Re: [ZION] apostate working women {was}working woman
Amen, Jim.
It is too often that people, even members that ought to know better forget
this basic truth. We are told not to judge unfairly or unwisely. We are
never told NOT to judge, for as you suggest it is an essential part of the
gospel of Jesus Christ.
George
- Original Message -
From: "Jim Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 9:15 AM
Subject: RE: [ZION] apostate working women {was}working woman
>
> Paul Osborne wrote:
> ---
> No one made you the judge.
> ---
>
> It would be pleasant to believe this. I could suspend all my struggles
> at discernment and tell myself, "Not to worry, you're not the judge.
> Let someone else decide what is right and wrong."
>
> However easy that might be, it is not the gospel...
>
> "For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may
> know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know
> with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night."
> (Moroni 7:15)
>
>
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RE: [ZION] apostate working women {was}working woman
Paul Osborne wrote: --- No one made you the judge. --- It would be pleasant to believe this. I could suspend all my struggles at discernment and tell myself, "Not to worry, you're not the judge. Let someone else decide what is right and wrong." However easy that might be, it is not the gospel... "For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night." (Moroni 7:15) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] apostate working women {was}working woman
Paul Osborne wrote: I'm just expressing my view when white collar men grumble out of their lips against the woes of blue collar men and how they can supposedly fix their low income problems. The fact is, many white collar men are ignorant and lack real experience when it comes to blue collar money woes as they sit in the ivory tower of plenty. = Grampa Bill comments: I think part of our problem in coming to a consensus is that we are tending toward dividing all jobs into white collar or blue collar without acknowledging that there are broad gradations within each. For several years I refused to accept a twenty percent pay raise and be put into a salaried slot. Fact is, I was making better than thirty percent above base in my "blue collar" when my OT was calculated in. The "white collar" position would have amounted to a pay cut. The military comes to mind. They make a broad distinction between the "blue collar" enlisted men and the "white collar" officers. Yet a twenty year Command Sergeant Major certainly makes more money and probably has more prestige than a shave-tail Second Lieutenant fresh out of OCS. I believe we err when we paint the picture with too broad a brush. Both the white collar and the blue collar positions contain men who are put upon and treated unfairly, and both have men who are not worth a fourth what they are actually compensated. Love y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] apostate working women {was}working woman
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 00:32:53 + Jim Cobabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >I am not offering the least criticism to women who work out of >necessity. Good. Let's keep it that way. No one made you the judge. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] apostate working women {was}working woman
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 19:34:35 + J Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Val wrote: (i.e. husband can get more education to get a better paying job Are you saying that no Latter-day Saint should settle for a lower paying job? Someone has to do the work! There are always lower paying jobs and the competition will never allow all men to have higher paying jobs. Shall all men sit in the ivory tower and push pencils? Or shall all men be chief? Who is going to do the work? I'm not attacking you Val; I'm just expressing my view when white collar men grumble out of their lips against the woes of blue collar men and how they can supposedly fix their low income problems. The fact is, many white collar men are ignorant and lack real experience when it comes to blue collar money woes as they sit in the ivory tower of plenty. I'll glady switch paychecks and let them see for themselves and their eyes will be opened! Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] apostate working women {was}working woman
Val wrote: --- So it depends on which prophetic counsel you are referencing. --- In my view, prophetic counsel is consistent in letter and spirit from one day to the next, through all ages of time. If I see conflicts in the pronouncements from one prophet to another, I must assume that there is a fault in my interpretation. I will not entertain the suggestion that counsel from President Benson is somehow "trumped" by statements from President Hinckley. One aspect of this issue is the manner of delivery of certain messages that differs significantly from one man to another. President Benson was blunt and aggressive in his directives. President Hinckley is often soft-spoken and indirect. He tends to be more sensitive about public perception. Notwithstanding, I saw no quotes indicating that President Hinckley has at any time rescinded the "archaic" counsel that mothers should not work. I have long pondered the postscript trailing the Proclamation on the Family. My suspicion is that many people will skip over the body of the message to this last bit of the message and focus all their attention on it. "See, my circumstances are special, so I will just write my own Proclamation!" I am not offering the least criticism to women who work out of necessity. Of course families without fathers have different circumstances and needs. The gospel is not a cruel taskmaster that burdens widows with unreasonable demands, is it? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] apostate working women {was}working woman
Val wrote:
>
>
> -- Jim Cobabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Sounds like we need not follow prophetic counsel as long as our
> circumstances make it inconvenient or uncomfortable for us.
>
> Am I getting this right?
> ___
>
> WRONG!
> This is an unfair, sweeping, judgemental condemnation of women who work.
> I don't know if you are even married, or if she works, but you'd better
> thank your lucky stars if she does not have too. That only means you
> have been blessed and does not mean you have powers of judgement.
>
> When abiding prophetic counsel, usually the living prophet "trumps"
> older counsel. Otherwise, we'd still be practicing polygamy!
>
> So it depends on which prophetic counsel you are referencing. If you
> are referring to GBH's most recent comments on women who need to work,
> then I am abiding it just fine. But, if you are referring to the
> archaic counsel that women should not work, then call me an apostate.
>
> I am sure the Lord doesn't have a problem with me supporting my family.
> My husband is unable to because he is, well, dead! Sure, I could live
> on Social Security, but that would not even cover my utilities, let
> alone my house payment, taxes, cemetery, etc. Of course, me and the
> kids do still need to eat, so groceries would have to go too. And I
> cannot expect the church to support me and my kids--that's just
> ludicrous.
>
> If putting a leaky roof over my kids' heads is a convenience, then I
> work because otherwise it would be inconvenient to live on the streets.
>
> If feeding my kids and keeping them warm is comfortable, then I work
> because otherwise we would be uncomfortable freezing in the winter or
> baking in the summer.
>
> I've usually respected your comments, Jim, but you really ticked me off
> with this one!
>
> val--from her JOB!
> {watch out for the lightening strikes heading my way!}
>
>
> The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
Let's all chill out and relax for a minute. It seems that working women
and husbands of working women always get defensive when this topic is
discussed. Let's not even begin to discuss why they get defensive.
Let's talk in generalities for a minute. I think that IDEALLY the
husband would work to provide for the family and the wife would be home
with the kids (which, in my opinion, is harder than working out of the
home). This is the IDEAL, but, as we all know, it is not always
possible. I think that as long as we are doing all we can to adhere to
this ideal, we will be blameless (only relating to this topic) before
God. It has nothing to do with white collar or blue collar workers.
How we "do all we can", though, is where the topic goes from black and
white, to gray. There are women who truly need to work, and those who
"think" they need to work (or the husbands "think" the wife needs to
work), but perhaps don't have to (i.e. husband can get more education to
get a better paying job, can take on a second job, family can reduce
expenses). I don't think that any current (or relatively current)
prophet has negated the counsel of earlier prophets who have said that
women should not work outside of the home. Current prophets may have
clarified that the issue is gray, rather than black and white, but they
haven't removed the ideal. Look at the Family Proclatation. Pretty
current, huh? Pretty clear, too. "By divine design, fathers are to
preside over their families in love and righteousness and ARE
RESPONSIBLE TO PROVIDE THE NECESSITIES OF LIFE and protection for their
families. Mothers are primarily respondible for the nurture of their
children." Kind of hard for the mother to do this when she is working
out of the home. Not impossible, but harder. The Proclamation goes on
to say that "In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are
obligated to help one another as equal partners." I don't think this is
a negation of previous prophetic counsel. Husbands and wives and "help
one another" with their responsibilities by BETTER PERFORMING THEIR OWN
RESPONSIBILITIES, and not necessarily DOING each others
responsibilities. The Proclamation then states, "Disability, death, or
other circumstances may necessitate individual adaption." Has the IDEAL
been changed? No.
.
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