Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-23 Thread Jon Spencer
Well, then, if I am on an eternal progression, how come my current house is
smaller than my previous home (although the lack of a current mortgage is a
nice by-product!).

And does this mean that I've been PO'ed? :-)

Jon

Paul Osborne wrote:

 Then, my friend, what is meant by the term eternal progression?  Are we
 being lied to?
 
 Jon


 No, we are not being lied to. You just don't understand what eternal
 progression is, Jon. It is a state of never ending progress as worlds
 come and go. The size of heavenly Father's kingdom grows with each
 passing eternity and that is great progress. :-)

 Paul O
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 
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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-23 Thread Jon Spencer
Sorry, but your stating a specific definition does not make it so.

The prophets and the scriptures tell me something different than they tell
you.

Good thing we have a prophet to sort things out for us!

And I'll bet that GBH would not think that this specific discussion was high
on his list to referee!

Jon

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

 -George-
  When God created this universe

 -Jon-
  He did not create this universe. He caused it to be organized.
  Big difference!

 The prophets and the scriptures are unanimous in declaring that God did,
 indeed, create the heavens and the earth. Cause to be organized is
 what create means, just like when you create an email or a songwriter
 creates a song. George is right in his usage.

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-23 Thread Jon Spencer
And just to add a little something, this is not what I believe we are taught
in the temple.

Jon

- Original Message -
From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law



 I agree with with Stephen.

 Paul O

 On Sat, 21 Dec 2002 18:39:41 + Stephen Beecroft
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  -George-
   When God created this universe
 
  -Jon-
   He did not create this universe. He caused it to be organized.
   Big difference!
 
  The prophets and the scriptures are unanimous in declaring that God
  did,
  indeed, create the heavens and the earth. Cause to be organized is
 
  what create means, just like when you create an email or a
  songwriter
  creates a song. George is right in his usage.
 
  Stephen
 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-23 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-George-
 When God created this universe

-Jon-
 He did not create this universe. He caused it to be organized.
 Big difference!

-Stephen-
 The prophets and the scriptures are unanimous in declaring that
 God did, indeed, create the heavens and the earth. Cause to be
 organized is what create means, just like when you create an
 email or a songwriter creates a song. George is right in his usage.

-Jon-
 Sorry, but your stating a specific definition does not make it so.

Nor does your so stating. So let's use a neutral, reliable third party's 
definition. How do the scriptures use the term create? How do the 
prophets use it? What does the dictionary say? (American or Canadian, 
your choice.)

 The prophets and the scriptures tell me something different than
 they tell you.

Impossible. One of us must not be hearing correctly. And since the 
scriptures clearly state the God created the heavens and the earth, in 
this case I don't think I'm the one with the earwax buildup...

Q-Tips, anyone?

Stephen

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-23 Thread Marc A. Schindler
No, it means you've been humbled, which is spiritual progression...

Jon Spencer wrote:

 Well, then, if I am on an eternal progression, how come my current house is
 smaller than my previous home (although the lack of a current mortgage is a
 nice by-product!).

 And does this mean that I've been PO'ed? :-)

 Jon

 Paul Osborne wrote:

  Then, my friend, what is meant by the term eternal progression?  Are we
  being lied to?
  
  Jon
 
 
  No, we are not being lied to. You just don't understand what eternal
  progression is, Jon. It is a state of never ending progress as worlds
  come and go. The size of heavenly Father's kingdom grows with each
  passing eternity and that is great progress. :-)
 
  Paul O
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  
  Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
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see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-23 Thread George Cobabe
The term eternal progression does not occur in either scripture nor early
church literature.  What does that tell us?

Is it a term like *free* agency when *moral* agency is the correct term?

George


- Original Message -
From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law


No, it means you've been humbled, which is spiritual progression...

Jon Spencer wrote:

 Well, then, if I am on an eternal progression, how come my current house
is
 smaller than my previous home (although the lack of a current mortgage is
a
 nice by-product!).

 And does this mean that I've been PO'ed? :-)

 Jon

 Paul Osborne wrote:

  Then, my friend, what is meant by the term eternal progression?  Are we
  being lied to?
  
  Jon
 
 
  No, we are not being lied to. You just don't understand what eternal
  progression is, Jon. It is a state of never ending progress as worlds
  come and go. The size of heavenly Father's kingdom grows with each
  passing eternity and that is great progress. :-)
 
  Paul O
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  
  Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
  Only $9.95 per month!
  Visit www.juno.com
 
 


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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more
people
see than weigh. - Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's
employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.


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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-23 Thread George Cobabe
Geez, I have lost track of who is arguing what and why?

The original point was that as God created/organized the world He also
created/organized the law that governed it.

To criticize me for using a word that you object to, when I capitulated and
used your word (organize) instead of the scriptural term, does not make
sense, nor does it promote careful discussion.

Why push the point?  Listen to the message given rather than the words used.
I know that words are important, but the message is even more so.

But if it is fun for you to worry about which word you insist is crucial -
go for it.

George

- Original Message -
From: Stephen Beecroft [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 9:33 PM
Subject: RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law


 -George-
  When God created this universe

 -Jon-
  He did not create this universe. He caused it to be organized.
  Big difference!

 -Stephen-
  The prophets and the scriptures are unanimous in declaring that
  God did, indeed, create the heavens and the earth. Cause to be
  organized is what create means, just like when you create an
  email or a songwriter creates a song. George is right in his usage.

 -Jon-
  Sorry, but your stating a specific definition does not make it so.

 Nor does your so stating. So let's use a neutral, reliable third party's
 definition. How do the scriptures use the term create? How do the
 prophets use it? What does the dictionary say? (American or Canadian,
 your choice.)

  The prophets and the scriptures tell me something different than
  they tell you.

 Impossible. One of us must not be hearing correctly. And since the
 scriptures clearly state the God created the heavens and the earth, in
 this case I don't think I'm the one with the earwax buildup...

 Q-Tips, anyone?

 Stephen



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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-21 Thread Jon Spencer
No, it doesn't.  You are creating doctrine that does not exist.

Apostasy alert!  Apostasy alert!  :-)

Jon

George  the Babe wrote:
 As God is, man may become by obeying the
 laws that God (created) to (allow us to) become God.
 
 Just a little change. :-) Then it becomes a truly correct statement.

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-21 Thread Jon Spencer
George the Babe wrote:

When God created this universe, and
 this world, He created the Laws by which things work, which may be the
same
 as what His Father created or they may be different.  The bottom line is
 that our Father is responsible for the Laws by which we live.

He did not create this universe. He caused it to be organized.  Big
difference!

Jon

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-21 Thread Jon Spencer
Then, my friend, what is meant by the term eternal progression?  Are we
being lied to?

Jon

Paul Osborne wrote:

 There is much to learn.  To complete the task requires an eternity on
 the job.


 Not so. When God lays his hands upon my head and ordains me God Almighty
 there will be nothing that I don't know. The learning process will have
 ended.

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-21 Thread Paul Osborne
Then, my friend, what is meant by the term eternal progression?  Are we
being lied to?

Jon


No, we are not being lied to. You just don't understand what eternal
progression is, Jon. It is a state of never ending progress as worlds
come and go. The size of heavenly Father's kingdom grows with each
passing eternity and that is great progress. :-)

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-21 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-George-
 When God created this universe

-Jon-
 He did not create this universe. He caused it to be organized.
 Big difference!

The prophets and the scriptures are unanimous in declaring that God did, 
indeed, create the heavens and the earth. Cause to be organized is 
what create means, just like when you create an email or a songwriter 
creates a song. George is right in his usage.

Stephen

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-21 Thread Paul Osborne

I agree with with Stephen.

Paul O

On Sat, 21 Dec 2002 18:39:41 + Stephen Beecroft
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 -George-
  When God created this universe
 
 -Jon-
  He did not create this universe. He caused it to be organized.
  Big difference!
 
 The prophets and the scriptures are unanimous in declaring that God 
 did, 
 indeed, create the heavens and the earth. Cause to be organized is 
 
 what create means, just like when you create an email or a 
 songwriter 
 creates a song. George is right in his usage.
 
 Stephen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-21 Thread John W. Redelfs
Jon Spencer favored us with:

Then, my friend, what is meant by the term eternal progression?  Are we
being lied to?


Even though God is truly omniscient, and hence knows EVERYTHING and can no 
longer learn new things, he progresses by bringing to pass the immortality 
and eternal life of his children.  His progression will continue forever 
inasmuch as his posterity will continue forever.  This is the doctrine 
taught by Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce R. McConkie, and many others among 
the Brethren during this past century.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
Laurie got offended that I used the word puke. But to
me, that's what her dinner tasted like. --Jack Handy
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-21 Thread John W. Redelfs
Stephen Beecroft favored us with:

The prophets and the scriptures are unanimous in declaring that God did,
indeed, create the heavens and the earth. Cause to be organized is
what create means, just like when you create an email or a songwriter
creates a song. George is right in his usage.


Not when he uses it to mean create from nothing which is how the world uses 
the term.  --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-21 Thread George Cobabe
Jon, there is no difference.  In our theology creation means to organize.
At least that is what I meant. :-)

However, He was still the one that organized the Law for this universe.

George


- Original Message -
From: Jon Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law


 George the Babe wrote:

 When God created this universe, and
  this world, He created the Laws by which things work, which may be the
 same
  as what His Father created or they may be different.  The bottom line is
  that our Father is responsible for the Laws by which we live.

 He did not create this universe. He caused it to be organized.  Big
 difference!

 Jon



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RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-20 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 20:41 12/19/2002 +, Gib Mij wrote:


Paul Osborne wrote:
---
Not so. When God lays his hands upon my head and ordains me God Almighty
there will be nothing that I don't know. The learning process will have
ended.
---

Yes, and I certainly hope you will have completed your 
home*[teaching]*work by then!


Till who inserted his editorial above 8))

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-20 Thread John W. Redelfs
Paul Osborne favored us with:

Not so. When God lays his hands upon my head and ordains me God Almighty
there will be nothing that I don't know. The learning process will have
ended.


This is correct.  --JWR

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RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-19 Thread John W. Redelfs
Jim Cobabe favored us with:

He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all
things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all
things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and
all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever.

And again, verily I say unto you, he hath given a law unto all things,
by which they move in their times and their seasons;(DC 88:41-42)


Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.3, OMNIPOTENT GOD; OMNIPRESENCE OF GOD; 
OMNISCIENCE OF GOD

However, the Church does not understand this term in the traditional sense 
of absoluteness, and, on the authority of modern revelation, rejects the 
classical doctrine of creation out of nothing. It affirms, rather, that 
there are actualities that are coeternal with the persons of the Godhead, 
INCLUDING ELEMENTS, INTELLIGENCE, AND LAW (DC 93:29, 33, 35: 88:34-40). 
Omnipotence, therefore, cannot coherently be understood as absolutely 
unlimited power. That view is internally self-contradictory and, given the 
fact that evil and suffering are real, not reconcilable with God's 
omnibenevolence or loving kindness (see Theodicy).

DC 93:29
 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of 
truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Bibliography:
Roberts, B. H. The Doctrine of Deity. Seventy's Course in Theology, third 
year. Salt Lake City, 1910.
---

Redelfs' Commentary:  God became God by obedience to pre-existing, 
coeternal law.  And if we are to become Gods we must follow the same path 
that he took.  The idea that God made up the laws by which he became God is 
a Protestant idea.  It is not the gospel.

John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest --Joseph
Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248
***
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-19 Thread George Cobabe
Redelfs' Commentary:  God became God by obedience to pre-existing,
coeternal law.  And if we are to become Gods we must follow the same path
that he took.  The idea that God made up the laws by which he became God is
a Protestant idea.  It is not the gospel.

I do not believe that anyone is suggesting that God make up the law by which
He became God.  That is, of course, nonsense, His Father created the laws by
which our Father lived his mortal life.  When God created this universe, and
this world, He created the Laws by which things work, which may be the same
as what His Father created or they may be different.  The bottom line is
that our Father is responsible for the Laws by which we live.

My earlier, rather lengthy, post suggested several reasons, in the quotes
provided, why many people agree with the idea that our God is uniquely
responsible for the laws by which we must operate.  What did you think of
their arguments?

George



- Original Message -
From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 1:18 AM
Subject: RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law


 Jim Cobabe favored us with:
 He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all
 things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all
 things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and
 all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever.
 
 And again, verily I say unto you, he hath given a law unto all things,
 by which they move in their times and their seasons;(DC 88:41-42)

 Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.3, OMNIPOTENT GOD; OMNIPRESENCE OF GOD;
 OMNISCIENCE OF GOD

 However, the Church does not understand this term in the traditional sense
 of absoluteness, and, on the authority of modern revelation, rejects the
 classical doctrine of creation out of nothing. It affirms, rather, that
 there are actualities that are coeternal with the persons of the Godhead,
 INCLUDING ELEMENTS, INTELLIGENCE, AND LAW (DC 93:29, 33, 35: 88:34-40).
 Omnipotence, therefore, cannot coherently be understood as absolutely
 unlimited power. That view is internally self-contradictory and, given the
 fact that evil and suffering are real, not reconcilable with God's
 omnibenevolence or loving kindness (see Theodicy).

 DC 93:29
   29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of
 truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

 Bibliography:
 Roberts, B. H. The Doctrine of Deity. Seventy's Course in Theology,
third
 year. Salt Lake City, 1910.
 ---

 Redelfs' Commentary:  God became God by obedience to pre-existing,
 coeternal law.  And if we are to become Gods we must follow the same path
 that he took.  The idea that God made up the laws by which he became God
is
 a Protestant idea.  It is not the gospel.

 John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ***
 ...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest --Joseph
 Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248
 ***
 All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR



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RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-19 Thread Tom Matkin


Mij wrote:

The idea, as Joseph Smith might say, feels good to
 me. 

Didn't Joseph talk about how truth tasted good to him?  That was
provocative enough for me to remember it. Maybe he said feels good
too.


Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843-44, p.354

Quote (emphasis added):

The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself,
finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more
intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a
privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God
places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to
institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be
exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another,
and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is
requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.

This is good doctrine. It *tastes good*. I can *taste* the principles of
eternal life, and so can you. They are given to my by the revelations of
Jesus Christ; and I know that when I tell you these words of eternal
life as they are given to me, *you taste them*, and I know that you
believe them. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also *taste*
the spirit of eternal life. I know it is good; and when I tell you of
these things which were given my by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you
are bound to receive them as sweet, and rejoice more and more.
 
Close Quote

Tom

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RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-19 Thread Jim Cobabe

Tom Matkin wrote:
---
Didn't Joseph talk about how truth tasted good to him?  That was
provocative enough for me to remember it. Maybe he said feels good
too.
---


In Lehi's Tree of Life vision he declares that the fruit of the tree is 
most desirable and sweet.

Alma's discourse on faith (Alma 32) also uses this metaphor.

And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the 
word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by 
ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet 
above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, 
yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit 
even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.

Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your 
diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to 
bring forth fruit unto you.

(Alma 32:42-43.)

---
Mij Ebaboc

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-19 Thread Paul Osborne
Redelfs' Commentary:  God became God by obedience to pre-existing, 
coeternal law.  And if we are to become Gods we must follow the same
path 
that he took.  The idea that God made up the laws by which he became God
is 
a Protestant idea.  It is not the gospel.


Amen! 

I can see that John has it figured out. I couldn't have said it better my
self.

:-)

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-19 Thread Jim Cobabe

Paul Osborne wrote:
---
Not so. When God lays his hands upon my head and ordains me God Almighty 
there will be nothing that I don't know. The learning process will have 
ended.
---

Yes, and I certainly hope you will have completed your homework by then! 
 :-)

---
Mij Ebaboc

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-18 Thread Marc A. Schindler


Jim Cobabe wrote:

 I think it is not doctrinal to assert that Heavenly Father is subject
 to natural law in the same sense that we are.  To put it thus
 incorrectly reverses the attribution of cause.


Ah, there's a crucial difference there: that we are. I would agree with your
modified statement, but then that's not quite what I wrote originally. We don't
know what it means to say that God is subject to natural law because we are only
beginning to understand the laws that govern our realm, let alone any realm that
transcends ours. But the statement itself, without the qualification, is from
Joseph Smith.


 God decreed the laws of the universe, and sustains them by the word of
 His power--the laws are subordinate to Him.  They are becase He is.  He
 acts in a manner consistent with the laws of His own decree, not because
 He is subject to natural law, but because natural laws are _His_
 laws.


Hmm, I'll have to think about that one. I'm not sure I'd agree with your statement
as it's written. I think he's subject to a natural law that is higher than the
ones we're subject to. But he's still subject to *some* kind of natural law. A
parallel is our unique claim that spirit is refined matter. That means it's
matter, but it's not what Paul would call corruptible, but rather
incorruptible. What does that mean? We don't really know yet.


 He is the ultimate source--not a subject.


This is where you can fall into a word trap if you're not careful. St. Anselm is
best known for what's known in philosophy as the ontological argument for the
existence of God. But Anselm believed in creatio ex nihilo and that God was the
prime mover. His argument was that for our world to have come into being, there
had to be a being behind its creation. But we don't believe in this -- we
certainly believe God created the world, I'm not disputing that, but we don't
believe God is the ultimate cause in the philosophical sense. We believe that
God was once as we are, which implies all kinds of things. Those implications,
which many early brethren speculated about, are exactly that: speculations. But
it's clear that we do not share the Roman church's philosophical foundations with
respect to the nature of God.


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-18 Thread George Cobabe
Give me some time John and I think I can demonstrate that this is not
necessarily so.

George

- Original Message -
From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law


 Jim Cobabe favored us with:
 I think it is not doctrinal to assert that Heavenly Father is subject
 to natural law in the same sense that we are.  To put it thus
 incorrectly reverses the attribution of cause.
 
 God decreed the laws of the universe, and sustains them by the word of
 His power--the laws are subordinate to Him.  They are becase He is.  He
 acts in a manner consistent with the laws of His own decree, not because
 He is subject to natural law, but because natural laws are _His_
 laws.

 It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which Heavenly
 Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him.  They are
 uncreate.  And it was by obedience to these laws that he because
 God.  Remember, he was once a mortal man.  The idea that he made all the
 laws included those by which he progressed to become a God is a Protestant
 idea.  It is akin to creating something from nothing, which of course is
 impossible even for God.


 John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ***
 ...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest --Joseph
 Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248
 ***
 All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR



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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-18 Thread Marc A. Schindler
You've said it much more coherently and succinctly than I did. Thanks. As I've
explained in a separate post to Stephen, it depends on what you mean by natural
law. There are, I think, two connotations, one an earthly (corruptible) sense
and one an eternal (incorruptible) sense, but not magic -- that's
Protestantism, as you rightly point out.

John W. Redelfs wrote:

 It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which Heavenly
 Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him.  They are
 uncreate.  And it was by obedience to these laws that he because
 God.  Remember, he was once a mortal man.  The idea that he made all the
 laws included those by which he progressed to become a God is a Protestant
 idea.  It is akin to creating something from nothing, which of course is
 impossible even for God.


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-18 Thread Marc A. Schindler
We'll give you enough time for you and JWR to become gods, but no longer. We're an
impatient bunch, ya know...

George Cobabe wrote:

 Give me some time John and I think I can demonstrate that this is not
 necessarily so.

 George

 - Original Message -
 From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 7:23 PM
 Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

  Jim Cobabe favored us with:
  I think it is not doctrinal to assert that Heavenly Father is subject
  to natural law in the same sense that we are.  To put it thus
  incorrectly reverses the attribution of cause.
  
  God decreed the laws of the universe, and sustains them by the word of
  His power--the laws are subordinate to Him.  They are becase He is.  He
  acts in a manner consistent with the laws of His own decree, not because
  He is subject to natural law, but because natural laws are _His_
  laws.
 
  It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which Heavenly
  Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him.  They are
  uncreate.  And it was by obedience to these laws that he because
  God.  Remember, he was once a mortal man.  The idea that he made all the
  laws included those by which he progressed to become a God is a Protestant
  idea.  It is akin to creating something from nothing, which of course is
  impossible even for God.
 
 
  John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  ***
  ...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest --Joseph
  Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248
  ***
  All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
 
 
 
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RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-18 Thread Jim Cobabe

John W. Redelfs wrote:
---
The idea that he made all the laws included those by which he progressed 
to become a God is a Protestant idea.  It is akin to creating something 
from nothing, which of course is impossible even for God.
---

One of the problems we encounter in discussing such ideas is the inertia 
of a massive Catholic and Protestant lexicon, which intrudes everywhere 
with false ideas and distortions of the truth.  The omni words are 
overburdened in this sense, and it would probably simplify things if we 
just abandoned them and coined our own ideosyncratic terms with our 
own unique definitions.

Joseph Smith's teachings clearly indicate that our spirits were 
coeternal with God, from before the beginning of time, but that God 
instituted the laws in the premortal world which constitute for us the 
plan of salvation.  These are the natural laws to which I make 
reference.

God himself, the Prophet says, finding he was in the midst of spirits 
and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws 
whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The 
relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in 
knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker 
intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might 
have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, powers, glory, and 
intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of 
spirits. (Teachings, p. 354.) 

Thus the plan of salvation (of redemption, and of exaltation) comprises 
all of the laws, ordinances, principles, and doctrines by conformity to 
which the spirit offspring of God have power to progress to the high 
state of exaltation enjoyed by the Father.
 (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed. [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 
1966], 575.)

He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all 
things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all 
things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and 
all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever.

And again, verily I say unto you, he hath given a law unto all things, 
by which they move in their times and their seasons;(DC 88:41-42)

---
Mij Ebaboc

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-18 Thread Paul Osborne
God does what his Father did before him...

Paul O
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RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-18 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-John-
 It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which
 Heavenly Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him.
 They are uncreate.  And it was by obedience to these laws that
 he because God.

My understanding follows Jim's quotation of Joseph Smith's teachings and 
of the scriptures; that God *instituted laws* among us. Whether those 
laws were pre-existent or not seems of little import. Remember, Marc's 
comment was that God is subject to 'natural law'. This is demonstrably 
untrue; God is above nature, has created nature, and has instituted her 
laws.

Physicists now postulate that our universe was born perhaps 13 billion 
years ago, and that the laws of physics that we observe came into being 
at that point. If this is the case, then since we Latter-day Saints 
consider God to have been the creator of this universe, we could 
certainly imagine that he might have chosen whatever other set of 
physical laws to exist instead. We might also imagine that, as creator 
of the universe, he exists in such a state as to be able to effect 
whatever changes in it that he sees fit -- that is, he is above the 
universe, not subject to it. He could, for example, travel faster than 
light, an event that doesn't even have a well-defined meaning to us.

I don't pretend the above is LDS doctrine. Rather, it is compatible with 
LDS doctrine, and is the closest I can come to reconciling doctrinal 
truth with scientific understanding. In any case, I feel quite sure that 
God is the Lawgiver, the creator of the universe, the God of nature, and 
thus to claim that he is subject to 'natural law' is incorrect.

 The idea that he made all the laws included those by which he
 progressed to become a God is a Protestant idea.

Hardly. Protestantism rejects as blasphemous the very idea that God 
pregressed to become a God, so they certainly have no opinion on 
whether he created the laws that led to that exaltation! Besides, the 
laws governing God's exaltation are not the point under discussion; 
rather, we're talking about natural law and whether God is subject to 
it.

Stephen

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-18 Thread Marc A. Schindler


Stephen Beecroft wrote:

 -John-
  It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which
  Heavenly Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him.
  They are uncreate.  And it was by obedience to these laws that
  he because God.

 My understanding follows Jim's quotation of Joseph Smith's teachings and
 of the scriptures; that God *instituted laws* among us. Whether those
 laws were pre-existent or not seems of little import. Remember, Marc's
 comment was that God is subject to 'natural law'. This is demonstrably
 untrue; God is above nature, has created nature, and has instituted her
 laws.


It's not demonstrably untrue; I went on to explain that the term had two meanings,
and quoted James E. Talmage and Joseph Fielding Smith to illustrate.


 He could, for example, travel faster than
 light, an event that doesn't even have a well-defined meaning to us.


That's my point about telestial law. As Pres. Smith said, he has access to laws we
don't understand. But that doesn't make them any less laws.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-18 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Jim, as one hammer to another, you have hit the nail right on the head: these
words have baggage that we have to be wary of. I don't think any of us here are
really disagreeing with each  other in substance (to use another word full of
ancient baggage), but only in semantics.

Jim Cobabe wrote:

 John W. Redelfs wrote:
 ---
 The idea that he made all the laws included those by which he progressed
 to become a God is a Protestant idea.  It is akin to creating something
 from nothing, which of course is impossible even for God.
 ---

 One of the problems we encounter in discussing such ideas is the inertia
 of a massive Catholic and Protestant lexicon, which intrudes everywhere
 with false ideas and distortions of the truth.  The omni words are
 overburdened in this sense, and it would probably simplify things if we
 just abandoned them and coined our own ideosyncratic terms with our
 own unique definitions.

 Joseph Smith's teachings clearly indicate that our spirits were
 coeternal with God, from before the beginning of time, but that God
 instituted the laws in the premortal world which constitute for us the
 plan of salvation.  These are the natural laws to which I make
 reference.

 God himself, the Prophet says, finding he was in the midst of spirits
 and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws
 whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The
 relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in
 knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker
 intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might
 have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, powers, glory, and
 intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of
 spirits. (Teachings, p. 354.)

 Thus the plan of salvation (of redemption, and of exaltation) comprises
 all of the laws, ordinances, principles, and doctrines by conformity to
 which the spirit offspring of God have power to progress to the high
 state of exaltation enjoyed by the Father.
  (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed. [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft,
 1966], 575.)

 He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all
 things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all
 things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and
 all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever.

 And again, verily I say unto you, he hath given a law unto all things,
 by which they move in their times and their seasons;(DC 88:41-42)

 ---
 Mij Ebaboc

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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-18 Thread George Cobabe
  I  can agree that God is subject to 'natural law, but only in the sense
that He has created those laws and needs to maintain the integrity to obey
the same rules that He has created.  If He did not honor His word or His law
He would cease to be God.

George

- Original Message -
From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 10:19 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law




Stephen Beecroft wrote:

 -John-
  It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which
  Heavenly Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him.
  They are uncreate.  And it was by obedience to these laws that
  he because God.

 My understanding follows Jim's quotation of Joseph Smith's teachings and
 of the scriptures; that God *instituted laws* among us. Whether those
 laws were pre-existent or not seems of little import. Remember, Marc's
 comment was that God is subject to 'natural law'. This is demonstrably
 untrue; God is above nature, has created nature, and has instituted her
 laws.


It's not demonstrably untrue; I went on to explain that the term had two
meanings,
and quoted James E. Talmage and Joseph Fielding Smith to illustrate.


 He could, for example, travel faster than
 light, an event that doesn't even have a well-defined meaning to us.


That's my point about telestial law. As Pres. Smith said, he has access to
laws we
don't understand. But that doesn't make them any less laws.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more
people
see than weigh. - Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's
employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.


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RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

2002-12-18 Thread Jim Cobabe

John,

I'm honestly not trying to promote Protestant doctrine.  But there are 
obviously some issues here that merit further consideration.

I am sure you realize that we are not necessarily covering new ground in 
any of our discussions on this list.  I have little doubt that the 
people of this world have been striving to learn the true nature of 
Heavenly Father since Adam was expelled from the Garden.

There is much to learn.  To complete the task requires an eternity on 
the job.

---
Mij Ebaboc

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