have Gadianton Robbers amongst us, and that the proposed
war against Iraq is a feint, a magician's trick, to divert our attention away
from what is happening to our liberties from Argentina and Colombia to the USA
and Canada.

  It doesn't make sense
 to me, but you have the right to your own thoughts.  But if, as you say, the
 Gospel can only prosper under freedom, it seems that we must constantly try
 to defeat the Gadiantons.  (Here - your response: Saying Saddam is a
 Gadianton doesn't make him one to which I respond No, that fact that he IS
 one makes him one.  There, one round of emails taken care of.)


We will not establish freedom by overthrowing Saddam Hussein. Did I post the
response from Dan Peterson here, a response to someone on another list who had
said that the Arabs are not interested in the Gospel? The very day he responded
to me he and his wife were having dinner with the Jordanian ambassador, a member
of the Q12, a 70, and their wives. The work is going forward, but God works
through Zion, not through Assyria. We need to get our nations back to Zion and
away from Assyria/Babylon.


 Jon

 John W. Redelfs wrote:

  After careful consideration, Jon Spencer wrote:
  Being that Saddam regularly has sex with young girls, I think that we can
  safely assume that he does not take his religion to heart.
 

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-13 Thread Paul Osborne

I agree that Saddam is a Gadianton.  He is a small one, and Bush is a
big 
one.  


Gadianton?

I cannot agree with this. I see no reason to suspect Bush as a mass
murderer. And if this is so; why must I suppose that hundreds of
thousands of conservative Latter-day Saints voted for him after careful
prayer and consideration as directed by the First Presidency. I'm sorry
John, but it doesn't add up in my book. If so, the Holy Ghost must be
giving bad advice to the people of our church. All is lost...

I think Bush is a descent guy but I didn't vote for him. I didn't even
vote.

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-13 Thread Marc A. Schindler



Paul Osborne wrote:

 I agree that Saddam is a Gadianton.  He is a small one, and Bush is a
 big
 one.

 Gadianton?

 I cannot agree with this. I see no reason to suspect Bush as a mass
 murderer. And if this is so; why must I suppose that hundreds of
 thousands of conservative Latter-day Saints voted for him after careful
 prayer and consideration as directed by the First Presidency. I'm sorry
 John, but it doesn't add up in my book. If so, the Holy Ghost must be
 giving bad advice to the people of our church. All is lost...


This is spiritual extortion. To assume that *your* political decision has the
backing of the HG implies that Democrats like President Faust, President Larsen
et al, don't have the backing of the HG. I'm sure that's not what you meant to
write.


 I think Bush is a descent guy but I didn't vote for him. I didn't even
 vote.


That's even worse, imo. It's throwing your freedom back in the faces of your
founding fathers.


 Paul O
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-13 Thread Paul Osborne

 I cannot agree with this. I see no reason to suspect Bush as a mass
 murderer. And if this is so; why must I suppose that hundreds of
 thousands of conservative Latter-day Saints voted for him after careful
 prayer and consideration as directed by the First Presidency. I'm sorry
 John, but it doesn't add up in my book. If so, the Holy Ghost must be
 giving bad advice to the people of our church. All is lost...


This is spiritual extortion. To assume that *your* political decision
has the
backing of the HG implies that Democrats like President Faust,
President Larsen
et al, don't have the backing of the HG. I'm sure that's not what you
meant to
write.



I didn't say anything about the Democrats or anything about those who
voted for them. I simply implied that I smell something rotten in Denmark
if hundreds of thousands of LDS people pray for the Spirit's help in
electing a mass murderer for President. I don't buy it. I am convinced
that President Bush is a descent man. And with that, I wonder how many
times the Holy Ghost has born solid witness to faithful LDS voters that
George Bush is a descent man...

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-13 Thread Paul Osborne

 I think Bush is a descent guy but I didn't vote for him. I didn't even
 vote.

 
That's even worse, imo. It's throwing your freedom back in the faces of
your
founding fathers.


I don't care.

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-13 Thread Steven Montgomery

At 05:45 PM 10/13/2002, you wrote:
  I cannot agree with this. I see no reason to suspect Bush as a mass
  murderer. And if this is so; why must I suppose that hundreds of
  thousands of conservative Latter-day Saints voted for him after careful
  prayer and consideration as directed by the First Presidency. I'm sorry
  John, but it doesn't add up in my book. If so, the Holy Ghost must be
  giving bad advice to the people of our church. All is lost...
 

 This is spiritual extortion. To assume that *your* political decision
has the
 backing of the HG implies that Democrats like President Faust,
President Larsen
 et al, don't have the backing of the HG. I'm sure that's not what you
meant to
 write.



I didn't say anything about the Democrats or anything about those who
voted for them. I simply implied that I smell something rotten in Denmark
if hundreds of thousands of LDS people pray for the Spirit's help in
electing a mass murderer for President. I don't buy it. I am convinced
that President Bush is a descent man. And with that, I wonder how many
times the Holy Ghost has born solid witness to faithful LDS voters that
George Bush is a descent man...

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

I believe that GWB is a descent man--descended, like we all are, from Adam 
grin.



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-13 Thread Steven Montgomery

At 05:59 PM 10/13/2002, you wrote:
At 05:45 PM 10/13/2002, you wrote:
  I cannot agree with this. I see no reason to suspect Bush as a mass
  murderer. And if this is so; why must I suppose that hundreds of
  thousands of conservative Latter-day Saints voted for him after careful
  prayer and consideration as directed by the First Presidency. I'm sorry
  John, but it doesn't add up in my book. If so, the Holy Ghost must be
  giving bad advice to the people of our church. All is lost...
 

 This is spiritual extortion. To assume that *your* political decision
has the
 backing of the HG implies that Democrats like President Faust,
President Larsen
 et al, don't have the backing of the HG. I'm sure that's not what you
meant to
 write.



I didn't say anything about the Democrats or anything about those who
voted for them. I simply implied that I smell something rotten in Denmark
if hundreds of thousands of LDS people pray for the Spirit's help in
electing a mass murderer for President. I don't buy it. I am convinced
that President Bush is a descent man. And with that, I wonder how many
times the Holy Ghost has born solid witness to faithful LDS voters that
George Bush is a descent man...

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

I believe that GWB is a descent man--descended, like we all are, from Adam 
grin.

But then again, I used to have a neighbor that had a de-scented 
skunk--maybe GWB has been de-scented. grin I doubt that however, as 
something about GWB stinks to high heaven.



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-13 Thread Marc A. Schindler

I understood what you wrote. I was merely pointing out the logical implication of
what you wrote.

Paul Osborne wrote:

  I cannot agree with this. I see no reason to suspect Bush as a mass
  murderer. And if this is so; why must I suppose that hundreds of
  thousands of conservative Latter-day Saints voted for him after careful
  prayer and consideration as directed by the First Presidency. I'm sorry
  John, but it doesn't add up in my book. If so, the Holy Ghost must be
  giving bad advice to the people of our church. All is lost...
 

 This is spiritual extortion. To assume that *your* political decision
 has the
 backing of the HG implies that Democrats like President Faust,
 President Larsen
 et al, don't have the backing of the HG. I'm sure that's not what you
 meant to
 write.

 I didn't say anything about the Democrats or anything about those who
 voted for them. I simply implied that I smell something rotten in Denmark
 if hundreds of thousands of LDS people pray for the Spirit's help in
 electing a mass murderer for President. I don't buy it. I am convinced
 that President Bush is a descent man. And with that, I wonder how many
 times the Holy Ghost has born solid witness to faithful LDS voters that
 George Bush is a descent man...

 Paul O
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-13 Thread Marc A. Schindler

Funny, but that's what I believe, too. (Well, that he's of our race, anyway, and
I think he's *trying* to be decent, he's just in over his head and is a
figurehead for more sinister forces [goshdarnit, I'm beginning to sound more and
more like John]).

Steven Montgomery wrote:

 At 05:45 PM 10/13/2002, you wrote:
   I cannot agree with this. I see no reason to suspect Bush as a mass
   murderer. And if this is so; why must I suppose that hundreds of
   thousands of conservative Latter-day Saints voted for him after careful
   prayer and consideration as directed by the First Presidency. I'm sorry
   John, but it doesn't add up in my book. If so, the Holy Ghost must be
   giving bad advice to the people of our church. All is lost...
  
 
  This is spiritual extortion. To assume that *your* political decision
 has the
  backing of the HG implies that Democrats like President Faust,
 President Larsen
  et al, don't have the backing of the HG. I'm sure that's not what you
 meant to
  write.
 
 
 
 I didn't say anything about the Democrats or anything about those who
 voted for them. I simply implied that I smell something rotten in Denmark
 if hundreds of thousands of LDS people pray for the Spirit's help in
 electing a mass murderer for President. I don't buy it. I am convinced
 that President Bush is a descent man. And with that, I wonder how many
 times the Holy Ghost has born solid witness to faithful LDS voters that
 George Bush is a descent man...
 
 Paul O
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 I believe that GWB is a descent man--descended, like we all are, from Adam
 grin.

 --
 Steven Montgomery
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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 ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-11 Thread vicgh25

Hindsight being what it is; if the circumstances of September 11th were known on 
September 9th and actions were taken against Afganistan and the terrorists on 
September 10th; I suspect alot of you would be yelling that this was a war of 
aggression and not self-defense.

Further, I suspect as President Bush said a few days ago, it will take a mushroom 
cloud over some U.S. city to take action against Sadam.

I guess an actual attack on the U.S. changes doves into hawks; or does it. Once a dove 
always a dove.







--- Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You have put the /unquote in the wrong place. Neither of the sources you =
refer
to used the word peacenik. The Church statement *also* clarifies that Eld=
er
Nelson condemned wars of aggression, and I think that's where the issue her=
e is:
would an attack on Iraq constitute a war of aggression, or a defensive war?=
 Elder
Nelson didn't say. It's my personal opinion that it would be a war of aggre=
ssion.

Gary Smith wrote:

 From today's WSJ Best of the Web comes the Church's official statement
 saying that peaceniks are misinterpreting Elder Nelson's General
 Conference talk:

 quote
 Meanwhile, the  Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
 http://www.lds.org/media2/letters/0,10599,1592-1,00.html  complains that
 some news outlets have misinterpreted a recent general conference
 address by Elder Russell M. Nelson. Nelson pointed to the example and
 teachings of the Savior as 'the pathway to peace on earth and good will
 among men,'  the church statement says. According to Salt Lake City's
 Deseret News  http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,410017992,00.html ,
 several news organizations took statements from the talk and cast them
 in the context of the current national debate on the issue of war in
 Iraq--presumably by peacenik scribes who wish the Mormons were on their
 side.
 /unquote

 K'aya K'ama,
 Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
 .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
 No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free.  -
 Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

 

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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-11 Thread Marc A. Schindler



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hindsight being what it is; if the circumstances of September 11th were known on 
September 9th and actions were taken against Afganistan and the terrorists on 
September 10th; I suspect alot of you would be yelling that this was a war of 
aggression and not self-defense.


That doesn't make much sense, given that the offenders were *U.S.* residents of 
*Saudi* background. What good would attacking Afghanistan have done at the time?


 Further, I suspect as President Bush said a few days ago, it will take a mushroom 
cloud over some U.S. city to take action against Sadam.

 I guess an actual attack on the U.S. changes doves into hawks; or does it. Once a 
dove always a dove.


Is that a question or a statement?

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling 
short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; 
its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer, nor those of 
any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-10 Thread Marc A. Schindler

You have put the /unquote in the wrong place. Neither of the sources you refer
to used the word peacenik. The Church statement *also* clarifies that Elder
Nelson condemned wars of aggression, and I think that's where the issue here is:
would an attack on Iraq constitute a war of aggression, or a defensive war? Elder
Nelson didn't say. It's my personal opinion that it would be a war of aggression.

Gary Smith wrote:

 From today's WSJ Best of the Web comes the Church's official statement
 saying that peaceniks are misinterpreting Elder Nelson's General
 Conference talk:

 quote
 Meanwhile, the  Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
 http://www.lds.org/media2/letters/0,10599,1592-1,00.html  complains that
 some news outlets have misinterpreted a recent general conference
 address by Elder Russell M. Nelson. Nelson pointed to the example and
 teachings of the Savior as 'the pathway to peace on earth and good will
 among men,'  the church statement says. According to Salt Lake City's
 Deseret News  http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,410017992,00.html ,
 several news organizations took statements from the talk and cast them
 in the context of the current national debate on the issue of war in
 Iraq--presumably by peacenik scribes who wish the Mormons were on their
 side.
 /unquote

 K'aya K'ama,
 Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
 .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
 No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free.  -
 Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

 

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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-10 Thread Paul Osborne

Regarding the current political environment:

At present, the apostles of Mormonism have no business making public
announcements about whether a specific war should be fought or not. Apart
from revelation and authorization from God, it simply is not the business
of the church to assume a responsibility they are not qualified to
undertake. The apostles are not privy to Top Secret intelligence and
can't necessarily determine whether a war is just or not. 

Now--if the Lord sees fit to have a revelation declared, seeing that God
knows everything, and it is the Lord's will to officially renounce a war
fought by the US government; that is another story. But, in such a case
there won't be any arguing from the church body whether the prophet said
yes or no. 

There is a general separation between church and state and that means the
state does not tell the church what to do and the church does not tell
the state what to do. The church doesn't get involved in politics. Church
buildings (including the Conference Center) are not to be used for making
public statements about the government's war making decisions. Elder
Nelson was not breaking that policy. He was simply proclaiming peace at
the pulpit. That is what prophets are suppose to do, but he was not
condemning a war with Iraq and it must NOT be construed as such! Only the
President of the Church can alter church policy on the spot and President
Hinkley remains dead silent on the Iraq issue.   

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson misquoted

2002-10-10 Thread Marc A. Schindler

Well put. BTW, is there anyone here on the list who DID think Elder Nelson was
making an official statement about Iraq? Or was there someone who felt that given
that there's not even an imminent danger from Iraq, no one can justify a war of
aggression against Iraq on religious grounds?

Paul Osborne wrote:

 Regarding the current political environment:

 At present, the apostles of Mormonism have no business making public
 announcements about whether a specific war should be fought or not. Apart
 from revelation and authorization from God, it simply is not the business
 of the church to assume a responsibility they are not qualified to
 undertake. The apostles are not privy to Top Secret intelligence and
 can't necessarily determine whether a war is just or not.

 Now--if the Lord sees fit to have a revelation declared, seeing that God
 knows everything, and it is the Lord's will to officially renounce a war
 fought by the US government; that is another story. But, in such a case
 there won't be any arguing from the church body whether the prophet said
 yes or no.

 There is a general separation between church and state and that means the
 state does not tell the church what to do and the church does not tell
 the state what to do. The church doesn't get involved in politics. Church
 buildings (including the Conference Center) are not to be used for making
 public statements about the government's war making decisions. Elder
 Nelson was not breaking that policy. He was simply proclaiming peace at
 the pulpit. That is what prophets are suppose to do, but he was not
 condemning a war with Iraq and it must NOT be construed as such! Only the
 President of the Church can alter church policy on the spot and President
 Hinkley remains dead silent on the Iraq issue.

 Paul O
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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