Re: [ZION] Hardwired for God?
That's the very conclusion I've come to. Stacy. At 11:37 PM 11/13/2002 -0700, you wrote: Steven Montgomery wrote: I agree with you regarding the basis for materialism. Marxist scientists have for decades attempted to establish a material basis for spiritual experiences, that is nothing new. However, that is not what Pratt was driving at. Pratt clearly states that there is a relationship between the brain and spiritual experiences but that we need to be careful not to draw conclusions without taking both the spiritual and material elements into consideration. Imo, the brain acts as sort of an interface, if you will, between body and spirit. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hardwired for God?
Ok, I'll take another weeks vacation at Moose Jaw then. Btw, is my vacation there fully transferable? ;-) -- Steven Montgomery At 08:36 PM 11/14/2002, you wrote: You are right and I am wrong (except on one minor point)-- on re-reading it, I see he bases his calculation on the Julian calendar, not the Gregorian calendar, which is what I assumed (since his conclusions are expressed in terms of the Gregorian calendar.: Here's a link that explains this in much more detail: http://www.stjohndc.org/what/9609ca1.htm // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hardwired for God?
Steven Montgomery wrote: Ok, I'll take another weeks vacation at Moose Jaw then. Btw, is my vacation there fully transferable? ;-) Sure. To Bawlf, Alberta, in the middle of the Palliser Triangle (a semi-desert). I'd stick with Moose Jaw if I were you... -- Steven Montgomery At 08:36 PM 11/14/2002, you wrote: You are right and I am wrong (except on one minor point)-- on re-reading it, I see he bases his calculation on the Julian calendar, not the Gregorian calendar, which is what I assumed (since his conclusions are expressed in terms of the Gregorian calendar.: Here's a link that explains this in much more detail: http://www.stjohndc.org/what/9609ca1.htm // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hardwired for God?
At 01:27 PM 11/15/2002, you wrote: Steven Montgomery wrote: Ok, I'll take another weeks vacation at Moose Jaw then. Btw, is my vacation there fully transferable? ;-) Sure. To Bawlf, Alberta, in the middle of the Palliser Triangle (a semi-desert). I'd stick with Moose Jaw if I were you... Shucks. I was hoping to unload it on our local tradio. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. --Steven W. Mosher // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hardwired for God?
At 11:37 PM 11/13/2002, Marc wrote: Speaking of the star of Bethlehem, I'm sure you have heard most of the theories as to what it might have been. What would be your reaction if you learned that it might actually be an astrological phenomenon, and that it didn't happen in 1 A.D.? -- Marc A. Schindler Actually Pratt discussed this possibility in an article which appears on the Griffith Observatory website (as well as other places, including Pratt's own website): http://www.griffithobs.org/IPSPlanPlatt.html The most likely date he gives is during Passover, 1 BC. I should mention that to the Jews (at least those not in apostasy) astrology as a method of predicting the future was blasphemous. However, they did believe that stars (and other celestial events) were signs of God's works. Genesis 1:14, for starters, states that these celestial objects and events are signs--to make known his will and purposes. A good overview of the different celestial (astrological) events regarding what might have been the Star of Bethlehem is available here: http://sciastro.net/portia/articles/thestar.htm -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Recall the new star that announced the birth at Bethlehem? It was in its precise orbit long before it so shone. We are likewise placed in human orbits to illuminate. Divine correlation functions not only in the cosmos but on this planet, too. After all, the Book of Mormon plates were not buried in Belgium, only to have Joseph Smith born centuries later in distant Bombay. (Elder Neal A. Maxwell, Conference Report, Saturday Morning, Oct 2002) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hardwired for God?
Mazzaroth. Job 38:32. -- Steven Montgomery At 12:11 PM 11/14/2002, Marc wrote: Actually ancients did not make a distinction between astrology and astronomy as we do -- the prohibition against astrology is being read back into the OT, which is anachronistic. Zodiac mosaics have been found on the floors of 1st century BC synagogues in Israel, and the zodiac (as in the Babylonian system of 12 houses) actually appears at one point in Job, although they don't use the English word. Anyone know what it's called? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Hardwired for God?
Marc A. Schindler wrote: --- Actually ancients did not make a distinction between astrology and astronomy as we do -- the prohibition against astrology is being read back into the OT, which is anachronistic. Zodiac mosaics have been found on the floors of 1st century BC synagogues in Israel, and the zodiac (as in the Babylonian system of 12 houses) actually appears at one point in Job, although they don't use the English word. Anyone know what it's called? --- Revisionist history? --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hardwired for God?
Very good! You'll have to start looking for a job at the base you'll be in Moose Jaw so long Steven Montgomery wrote: Mazzaroth. Job 38:32. -- Steven Montgomery At 12:11 PM 11/14/2002, Marc wrote: Actually ancients did not make a distinction between astrology and astronomy as we do -- the prohibition against astrology is being read back into the OT, which is anachronistic. Zodiac mosaics have been found on the floors of 1st century BC synagogues in Israel, and the zodiac (as in the Babylonian system of 12 houses) actually appears at one point in Job, although they don't use the English word. Anyone know what it's called? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hardwired for God?
You are right and I am wrong (except on one minor point)-- on re-reading it, I see he bases his calculation on the Julian calendar, not the Gregorian calendar, which is what I assumed (since his conclusions are expressed in terms of the Gregorian calendar.: Here's a link that explains this in much more detail: http://www.stjohndc.org/what/9609ca1.htm Another one that explains the history, but note that they *did* use a different calendar, so their January 6th was not our January 6th. Here's an excerpt: The fact that we follow a different calendar (almost all Orthodox still follow the Traditional Paschalion), from that followed by the world around us is good. It marks us out as a distinct and peculiar people, that kept the ways that are hard (Psalm ?). We have a practical advantage in keeping the Old Calendar in that we can avoid the noisy and crass commercialism that is secular Christmas, and usually, also that surrounding secular Easter. What I learned that was helpful was that while Augustine makes references to 25/12 as being Christmas, and he lived moe than 500 years before the split between the western and eastern churches. But it seems that the eastern churches had developed their liturgy differently than the western churches anyway, so both dates could have existed simultaneously, with 25/12 in the west in the Julian calendar at first, but before too long the Gregorian calendar, and 06/01 in the east on the Julian Calendar. The change in Russia, when it occurred, subtracted almost 2 weeks, which means Julian 06/01 was the same as Gregorian 25/12 -- and that was the assumption I was going on. But as I said, I see that he accounts for this difference. Steven Montgomery wrote: At 12:11 PM 11/14/2002, Marc wrote: The June 12, 2 BC conjunction in Virgo, moving into Leo, was the one I was thinking about, in fact, and I see that Pratt discusses this approvingly. His reading of why Eastern churches celebrate 06 January as the day of Christ's birth is laughable and shows an extreme ignorance of history. It was December 25th under the pre-Gregorian calendar by the time of the Renaissance, and Russia did not adopt the Gregorian calendar until after the Russian Revolution. The Glorious October Revolution actually happened in November, for instance. Guess you'll have to take that up with Jack Finegan, author of, _Handbook of Biblical Chronology_, as that's who Pratt uses as a footnote. Besides, it appears that you are wrong. Epiphany which means manifestation (as in God being made manifest through his birth into mortality), is celebrated by many churches but began with the Eastern Church on January 6th of the Julian Calendar. http://www.kencollins.com/holy-03.htm I wonder who's extremely ignorant of history now. ;-) -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Recall the new star that announced the birth at Bethlehem? It was in its precise orbit long before it so shone. We are likewise placed in human orbits to illuminate. Divine correlation functions not only in the cosmos but on this planet, too. After all, the Book of Mormon plates were not buried in Belgium, only to have Joseph Smith born centuries later in distant Bombay. (Elder Neal A. Maxwell, Conference Report, Saturday Morning, Oct 2002) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hardwired for God?
Jim Cobabe wrote: Marc A. Schindler wrote: --- Actually ancients did not make a distinction between astrology and astronomy as we do -- the prohibition against astrology is being read back into the OT, which is anachronistic. Zodiac mosaics have been found on the floors of 1st century BC synagogues in Israel, and the zodiac (as in the Babylonian system of 12 houses) actually appears at one point in Job, although they don't use the English word. Anyone know what it's called? --- Revisionist history? Sorry, Steven already won yet another week to his growing holiday in Moose Jaw. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hardwired for God?
At 06:41 PM 11/13/2002, Marc wrote: I read that. Be careful with John Pratt -- he's into some pretty scary stuff involving signs and tokens in his own semi-public ceremonies involving what he calls the Enoch calendar. Details available upon request. But more to the point, and staying away from personal attacks, he discusses a book that's making quite a splash (Why God Won't Go Away) but fails to note that while this book is popular -- it was mentioned on Indigo.ca's main page the last time I was there (Indigo is Canada's largest book chain) -- it has received poor reviews from scientists for its poor science. It's one thing to criticize a book for its conclusions, but if it misrepresents itself, that's a problem, and the poor reviews are, in my opinion, well-founded. Why? I won't get into the science per se, but the two guys who wrote it, while they have scientific bona fides, are a little out of their field when it comes to philosophy. They ironically try to show that there is a spiritual plane which exists in the physical world, a view that's known as reductionism, or rationalist materialism, and a philosophy we LDS would have a hard time with. It's the basis for atheism: that all so-called spirituality has a physical basis. My worry on behalf of Meridian is blow back when some of the nonsense Pratt's into backfire onto a very nice couple (the Proctors, who put out Meridian). Well, Pratt did say that none of the books he looked at, one of them being, _Why God Won't Go Away_, were worth the money he was going to spend on them. Besides, his article was not a book review. I agree with you regarding the basis for materialism. Marxist scientists have for decades attempted to establish a material basis for spiritual experiences, that is nothing new. However, that is not what Pratt was driving at. Pratt clearly states that there is a relationship between the brain and spiritual experiences but that we need to be careful not to draw conclusions without taking both the spiritual and material elements into consideration. Imo, the brain acts as sort of an interface, if you will, between body and spirit. Imo, Pratt is very much into the doctrine behind Moses 6: 63, that all things bear record of Christ. If it is true that all things bear record of Christ then it should not be surprising that astronomical and calendrical events might also bear testimony in some majestic way of the Savior of all mankind (See my sig file below). I look at Pratt's research in much the same manner as I do Avraham Gileadi's. Gileadi was a pathbreaker by exposing lay members of the Church to the learning of the Jews and how that learning can broaden and deepen ones understanding of scripture. Pratt does much the same thing in a different manner by exposing members of the Church to celestial and date events and how those can indeed bear record of Christ. I don't agree with all the conclusions that Gileadi makes and neither do I with Pratt, but I also don't throw out all of their good and valuable research as crackpot just because I have disagreements with various areas of their work. Besides, I don't base my testimony or doctrinal understanding on personalities, and you can be assured that If and when somebodies actions does become pretty scary, aside from Samuelson's wrong headed opinion of a harmless skit, that I'll distance myself completely from that particular personality. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Recall the new star that announced the birth at Bethlehem? It was in its precise orbit long before it so shone. We are likewise placed in human orbits to illuminate. Divine correlation functions not only in the cosmos but on this planet, too. After all, the Book of Mormon plates were not buried in Belgium, only to have Joseph Smith born centuries later in distant Bombay. (Elder Neal A. Maxwell, Conference Report, Saturday Morning, Oct 2002) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hardwired for God?
Steven Montgomery wrote: I agree with you regarding the basis for materialism. Marxist scientists have for decades attempted to establish a material basis for spiritual experiences, that is nothing new. However, that is not what Pratt was driving at. Pratt clearly states that there is a relationship between the brain and spiritual experiences but that we need to be careful not to draw conclusions without taking both the spiritual and material elements into consideration. Imo, the brain acts as sort of an interface, if you will, between body and spirit. That's fair enough. Perhaps I was quick to judge, but I just got the impression that he was trying to materialize the spirit somehow, sort of like those experiments where scientists have tried to weigh a soul by euthenizing animals on a scale. Er, results are, well, inconclusive. Can't get the durned things to sit still long enough... Imo, Pratt is very much into the doctrine behind Moses 6: 63, that all things bear record of Christ. Ah, yes, but only to the believer who has the witness of the Holy Ghost. If it is true that all things bear record of Christ then it should not be surprising that astronomical and calendrical events might also bear testimony in some majestic way of the Savior of all mankind (See my sig file below). I look at Pratt's research in much the same manner as I do Avraham Gileadi's. Gileadi was a pathbreaker by exposing lay members of the Church to the learning of the Jews and how that learning can broaden and deepen ones understanding of scripture. Pratt does much the same thing in a different manner by exposing members of the Church to celestial and date events and how those can indeed bear record of Christ. I don't agree with all the conclusions that Gileadi makes and neither do I with Pratt, but I also don't throw out all of their good and valuable research as crackpot just because I have disagreements with various areas of their work. Besides, I don't base my testimony or doctrinal understanding on personalities, and you can be assured that If and when somebodies actions does become pretty scary, aside from Samuelson's wrong headed opinion of a harmless skit, that I'll distance myself completely from that particular personality. Well, I still find his skit business (and Samuelson wasn't the only source for my skepticism) spooky. Making signs and tokens outside the public is going too far (if this is what indeed happened, and I'm not saying it did -- Samuelson and my other source both claimed to have seen something you would normally only see in the temple). Speaking of the star of Bethlehem, I'm sure you have heard most of the theories as to what it might have been. What would be your reaction if you learned that it might actually be an astrological phenomenon, and that it didn't happen in 1 A.D.? -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
