Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-12 Thread Stacy Smith
Except for the fact that there are probably many Latter-day Saints who are 
just as likely going terrestrial as well.

Stacy.

At 04:51 PM 12/05/2002 -0900, you wrote:

After much pondering, Paul Osborne favored us with:

I look at it this way:

There are two kinds of Christians; those who have the fullness and those
who don't.

Celestial Christians = Latter-day Saints
Terrestrial Christians = Baptists, Catholics, and the rest

In this way we can believe our General Authorities when they refer to
other churches as Christians and still have the title of true
Christians all to ourselves.

How about that, JWR?


Sounds good to me.  I still prefer the terms true Christian and false 
Christian.  It stirs up more discussion.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday
School and seminary classes every fourth year. This
four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by
Church members in their personal and family study. We
need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get
a man nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by
any other book. (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988)
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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-10 Thread John W. Redelfs
Gary Smith favored us with:

No, it isn't a straw man. It is exactly my point. Just where does a
mortal being draw the line between what is a 'true' Christian and what
isn't? Your definition keeps shifting on me. You said it was someone who
fully followed Christ and his living prophets.


Nope.  The word fully is yours, not mine.  And when you use it, you are 
creating a straw man.  --JWR

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RE: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-06 Thread Chet

Marc A. Schindler wrote:
 Perhaps we need two different definitions: Christ-like, and Christian?

Either you're being ironic (in which case, congratulations for such a 
clever pun!) or you're feeling just as frustrated as I.  We should avoid 
labels, it is true, but we do need terms and definitions so we know what 
we're talking about.

Over on Scott Adams' site and in his Dilbert Newsletter, he refers to 
dull-witted people as inDUHviduals.  We obviously need some similar 
term for those who stubbornly refuse the fullness, preferring to pick 
and choose from the Gospel and commandments, but who are still good and 
fine people.  Terrestial may be the best term we have (the Lord 
certainly doesn't seem shy about using the term) but it sure sounds 
condescending.  (The Lord is permitted to sound condescending because, 
let's face it, he's pretty darned superior to us.)


*jeep!
  --Chet
Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you 
are doing the impossible.

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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-06 Thread Marc A. Schindler


Chet wrote:

 Marc A. Schindler wrote:
  Perhaps we need two different definitions: Christ-like, and Christian?

 Either you're being ironic (in which case, congratulations for such a
 clever pun!) or you're feeling just as frustrated as I.  We should avoid
 labels, it is true, but we do need terms and definitions so we know what
 we're talking about.


A bit of both, actually.



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RE: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-05 Thread Chet

Gary Smith wrote:
 So, until you get your eating habit under control, you aren't following
 the DC, and this means you aren't a true Christian because you aren't
 following the prophets? I definitely wouldn't be considered one under
 your definition, either, since there are many things I struggle with and
 do not follow perfectly. 

I didn't see anything in John's definition indicating a true Christian 
follows Christ and those he sends PERFECTLY.  By definition, a Christian 
is a sinner in need of repentance -- but is a person who recognizes 
their imperiled condition and admits it.  But a true Christian DOES need 
to follow Christ, no matter how weakly or how often he/she falls down 
and has to be helped up again.

A not-so-true Christian would profess to follow Christ and then not even 
try to follow him or those he sends.  A not-so-true would even reject 
many of the words of Christ, ignoring those which are too difficult for 
whatever reason.  A not-so-true (I may have coined a new and useful term 
here) would certainly be more concerned about social pressures than 
about following the fullness of the gospel.

Here's a wonderful example:  my mother-in-law is one of the most 
wonderful people God ever sent to Earth.  She has suffered much (mostly 
due to here LOUSY choices in husbands) and has given much.  She has a 
firm belief in the Book of Mormon and a testimony that his church is 
true.  But for the past 12 years, she has not joined the church.  
Initially, it was because her then-husband threatened her and the bishop 
with his pistol.  Since then, it's been because it would be bad for 
business, her other daughter (Cherie's sister) would have a hard time 
with it, etc, etc, etc.

Ma certainly loves Christ.  But she doesn't love him enough to sacrifice 
All Things.  Does this make her a Christian who avoids hard doctrine (as 
many did who fell away from Jesus when he preached hard doctrine)?  Does 
this make her a not-so-true Christian?

What about Latter-day Saints who are not willing to sacrifice All 
Things?

What if Abraham had not been willing to sacrifice All Things?

It's tough, this following Christ thing.  Even his apostles kept 
falling asleep on the job.  

And I really can't see how one can follow Christ and reject him when his 
teachings get too tough and still consider oneself a Christian.  But I 
don't have to figure that out (though it puzzles me) because that's NOT 
MY JOB.  I have too much concern about following him myself, and 
following whenever I come across hard doctrine which requires sacrifice 
or which I don't understand.


*jeep!
  --Chet
Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you 
are doing the impossible.

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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-05 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with:

So, until you get your eating habit under control, you aren't following
the DC, and this means you aren't a true Christian because you aren't
following the prophets? I definitely wouldn't be considered one under
your definition, either, since there are many things I struggle with and
do not follow perfectly.

JWR:
 A Christian, by my definition, is one who follows Christ.  And since it 
is impossible to follow Christ without following those whom Christ has 
sent to lead, namely President Hinckley, all nonmembers and many members 
do not qualify as true Christians. --JWR

Here you are committing two errors in your logic.  First, you are taking my 
position to an extreme that I never intended.  Second, you are setting up a 
straw man in doing so by assuming something that I never said.  I never 
said that a person had to follow the prophets perfectly to be a true Christian.

When a person rejects the authorized messengers whom the Savior has sent, 
he is rejecting the Savior.  It is the same.  Who are these authorize 
messengers?  I speak of our missionaries, prophets and apostles.

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-05 Thread Mark Gregson

 Regardless, in 1836 when the revelation was given, Alvin still had not
 been baptized, but was considered by God good enough to be in a vision of
 the Celestial Kingdom. This tells me that the man was accepted as a
 'true' Christian.

I have no idea what God condsiders a true Christian (or rather, how true one has to 
be before one is true enough).

Alvin was clearly a very good man.  He believed Joseph Smith and encouraged him.  
Nonetheless your logic does not follow.  The vision was of the future.  If you saw a 
currently wicked person in a vision in the Celestial Kingdom would you say that they 
were a sufficiently good Christian?  No, you would say that the person will repent 
sometime in the future and thus be admitted.  Clearly, what Joseph Smith saw coupled 
with other revelation shows that Alvin would be admitted to the Celestial Kingdom 
because he was righteous _and_ someone would do his temple work.

What do we know about being a true Christian?  Not much, really, because God has never 
revealed any definition for true Christian.  He has given the requirements for 
entering the Celestial Kingdom, however, and if you want that to be your definition of 
true then fine.  It doesn't mean that one is perfectly keeping all the commandments 
here in this life.  By the revealed requirements in DC 76 and elsewhere, there are 
probably very many living now who qualify.

=  Mark Gregson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  =


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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-05 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 08:37 12/5/2002 -0900, BLT scares us all:


--- Mark Gregson ---
Joseph Smith had the vision in 1836 in the Kirtland temple.  In the
vision he saw his father, mother and Alvin in the celestial kingdom.
However, his father and mother were still alive when Joseph Smith had the
vision.  Therefore, the vision was of the future, after Alvin's temple
work would have been completed.  No one enters the Celestial Kingdom
without baptism if they die after reaching the age of accountability.


In my view, Mark is right.  And Gary is still determined to avoid that 
fact that hell, whatever that means, is going to be a crowded place since 
few will find the narrow way that leads to life.


Oh, man, I HATE crowds.  Guess I'd better get busy.


Till the scurrying

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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-05 Thread Paul Osborne
There can be no real and true Christianity, even with good works, unless
we are deeply and personally committed to the reality of Jesus Christ as
the Only Begotten Son of the Father, who bought us, who purchased us in
the great act of atonement.

Spencer W. Kimball, “The Savior—The Center of Our Lives,” Tambuli, Dec.
1979, 1

Paul O
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-05 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with:

You are thinking of the short mortal term we live in. All will bow the
knee and profess Christ as Lord. The majority of them will eventually
accept Christ, and though they may not merit the Celestial Kingdom, they
still will accept the gospel someday. It is just that they will not have
the ability to live all of the gospel, and so will not be celestial
material. Even we will have to go through a perfecting and learning
period before receiving godhood (DC 130). If one must be exalted before
being a true Christian, then no one (not even Christ) was a true
Christian as a mortal.


I do not believe that eventually the majority of them will accept Christ, 
nor do I believe you can establish this claim as scriptural.

On the contrary, Jesus said:

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate; for wide is the gate, and broad is the 
way, which leadeth to destruction, and many there be who go in thereat;

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto 
life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but 
inwardly they are ravening wolves. (3 Nephi 14:13-15)

How do you get majority from this?  It clearly says that most people will 
not find the narrow way that leads to life.

And if the various ministers and professional clergymen of other churches 
are not false prophets, then who are the false prophets?

You know.  I think our disagreement on this and related issues stems from 
your desire to see everyone, or almost everyone saved.  I don't think this 
is a righteous desire.  It denies the concept of moral agency and the fact 
that many will choose the wrong.  Only when we realize that keeping the 
commandments, including baptism, is the only road to salvation, do we have 
a good reason for keeping them.

The scriptures do clearly establish that those who believe in Christ, and 
receive an authorized baptism will be saved, and those who do not will be 
damned.  This teaching that most people will be saved is not 
scriptural.  If you think that it is, please show me your supporting 
evidence from scripture and the teachings of the modern prophets.

John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest --Joseph
Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248
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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-05 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 09:49 12/5/2002 -0900, BLT wondered :


For years we referred to those outside the Church as gentiles.  Then 
that word wasn't good enough, so we stated saying nonmember.  Even that 
term is considered too politically incorrect.  So what do we call them today?



Lost


Till the ever helpful

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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-05 Thread Paul Osborne
I look at it this way:

There are two kinds of Christians; those who have the fullness and those
who don't.

Celestial Christians = Latter-day Saints
Terrestrial Christians = Baptists, Catholics, and the rest

In this way we can believe our General Authorities when they refer to
other churches as Christians and still have the title of true
Christians all to ourselves.

How about that, JWR?

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-05 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Perhaps we need two different definitions: Christ-like, and Christian?

John W. Redelfs wrote:

 After much pondering, Mark Gregson favored us with:
 What do we know about being a true Christian?  Not much, really, because
 God has never revealed any definition for true Christian.  He has given
 the requirements for entering the Celestial Kingdom, however, and if you
 want that to be your definition of true then fine.  It doesn't mean that
 one is perfectly keeping all the commandments here in this life.  By the
 revealed requirements in DC 76 and elsewhere, there are probably very
 many living now who qualify.

 This thread has gone further than I ever intended. I know there are many
 wonderful, kind, and unselfish people in the world.  I was not referring to
 them.  I was addressing those who claim that Mormons aren't Christians.

 For years we referred to those outside the Church as gentiles.  Then that
 word wasn't good enough, so we stated saying nonmember.  Even that term
 is considered too politically incorrect.  So what do we call them today?

 Bruce R. McConkie frequently spoke of apostate Christendom to refer to
 non-Mormon Christians.  He also used the word sectarian.  I've thought
 that potential members might work.  How about future
 investigators?  Brothers and sisters might also work.  I have often
 preferred traditional Christian as opposed to nontraditional Christian.

 But to those who want to call us a cult and say that we aren't Christians,
 I want to make it perfectly clear that it is they who are not
 Christians.  Only one church on earth teaches true Christianity, and it
 isn't the anti-Mormons or the traditional Christians that support them in
 their work.

 John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ===
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 intellectuals --Uncle Bob
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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-05 Thread Marc A. Schindler
potential converts. :-)

Elmer L. Fairbank wrote:

 At 09:49 12/5/2002 -0900, BLT wondered :

 For years we referred to those outside the Church as gentiles.  Then
 that word wasn't good enough, so we stated saying nonmember.  Even that
 term is considered too politically incorrect.  So what do we call them today?

 Lost

 Till the ever helpful

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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-05 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Paul Osborne favored us with:

I look at it this way:

There are two kinds of Christians; those who have the fullness and those
who don't.

Celestial Christians = Latter-day Saints
Terrestrial Christians = Baptists, Catholics, and the rest

In this way we can believe our General Authorities when they refer to
other churches as Christians and still have the title of true
Christians all to ourselves.

How about that, JWR?


Sounds good to me.  I still prefer the terms true Christian and false 
Christian.  It stirs up more discussion.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday
School and seminary classes every fourth year. This
four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by
Church members in their personal and family study. We
need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get
a man nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by
any other book. (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988)
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-03 Thread Jon Spencer
Some of my best friends do these things!

Jon

John W. Redelfs wrote:

 After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with:
 To add to this perspective, how many people who claim to be true
Christians:
 
 1.  Visit the sick.
 2.  Visit people in prison.
 3.  When they have a feast they invite the halt, lame and the blind.

 I have met many saints who do these things.  --JWR

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RE: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-02 Thread Chet

Stacy Smith wrote:
 To add to this perspective, how many people who claim to be true 
 Christians:
 
 1.  Visit the sick.

Regularly.  Of course, some of them weren't sick before I arrived.

 2.  Visit people in prison.

I visit people in political office and members of the Southern Baptist 
church, each of which constitutes a prison.  I have visited people in 
official government prison, but they objected to my sample case of 
hacksaws and files.

 3.  When they have a feast they invite the halt, lame and the blind.
 
I've been invited to several feasts this year, but haven't held one in 
years - at those, several lame and blind attended.  Still haven't 
figured out what halt means, unless it refers to stammering and 
talking like Jimmy Stewart.  In which case, I qualify as lame AND halt.

Of course, I could mention that the aforementioned politicians and 
Southern Baptists are blind.


*jeep!
  --Chet
Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you 
are doing the impossible.

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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-02 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with:

If we only go by that definition, then those living up to the only light 
they know and following Christ all the way to the best of their ability 
cannot be considered Christians.  I think I'd have a problem with 
that.  Can they go to the celestial kingdom?  Maybe, in some cases.  Can 
they progress to the highest level?  No.

According to the official doctrines of the Church, no one will inherit the 
Celestial Kingdom without an authorized baptism which may be performed by 
proxy for the dead for those who did not have a chance to be baptized in 
mortality.  The rest of us must be properly baptized here.  Baptism is not 
merely desirable.  It is essential for those who seek the Celestial 
Kingdom.  There will be no one in the Celestial Kingdom except baptized 
members of the Church, and only some of them.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-02 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with:

To add to this perspective, how many people who claim to be true Christians:

1.  Visit the sick.
2.  Visit people in prison.
3.  When they have a feast they invite the halt, lame and the blind.


I have met many saints who do these things.  --JWR

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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-02 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with:

Maybe someday I can become a true Christian in John's definition. Until
then, I'm glad that Christ accepts me with all the shades of gray and
excess baggage I carry with me.


You are already a true Christian by my definition.  You follow Christ, or 
try to, by following his Prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley.  Those who do not try 
to follow Jesus Christ and his Prophet are not true Christians.  They may 
be kind, loving, generous, unselfish, etc. but they are not true Christians.

John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-02 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with:

So, before any of us less than perfect people try to proclaim such a
strong statement as some have given, how about defining just which one of
these definitions you are using. Otherwise, you are painting with a very
broad brush against those who Christ himself may consider his children.


A Christian, by my definition, is one who follows Christ.  And since it is 
impossible to follow Christ without following those whom Christ has sent to 
lead, namely President Hinckley, all nonmembers and many members do not 
qualify as true Christians. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-02 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with:

I recall Joseph Smith having a vision (could it be in DC 137?), where he
sees his non-baptized brother Alvin in the Celestial Kingdom. Alvin is
obviously considered a 'true Christian' even though he has not yet been
baptized.


Alvin was was most certainly baptized by proxy for the dead.  The point is 
still valid that only those who are baptized members of the Church may 
obtain the Celestial Kingdom.  This is a hard teaching for those who have 
loved ones who reject the restored gospel.

I would imagine that this largesse by Christ would be given to others, 
such as Marc's grandmother, if they are living great lives as well.

Only if they join the Church in this life or the next after a proxy baptism.


John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248
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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-02 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I honestly don't know. I believe baptism is required -- this is what we are
taught. But I don't claim to know all of God's ways, just that He is just and He
is merciful. Whatever that might end up meaning. I'm also reminded not to be too
judgemental by the parable of the labourers  who were hired at the 11th hour. God
judges their labour, not us.

Gary Smith wrote:

 I recall Joseph Smith having a vision (could it be in DC 137?), where he
 sees his non-baptized brother Alvin in the Celestial Kingdom. Alvin is
 obviously considered a 'true Christian' even though he has not yet been
 baptized.

 I would imagine that this largesse by Christ would be given to others,
 such as Marc's grandmother, if they are living great lives as well.

 K'aya K'ama,
 Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
 .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
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RE: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-01 Thread Chet
John, our BLT said (but without so many sideways carrots as appear in 
this reply - but that's because I can't get Zion to appear in my e-mail 
box and have to use this clunky reply system on Topica.  Rant, rave.  Oh 
- where was I?):

  I agree that many members of the Church are not true Christians, but I
  disagree that there are true Christians outside the Church. 

Chet sez:  This is something I have always had a problem with.  I know 
many good and wonderful people who profess to be Christians who are not 
LDS (such as my parents).  And I wonder (and I ask them) how can one 
love Christ and reject some of his scriptures?  Rarely do I get any kind 
of an answer, and when I do it's the evasive the Mormon Bible isn't 
scripture nonsense.  I call it evasive because the people stating so 
haven't read the Book of Mormon and don't intend to.

Thank goodness I'm not the final judge.  I'd never figure out how to get 
through this problem.


*jeep!
  --Chet
Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you 
are doing the impossible.

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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-01 Thread Jon Spencer
But this is a confrontational definition of Christianity.  Of course, the
Book of Mormon says that there are only two churches - the Church of the
Lamb of God and the Church of Satan, of the Whore of the world.  However,
even given that this is true (and it most certainly is), those who live the
truth and light that they have to the best of their ability seem to me to be
followers of Christ, regardless of what lying whore they listen to on Sunday
:-(.  And in reality, is it their fault or our fault if we can't reach them.

When we confront people with the New Testament, what are they to do?  Some
will be intellectually honest, but most will be the true enemy of God (i.e.,
the natural man).  It is up to us to find a way to speak to their spiritual
self and not to their natural man.  As Ammon showed us, we do this with pure
service, expecting nothing in return.  We don't do this by arguing scripture
with them (which is something that I am prone to do, if left to my own
devices).

I am as frustrated as anyone that the Bible is so plain in its rejection of
current mainstream Christian doctrine.  I feel like I want to grab there
heads and shove their faces into the Bible and have them read and explain
the hundreds of segments that say they are wrong.  but that, of course, is
the NM in me.

Jon

- Original Message -
From: Chet [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 11:45 AM
Subject: RE: [ZION] True Christians


 John, our BLT said (but without so many sideways carrots as appear in
 this reply - but that's because I can't get Zion to appear in my e-mail
 box and have to use this clunky reply system on Topica.  Rant, rave.  Oh
 - where was I?):

   I agree that many members of the Church are not true Christians, but I
   disagree that there are true Christians outside the Church.

 Chet sez:  This is something I have always had a problem with.  I know
 many good and wonderful people who profess to be Christians who are not
 LDS (such as my parents).  And I wonder (and I ask them) how can one
 love Christ and reject some of his scriptures?  Rarely do I get any kind
 of an answer, and when I do it's the evasive the Mormon Bible isn't
 scripture nonsense.  I call it evasive because the people stating so
 haven't read the Book of Mormon and don't intend to.

 Thank goodness I'm not the final judge.  I'd never figure out how to get
 through this problem.


 *jeep!
   --Chet
 Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you
 are doing the impossible.



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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-01 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with:

If someone (a) takes on the name of Christ, and (b) keeps His commandments
which he has given them, then that person IMVHO is a true Christian.


The first thing a person must do to qualify as a true Christian is to 
believe in him.  Then he must keep the commandment to be baptized.  Unless 
he does at least these two things he cannot qualify as a true Christian.

One cannot keep the commandments of Christ without an authorized baptism 
because such a baptism is the first commandment that must be kept after a 
person professes a belief in Christ.

They may not have as many commandments given to them as we have, but then 
again
the Nephites didn't have all the commandments given to them that we have had
given to us, and neither has anyone else that I have a firm knowledge of.

This point is not relevant in my opinion.  Each people has to keep the law 
that they have.  The Lord does not expect anyone to live a law that he does 
not have.  But in the case under discussion, the full law of Christ is 
available to anyone to accept or reject.  This has been true since the 
Church was organized in 1830.  One cannot reject the gospel and claim to 
follow Christ.  It is an oxymoron.

Of course, I haven't read a real definition of a True Christian so I
guess we may each have our own.


A true Christian is one that follows Christ in thought, word and deed.  And 
that means accepting the gospel from our missionaries.  Those who claim to 
accept Christ and refuse his only baptism are either dishonest or confused.

But in any event, I am not going to go around telling people that they are 
not true Christians, and I know that you are not going to do that 
either.  I think that we will both do our best to get as many of our Bros 
and Sisters to do all their own work, and not leave it to someone else 
later on to complete.

I agree that we shouldn't go around telling people that they are not 
'true' Christians.  Nor did I suggest such a thing.  But we need to 
understand the truth even if others reject it.  Besides, here on this list 
I am speaking to a converted, Mormon audience.  I'm not talking to some 
hypothetical people who are not members of the Church.

John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest --Joseph
Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248
***
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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-01 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I think what John's trying to say, if I may be so presumptuous, is that the
principle is clear. It is the judgement at the individual level that we are
cautioned about. I believe my grandmother, who passed away in April at 96 to have
been one of the most Christian people I ever knew, yet she never accepted the
Gospel (although of course we are having the work done for her). I don't believe
she was in a position, despite having two grandsons, a step-great-grandson, two
great-grandsons, a great-grandson-in-law and a soon-to-be
great-granddaughter-in-law who all served missions (Germany, French Polynesia,
Toronto, Russia, Philippines, Australia and Temple Square respectively) to truly
comprehend the Gospel. As she is too close to me for me to accurately judge --
were I even to attempt to -- I express only a prayer and a hope. But she was a
huge spirit.

John W. Redelfs wrote:

 After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with:
 If someone (a) takes on the name of Christ, and (b) keeps His commandments
 which he has given them, then that person IMVHO is a true Christian.

 The first thing a person must do to qualify as a true Christian is to
 believe in him.  Then he must keep the commandment to be baptized.  Unless
 he does at least these two things he cannot qualify as a true Christian.

 One cannot keep the commandments of Christ without an authorized baptism
 because such a baptism is the first commandment that must be kept after a
 person professes a belief in Christ.

 They may not have as many commandments given to them as we have, but then
 again
 the Nephites didn't have all the commandments given to them that we have had
 given to us, and neither has anyone else that I have a firm knowledge of.

 This point is not relevant in my opinion.  Each people has to keep the law
 that they have.  The Lord does not expect anyone to live a law that he does
 not have.  But in the case under discussion, the full law of Christ is
 available to anyone to accept or reject.  This has been true since the
 Church was organized in 1830.  One cannot reject the gospel and claim to
 follow Christ.  It is an oxymoron.

 Of course, I haven't read a real definition of a True Christian so I
 guess we may each have our own.

 A true Christian is one that follows Christ in thought, word and deed.  And
 that means accepting the gospel from our missionaries.  Those who claim to
 accept Christ and refuse his only baptism are either dishonest or confused.

 But in any event, I am not going to go around telling people that they are
 not true Christians, and I know that you are not going to do that
 either.  I think that we will both do our best to get as many of our Bros
 and Sisters to do all their own work, and not leave it to someone else
 later on to complete.

 I agree that we shouldn't go around telling people that they are not
 'true' Christians.  Nor did I suggest such a thing.  But we need to
 understand the truth even if others reject it.  Besides, here on this list
 I am speaking to a converted, Mormon audience.  I'm not talking to some
 hypothetical people who are not members of the Church.

 John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ***
 ...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest --Joseph
 Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248
 ***
 All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-01 Thread Stacy Smith
To add to this perspective, how many people who claim to be true Christians:

1.  Visit the sick.
2.  Visit people in prison.
3.  When they have a feast they invite the halt, lame and the blind.

Stacy.

At 05:56 AM 12/02/2002 -0900, you wrote:


After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with:

If someone (a) takes on the name of Christ, and (b) keeps His commandments
which he has given them, then that person IMVHO is a true Christian.


The first thing a person must do to qualify as a true Christian is to 
believe in him.  Then he must keep the commandment to be baptized.  Unless 
he does at least these two things he cannot qualify as a true Christian.

One cannot keep the commandments of Christ without an authorized baptism 
because such a baptism is the first commandment that must be kept after a 
person professes a belief in Christ.

They may not have as many commandments given to them as we have, but then 
again
the Nephites didn't have all the commandments given to them that we have had
given to us, and neither has anyone else that I have a firm knowledge of.

This point is not relevant in my opinion.  Each people has to keep the law 
that they have.  The Lord does not expect anyone to live a law that he 
does not have.  But in the case under discussion, the full law of Christ 
is available to anyone to accept or reject.  This has been true since the 
Church was organized in 1830.  One cannot reject the gospel and claim to 
follow Christ.  It is an oxymoron.

Of course, I haven't read a real definition of a True Christian so I
guess we may each have our own.


A true Christian is one that follows Christ in thought, word and 
deed.  And that means accepting the gospel from our missionaries.  Those 
who claim to accept Christ and refuse his only baptism are either 
dishonest or confused.

But in any event, I am not going to go around telling people that they 
are not true Christians, and I know that you are not going to do that 
either.  I think that we will both do our best to get as many of our Bros 
and Sisters to do all their own work, and not leave it to someone else 
later on to complete.

I agree that we shouldn't go around telling people that they are not 
'true' Christians.  Nor did I suggest such a thing.  But we need to 
understand the truth even if others reject it.  Besides, here on this list 
I am speaking to a converted, Mormon audience.  I'm not talking to some 
hypothetical people who are not members of the Church.

John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest --Joseph
Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248
***
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-12-01 Thread Stacy Smith
If we only go by that definition, then those living up to the only light 
they know and following Christ all the way to the best of their ability 
cannot be considered Christians.  I think I'd have a problem with 
that.  Can they go to the celestial kingdom?  Maybe, in some cases.  Can 
they progress to the highest level?  No.

Stacy.

At 04:06 AM 11/30/2002 -0600, you wrote:

I agree with JWR in so much as a true Christian must be a baptized member
of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and have a testimony
given by the Holy Ghost.

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-11-30 Thread Paul Osborne
I agree with JWR in so much as a true Christian must be a baptized member
of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and have a testimony
given by the Holy Ghost.

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-11-29 Thread Jon Spencer
Unfortunately, however, many members of the Church are not true Christians,
and many members of other Churches are (which, of course, is not
unfortunate - the only unfortunate thing is that they are not in the true
Church).

Jon

John W. Redelfs wrote:
 There are two kinds of Christianity in the world:  True Christianity and
 false Christianity.  True Christianity is found only in the Church of
Jesus
 Christ of Latter-day Saints.  --JWR

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Re: [ZION] True Christians

2002-11-29 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with:

Unfortunately, however, many members of the Church are not true Christians,
and many members of other Churches are (which, of course, is not
unfortunate - the only unfortunate thing is that they are not in the true
Church).


I agree that many members of the Church are not true Christians, but I 
disagree that there are true Christians outside the Church.  There are many 
kind, loving, unselfish people outside the Church, but that does not make 
them true Christians.  There are also a lot of Muslims, Hindu, Buddhist, 
and Jews who are kind, loving and unselfish.  And we would never call them 
Christians.  The irrefutable fact is that true Christianity is taught in 
only one Church on earth, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day 
Saints.  A true Christian has to be one that follows Christ.  And that is 
impossible without following his Prophet.

This is a true teaching that many Latter-day Saints are not comfortable 
with.  I find such teachings the most interesting of all.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday
School and seminary classes every fourth year. This
four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by
Church members in their personal and family study. We
need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get
a man nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by
any other book. (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988)
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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