Re: [ZION] Something else to ponder
Jim, I just read your post to my wife and she told me to tell you that you are her hero and she has a crush on you now! She studies mental illness very seriously. What an excellent post! Paul O On Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:58:46 + Jim Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My regular diatribe on this question-- Those of us who now need or have needed psychotrophic drugs for personal maintenance face serious enough challenges in life, without having to contend with unqualified people who presume to know all about our illnesses and afflictions. And sadly, there is no end to the stigma attached to any manifestation of mental illness. In spite of all the talk denying that such unfair discrimination exists, anyone who has been there has probably found himself more tightly restrained than by any strong guys in white coats, strait jackets, or padded rooms. When we need drugs to sustain our lives, a chemical that restores balance to the physical function of the brain is not different from the insulin that allows a diabetic to supplement the insufficient function of his pancreas. There are any number of additional parallels. Yet sufferers from mental illness are still a special class of people in our society, reserved for generally unwarranted special treatment, and generally unfavorable discrimination. Please never attempt to discourage anyone from taking the drugs that are in the current array of defenses against mental illness. Many of these drugs have unpleasant side effects that we would just as soon not have to deal with. Even more important, we inflict the shame of stigma upon our own selves, and taking medicine for such an illness seems like admitting to yourself that you're something less than an worthy person. Yet these drugs might well help some of us make something hopeful and worthwhile from a life that would otherwise languish and be wasted in despair. If you need such drugs, don't let anyone discourage you from taking them as directed by your doctor. Always remember to take your pills on schedule. Remember too that we are not alone in bearing such burdens, and don't be discouraged by the idle talk of people that don't understand your problems. We do what we must to survive, and face another day. To endure to the end is our mission. Even if it takes a few pills to help us get by. --- Mij Ebaboc Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something else to ponder
It was brought up in a larger discussion about the number of people in the ward suffering from depression, and the church's change to being more supportive of people using drugs to overcome it. Yep. I'm a big goof and shoot my mouth off all the time and tell people about my problems to members of the ward. And in return, they tell me a little bit about their problems. A lot of people are on meds and that is no exaggeration. My elders quorum president is on them too and so is the bishop's wife. The list goes on and on. This crazy world we live in is driving people nuts. It's complicated, fast paced, demanding, and financially more difficult to pilot then it has ever been. We are being squeezed by the demands and complications of modern living. Do this do that. Deadlines, red lights, no bonus, bad economy, computer car problems, etc... Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something else to ponder
Add to this mess people whose families are controlling and a society that does not care about that and you have a recipe for psychological anxiety-producing events of such a magnitude we haven't seen in past ages. Stacy. At 06:42 AM 11/22/2002 -0600, you wrote: It was brought up in a larger discussion about the number of people in the ward suffering from depression, and the church's change to being more supportive of people using drugs to overcome it. Yep. I'm a big goof and shoot my mouth off all the time and tell people about my problems to members of the ward. And in return, they tell me a little bit about their problems. A lot of people are on meds and that is no exaggeration. My elders quorum president is on them too and so is the bishop's wife. The list goes on and on. This crazy world we live in is driving people nuts. It's complicated, fast paced, demanding, and financially more difficult to pilot then it has ever been. We are being squeezed by the demands and complications of modern living. Do this do that. Deadlines, red lights, no bonus, bad economy, computer car problems, etc... Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Something else to ponder
Well, how many of them are diagnosed with true ADHD? Stacy. At 03:01 PM 11/21/2002 -0700, you wrote: Dan R Allen wrote: --- This very subject came up in a meeting I attended recently, and a statistic was thrown out that I found rather shocking: 40% of missionaries from North America are supposably on Ritalyn. Has anyone else heard this? --- Jim: It seems more likely that this report is conflated with other legitimate concerns. It is widely reported that Ritalin is popular for prescription drug abuse on college campuses. http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/children/01/08/college.ritalin/; I would need to see more substantive information sources to think that Ritalin would be so widely prescribed for young missionaries. And based on my own observation, I seriously doubt that illegal drug use is a widespread problem among Church missionaries. Dan: The comment wasn't made in the mode of abuse/illegal use, but the belief that a large number of missionaries are reporting to the mission field with pre-existing prescriptions, and that it might be playing a factor in where missionaries are assigned (the assumption was that the drug and prescriptions are easier to maintain/fill in NA.) I do know that it is heavily prescribed, whether justified or not I can't really say. It was brought up in a larger discussion about the number of people in the ward suffering from depression, and the church's change to being more supportive of people using drugs to overcome it. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Something else to ponder
My first observation still stands. :Even though we feel we need some of these chemicals, does it limit personal revelation? I wasn't trying to ridicule, only trying to figure out whether or not these things would limit our ability to get personal revelation. Stacy. At 06:58 PM 11/21/2002 +, you wrote: My regular diatribe on this question-- Those of us who now need or have needed psychotrophic drugs for personal maintenance face serious enough challenges in life, without having to contend with unqualified people who presume to know all about our illnesses and afflictions. And sadly, there is no end to the stigma attached to any manifestation of mental illness. In spite of all the talk denying that such unfair discrimination exists, anyone who has been there has probably found himself more tightly restrained than by any strong guys in white coats, strait jackets, or padded rooms. When we need drugs to sustain our lives, a chemical that restores balance to the physical function of the brain is not different from the insulin that allows a diabetic to supplement the insufficient function of his pancreas. There are any number of additional parallels. Yet sufferers from mental illness are still a special class of people in our society, reserved for generally unwarranted special treatment, and generally unfavorable discrimination. Please never attempt to discourage anyone from taking the drugs that are in the current array of defenses against mental illness. Many of these drugs have unpleasant side effects that we would just as soon not have to deal with. Even more important, we inflict the shame of stigma upon our own selves, and taking medicine for such an illness seems like admitting to yourself that you're something less than an worthy person. Yet these drugs might well help some of us make something hopeful and worthwhile from a life that would otherwise languish and be wasted in despair. If you need such drugs, don't let anyone discourage you from taking them as directed by your doctor. Always remember to take your pills on schedule. Remember too that we are not alone in bearing such burdens, and don't be discouraged by the idle talk of people that don't understand your problems. We do what we must to survive, and face another day. To endure to the end is our mission. Even if it takes a few pills to help us get by. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something else to ponder
My first observation still stands. :Even though we feel we need some of these chemicals, does it limit personal revelation? I wasn't trying to ridicule, only trying to figure out whether or not these things would limit our ability to get personal revelation. Personal revelation without meds? I doubt it. Without meds there is no use in living. All is vanity and God is not to be heard. So it seems to me. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something else to ponder
Stacy: Add to this mess people whose families are controlling and a society that does not care about that and you have a recipe for psychological anxiety-producing events of such a magnitude we haven't seen in past ages. Dan: Right. So what can the church do to help individuals and families deal with these problems before the only thing left is to pick up the pieces? Drugs offer us an incredible tool for dealing with acute problems, but they shouldn't be the catch-all, one-size-fits-all solution. I'm not advocating ignoring a doctor's orders, but shouldn't there be some concern when large numbers of members need drugs to function? Stacy. At 06:42 AM 11/22/2002 -0600, you wrote: It was brought up in a larger discussion about the number of people in the ward suffering from depression, and the church's change to being more supportive of people using drugs to overcome it. Yep. I'm a big goof and shoot my mouth off all the time and tell people about my problems to members of the ward. And in return, they tell me a little bit about their problems. A lot of people are on meds and that is no exaggeration. My elders quorum president is on them too and so is the bishop's wife. The list goes on and on. This crazy world we live in is driving people nuts. It's complicated, fast paced, demanding, and financially more difficult to pilot then it has ever been. We are being squeezed by the demands and complications of modern living. Do this do that. Deadlines, red lights, no bonus, bad economy, computer car problems, etc... Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Something else to ponder
My regular diatribe on this question-- Those of us who now need or have needed psychotrophic drugs for personal maintenance face serious enough challenges in life, without having to contend with unqualified people who presume to know all about our illnesses and afflictions. And sadly, there is no end to the stigma attached to any manifestation of mental illness. In spite of all the talk denying that such unfair discrimination exists, anyone who has been there has probably found himself more tightly restrained than by any strong guys in white coats, strait jackets, or padded rooms. When we need drugs to sustain our lives, a chemical that restores balance to the physical function of the brain is not different from the insulin that allows a diabetic to supplement the insufficient function of his pancreas. There are any number of additional parallels. Yet sufferers from mental illness are still a special class of people in our society, reserved for generally unwarranted special treatment, and generally unfavorable discrimination. Please never attempt to discourage anyone from taking the drugs that are in the current array of defenses against mental illness. Many of these drugs have unpleasant side effects that we would just as soon not have to deal with. Even more important, we inflict the shame of stigma upon our own selves, and taking medicine for such an illness seems like admitting to yourself that you're something less than an worthy person. Yet these drugs might well help some of us make something hopeful and worthwhile from a life that would otherwise languish and be wasted in despair. If you need such drugs, don't let anyone discourage you from taking them as directed by your doctor. Always remember to take your pills on schedule. Remember too that we are not alone in bearing such burdens, and don't be discouraged by the idle talk of people that don't understand your problems. We do what we must to survive, and face another day. To endure to the end is our mission. Even if it takes a few pills to help us get by. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something else to ponder
Gary: The Church's official position is that we should use some caution with medications for mental illness. However, it has drastically backed off from some statements made by General Authorities even 20 years or less ago. Elder Packer had a speech (Be Ye Not Troubled), where he warned about the overuse of psychiatrists and medications. I haven't heard him warn about it in many years, though. Part of this may have to do with the drastic change in medical developments over the past couple decades. Older drugs used to paralyze emotions, while today's drugs are more effective in just moderating them. Dan: This very subject came up in a meeting I attended recently, and a statistic was thrown out that I found rather shocking: 40% of missionaries from North America are supposably on Ritalyn. Has anyone else heard this? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something else to ponder
Jim Cobabe wrote: My regular diatribe on this question-- Those of us who now need or have needed psychotrophic drugs for personal maintenance face serious enough challenges in life, without having to contend with unqualified people who presume to know all about our illnesses and afflictions. And sadly, there is no end to the stigma attached to any manifestation of mental illness. In spite of all the talk denying that such unfair discrimination exists, anyone who has been there has probably found himself more tightly restrained than by any strong guys in white coats, strait jackets, or padded rooms. Well said. I call these well-meaning critics Job's Comforters. My least favourite (although, again, they're just trying to help) are those who insist that I try the latest non-technological fad, be it Tahitian berries or special massages, and when I tell them I've tried traditional medicine, their response is 100% predictable: but this one's new and it WORKS! I've never learned how to respond tactfully. When we need drugs to sustain our lives, a chemical that restores balance to the physical function of the brain is not different from the insulin that allows a diabetic to supplement the insufficient function of his pancreas. There are any number of additional parallels. Yet sufferers from mental illness are still a special class of people in our society, reserved for generally unwarranted special treatment, and generally unfavorable discrimination. Please never attempt to discourage anyone from taking the drugs that are in the current array of defenses against mental illness. Many of these drugs have unpleasant side effects that we would just as soon not have to deal with. Even more important, we inflict the shame of stigma upon our own selves, and taking medicine for such an illness seems like admitting to yourself that you're something less than an worthy person. Yet these drugs might well help some of us make something hopeful and worthwhile from a life that would otherwise languish and be wasted in despair. If you need such drugs, don't let anyone discourage you from taking them as directed by your doctor. Always remember to take your pills on schedule. Remember too that we are not alone in bearing such burdens, and don't be discouraged by the idle talk of people that don't understand your problems. We do what we must to survive, and face another day. To endure to the end is our mission. Even if it takes a few pills to help us get by. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Something else to ponder
Dan R Allen wrote: --- This very subject came up in a meeting I attended recently, and a statistic was thrown out that I found rather shocking: 40% of missionaries from North America are supposably on Ritalyn. Has anyone else heard this? --- It seems more likely that this report is conflated with other legitimate concerns. It is widely reported that Ritalin is popular for prescription drug abuse on college campuses. http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/children/01/08/college.ritalin/; I would need to see more substantive information sources to think that Ritalin would be so widely prescribed for young missionaries. And based on my own observation, I seriously doubt that illegal drug use is a widespread problem among Church missionaries. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
--- From: Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- I sometimes feel that I have too many regrets about past misdeeds to be able to enter the celestial kingdom even when I have repented of them. --- Jon Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Satan apparently has done a job on you. Don't you believe Christ? He said that if you have repented, He has forgotten your sins. What a waste for Him to forget them and for you not to? Otherwise, why did He go through the Atonement for you (and me)? Jut a kindly and humbly administered slap to shake you out of it! I want to agree with you totally, but I can relate to what Stacy is speaking of. For while I try not to think about sin, every so often I trip upon it--sometimes in much the same way that someone might step on a land mine. Having a sin that's forgiven doesn't mean I am always able to forget it, even if I wanted to. And if I remember something that I have done, it sometimes feels like the sin has happened all over again even when sincere repentance has taken place. Moreover, I think of passages like DC 82:7, which states ...unto the soul that sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God. How would I reconcile this verse with the doctrine of the Atonement? Everyone struggles with something, and occasionally I then ask myself, will my record really be clear on account of the things I struggle with? If I am not perfect in something, would not the record reflect my former sins returning with respect to my areas of imperfection? I mean, I try not to believe that, but those are the thoughts I have to contend with, even more often than I would like. All the best, /Sandy/ // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
On Wed, 20 Nov 2002 10:55:36 -0600 Sandy and Melinda Rabinowitz I want to agree with you totally, but I can relate to what Stacy is speaking of. For while I try not to think about sin, every so often I trip upon it--sometimes in much the same way that someone might step on a land mine. Having a sin that's forgiven doesn't mean I am always able to forget it, even if I wanted to. And if I remember something that I have done, it sometimes feels like the sin has happened all over again even when sincere repentance has taken place. Moreover, I think of passages like DC 82:7, which states ...unto the soul that sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God. How would I reconcile this verse with the doctrine of the Atonement? Everyone struggles with something, and occasionally I then ask myself, will my record really be clear on account of the things I struggle with? If I am not perfect in something, would not the record reflect my former sins returning with respect to my areas of imperfection? I mean, I try not to believe that, but those are the thoughts I have to contend with, even more often than I would like. I'm just the opposite. When I repent and follow the gospel plan my sins become history. I have full confidence in the atonement seeing Christ suffered infinite pain for me. My sins are his problem. I just hand it over and move on. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
Paul Osborne wrote: I'm just the opposite. When I repent and follow the gospel plan my sins become history. Yer lucky. When I repent, my sins become part of my wife's history. ducking [Mom, you'll never believe what he did] [actually, that's not true, I'm just throwing off one-liners] Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
-Stacy- I've long suspected that psychoactive drugs, while helping someone to feel better, also lessens perception of personal revelation. Am I right? I'm no authority on the matter, but I believe you are. As a general rule, it seems transparently obvious to me that altering one's brain chemistry can't lead to closer communion with the Spirit of God. Individual exceptions doubtless exist regarding those who supplement their natural deficiencies with attempted replacement; for example, I doubt epilepsy _per se_ brings people unto Christ, so Dilantin or something of the sort may well put those so afflicted in a literally better frame of mind. One of my favorite missionary companions, who became a close personal friend both during and after my mission, told me of his pre-mission, pre-Church-activity drug usage. He said that, in retrospect, a cocaine high reminded him of nothing so much as a deep spiritual experience -- except that there was no communion with the Spirit, and that true spirituality doesn't end with a crash that leaves the person suicidal. He believed that many drug users crave this feeling of spiritual peace and serenity, and that's why they become addicted. I realize you probably weren't talking about illegal drug usage, but I thought it a relevant insight anyway. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
The question then remains: Can we legitimately use substances which would lower our anxiety level, especially if those substances are said to be nonaddictive? Stacy. At 05:52 PM 11/19/2002 +, you wrote: -Stacy- I've long suspected that psychoactive drugs, while helping someone to feel better, also lessens perception of personal revelation. Am I right? I'm no authority on the matter, but I believe you are. As a general rule, it seems transparently obvious to me that altering one's brain chemistry can't lead to closer communion with the Spirit of God. Individual exceptions doubtless exist regarding those who supplement their natural deficiencies with attempted replacement; for example, I doubt epilepsy _per se_ brings people unto Christ, so Dilantin or something of the sort may well put those so afflicted in a literally better frame of mind. One of my favorite missionary companions, who became a close personal friend both during and after my mission, told me of his pre-mission, pre-Church-activity drug usage. He said that, in retrospect, a cocaine high reminded him of nothing so much as a deep spiritual experience -- except that there was no communion with the Spirit, and that true spirituality doesn't end with a crash that leaves the person suicidal. He believed that many drug users crave this feeling of spiritual peace and serenity, and that's why they become addicted. I realize you probably weren't talking about illegal drug usage, but I thought it a relevant insight anyway. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
You know something I think of alot and wonder if any of y`all do is that Joseph Smith would not even drink the whiskey they tried to give him to dull the pain when they worked on his leg, do we rely on medicine instead of priesthood blessings and our Heavenly Father too much? Just wondered what your feelings are on this? Sandra The question then remains: Can we legitimately use substances which would lower our anxiety level, especially if those substances are said to be nonaddictive? Stacy. At 05:52 PM 11/19/2002 +, you wrote: -Stacy- I've long suspected that psychoactive drugs, while helping someone to feel better, also lessens perception of personal revelation. Am I right? I'm no authority on the matter, but I believe you are. As a general rule, it seems transparently obvious to me that altering one's brain chemistry can't lead to closer communion with the Spirit of God. Individual exceptions doubtless exist regarding those who supplement their natural deficiencies with attempted replacement; for example, I doubt epilepsy _per se_ brings people unto Christ, so Dilantin or something of the sort may well put those so afflicted in a literally better frame of mind. One of my favorite missionary companions, who became a close personal friend both during and after my mission, told me of his pre-mission, pre-Church-activity drug usage. He said that, in retrospect, a cocaine high reminded him of nothing so much as a deep spiritual experience -- except that there was no communion with the Spirit, and that true spirituality doesn't end with a crash that leaves the person suicidal. He believed that many drug users crave this feeling of spiritual peace and serenity, and that's why they become addicted. I realize you probably weren't talking about illegal drug usage, but I thought it a relevant insight anyway. Stephen /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
do we rely on medicine instead of priesthood blessings and our Heavenly Father too much? The Lord gave mankind the power to invent and find ways to help us with our problems outside the bounds of prayers and blessings. Millions of people who don't believe in prayer and blessings are reaping the benefits of modern discovery. I'll take pills, blessings, and prayers. It's a pretty good combo but sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes nothing works. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
Amen. Stewardship over the Earth means to learn how to use what's here to improve our lives, imo. Paul Osborne wrote: do we rely on medicine instead of priesthood blessings and our Heavenly Father too much? The Lord gave mankind the power to invent and find ways to help us with our problems outside the bounds of prayers and blessings. Millions of people who don't believe in prayer and blessings are reaping the benefits of modern discovery. I'll take pills, blessings, and prayers. It's a pretty good combo but sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes nothing works. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
Satan apparently has done a job on you. Don't you believe Christ? He said that if you have repented, He has forgotten your sins. What a waste for Him to forget them and for you not to? Otherwise, why did He go through the Atonement for you (and me)? Jut a kindly and humbly administered slap to shake you out of it! Jon - Original Message - From: Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:49 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder I sometimes feel that I have too many regrets about past misdeeds to be able to enter the celestial kingdom even when I have repented of them. Stacy. At 12:31 AM 11/18/2002 +, you wrote: Stacy Smith wrote: --- I've long suspected that psychoactive drugs, while helping someone to feel better, also lessens perception of personal revelation. Am I right? --- We can experience genuine spiritual manifestations that are a result of the power and direct influence of God. Many make misguided efforts to attain an elevated level of spiritual sensitivity by counterfeit methods. But according to the teachings of prophets and leaders of the Church, our level of spiritual communion with Heavenly Father depends upon personal righteousness, and observance of the laws of the Gospel. --- Mij Ebaboc /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
I believe Christ. I may not always believe in the efficacy of my own repentance or that I have done enough to satisfy good repentance. Stacy. At 06:34 PM 11/19/2002 -0500, you wrote: Satan apparently has done a job on you. Don't you believe Christ? He said that if you have repented, He has forgotten your sins. What a waste for Him to forget them and for you not to? Otherwise, why did He go through the Atonement for you (and me)? Jut a kindly and humbly administered slap to shake you out of it! Jon - Original Message - From: Stacy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:49 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder I sometimes feel that I have too many regrets about past misdeeds to be able to enter the celestial kingdom even when I have repented of them. Stacy. At 12:31 AM 11/18/2002 +, you wrote: Stacy Smith wrote: --- I've long suspected that psychoactive drugs, while helping someone to feel better, also lessens perception of personal revelation. Am I right? --- We can experience genuine spiritual manifestations that are a result of the power and direct influence of God. Many make misguided efforts to attain an elevated level of spiritual sensitivity by counterfeit methods. But according to the teachings of prophets and leaders of the Church, our level of spiritual communion with Heavenly Father depends upon personal righteousness, and observance of the laws of the Gospel. --- Mij Ebaboc /// /// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Something Else To Ponder
Stacy Smith wrote: --- I've long suspected that psychoactive drugs, while helping someone to feel better, also lessens perception of personal revelation. Am I right? --- We can experience genuine spiritual manifestations that are a result of the power and direct influence of God. Many make misguided efforts to attain an elevated level of spiritual sensitivity by counterfeit methods. But according to the teachings of prophets and leaders of the Church, our level of spiritual communion with Heavenly Father depends upon personal righteousness, and observance of the laws of the Gospel. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
