Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-22 Thread Steven Montgomery
At 12:03 AM 10/22/2002, Marc wrote:


What difference does that make to the point I've been trying to make that 
it was
US meddling that paved the way to his [Castro's] rise to power?

We have no argument here. I agree. Although probably for different reasons.



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-22 Thread Paul Osborne
Trouble is, where is the General Authority 
who disagrees with ETB regarding this particular issue, that of Fidel 
Castro being a communist? I haven't been able to find one. Perhaps there
is 
a general consensus then?


O come on Steven, get real. We don't even know which of the Presidential
candidates the GA's voted for let alone which parties they think the
world leaders are in.

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-22 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Thank you.

Steven Montgomery wrote:

 At 12:03 AM 10/22/2002, Marc wrote:

 What difference does that make to the point I've been trying to make that
 it was
 US meddling that paved the way to his [Castro's] rise to power?

 We have no argument here. I agree. Although probably for different reasons.

 --
 Steven Montgomery
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
 selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
 politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today.
 --Steven W. Mosher

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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-22 Thread Steven Montgomery
At 11:58 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote:



Straw man, Steven. I have never tried to argue that Castro is not 
Communist, is not
a dictator. We are talking right past each other. I'm admitting all the 
bad things
you are saying about him, but saying that the US had a large -- indeed, 
the major
-- part to play in paving the way for him to come to power. You could have
prevented it by nurturing democracy but you chose instead to nurture 
tyranny. I
don't care what colour you paint the giant bronze statue in the town square --
Communist red is the same as Fascist brown  or Plutocratic green and gold 
in my
books.

Then what are we arguing about? Because I generally agree with your 
position here. Gadianton Robbers located in the U.S. *did* have a great 
part to play in Castro coming to power. Just as they played a part in the 
Bolshevik revolution and helping Mao come to power. Such was the general 
thesis in books such as, _None Dare Call It Conspiracy_, _The Naked 
Capitalist_, and others.



--
Steven Montgomery
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--Steven W. Mosher 

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-22 Thread Marc A. Schindler


Steven Montgomery wrote:

 Then what are we arguing about?

Who's on first, I guess :-)


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a
coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-22 Thread Paul Osborne
It was merely a rhetorical question.


Oh. I'm a little dumb. 

;-)

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-22 Thread John W. Redelfs
At 01:44 PM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Paul Osborne wrote:

O come on Steven, get real. We don't even know which of the Presidential
candidates the GA's voted for let alone which parties they think the
world leaders are in.


So how come we know where President Benson stood on these issues?  --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Sorry, you're right. The incident happened in Colombia (not Columbia), but
Betancourt was from Venezuela.

Steven Montgomery wrote:

 At 12:25 AM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote:
   One of the
 alleged witnesses to hearing Castro claim he was a Communist was supposed
 to be
 Rómulo Betancourt of Colombia, but when Betancourt found out the US press was
 claiming this, he hotly denied it.

 First, Betancourt was from Venezuela, not Columbia. Second, why should we
 believe Betancourt?

Why should we believe JBS material? Why do you always neglect to point out that
Cuba *did* elect democrat governments, but they were always co-opted by US
industrial interests with the backing of the military (Cuba, Nicaragua and Panama
are the countries where the term gunboat diplomacy was invented, and this
doesn't reflect well on the US's early venture into true imperialism --
fortunately J. Reuben Clark, Jr., an elder in Zion, helped nip this in the bud,
and the modern-day quasi-imperium is far more benign than it would have been had
Teddy Roosevelt had his way completely). I've never seen that in any JBS
literature. It's as if Cuba's history starts with the Cuban Revolution when Castro
came down out of the hills around Santiago and Santa Cruz.

That Castro was anti-US, even viscerally hateful of the US, is well-known and not
in dispute. He saw revolution as the only way to break the endless pattern of
Cubans electing democratic governments only to have them subverted into puppet
regimes of US agricultural interests and organized crime figures. But painting him
in ideological colours oversimplifies Cuban history and dismisses the sins of the
U.S. in the matter, right back to the blowing up of the Maine in Havana Harbour.
You want a conspiracy theory? Look into the role of William Randolph Hearst, the
media baron (and the inventor, according to some, of yellow journalism).

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a
coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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RE: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Psychic Marc-
 [Castro] saw revolution as the only way to break the endless
 pattern of Cubans electing democratic governments etc.

-Confused Marc-
 Where's the beef, er, ideology? I deliberately avoided painting
 him in ideological colours. This is history as it happened

If you can't see how your psychic analysis, or at least psychoanalysis, 
of Castro does not constitute history as it happened, but rather is an 
ideological gloss, then I'm powerless to help. However, as you take 
great pleasure in tweaking Americans, I expect that's what you're 
doing now.

Stephen the Tweaked

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler


Steven Montgomery wrote:

 At 12:25 AM 10/21/2002, you wrote:
 No, Clifford -- ask Steven to reveal his sources.

 Don't know about your sources, but I take mine from Prophets of God:


Oh, I forgot, Clifford. That's another tactic of the far right in the Church: to
try to shut you up by pretending that they are speaking doctrine. This makes any
criticism you may have of a purely political matter ipso facto a religious issue.
It's a shameful tactic, imo.


 Just a short time ago Fidel Castro broadcast to the world his boastful
 confession that he had been a hard-core communist all of his adult life. He
 gloried in the fact that he had been able to confuse and deceive many
 people simply by saying he was not a communist. And because there were
 gullible people in this and other countries who believed his false
 assertions, he was able to establish a Soviet beachhead—A communist
 satellite under active Russian control.
   (10233elder Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1962, First
 Day—Morning Meeting 15.)


Again, even if this is true, what's the point? Cuba could have developed along
stable, democratic lines, but the US prevented it. Castro is a US product, and he
revels in his role as a foil to Washington. You just feed him with this kind of
rhetoric.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 
  Steven Montgomery wrote:
 
   At 12:25 AM 10/21/2002, you wrote:
   No, Clifford -- ask Steven to reveal his sources.
  
   Don't know about your sources, but I take mine from Prophets of God:
  
 
  Oh, I forgot, Clifford. That's another tactic of the far right in the
 Churc h: to
  try to shut you up by pretending that they are speaking doctrine. This
 make s any
  criticism you may have of a purely political matter ipso facto a religious
  issue.
  It's a shameful tactic, imo.

 What!? You don't believe a Prophet of God? The perhaps you'll believe this from
 Castro's own words as published June 1986 in the French magazine, Le Figaro.


See -- he never gives up. Put a sock in it, Steven. My testimony doesn't depend on
your political views.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a
coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer, nor
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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Since this thread is fraying all over the place, here's a summary post of how I
see the history of Cuba.

1.The US interfered with Cuba and controlled it since it received nominal
independence from Spain. These interests included industrial (sugar and other
agriculture) interests and organized crime. They were backed up by US military
force.
2.Cuba tried on a number of occasions to elect truly democratic governments.
These governments were destabilized and fell, thanks to the intervention of the
above-mentioned interests.
3.Castro (and others) felt that the only way to break this chain was to sever
the link with the U.S. He led a successful revolution and severed ties with the
U.S. He offered compensation for nationalized assets, but the U.S. passed a law
making it illegal for U.S. residents to accept compensation.
4. Castro's ideology at least after taking power was communism.
5.Castro may or may not have been a communist since before the revolution,
however, a) it's irrelevant because his true ideology was simply anti-US -- he
had seen what he felt to be the rape of his country and wanted to stop it, and
would use whatever means necessary to achieve that aim; b) when witnesses are
trotted forth from JBS literature saying that Castro had always been a communist,
we're supposed to believe them, but when it's shown that these witnesses are
misrepresented, all of a sudden they become Gadianton Robbers and aren't to be
trusted -- that is not an objective approach; c) concentrating on the ideology,
and demonizing Castro because of it allows the far right to ignore or divert
issues of how Castro was able to seize power in the first place (by dint of US
interference and proto-imperialism).
6.That things aren't even worse in Central America and the Caribbean are
thanks to an elder of Zion, J. Reuben Clark, Jr., whose Clark Memorandum
diverted early 20th century attempts by the U.S. to become true imperialists like
their British and French predecessors.
7.I have no idea what Victor is talking about. Where does one get a card that
says one is a liberal democrat? (except in Britain, where there's a Liberal
Democratic party). Also, it's straitlaced, not straightlaced. The words have
different meanings. If he means all Democrats are liberal, then I suggest he
discuss his problem with President Faust, a registered Democrat.
8.An ideological approach is one where one demonizes an opponent by using a
label in such a way as to divert one's attention from what actually happened in
history. One of its particularly obnoxious tools, and the reason I left Zion-L
once, is when they try to claim ecclesiastical/doctrinal authority for their
perverted and hobby horse views.
9.Pointing out your own history to you doesn't make one anti-USAmerican. If
you disagree with my reading of history, then prove me wrong, don't attack the
messenger. That's the classic mistake of an ad hominem argument.

I think that covers it all. I'll proceed with any discussion of the topic based
on these points, because I've already addressed them. If others are merely going
to rehash earlier arguments, I'm going to ignore them -- they've already been
addressed. So address the response, don't just repeat yourself.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Marc writes:

  Again, even if this is true, what's the point? Cuba could have developed
 al ong
  stable, democratic lines, but the US prevented it.

 Which is exactely the point made in Quigley's, _Tragedy and Hope_ and
 Skousen's, _The Naked Capitalist_, Gary Allen's, _None Dare Call It Conspiracy_
 and many other book.


No it's not. They just attack ideology. There is not one mention in None Dare Call
it Conspiracy or the Naked Conspiracy that I can recall (I haven't read Quigley's
book) about U.S. thwarting of the development of democracy in Cuba.

delete the usual cut-and-paste omit the most important facts JBS stuff

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst
thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated…To
think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any
idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly character; ability
to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for
action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in “The
Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer, nor
those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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RE: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Marc-
 Since this thread is fraying all over the place, here's a
 summary post of how I see the history of Cuba.
 [...]
 6.That things aren't even worse in Central America and the
 Caribbean are thanks to an elder of Zion, J. Reuben Clark, Jr.,
 whose Clark Memorandum diverted early 20th century attempts
 by the U.S. to become true imperialists like their British and
 French predecessors.

Not sure how this (or any of the following points) has anything to do 
with the history of Cuba. Also, don't you think your above statement is 
an oversimplification?

 7.I have no idea what Victor is talking about. Where does
 one get a card that says one is a liberal democrat?

One can get that from me, for a small charge.

 Also, it's straitlaced, not straightlaced. The words have
 different meanings.

Not according to www.m-w.com. They are listed as variant spellings of 
the same word. In any case, if you're going to be critical of spelling, 
you missed then, let's, forgiveness, afterlife, card-carrying, 
temple-going, and of course Latter-day Saint. But such things seem 
to me a case of attacking the messenger instead of the message, 
something I know you find distasteful.

 If he means all Democrats are liberal, then I suggest he discuss
 his problem with President Faust, a registered Democrat.

Interesting. I did not get that meaning at all from what he wrote, nor 
did it even occur to me. Perhaps Canadians just can't understand 
American political talk...

 8.An ideological approach is one where one demonizes an
 opponent by using a label in such a way as to divert one's
 attention from what actually happened in history.

Ah. In other words, Steven's approach was ideological *because* he was 
demonizing an opponent with ideological tags, while your approach was 
clearly not ideological, since you weren't using your ideological tags 
to demonize Castro. But then, you were arguably demonizing the US. Of 
course, I expect you'd claim the US wasn't your opponent, so therefore 
it still doesn't fit your definition of an ideological approach. I'm 
just not sure I accept your definition, I guess.

 One of its particularly obnoxious tools, and the reason I left
 Zion-L once, is when they try to claim ecclesiastical/doctrinal
 authority for their perverted and hobby horse views.

Again, I agree completely with this sentiment. As an example, those who 
try to leverage Elder Nelson's recent conference talk to bolster their 
sociopolitical views against US actions toward Iraq are obnoxiously 
wresting his ecclesiastical/doctrinal authority to support their 
perverted and hobby horse views. Wouldn't you agree?

 9.Pointing out your own history to you doesn't make one
 anti-USAmerican.

True enough. Rather, continually and disproportionately attacking US 
actions, past and present, and attaching such ideological tags as 
imperialistic and militaristic to the US, makes one anti-American, 
at least in my view.

 If you disagree with my reading of history, then prove me
 wrong, don't attack the messenger. That's the classic mistake
 of an ad hominem argument.

So when the anti-Mormons say, Those twisted Mormons get NAKED in their 
temples! And they're POLYTHEISTS, like Hindus! And they teach that Jesus 
and Satan are BROTHERS!, your response is to say, Yup, you're 
absolutely right, no arguments here? Or do you concede that the 
messenger's presentation may indeed severely color the message?

Stephen

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Jon Spencer
Does this mean that I am a nakedly polytheistic brother of Satan?

Cool!  I never thought about it that way.

But as I grow older, I have a harder and harder time twisting.  Does that
mean I will someday lose my temple recommend?

Jon

 So when the anti-Mormons say, Those twisted Mormons get NAKED in their
 temples! And they're POLYTHEISTS, like Hindus! And they teach that Jesus
 and Satan are BROTHERS!, your response is to say, Yup, you're
 absolutely right, no arguments here? Or do you concede that the
 messenger's presentation may indeed severely color the message?

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Marc wrote:

  
   Which is exactely the point made in Quigley's, _Tragedy and Hope_ and
   Skousen's, _The Naked Capitalist_, Gary Allen's, _None Dare Call It
 Consp iracy_
   and many other book.
  
 
  No it's not. They just attack ideology. There is not one mention in None
 Da re Call
  it Conspiracy or the Naked Conspiracy that I can recall (I haven't read
 Qui gley's
  book) about U.S. thwarting of the development of democracy in Cuba.

 I guess you missed the point then. All of the above mentioned books document
 how U.S. Capitalists helped various communists and communist regimes come to
 power.


Stay tuned. It wasn't just communist regimes they helped to power. They helped
*anyone* who would protect their interests, regardless of ideology. That was my
point when I said that ideological readings of history are oversimplifications.


 --
 Steven Montgomery

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler


Stephen Beecroft wrote:

 -Marc-
  Since this thread is fraying all over the place, here's a
  summary post of how I see the history of Cuba.
  [...]
  6.That things aren't even worse in Central America and the
  Caribbean are thanks to an elder of Zion, J. Reuben Clark, Jr.,
  whose Clark Memorandum diverted early 20th century attempts
  by the U.S. to become true imperialists like their British and
  French predecessors.

 Not sure how this (or any of the following points) has anything to do
 with the history of Cuba. Also, don't you think your above statement is
 an oversimplification?


I did say I was summarizing, so your question is irrelevantly tautological. What
the point has to do with the history of Cuba is that Cuba is part of Central
America and the Caribbean and the history of that region might have suffered
even more heavy-handedly than it did if it weren't for a member of the Church's
intervention in turning the USA away from a true imperialist course.


  7.I have no idea what Victor is talking about. Where does
  one get a card that says one is a liberal democrat?

 One can get that from me, for a small charge.

  Also, it's straitlaced, not straightlaced. The words have
  different meanings.

 Not according to www.m-w.com. They are listed as variant spellings of
 the same word. In any case, if you're going to be critical of spelling,
 you missed then, let's, forgiveness, afterlife, card-carrying,
 temple-going, and of course Latter-day Saint. But such things seem
 to me a case of attacking the messenger instead of the message,
 something I know you find distasteful.


Well, I don't care about what some website lists as variants.  Strait means
narrow, constricted; straight means without bends. Just go north on the water
into the Strait of Juan de Fuca or the Georgia Strait -- they're anything but
straight. My complaint was that I couldn't understand Victor. Using tools of
communications properly is an aid in understanding; it wasn't a personal attack
on Victor.


  If he means all Democrats are liberal, then I suggest he discuss
  his problem with President Faust, a registered Democrat.

 Interesting. I did not get that meaning at all from what he wrote, nor
 did it even occur to me. Perhaps Canadians just can't understand
 American political talk...


Are you saying he's not a Democrat? N. Eldon Tanner and Hugh B. Brown were
Democrats, too.


  8.An ideological approach is one where one demonizes an
  opponent by using a label in such a way as to divert one's
  attention from what actually happened in history.

 Ah. In other words, Steven's approach was ideological *because* he was
 demonizing an opponent with ideological tags, while your approach was
 clearly not ideological, since you weren't using your ideological tags
 to demonize Castro. But then, you were arguably demonizing the US. Of
 course, I expect you'd claim the US wasn't your opponent, so therefore
 it still doesn't fit your definition of an ideological approach. I'm
 just not sure I accept your definition, I guess.


Take a valium. You're reading far more into this than is intended. See my new
thread, History of Cuba.


  One of its particularly obnoxious tools, and the reason I left
  Zion-L once, is when they try to claim ecclesiastical/doctrinal
  authority for their perverted and hobby horse views.

 Again, I agree completely with this sentiment. As an example, those who
 try to leverage Elder Nelson's recent conference talk to bolster their
 sociopolitical views against US actions toward Iraq are obnoxiously
 wresting his ecclesiastical/doctrinal authority to support their
 perverted and hobby horse views. Wouldn't you agree?


Yes.


  9.Pointing out your own history to you doesn't make one
  anti-USAmerican.

 True enough. Rather, continually and disproportionately attacking US
 actions, past and present, and attaching such ideological tags as
 imperialistic and militaristic to the US, makes one anti-American,
 at least in my view.


I didn't make the US the policeman of the world.


  If you disagree with my reading of history, then prove me
  wrong, don't attack the messenger. That's the classic mistake
  of an ad hominem argument.

 So when the anti-Mormons say, Those twisted Mormons get NAKED in their
 temples! And they're POLYTHEISTS, like Hindus! And they teach that Jesus
 and Satan are BROTHERS!, your response is to say, Yup, you're
 absolutely right, no arguments here? Or do you concede that the
 messenger's presentation may indeed severely color the message?


This is similar to Steven's technique: use religious terminology to demonize
one's opponent. You can share Steven's sock -- I will not have my testimony
challenged, directly or indirectly, on the basis of nationality or political
belief. Like it or lump it, but I'm not going to be tactful anymore in responding
to this kind of spiritual harrassment.


 Stephen


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the 

Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Only if you disagree with the view of middle-class conservative USAmericans, it
would seem to me, from some of the responses to bare [ooh, there's that naughty
word again] facts of history.

Jon Spencer wrote:

 Does this mean that I am a nakedly polytheistic brother of Satan?

 Cool!  I never thought about it that way.

 But as I grow older, I have a harder and harder time twisting.  Does that
 mean I will someday lose my temple recommend?

 Jon

  So when the anti-Mormons say, Those twisted Mormons get NAKED in their
  temples! And they're POLYTHEISTS, like Hindus! And they teach that Jesus
  and Satan are BROTHERS!, your response is to say, Yup, you're
  absolutely right, no arguments here? Or do you concede that the
  messenger's presentation may indeed severely color the message?


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Steven, Cliff can speak for himself, but I for one will not be intimidated by
spiritual harrassment. My testimony is not up to you to define with idiosyncratic
and isolated proof-texts.  In any case, the claim wasn't whether Castro *said*
he'd been a Communist all his life, it's whether it was a fact or not. Naturally
by 1962 he would have said something like this because he'd signed the treaty of
friendship with the Soviet Union. This is the second time I've addressed this.
You can choose to believe me or not, but the courtesy of a response would be
appreciated, rather than just repeating the same old charge.

Just think: Cuba could have been a democracy except for your meddling.

Steven Montgomery wrote:

 At 12:25 AM 10/21/2002, you wrote:
 No, Clifford -- ask Steven to reveal his sources.

 Don't know about your sources, but I take mine from Prophets of God:

 Just a short time ago Fidel Castro broadcast to the world his boastful
 confession that he had been a hard-core communist all of his adult life. He
 gloried in the fact that he had been able to confuse and deceive many
 people simply by saying he was not a communist. And because there were
 gullible people in this and other countries who believed his false
 assertions, he was able to establish a Soviet beachhead—A communist
 satellite under active Russian control.
   (10233elder Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1962, First
 Day—Morning Meeting 15.)

 --
 Steven Montgomery
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Those of us who take note of and criticize abuses of power by the federal
 bureaucracy are often accused of being anti-government. This is not only
 untrue, it is the exact opposite of the truth. The John Birch Society and
 those
 who share our constitutionalist point of view are emphatically
 pro-government ­
 so much so, in fact, that we want to see as many governments as possible
 dividing power and responsibilities, and keeping each other in check. What we
 oppose is the alternative ­ the effective abolition of local, county, and
 state
 governments and their absorption into a monolithic federal state, which in
 turn
 would ultimately be subsumed into a global leviathan directed by the United
 Nations.--WNG The Review of the News Oct 13, 2002

 /
 ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
 ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
 /


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


  See -- he never gives up. Put a sock in it, Steven. My testimony doesn't
 de pend on
  your political views.
 
  --
  Marc A. Schindler

 Neither does my testimony depend on your political views--so what? Why don't
 you address the sources themselves rather than attack the messenger?

 --
 Steven
 Montgomery


But I'm not the one quoting general authorities in an attempt to back up my
political and historical opinions. You are. Logically speaking, you are, in
effect, challenging me to criticize Pres. Benson. I'm not going to fall into that
trap. (I take it that in your response you are the messenger and Pres. Benson
the sources?)


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Good point. Let me rephrase what I said and say explicit ideologies. See my
definition of ideology in a post I made after you wrote this one.

John W. Redelfs wrote:

 At 04:55 PM, Monday, 10/21/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote:
 Stay tuned. It wasn't just communist regimes they helped to power. They helped
 *anyone* who would protect their interests, regardless of ideology. That
 was my
 point when I said that ideological readings of history are
 oversimplifications.

 Baloney!  Unless you are a mind reader, how could you possibly know that
 they were not at least partly motivated by ideology?  --JWR


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a
coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer, nor
those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
That is fair enough. To me they are usually one and the same. An implicit
assumption on my part, I'll admit.

Steven Montgomery wrote:

 At 04:55 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote:
 Stay tuned. It wasn't just communist regimes they helped to power. They helped
 *anyone* who would protect their interests, regardless of ideology. That
 was my
 point when I said that ideological readings of history are
 oversimplifications.

 . . . and ascribing these actions by rich capitalists as merely serving
 their best interests monetarily is an oversimplification. Some people,
 Gadiaton types especially, are driven by the desire to get power--as well
 as gain.

 --
 Steven Montgomery
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Those of us who take note of and criticize abuses of power by the federal
 bureaucracy are often accused of being anti-government. This is not only
 untrue, it is the exact opposite of the truth. The John Birch Society and
 those
 who share our constitutionalist point of view are emphatically
 pro-government ­
 so much so, in fact, that we want to see as many governments as possible
 dividing power and responsibilities, and keeping each other in check. What we
 oppose is the alternative ­ the effective abolition of local, county, and
 state
 governments and their absorption into a monolithic federal state, which in
 turn
 would ultimately be subsumed into a global leviathan directed by the United
 Nations.--WNG The Review of the News Oct 13, 2002

 /
 ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
 ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
 /


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a
coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer, nor
those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

/
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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Steven Montgomery
At 06:35 PM 10/21/2002, you wrote:

Steven, Cliff can speak for himself, but I for one will not be intimidated by
spiritual harrassment. My testimony is not up to you to define with 
idiosyncratic
and isolated proof-texts.  In any case, the claim wasn't whether Castro *said*
he'd been a Communist all his life, it's whether it was a fact or not. 
Naturally
by 1962 he would have said something like this because he'd signed the 
treaty of
friendship with the Soviet Union. This is the second time I've addressed this.
You can choose to believe me or not, but the courtesy of a response would be
appreciated, rather than just repeating the same old charge.

Just think: Cuba could have been a democracy except for your meddling.

Right. And Fidel Castro was the George Washington of Cuba. NOT!

I've already showed you where there was overwhelming evidence that when 
Fidel Castro took power in January 1959 that he had been a Communist agent 
at least since 1948, when he led a bloody Communist uprising in Bogota, 
Colombia. It is common practice among revolutionaries to pretend they are 
democratic in order to help them slide into power. Once in power Castro's 
true colors came out.



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Steven Montgomery
At 06:57 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote:


But I'm not the one quoting general authorities in an attempt to back up my
political and historical opinions. You are. Logically speaking, you are, in
effect, challenging me to criticize Pres. Benson. I'm not going to fall 
into that
trap. (I take it that in your response you are the messenger and Pres. 
Benson
the sources?)


--
Marc A. Schindler

ETB knew about Castro's communist connections because both the U.S. 
Ambassadors to Cuba and Mexico warned him about the connections.  Okay, 
forget about the Benson quote. Forget I mentioned it. Perhaps it was a 
lapse of judgement on my part.

What about the other evidence that Castro was a communist?



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Steven Montgomery
At 07:36 PM 10/21/2002, you wrote:

At 06:57 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote:


But I'm not the one quoting general authorities in an attempt to back up my
political and historical opinions. You are. Logically speaking, you are, in
effect, challenging me to criticize Pres. Benson. I'm not going to fall 
into that
trap. (I take it that in your response you are the messenger and Pres. 
Benson
the sources?)


--
Marc A. Schindler

ETB knew about Castro's communist connections because both the U.S. 
Ambassadors to Cuba and Mexico warned him about the connections.  Okay, 
forget about the Benson quote. Forget I mentioned it. Perhaps it was a 
lapse of judgement on my part.

What about the other evidence that Castro was a communist?



--
Steven Montgomery

On second thought, why should I apologize for quoting ETB? After all, this 
is an LDS religious list, is it not? In your postings with the Subject 
line, Cult of Personality, you've made great noise about the fact that 
sometimes even General Authorities can disagree on political matters. Fine, 
I accept that, and believe it. Trouble is, where is the General Authority 
who disagrees with ETB regarding this particular issue, that of Fidel 
Castro being a communist? I haven't been able to find one. Perhaps there is 
a general consensus then?



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler


Steven Montgomery wrote:

 At 06:35 PM 10/21/2002, you wrote:
 Steven, Cliff can speak for himself, but I for one will not be intimidated by
 spiritual harrassment. My testimony is not up to you to define with
 idiosyncratic
 and isolated proof-texts.  In any case, the claim wasn't whether Castro *said*
 he'd been a Communist all his life, it's whether it was a fact or not.
 Naturally
 by 1962 he would have said something like this because he'd signed the
 treaty of
 friendship with the Soviet Union. This is the second time I've addressed this.
 You can choose to believe me or not, but the courtesy of a response would be
 appreciated, rather than just repeating the same old charge.
 
 Just think: Cuba could have been a democracy except for your meddling.

 Right. And Fidel Castro was the George Washington of Cuba. NOT!


Never said he was. You're evading the question I'm raising.


 I've already showed you where there was overwhelming evidence that when
 Fidel Castro took power in January 1959 that he had been a Communist agent
 at least since 1948, when he led a bloody Communist uprising in Bogota,
 Colombia. It is common practice among revolutionaries to pretend they are
 democratic in order to help them slide into power. Once in power Castro's
 true colors came out.


Straw man, Steven. I have never tried to argue that Castro is not Communist, is not
a dictator. We are talking right past each other. I'm admitting all the bad things
you are saying about him, but saying that the US had a large -- indeed, the major
-- part to play in paving the way for him to come to power. You could have
prevented it by nurturing democracy but you chose instead to nurture tyranny. I
don't care what colour you paint the giant bronze statue in the town square --
Communist red is the same as Fascist brown  or Plutocratic green and gold in my
books.


 --
 Steven Montgomery


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a
coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer, nor
those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

/
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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
What about it? When have I ever denied Castro is a Communist? His early life is
shadowy (unlike Ché Gueverra, about whom we know a fair bit), but for the sake of
argument let's agree that he was christened a Communist while a babe in arms.
What difference does that make to the point I've been trying to make that it was
US meddling that paved the way to his rise to power? I've been to Cuba, for
crying out loud -- I know what kind of a dismal place it is.

Steven Montgomery wrote:

 At 06:57 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote:

 But I'm not the one quoting general authorities in an attempt to back up my
 political and historical opinions. You are. Logically speaking, you are, in
 effect, challenging me to criticize Pres. Benson. I'm not going to fall
 into that
 trap. (I take it that in your response you are the messenger and Pres.
 Benson
 the sources?)
 
 
 --
 Marc A. Schindler

 ETB knew about Castro's communist connections because both the U.S.
 Ambassadors to Cuba and Mexico warned him about the connections.  Okay,
 forget about the Benson quote. Forget I mentioned it. Perhaps it was a
 lapse of judgement on my part.

 What about the other evidence that Castro was a communist?

 --
 Steven Montgomery
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
 selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
 politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today.
 --Steven W. Mosher

 /
 ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I think the answer to that is self-explanatory. To quote a non-GA, listen to the
sounds of silence. (Marlin K. Jensen gives a hint in his interview,
incidentally). And just so I'm not totally opaque here, I'm not talking about
your specific claim that Castro was a Communist. I don't know why this is so
difficult to get across, but I have never, from the very beginning of the thread,
argued that Castro is not a Communist. I don't think it's proven that he started
as a Communist, but I don't think it matters, either. That is not the question I
raised. You keep answering a question I'm not asking. What I am talking about is
this exact blindered approach of the ideologue -- as per the dictionary
definition I've posted. It's a dangerous approach and can lead to cultism.
Ironically, in the political arena it can also lead to results that are
diametrically opposite to what is intended.

Steven Montgomery wrote:

 At 07:36 PM 10/21/2002, you wrote:
 At 06:57 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote:
 
 But I'm not the one quoting general authorities in an attempt to back up my
 political and historical opinions. You are. Logically speaking, you are, in
 effect, challenging me to criticize Pres. Benson. I'm not going to fall
 into that
 trap. (I take it that in your response you are the messenger and Pres.
 Benson
 the sources?)
 
 
 --
 Marc A. Schindler
 
 ETB knew about Castro's communist connections because both the U.S.
 Ambassadors to Cuba and Mexico warned him about the connections.  Okay,
 forget about the Benson quote. Forget I mentioned it. Perhaps it was a
 lapse of judgement on my part.
 
 What about the other evidence that Castro was a communist?
 
 
 
 --
 Steven Montgomery

 On second thought, why should I apologize for quoting ETB? After all, this
 is an LDS religious list, is it not? In your postings with the Subject
 line, Cult of Personality, you've made great noise about the fact that
 sometimes even General Authorities can disagree on political matters. Fine,
 I accept that, and believe it. Trouble is, where is the General Authority
 who disagrees with ETB regarding this particular issue, that of Fidel
 Castro being a communist? I haven't been able to find one. Perhaps there is
 a general consensus then?

 --
 Steven Montgomery
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
 selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
 politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today.
 --Steven W. Mosher

 /
 ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
 ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
 /


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

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