Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go
Oh, and I forgot. If you get up to the temple, then the bookstore next door is owned by my wife (with me as her willing slave when I am not out doing something that actually brings in money). Ask for me and I'll run over - we only live 90 seconds from the store. Jon Maj Tom Merrill wrote: > Guilty as charged . > > Jon Spencer wrote: > > >Hey! Are you indeed another NC resident? Fayetteville, perhaps? > > > >Jon in Apex (the home of the Raleigh NC temple) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go
For those of you in the dark, Fayetteville (Fayette Nam), NC is next to Fort Bragg, home of a few other Majors, home of the 82nd Airborne, etc. Tom, what do you do there? My son is heading off to Fort Benning 4/14 for Ranger and Airborne training, with intent for Special Forces. If he doesn't stay at Benning, he may end up at Bragg. Jon Maj Tom Merrill wrote: > Guilty as charged . > > Jon Spencer wrote: > > >Hey! Are you indeed another NC resident? Fayetteville, perhaps? > > > >Jon in Apex (the home of the Raleigh NC temple) > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go
George Cobabe wrote: > > I am so used to having someone disagree that it just came naturally to me. Yes, there are so few of us who are right all the time. I completely understand. Noj // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go
Guilty as charged . Jon Spencer wrote: Hey! Are you indeed another NC resident? Fayetteville, perhaps? Jon in Apex (the home of the Raleigh NC temple) - Original Message - From: "Maj Tom Merrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 1:08 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go No. A missionary who served in our mission here in North Carolina was originally in the Netherlands. He had had a psychiatric episode and had tried to kill himself. He was sent home and spent quite a bit of time in the hospital and later, recouperated at home. After recouperating, a member of the Seventy visited him to guage his progress. They talked a long while and towards the end of the interview, he told him that, because of his illness, if he had succeeded in the suicide, he wouldn't have been held accountable. He was allowed to finish his mission in North Carolina (I was the ward mission leader at the time he was in our ward) and was given an honorable release. Tom Stacy Smith wrote: I am now positive that if one kills himself he will end up as a telestial being. Am I right on this point? Stacy. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go
Oh - well I had a hearing test this morning - passed perfectly in spite of my wifes contention that I am going deaf - guess I need to check my reading skills a bit closer. I am so used to having someone disagree that it just came naturally to me. George - Original Message - From: "Jon Spencer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 10:04 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go > Hmmm, need new glasses, George. I quote: > > "I strongly agree with George on this issue of suicide." (note that little > word "agree.") > > So it is indeed good that you are having trouble seeing where we > disagree :-) > > Jon > > - Original Message - > From: "George Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 11:10 PM > Subject: Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go > > > > Jon, I am having trouble seeing where we disagree. I think you have > stated > > the case very well. > > > > The basic answer to the original question is that the person who committs > > suicide is not to be judged by anyone other than God. And there is no > > automatic assignment to some lessor kingdom because of the act. > > > > George > > > > > > > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Jon Spencer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 8:42 PM > > Subject: Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go > > > > > > > I strongly agree with George on this issue of suicide. Just as with any > > > other transgression of law, intent is an important factor. I don't know > > > about anyone else, but I sometimes have a hard time figuring out what my > > > state of mind is, much less anyone else's. There is no set rule for > many > > > things. > > > > > > For example, we know that murder is the spilling of innocent blood. > What > > if > > > a criminal is holding many people hostage and is about to kill one of > > them. > > > A sniper tries to shoot the killer, but somehow kills a captive instead. > > > This is certainly the spilling of innocent blood, so its murder, right? > > Is > > > it? > > > > > > What about someone who is so mentally unbalanced at some moment that > they > > > commit suicide, where there is no way that they would do so under normal > > > circumstances. Are they really exercising agency in the same manner > that > > > they would if they cheated on their husband (and you thought I was > talking > > > about a man!)? I don't think so, but my opinion is irrelevant. She > will > > be > > > judged by someone with perfect knowledge. I am quite happy to leave > that > > > judgment to someone qualified to make it, because I am most certainly > NOT > > > qualified to make it. > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > George Cobabe wrote: > > > > > > > No. You and I are not in a postion to make such judgements and should > > not > > > > do so. Can you imagine telling the family of such a victim this > > > > speculation? You do not know the circumstances or the state of mind > of > > > such > > > > a person and cannot understand the judgement that will be offered to > > them. > > > > > > > > Comments may be found to the contrary, but the thinking and practice > on > > > this > > > > subject has changed a great deal in the past number of years in the > > > church. > > > > > > > > I have a friend whose father was a successful businessman, with a > lovely > > > > family, a great contributor to charity and whose name is prominently > > > > displayed as a major contributor to BYU. He had the world by the tail > > by > > > > any standard. He was the Bishop of a singles ward and when released > > from > > > > that calling went into a depressive period which ended when he took > his > > > > life. > > > > > > > > The Apostles, yes plural, which spoke at his funeral make it clear > that > > > you > > > > should not judge him unwisely or harshly. I would take their advice > on > > > this > > > > matter. > > > > > > > > George > > > > - Original Message - > > > > From: "Stacy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To:
Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go
Hmmm, need new glasses, George. I quote: "I strongly agree with George on this issue of suicide." (note that little word "agree.") So it is indeed good that you are having trouble seeing where we disagree :-) Jon - Original Message - From: "George Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 11:10 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go > Jon, I am having trouble seeing where we disagree. I think you have stated > the case very well. > > The basic answer to the original question is that the person who committs > suicide is not to be judged by anyone other than God. And there is no > automatic assignment to some lessor kingdom because of the act. > > George > > > > > - Original Message - > From: "Jon Spencer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 8:42 PM > Subject: Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go > > > > I strongly agree with George on this issue of suicide. Just as with any > > other transgression of law, intent is an important factor. I don't know > > about anyone else, but I sometimes have a hard time figuring out what my > > state of mind is, much less anyone else's. There is no set rule for many > > things. > > > > For example, we know that murder is the spilling of innocent blood. What > if > > a criminal is holding many people hostage and is about to kill one of > them. > > A sniper tries to shoot the killer, but somehow kills a captive instead. > > This is certainly the spilling of innocent blood, so its murder, right? > Is > > it? > > > > What about someone who is so mentally unbalanced at some moment that they > > commit suicide, where there is no way that they would do so under normal > > circumstances. Are they really exercising agency in the same manner that > > they would if they cheated on their husband (and you thought I was talking > > about a man!)? I don't think so, but my opinion is irrelevant. She will > be > > judged by someone with perfect knowledge. I am quite happy to leave that > > judgment to someone qualified to make it, because I am most certainly NOT > > qualified to make it. > > > > Jon > > > > George Cobabe wrote: > > > > > No. You and I are not in a postion to make such judgements and should > not > > > do so. Can you imagine telling the family of such a victim this > > > speculation? You do not know the circumstances or the state of mind of > > such > > > a person and cannot understand the judgement that will be offered to > them. > > > > > > Comments may be found to the contrary, but the thinking and practice on > > this > > > subject has changed a great deal in the past number of years in the > > church. > > > > > > I have a friend whose father was a successful businessman, with a lovely > > > family, a great contributor to charity and whose name is prominently > > > displayed as a major contributor to BYU. He had the world by the tail > by > > > any standard. He was the Bishop of a singles ward and when released > from > > > that calling went into a depressive period which ended when he took his > > > life. > > > > > > The Apostles, yes plural, which spoke at his funeral make it clear that > > you > > > should not judge him unwisely or harshly. I would take their advice on > > this > > > matter. > > > > > > George > > > - Original Message - > > > From: "Stacy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 3:41 AM > > > Subject: [ZION] Where Suicides Go > > > > > > > > > > I am now positive that if one kills himself he will end up as a > > telestial > > > > being. Am I right on this point? > > > > > > > > Stacy. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > // > > > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > > > > > > > > >
Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go
Hey! Are you indeed another NC resident? Fayetteville, perhaps? Jon in Apex (the home of the Raleigh NC temple) - Original Message - From: "Maj Tom Merrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 1:08 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go > No. A missionary who served in our mission here in North Carolina was > originally in the Netherlands. He had had a psychiatric episode and had > tried to kill himself. He was sent home and spent quite a bit of time > in the hospital and later, recouperated at home. > > After recouperating, a member of the Seventy visited him to guage his > progress. They talked a long while and towards the end of the > interview, he told him that, because of his illness, if he had succeeded > in the suicide, he wouldn't have been held accountable. > > He was allowed to finish his mission in North Carolina (I was the ward > mission leader at the time he was in our ward) and was given an > honorable release. > > Tom > > Stacy Smith wrote: > > > I am now positive that if one kills himself he will end up as a > > telestial being. Am I right on this point? > > > > Stacy. > > > > > > -- > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > // > > > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > / > > > > > > > > > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go
Jon, I am having trouble seeing where we disagree. I think you have stated the case very well. The basic answer to the original question is that the person who committs suicide is not to be judged by anyone other than God. And there is no automatic assignment to some lessor kingdom because of the act. George - Original Message - From: "Jon Spencer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 8:42 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go > I strongly agree with George on this issue of suicide. Just as with any > other transgression of law, intent is an important factor. I don't know > about anyone else, but I sometimes have a hard time figuring out what my > state of mind is, much less anyone else's. There is no set rule for many > things. > > For example, we know that murder is the spilling of innocent blood. What if > a criminal is holding many people hostage and is about to kill one of them. > A sniper tries to shoot the killer, but somehow kills a captive instead. > This is certainly the spilling of innocent blood, so its murder, right? Is > it? > > What about someone who is so mentally unbalanced at some moment that they > commit suicide, where there is no way that they would do so under normal > circumstances. Are they really exercising agency in the same manner that > they would if they cheated on their husband (and you thought I was talking > about a man!)? I don't think so, but my opinion is irrelevant. She will be > judged by someone with perfect knowledge. I am quite happy to leave that > judgment to someone qualified to make it, because I am most certainly NOT > qualified to make it. > > Jon > > George Cobabe wrote: > > > No. You and I are not in a postion to make such judgements and should not > > do so. Can you imagine telling the family of such a victim this > > speculation? You do not know the circumstances or the state of mind of > such > > a person and cannot understand the judgement that will be offered to them. > > > > Comments may be found to the contrary, but the thinking and practice on > this > > subject has changed a great deal in the past number of years in the > church. > > > > I have a friend whose father was a successful businessman, with a lovely > > family, a great contributor to charity and whose name is prominently > > displayed as a major contributor to BYU. He had the world by the tail by > > any standard. He was the Bishop of a singles ward and when released from > > that calling went into a depressive period which ended when he took his > > life. > > > > The Apostles, yes plural, which spoke at his funeral make it clear that > you > > should not judge him unwisely or harshly. I would take their advice on > this > > matter. > > > > George > > - Original Message - > > From: "Stacy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 3:41 AM > > Subject: [ZION] Where Suicides Go > > > > > > > I am now positive that if one kills himself he will end up as a > telestial > > > being. Am I right on this point? > > > > > > Stacy. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > // > > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > > > > > / > > > > > > > > > > > > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > / > > > > > > > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go
I strongly agree with George on this issue of suicide. Just as with any other transgression of law, intent is an important factor. I don't know about anyone else, but I sometimes have a hard time figuring out what my state of mind is, much less anyone else's. There is no set rule for many things. For example, we know that murder is the spilling of innocent blood. What if a criminal is holding many people hostage and is about to kill one of them. A sniper tries to shoot the killer, but somehow kills a captive instead. This is certainly the spilling of innocent blood, so its murder, right? Is it? What about someone who is so mentally unbalanced at some moment that they commit suicide, where there is no way that they would do so under normal circumstances. Are they really exercising agency in the same manner that they would if they cheated on their husband (and you thought I was talking about a man!)? I don't think so, but my opinion is irrelevant. She will be judged by someone with perfect knowledge. I am quite happy to leave that judgment to someone qualified to make it, because I am most certainly NOT qualified to make it. Jon George Cobabe wrote: > No. You and I are not in a postion to make such judgements and should not > do so. Can you imagine telling the family of such a victim this > speculation? You do not know the circumstances or the state of mind of such > a person and cannot understand the judgement that will be offered to them. > > Comments may be found to the contrary, but the thinking and practice on this > subject has changed a great deal in the past number of years in the church. > > I have a friend whose father was a successful businessman, with a lovely > family, a great contributor to charity and whose name is prominently > displayed as a major contributor to BYU. He had the world by the tail by > any standard. He was the Bishop of a singles ward and when released from > that calling went into a depressive period which ended when he took his > life. > > The Apostles, yes plural, which spoke at his funeral make it clear that you > should not judge him unwisely or harshly. I would take their advice on this > matter. > > George > - Original Message - > From: "Stacy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 3:41 AM > Subject: [ZION] Where Suicides Go > > > > I am now positive that if one kills himself he will end up as a telestial > > being. Am I right on this point? > > > > Stacy. > > > > > > -- > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > / > > > > > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go
Is that better than clicking a mouse? Lol. Stacy. At 07:10 PM 09/08/2003 -0500, you wrote: On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 04:41:45 -0500 Stacy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I am now positive that if one kills himself he will end up as a > telestial > being. Am I right on this point? > > Stacy. It depends on the mental state of the person. But, there is no reason to kill oneself just because this is a miserable life and suffering abounds. Just wait around long enough and death will come. Not even God can stop that! Just click your heels three times and say, "there's no place like home", repeated three times. You'll feel better. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go
On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 04:41:45 -0500 Stacy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I am now positive that if one kills himself he will end up as a > telestial > being. Am I right on this point? > > Stacy. It depends on the mental state of the person. But, there is no reason to kill oneself just because this is a miserable life and suffering abounds. Just wait around long enough and death will come. Not even God can stop that! Just click your heels three times and say, "there's no place like home", repeated three times. You'll feel better. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go
No. A missionary who served in our mission here in North Carolina was originally in the Netherlands. He had had a psychiatric episode and had tried to kill himself. He was sent home and spent quite a bit of time in the hospital and later, recouperated at home. After recouperating, a member of the Seventy visited him to guage his progress. They talked a long while and towards the end of the interview, he told him that, because of his illness, if he had succeeded in the suicide, he wouldn't have been held accountable. He was allowed to finish his mission in North Carolina (I was the ward mission leader at the time he was in our ward) and was given an honorable release. Tom Stacy Smith wrote: I am now positive that if one kills himself he will end up as a telestial being. Am I right on this point? Stacy. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go
Stacy Smith wrote: I am now positive that if one kills himself he will end up as a telestial being. Am I right on this point? If he is in his right mind, you are no doubt correct. On the other hand, how many people in their right mind commit suicide? Mental illness is often the cause of suicide. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go
At 08:37 AM 09/08/2003 -0500, I wrote: At 04:41 AM 9/8/03 -0500, Stacy Smith wrote: I am now positive that if one kills himself he will end up as a telestial being. Am I right on this point? Absolutely not according to the CHI or to what General Authorities have said in General Conference. At 07:04 AM 9/8/03 -0500, Stacy Smith wrote: Okay, please provide references or explain. Stacy. I don't have the precise page numbers handy at the moment (perhaps someone else does), but the essence is that the official stance of the Church is that we are not to judge a person who has committed suicide, and that we have no specific information concerning what will happen to them in the next life. Quoting from a personal communication concerning a (apparently non-LDS) funeral director who sought information from Church headquarters about LDS funeral customs: Elder Packer made it clear to him that suicide is *not* held by the church to have *any* affect on the person's status, either in terms of earthly things like church records, sealing status, being buried in one's temple garments, or whatever, or--as far as we know--on one's eternal status. -- Ronn! :) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go
At 03:41 AM 9/8/2003, you wrote: I am now positive that if one kills himself he will end up as a telestial being. Am I right on this point? Stacy. I don't think so in all cases. There are too many variables. Was the person in his right mind? How much light and truth did he/she possess? Was the person mentally ill? Whatever kingdom a person will inherit on judgement day you can be assured that God, who rightly divides, will judge a righteous judgement. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] ". . . in the future the opposition from Satan will be both more subtle and more open. While in some ways it may be more blatant, it will be masked with greater sophistication and cunning. We will need greater spirituality to perceive all the forms of evil and greater strength to resist it." (President James E. Faust, CR, April 2003) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go
I want to make it abundantly clear that I am judging no one on this point at this time. I am doing research on the subject. Stacy. At 07:29 AM 09/08/2003 -0600, you wrote: No. You and I are not in a postion to make such judgements and should not do so. Can you imagine telling the family of such a victim this speculation? You do not know the circumstances or the state of mind of such a person and cannot understand the judgement that will be offered to them. Comments may be found to the contrary, but the thinking and practice on this subject has changed a great deal in the past number of years in the church. I have a friend whose father was a successful businessman, with a lovely family, a great contributor to charity and whose name is prominently displayed as a major contributor to BYU. He had the world by the tail by any standard. He was the Bishop of a singles ward and when released from that calling went into a depressive period which ended when he took his life. The Apostles, yes plural, which spoke at his funeral make it clear that you should not judge him unwisely or harshly. I would take their advice on this matter. George - Original Message - From: "Stacy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 3:41 AM Subject: [ZION] Where Suicides Go > I am now positive that if one kills himself he will end up as a telestial > being. Am I right on this point? > > Stacy. > > > -- > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go
Okay, please provide references or explain. Stacy. At 08:37 AM 09/08/2003 -0500, you wrote: At 04:41 AM 9/8/03 -0500, Stacy Smith wrote: I am now positive that if one kills himself he will end up as a telestial being. Am I right on this point? Absolutely not according to the CHI or to what General Authorities have said in General Conference. -- Ronn! :) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go
At 04:41 AM 9/8/03 -0500, Stacy Smith wrote: I am now positive that if one kills himself he will end up as a telestial being. Am I right on this point? Absolutely not according to the CHI or to what General Authorities have said in General Conference. -- Ronn! :) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Where Suicides Go
No. You and I are not in a postion to make such judgements and should not do so. Can you imagine telling the family of such a victim this speculation? You do not know the circumstances or the state of mind of such a person and cannot understand the judgement that will be offered to them. Comments may be found to the contrary, but the thinking and practice on this subject has changed a great deal in the past number of years in the church. I have a friend whose father was a successful businessman, with a lovely family, a great contributor to charity and whose name is prominently displayed as a major contributor to BYU. He had the world by the tail by any standard. He was the Bishop of a singles ward and when released from that calling went into a depressive period which ended when he took his life. The Apostles, yes plural, which spoke at his funeral make it clear that you should not judge him unwisely or harshly. I would take their advice on this matter. George - Original Message - From: "Stacy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 3:41 AM Subject: [ZION] Where Suicides Go > I am now positive that if one kills himself he will end up as a telestial > being. Am I right on this point? > > Stacy. > > > -- > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
