Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-26 Thread Grampa Bill
Paul Osborne wrote:


I was referring to Stake President and up. They have money and prestige.
There are plenty of talented yet poor High Priests who never get the call because they don't have money. Money is a prerequisite to those callings.


===
Grampa Bill responds:
   I know of one SP who was a mechanic until his business went bust 
just before his call, He then sold house trailers for a while but was 
terminated because of too few sales. After a period of unemployment he 
want to work as a machinist for the county.
   I know of another who was (and is) an electronic technician.
   As for the importance of being a High Priest, I submit the following 
from the Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson_

Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.604
The temple work for the fifty-six signers of the Declaration of 
Independence and other Founding Fathers has been done. All these 
appeared to Wilford Woodruff when he was president of the St. George 
Temple. President George Washington was ordained a high priest at that 
time. You will also be interested to know that, according to Wilford 
Woodruff's journal, John Wesley, Benjamin Franklin, and Christopher 
Columbus were also ordained high priests at that time.

   It is my understang that others of the founding fathers were 
ordained Elders as is common practice today when the dead receive their 
temple work. I'm not sure of the significance of these ordinations but 
thought I'd throw them out there.

Don't waste the atonement.
Sue Woodbury, Oct. 20, 2002

Love y'all,
Grampa Bill in Savannah

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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-26 Thread Paul Osborne
Grampa Bill responds:
I know of one SP who was a mechanic until his business went bust 
just before his call, He then sold house trailers for a while but was 
terminated because of too few sales. After a period of unemployment he 
want to work as a machinist for the county.
I know of another who was (and is) an electronic technician.


Gee wiz Grampa, that must have been a long long long time ago before the
unwritten rule was written.

;-)

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-24 Thread Marc A. Schindler


Paul Osborne wrote:


 And, yes, John gave me some good pointers. I've seen how John operates
 too and have watched him type letters to the list. I've seen his
 computer, chair, book shelves, and table. I can visualize him right now
 in my mind.


Having trouble sleeping, are we?
ducking with eyes open in two directions...

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-24 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 21:43 10/23/2002 -0500, Gary wrote:


The Brethren had comfortable lives because they earned a comfortable
life.



Not so sure I agree, Gary.  Reference Approaching Zion Chapters 4 and 
5.  Not so sure earned is the correct choice of terms here.

Till

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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-24 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 21:46 10/23/2002 -0500, St Paul wrote:

I will admit that I used
to annoyed about it in the past.


Till detects that it is still unresolved


But it is the Lord's church and he can
do whatever he wants, so I have come to accept it.



You're on the right track, though


but I'm sure he had sufficient for his means


Here's the key.





I'm working on it. :-)




Absolutely the best statement  yet.  With this, all things can be accomplished.



Till, who hopes he hasn't offended

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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-24 Thread Marc A. Schindler
When I lived in Seattle, when I was 14 I got my patriarchal blessing (this was in
the old Renton ward of the Seattle Stake -- there are now 2 or 3 stakes in the
region that old ward covered, which dates me!). The patriarch asked me if I
wouldn't please try to friendship his son, who was going inactive. I tried but we
didn't have much in common -- his favourite hobby was shooting sparrows with his
BB gun from his bedroom window. Ironically I was pretty good with a BB gun and a
pellet gun, although I never actually owned one. But my cousins had them, also
.22's. They lived on a farm in Saskatchewan and were used to shooting vermin
around the granaries, and they first taught me to shoot. They would put an old
ace of spades card or something like that on a clothesline, and we'd use it for
target practice. They never killed animals needlessly -- not even grasshoppers.
The hardest thing my older cousin Donnie (who's about 4 years older than me) had
to do was about when I was 9 or 10. A chick was born with its head on the front
of its thorax instead of on top, and would die of starvation or asphyxiation. My
uncle told Donnie to kill the chick to put it out of its misery, and I came along
out of curiosity and to lend moral support. We were both crying on the way back
-- Donnie whacked the poor critter against a fence post to kill it.

Paul Osborne wrote:

 Till, who hopes he hasn't offended

 Of course not. I'm the one around here that probably is the most
 offensive. When I was a kid I use to through rocks at beehives and shoot
 my bee bee gun at the neighbors windows. :-)

 Paul O
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-24 Thread Paul Osborne
Till, who hopes he hasn't offended


Of course not. I'm the one around here that probably is the most
offensive. When I was a kid I use to through rocks at beehives and shoot
my bee bee gun at the neighbors windows. :-)

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Paul Osborne
I was referring to Stake President and up. They have money and prestige.
There are plenty of talented yet poor High Priests who never get the call
because they don't have money. Money is a prerequisite to those callings.
I hope that it doesn't sound like I am faulting the Lord. I'm simply
pointing out how the Lord does business. He depends on money and if you
don't have it you won't get those high callings of Stake President and
up. That's the bottom line. It's always about money.

Paul O

---
On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 00:02:00 -0500 Gary Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 I have to disagree with Paul on this one. I know several high priests 
 who
 barely eke out a living. I've been one for 14 years, and was only a 
 Buck
 Sergeant in the Air Force when first called. I promise you, they 
 don't
 get the big bucks. 
 
 My current bishop works as the general carpenter for the YMCAs here. 
 To
 make ends meet, his wife also works (their kids are all big). And I 
 could
 give you many other examples, and not only here in Alabama, either.
 
 Yes, I think that the Lord has finances as a consideration for who 
 he
 calls to certain callings. Moreso, I think the Lord considers a 
 person's
 talents and capabilities for a certain calling, especially in a
 presidency. Just as the Lord is going to call a healthy brother to 
 be
 bishop, over one that is homebound; The brother who has developed 
 many
 talents is of much more use to the Lord in the work than one who has 
 not
 developed his talents. Such a brother is likely to have become 
 successful
 in business also.
 
 Next, the Lord uses people who work hard. Imagine a bishop who only 
 gives
 a couple hours a week to the calling. The ward would fall apart! The 
 Lord
 looks for hard workers, dependable people who he knows will 
 sacrifice the
 television programs and leisure time, in order to serve faithfully. 
 This
 type of person also happens to be the type who tends to succeed in
 business.
 
 Don't condemn the brethren simply because it seems the Lord (or the
 people) picks a lot of wealthy people. He does it because they ALSO 
 have
 shown other great gifts of service, wisdom, and faithfulness.


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RE: [ZION] High Priests have money -- not

2002-10-23 Thread Larry Jackson
Paul Osborne (replying to someone else):

Right. And your ALSO points out that the money is required 
in order to get those high callings of Stake President and up. 

___

I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to 
be called as a stake president.

I can further assure you that stake president is not a high 
calling.

And while I'm here, I would also add that high priest is not 
a higher office in the Melchizedek Priesthood, just a different 
office, with specialized (and temporary) responsibilities.

Larry Jackson
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RE: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Paul-
 The Lord will not call a poor man to be an apostle. Poor people
 are just not good enough for the job. You have to have money.

If I remember correctly, Elder Packer spent his professional life in the 
CES, a job practically guaranteed to keep you dressed in rags.

Stephen

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RE: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Jeffrey Ross
 -Original Message-
 From: Paul Osborne [mailto:osborne1962;juno.com] 

 Right. And your ALSO points out that the money is required 
 in order to get those high callings of Stake President and 
 up. Thank you for making my point, Gary.

My former stake president was a public school teacher and later an
administrator and my current stake president is in a similar income
bracket.  Both of them are most likely below the 50th percentile with
regard to income within the stake boundaries.

How can you justify statements like that, Paul?  The Lord will call whom
He will call, income notwithstanding.

--Jeff.

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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money -- not

2002-10-23 Thread Paul Osborne
I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to 
be called as a stake president.


I followed it for years in the Church News and have clearly seen that the
money guys get the callings. I can't deny those facts. The guys who get
called in third world countries are the merchants and they have money
too. It's one of those unwritten rules.
;-)


I can further assure you that stake president is not a high 
calling.



Well, he is the boss of my Elders Quroum President. And, I look up to him
too.


And while I'm here, I would also add that high priest is not 
a higher office in the Melchizedek Priesthood, just a different 
office, with specialized (and temporary) responsibilities.


Ok. Have a nice day. :-)

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Paul Osborne
My former stake president was a public school teacher and later an
administrator and my current stake president is in a similar income
bracket.  Both of them are most likely below the 50th percentile with
regard to income within the stake boundaries.

How can you justify statements like that, Paul?  The Lord will call whom
He will call, income notwithstanding.


That's really odd. But administrators make more money than everyone else
under the administration so he has the most money. I'm right and you're
wrong. Where do you live? 

Yes, the Lord calls whoever he wants but they always have money,
resources, and prestige. 

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread vicgh25
Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a rancher, as an 
apostle? 

To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles?

Its interesting that a carpenter ended up saving mankind.


Vic


--- Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Don't condemn the brethren simply because it seems the Lord (or the
people) picks a lot of wealthy people. He does it because they ALSO have
shown other great gifts of service, wisdom, and faithfulness.



Right. And your ALSO points out that the money is required in order to
get those high callings of Stake President and up. Thank you for making
my point, Gary.

The Lord will not call a poor man to be an apostle. Poor people are just
not good enough for the job. You have to have money.

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: [ZION] High Priests have money -- not

2002-10-23 Thread Larry Jackson
Paul Osborne:

I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to 
be called as a stake president.

I followed it for years in the Church News and have clearly seen 
that the money guys get the callings. I can't deny those facts. 
... It's one of those unwritten rules.  ;-)

___

Glad to note you have a sense of humor, since I have never seen 
any facts in the Church News that tell how much stake presidents 
get paid in their work.

I will agree that many do well.  The same skills of hard work, 
administrative experience, and leadership they have gained in 
Church callings serve to benefit them in their work, as well.

But not all of them are well-paid money guys.  I know several 
who served while living under the poverty level.

And we know what those unwritten rules are, because they are 
actually written down and posted at John's website.  :-)

Larry Jackson
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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Mark Gregson

 To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles?

Here are some of the former occupations of all the current apostles.  Neither 
President Hinckley nor President Packer could have become wealthy from their 
employment, so Paul's theory fails in those cases (granted, they may have made money 
from their books, investments, consulting fees, etc.).  All or almost all the Brethren 
have university degrees and several have multiple degrees.  None appear to have been 
mainly manual labourers.

President Hinckley: employee of the Church since completing his mission.

President Monson: general manager of Deseret Press. 

President Faust: attorney (lawyer).

President Packer: pilot during WWII, supervisor of Seminaries and Institutes of 
Religion.

Elder Perry: vice president and treasurer of department store chain in Boston.

Elder Haight: district and regional manager of large retail store chain, assistant to 
president of BYU.

Elder Maxwell: executive vice president of the University of Utah, Church commissioner 
of education.

Elder Nelson: Renowned surgeon and medical researcher.

Elder Oaks: nine years as president of BYU, and three years as Utah Supreme Court 
justice.

Elder Ballard: various business enterprises, including automotive, real estate and 
investments.

Elder Wirthlin: president of trade association in Utah.

Elder Scott: Worked 12 years developing military and private nuclear power reactors; 
subsequently consultant to nuclear power industry.

Elder Hales:  jet fighter pilot; was an executive with four major national companies.

Elder Holland: president of Brigham Young University.

Elder Eyring: president of Ricks College, 1971-77.

=  Mark Gregson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  =

   
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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Marc A. Schindler


Mark Gregson wrote:


  To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles?

 Here are some of the former occupations of all the current apostles.  Neither 
President Hinckley nor President Packer could have become wealthy from their 
employment, so Paul's theory fails in those cases (granted, they may have made money 
from their books, investments, consulting fees, etc.).  All or almost all the 
Brethren have university degrees and several have multiple degrees.  None appear to 
have been mainly manual labourers.

 President Hinckley: employee of the Church since completing his mission.


Specifically, most of his later Church career, professionally speaking, was spent in 
either journalism- or public affairs-related positions.


 President Monson: general manager of Deseret Press.


So does he report to Sister Dew now? (who's president and CEO of Deseret Book Co.) 
[just teasing. I know that Pres. Monson is no longer the GM of Deseret News]


 President Faust: attorney (lawyer).

 President Packer: pilot during WWII, supervisor of Seminaries and Institutes of 
Religion.

 Elder Perry: vice president and treasurer of department store chain in Boston.

 Elder Haight: district and regional manager of large retail store chain, assistant 
to president of BYU.

 Elder Maxwell: executive vice president of the University of Utah, Church 
commissioner of education.

 Elder Nelson: Renowned surgeon and medical researcher.

 Elder Oaks: nine years as president of BYU, and three years as Utah Supreme Court 
justice.

 Elder Ballard: various business enterprises, including automotive, real estate and 
investments.

 Elder Wirthlin: president of trade association in Utah.

 Elder Scott: Worked 12 years developing military and private nuclear power reactors; 
subsequently consultant to nuclear power industry.

 Elder Hales:  jet fighter pilot; was an executive with four major national companies.

 Elder Holland: president of Brigham Young University.

 Elder Eyring: president of Ricks College, 1971-77.

 =  Mark Gregson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  =

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst 
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– Pericles
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Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; 
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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread hkpage
Gee...it seems to me that President Hinckley worked for his entire
professional life for the Church Missionary Department (or some such like
that).  I'm pretty sure that one doesn't get rich working for the Church. 
I'm also sure that these brethren have been faithful in paying 100%
tithing, which opens the windows of heaven to pour out blessings on them. 
I am also sure that paying one's tithing makes one more conscious of where
the money is going and thus more careful of it, and more likely to save a
higher percentage of it.

Just a few thoughts...nothing more...
Heidi the fair


 [Original Message]
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Date: 10/23/2002 2:04:59 PM
 Subject: Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

 Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a
rancher, as an apostle? 
 
 To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the
apostles?
 
 Its interesting that a carpenter ended up saving mankind.
 
 
 Vic
 
 
 --- Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Don't condemn the brethren simply because it seems the Lord (or the
 people) picks a lot of wealthy people. He does it because they ALSO have
 shown other great gifts of service, wisdom, and faithfulness.
 
 
 
 Right. And your ALSO points out that the money is required in order to
 get those high callings of Stake President and up. Thank you for making
 my point, Gary.
 
 The Lord will not call a poor man to be an apostle. Poor people are just
 not good enough for the job. You have to have money.
 
 Paul O
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money -- not

2002-10-23 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Actually in the 3rd world a larger than proportional share of line authority
callings go to Church/CES employees.  And, as I loved to tease Grant Johnson (I
think that's his name -- the Book of Mormon Answerman who infuriated many LDS by
saying that only those soldiers who fought for the Allies in WWII were righteous)
by pointing out that Elder Uchtdorf used to be a Luftwaffe fighter pilot (mind
you, he was too young to have served during the war). He retired and became a
civilian pilot, for Lufthansa and several of its subsidiaries, iirc, and
eventually came to be the chief training pilot for Lufthansa (that was told to me
by the chief training pilot for Air New Zealand, who had by coincidence contacted
me via email once about something, and found out I was LDS -- he wasn't, but told
me this about Elder Uchtdorf, saying he was widely respected in the industry).

Paul Osborne wrote:

 I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to
 be called as a stake president.

 I followed it for years in the Church News and have clearly seen that the
 money guys get the callings. I can't deny those facts. The guys who get
 called in third world countries are the merchants and they have money
 too. It's one of those unwritten rules.
 ;-)

 I can further assure you that stake president is not a high
 calling.

 Well, he is the boss of my Elders Quroum President. And, I look up to him
 too.

 And while I'm here, I would also add that high priest is not
 a higher office in the Melchizedek Priesthood, just a different
 office, with specialized (and temporary) responsibilities.

 Ok. Have a nice day. :-)

 Paul O
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Paul Osborne
Here are some of the former occupations of all the current apostles. 
Neither President Hinckley nor President Packer could have become
wealthy from their employment, so Paul's theory fails in those cases
(granted, they may have made money from their books, investments,
consulting fees, etc.).  All or almost all the Brethren have university
degrees and several have multiple degrees.  None appear to have been
mainly manual labourers.


Did I say that a man had to be wealthy to become a GA? The unwritten rule
is that he has to have money and resources. He almost always has a
prestigious job and a fine education. That is what the Lord is looking
for. If you don't have those benefits you can't be called to be a GA, let
alone a SP. The Lord doesn't accept manual laborers into the apostleship.


President Hinckley: employee of the Church since completing his mission.

Yes, and he worked with the finest men. You can't do that unless your
getting a pretty good salary. He worked his way to the top.


President Monson: general manager of Deseret Press. 
President Faust: attorney (lawyer).

$$$ and prestige.


President Packer: pilot during WWII, supervisor of Seminaries and
Institutes of Religion.

A pilot is about the most prestiges job in all of the armed forces. I'll
bet he had a fine salary as he worked his way up in the church religious
system which is certainly a prestiges place to be by LDS standards.



Elder Perry: vice president and treasurer of department store chain in
Boston.
Elder Haight: district and regional manager of large retail store chain,
assistant to president of BYU.

$$$ and prestige


Elder Maxwell: executive vice president of the University of Utah,
Church commissioner of education.
Elder Nelson: Renowned surgeon and medical researcher.

$$$ and prestige


Elder Oaks: nine years as president of BYU, and three years as Utah
Supreme Court justice.
Elder Ballard: various business enterprises, including automotive, real
estate and investments.

$$$ and prestige


Elder Wirthlin: president of trade association in Utah.
Elder Scott: Worked 12 years developing military and private nuclear
power reactors; subsequently consultant to nuclear power industry.

$$$ and prestige


Elder Hales:  jet fighter pilot; was an executive with four major
national companies.
Elder Holland: president of Brigham Young University.
Elder Eyring: president of Ricks College, 1971-77

$$$ and prestige


Need I say more?

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Paul Osborne
Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a
rancher, as an apostle? 


A janitor, a manual laborer, and a machinist are not qualified to become
apostles but a rich rancher and a rich farmer could be considered.

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Valerie Nielsen Williams

On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:09:51 -0500 Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
 
 Did I say that a man had to be wealthy to become a GA? The unwritten 
 rule
 is that he has to have money and resources. He almost always has a
 prestigious job and a fine education. That is what the Lord is 
 looking
 for. If you don't have those benefits you can't be called to be a 
 GA, let
 alone a SP. The Lord doesn't accept manual laborers into the 
 apostleship.
 
.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.
«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤
Dear Paul:
I must wholly disagree here.  Our former stake president is only
high school educated and a construction worker.  He was my Bishop when I
was a little girl, and back then he was managing a health spa.  In fact,
we had no font in the building, so I was baptized in the pool at the spa.
 They always lived in very modest homes--not luxurious at all.  
He is also one of the most spiritual men I have ever known.  
The SP before him lost his job, was supporting a son on a
mission, AND SP.  They were living out of their food storage for many
months while he was unemployed.  Again, probably THE most spiritual man I
have ever known.  He spoke at my husband's funeral in March.  I swear, he
still speaks directly to the Lord.
I don't know how you can know who the Lord accepts and who He
doesn't anyway?  You must have some bitter experience to be speaking this
way about the Lord's annointed.  I believe the scriptures are clear when
we are told we need nothing more that a broken heart and a contrite
spirit.  I see nothing there about advanced degrees or family money or an
excellent salary.  
I'm sure if we were to do a survey of SP's, and even Area A's you
would find a majority of them are humble Laborers.   I think the fact
that our beloved President Hinckley was a man of fairly meager means
should be enough.  After all, shouldn't we all be laborers in the Lord's
vineyards?
As for resources--we are told, time and time again, to get out of
debt and to save money.  The men UP there have obviously done just
that.  If you want to be there, then follow the prophet.  Simple.

val
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RE: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread larry . jackson
Paul Osborne:

... to become a GA? The unwritten rule is that he has to 
have money and resources. He almost always has a 
prestigious job and a fine education. That is what the 
Lord is looking for. If you don't have those benefits you 
can't be called to be a GA, let alone a SP. 

___

Nice thought.  Not true.  And I think you may have a real 
hangup with the word pre$tige.

But, that's just my own personal opinion, and I will have 
another nice day again tomorrow, thank you.  Poor as I 
am in the things of this world.

Larry Jackson
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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Marc A. Schindler


Gary Smith wrote:

 You make it sound like these jobs were handed to them on a silver
 platter. Not so. They all started at the bottom, with no silver spoon in
 the mouth. Any money the GAs have, they earned it. Any education they
 received was from hard work.

 Do you think any of them had been wishing and hoping to become an
 apostle? Definitely not. Try reading President Kimball's biography on his
 reaction when called as an apostle.

This was precisely what I as thinking of. He really struggled as an insurance
broker when he was a young man.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
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Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread John W. Redelfs
At 08:47 AM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Paul Osborne wrote:

I was referring to Stake President and up. They have money and prestige.
There are plenty of talented yet poor High Priests who never get the call
because they don't have money. Money is a prerequisite to those callings.
I hope that it doesn't sound like I am faulting the Lord. I'm simply
pointing out how the Lord does business. He depends on money and if you
don't have it you won't get those high callings of Stake President and
up. That's the bottom line. It's always about money.


I had a stake president in southern California who was a manager of a 
college bookstore.  I don't think he made much more than minimum wage.  The 
neighborhood where he lived, the clothes he wore, and the car he drove 
would certainly bear out that out.  Yet he was an excellent stake 
president.  While it is true that most stake presidents are wealthy by my 
standards, that just means they are successful in their work.  Even a truck 
driver or mechanic can be wealthy if he is good enough.  And it stands to 
reason that the Lord would prefer competent men as his bishops and stake 
presidents.  That is probably why I will never have to make that 
sacrifice.  I have no special, demonstrated competence as an administrator.

Teaching jobs are at least as important as bean counting, pencil pushing, 
and paper shuffling anyway.  I would much rather teach Sunday School, a 
priesthood quorum, or seminary than serve in any administrative 
calling.  The pay is just as good, and the work is a lot more fun.

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Paul Osborne
What is your definition of money?  Is it $40,000?  $50,000?  $100,000?

$1,000,000?


My definition of money is when you have it in the bank and you don't owe
anyone anything except perhaps the mortgage. 


Most school administrators I know make about $50K. So if that is your
definition of money, then you are right, most stake presidents AND
High
Priests have money. By the time they get to that age, they have saved up
enough and worked their way up in their business enough to make $50K or
more a year.


Point taken. Thanks. 

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread John W. Redelfs
At 12:03 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a 
rancher, as an apostle? To test this out - what are the current or former 
occupations of the apostles? Its interesting that a carpenter ended up 
saving mankind.
---

Jesus was a carpenter.  Peter was a fisherman.  Joseph Smith was a 
farmer.  Brigham Young was a glazier, I believe.  Throughout the history of 
the Church, ancient and modern, the prophets have been not only pencil 
pushers, but also tradesmen.  If there is a temporary abundance of paper 
shufflers in position of leadership, it is because at this time in history 
that is what the Lord needs.  Perhaps it will be different tomorrow.  Isn't 
it wonderful that this is a living Church.  It grows and shifts to meet the 
current situation.

I think that Paul is being deliberately provocative in order to stir up a 
discussion.  I coached him while he was here. grin

It works pretty good, doesn't it Paul?

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look
at the word itself: Mankind.  Basically, it's made up of
two separate words - mank and ind.  What do these
words mean ?  It's a mystery, and that's why so is
mankind.  --Jack Handy
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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Paul Osborne
I agree with everything you are saying Gary but I'm not thinking that all
the GA's were born with silver spoons. I know they worked hard and got
educated and have fine jobs that pay quite well. That is the nature of
the man who gets the call. I am merely pointing out how the Lord does
business and was not being critical about it. Me personally, it matters
not what the profession of my bishop is. If he has the Spirit and the
mantle that is all that matters. I'm sure you agree with that. But, I can
understand how you would prefer an educated man.

Paul O  

---
On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:43:34 -0500 Gary Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 You make it sound like these jobs were handed to them on a silver
 platter. Not so. They all started at the bottom, with no silver 
 spoon in
 the mouth. Any money the GAs have, they earned it. Any education 
 they
 received was from hard work. 
 
 Do you think any of them had been wishing and hoping to become an
 apostle? Definitely not. Try reading President Kimball's biography 
 on his
 reaction when called as an apostle. Ask your stake president his 
 thoughts
 on being called a stake president. I'll bet he wasn't jumping for 
 joy.
 Rather, he was humbling submitting to the calling.
 
 There is nothing prestigious to these callings. There is some
 recognition, but in all reality, the pay isn't that great. Most 
 would
 prefer to make it to heaven without the experience of being an 
 apostle or
 stake president, but the humble ones accept the call when given.
 
 These men are successful in life because they earned their success. 
 In
 earning that success, they made themselves useful to God and His 
 work. Of
 course God is probably going to call an educated man over a ditch 
 digger.
 If you had a major struggle in your life, would you prefer your 
 bishop be
 a psychiatrist or a day laborer? Educated or illiterate? 
 Financially
 comfortable or standing by the roadside with a sign will work for 
 food?
  
 
 God uses those who have qualified themselves for the work. Many are
 called, but few chosen. Many aren't chosen because they try and do 
 things
 their way, rather than God's way. They want to use the priesthood 
 for
 their own use, rather than make themselves a useful tool for God to 
 use.
 
 The Brethren had comfortable lives because they earned a 
 comfortable
 life. The prestige came only because they worked hard and earned it. 
 If
 you or I don't receive prestige, it is probably because we haven't 
 done
 ng prestigious.


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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread John W. Redelfs
At 08:48 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Gary Smith wrote:

I would say that most apostles will have money. There are exceptions,
though fewer and fewer as the Church grows. Even today, many of our
apostles are not wealthy, but are comfortable.


In my family comfortable is a euphemism for wealthy.  --JWR

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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread John W. Redelfs
At 09:43 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Gary Smith wrote:

There is nothing prestigious to these callings. There is some
recognition, but in all reality, the pay isn't that great. Most would
prefer to make it to heaven without the experience of being an apostle or
stake president, but the humble ones accept the call when given.


I think it depends on where you are.  There is little prestige in being a 
bishop or stake president here in this part of Alaska.  But in the 
SLC-Provo area those callings are definitely prestige callings.  You can 
tell by listening to the wives.

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Paul Osborne
I think that Paul is being deliberately provocative in order to stir up
a 
discussion.  I coached him while he was here. grin

It works pretty good, doesn't it Paul?



Yep. Your s right John. I like to be provocative and stir things up.
It's fun, but I would feel bad if I hurt someones feelings. 

And, yes, John gave me some good pointers. I've seen how John operates
too and have watched him type letters to the list. I've seen his
computer, chair, book shelves, and table. I can visualize him right now
in my mind. 

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] High priests have money

2002-10-22 Thread Paul Osborne

On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 18:54:03 -0600 Marc A. Schindler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that 
 sincerely),
 so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are 
 unlikely, for one
 reason or another (assuming, of course, that we're reasonably 
 righteous,
 temple-recommend-holding active members) are highly unlikely to hold 
 a position
 of line authority. Why are people like that ordained to High 
 Priests.
 
 I know there's an implicit assumption here, so I'll make it 
 explicit: I'm
 assuming that there are people in this set (I think I'm one of 
 them). But I could
 be wrong -- it's an assumption.


$$$ High Callings $$$

It's all about money, Marc. Money attracts and inspires more money and
that is how it works. If you got money you're much more likely set
yourself up for one them high positions that come available. People who
have money are considered to be more successful then others and they are
the ones that are usually considered by those praying about a new calling
to be extended. The Lord just can't get his work done without the
Almighty Buck!  I've heard all the excuses that this isn't so but the
bottom line is always the dollar. Oh well, the church is still true--aah,
I think. ;-)

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] High priests have money

2002-10-22 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I think I see your point, even past the tongue in your cheek, and hadn't thought
about that. The Lord needs a pool to draw from, and the HP are that pool, so
whether any given HP is or is not eventually called to what I keep calling a
posiiton of line authority (to use a secular term) is irrelevant. Is that what
you're saying? It makes sense to me. In fact, it reminds me in many ways of a
talk BRMcC gave in, iirc, 1975, at a Friday Forum at the U of Utah Institute of
Religion. He said there were more than enough men in the Church who were
spiritually competent to be GAs, but the Church also needs secular skills of
leadership, management and experience (sometimes in specialized areas, and here I
think of 2 of my fellow nationals, Alexander Morrison, an Africa man and N.
Eldon Tanner, who is largely credited with saving the Church's finances in the
early 60s. Both of them were fast-tracked into GA-hood, if I can put it that
way).

Paul Osborne wrote:

 On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 18:54:03 -0600 Marc A. Schindler
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that
  sincerely),
  so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are
  unlikely, for one
  reason or another (assuming, of course, that we're reasonably
  righteous,
  temple-recommend-holding active members) are highly unlikely to hold
  a position
  of line authority. Why are people like that ordained to High
  Priests.
 
  I know there's an implicit assumption here, so I'll make it
  explicit: I'm
  assuming that there are people in this set (I think I'm one of
  them). But I could
  be wrong -- it's an assumption.

 $$$ High Callings $$$

 It's all about money, Marc. Money attracts and inspires more money and
 that is how it works. If you got money you're much more likely set
 yourself up for one them high positions that come available. People who
 have money are considered to be more successful then others and they are
 the ones that are usually considered by those praying about a new calling
 to be extended. The Lord just can't get his work done without the
 Almighty Buck!  I've heard all the excuses that this isn't so but the
 bottom line is always the dollar. Oh well, the church is still true--aah,
 I think. ;-)

 Paul O
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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