Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed

2000-05-29 Thread Martijn Faassen

Oleg Broytmann wrote:
  Where do you intend on going? If there was something better out there
  you'd be humping its leg already.
 
Thanks goodness, I am not using Zope on production servers. I use Zope
 only to experiments and understand the technology. Looked good until
 yesterday.

This is an overreaction. :)

Zope still only uses Python in the core (with some C thrown in to support
the Python). This won't change. I don't even think it *can* be changed;
Perl product support would probably be such a pain in the neck that even
Jim Fulton would say it's 'difficult' (and not just 'tricky', which is
Fultonese for 'very difficult' already).

[snip]
Of course, if perl wouldn't hurt Zope as much as I am afraid, I'll
 return to considering to use Zope on production servers.

I don't think Perl will hurt Zope a lot. My main worry is that some part of
the Zope python sources will have to be less clean in order to get Perl
support. Along with weird side effects that may occur.

But, since that source is open source, if it becomes too messy, someone
will eventually stand up and clean it up. The more I look at DTML the more
I want to clean *that* up, or better yet, reimplement it, and at one point, 
given time...

Regards,

Martijn


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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed

2000-05-29 Thread Martijn Faassen

Martijn Pieters wrote:
[snip]
 Now, please, can we stop this whole silly argument? Can't we talk about old
 terminal types or something, instead?

That invocation only works on comp.lang.python. :)

Regards,

Martijn


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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed

2000-05-29 Thread Martijn Faassen

Paul Everitt wrote:
[snip]
 As the person that made the decision, I can at least testify that no
 ulterior motives were behind it.  Still, Zope is a community thing, and
 we here at DC need our heads bopped on a regular basis, lest we ever
 forget it.
 
 Consider our heads bopped. :^)

And this is why I like and trust DC. You realize your heads get bopped. :)
As long as you do, even if you do continue to disagree with that weird
Martijn Faassen guy, I have no big worries. As long as the community
keeps learning (DC included), we're fine.

And-now-back-to-our-whining-about-Perl-ly yours,

Martijn


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RE: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed

2000-05-26 Thread John Chandler

 Actually, I'd like to see Zope interface with "more" languages (Java, C++
 etc.)  There are a number of areas that Python performs poorly (I'd prefer
 to write encryption algorithms in C, personally) and there are areas where
 Python performs very well (OO modelling).  I think if people are upset that

It comes down to a combination of using the right tool for the right job
with a little bit of personal preference thrown in. Zope, through Python,
already supports C. I personally don't like C very much, but I use it and
it has certain advantages over other compiled languages - in an ideal
world I'd do compiled coding in something like Modula-2, but it just isn't
practical from a portability and support front.

 they may have to extend their knowledge base to be Zope "experts" than this
 is a little silly.  Do I have to be an Oracle/MySQL/SyBase/etc. to know
 Zope.  No - I benefit from Zope being able to handle all of these database
 sources.  If someone has written a Zope product that "works" I really don't
 care what language it's in (ok, I "do," but not entirely :).  If it's broken

Exactly :-) For me personally, the implementation language of Zope is
completely immaterial - it could be written in Cobol, Prolog or Forth but
if it does exactly what it does at the moment I would still use it and
enjoy it because it has so much power. When Simon and Chris in the office
introduced me to Zope, the internals didn't matter - there was so much
potential lurking on the outside, I just couldn't be anything but
impressed. Zope is seriously cool stuff.

I'd never touched a line of Python at the time, though I quickly learnt it
from a curiosity point of view (remember, I was/still am a Perl coder). It
wasn't useful at the time, but it has been since.

 eventually port them over if Python will make them better.  And, if not,
 there are books on Perl that would enable a relatively competent Python
 programmer to hack their way through it.

The thing is, if you are a reasonable to good programmer in one language,
there's no reason why you can't pick up another language easily - in fact,
it's very good practice to learn new languages even if you end up putting
them to one side after a few weeks/months and go back to your language of
choice.

In some ways, going from a rigid (and I mean that in a nice way, just
couldn't think of a better word) language such as Python that enforces
good programming habits will make it easier for you to be a good
programmer in a less-rigid language such as Perl. Pascal or Modula-2 to C
or C++ is a much easier transition than the other way around because
you've learnt the good programming habits from the start and have trained
your mind not to abuse the darker side of C. When people ask me what's a
good language to learn programming with, something like Python or Pascal
is usually my first answer, C isn't even though it may be in more
widespread use than Pascal.

*phew* And some people think computing is dull ;-)


John

--
 John Chandler  /  Software Developer  /  New Information Paradigms Ltd
   [ Linux in the office, AmigaOS in the home, PalmOS in the pocket ]

 The opinions above aren't those of my company...
   ...but then, they aren't really mine either.


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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed

2000-05-26 Thread Bill Anderson

Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote:

[...]

 The sad fact of the matter is that there is more concern for people's
 personal welfare, than that of the project as a whole. When in fact, what
 is good for Zope is good for the community.
 
 Zope is open source, if you don't like Perl, and it morally offends
 you, branch the code and keep your own Python-only version running. If
 you don't think this is feasible, ask yourself why, and then rethink why
 other language support in Zope is a GoodThing(tm) (TCL ? mmm acs integration)

OK, let's look at the issue of fragmentation...(this is one of my larger
concerns).

Right now DC is adamant about the being no perl products. But, as you
say, it is Open, so one can branch and fragment. Now, let's do some
math.

How much larger is the perl community; let's be honest, they are at
least an order of magnitude larger). So, let us _assume_ that as some
are predicting, we get this huge influx of perlers, and their
concomitant perl-method based apps. We are then confronted with the
situation where we have the majority of users demanding perl products,
so they can stay in the land of perl and zope. Will DC remain as strong?
Likely, IMO. But, as you say, the code is open. So, they branch the
code, and start maintaining their own. Guess what happens to the
userbase and developerbase from perl? That would be it wavig goodbye, or
perhaps thats not  awave

As I have said, I have a fair amount of confidence in DC's refusal to
include perl products. But, I also am fully aware that either they will
cave in, or their perlers we reportedly would gain would fork, and add
it on their own, thus abandoning the rest of us, and gainig us very
little, if anything in the meantime. Unless python supplants perl as the
dominant language in the world of scripting for the web, the forked
verison will always win in a marketing contest, as long as it has what
the 'Real Zope' has, nad has the perl stuff ours doesn't. In the world
of marketing, more is better. In order to avoid this, it will take
significant effort on the part of DC, and us users and developers.
Basically, python will have to be considered a 'first class' citizen (to
borrow a phrase ;-), and perl will have to remain a second-class citizen
at best, and this will have to be tactfully, yet unquestionably made
known. Can or Will this be done? I guess we will see, won't we?

These are not the fearfull meanderings of a Python Nerd, but
observations of history, and trends.

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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed

2000-05-26 Thread Oleg Broytmann

On 25 May 2000, Roman Milner wrote:
 Here is why I'm bummed about this.  Like other people who have posted
 - after years of coding perl for money, I have vowed never to do it
 again.  (I find that it produces encourages unmaintainable code.)
 Also, I think my main marketable skill now is Zope.  So, were I to
 want to find a different job now coding Zope - perl will be expected
 to be in my skill set.  Other companies using zope will almost
 certainly have perl methods laying around that need to be maintained.
 So, basically, in order to find a job using zope - I'll have to
 relearn, and code in perl at that job.

   Exactly!

 So, I believe this is enough reason for me to start considering other
 web technologies for me, and my company.

   I am considering dismounting the Zope bandwagon, too :( It was good
techonology, but what will come?

Oleg.(All opinions are mine and not of my employer)
 
Oleg Broytmann  Foundation for Effective Policies  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.


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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed

2000-05-26 Thread Andrew Kenneth Milton

+[ Oleg Broytmann ]-
|
|  So, I believe this is enough reason for me to start considering other
|  web technologies for me, and my company.
| 
|I am considering dismounting the Zope bandwagon, too :( It was good
| techonology, but what will come?

Where do you intend on going? If there was something better out there
you'd be humping its leg already.

-- 
Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet|  P:+61 7 3870 0066   | Andrew Milton
The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd  |  F:+61 7 3870 4477   | 
ACN: 082 081 472 |  M:+61 416 022 411   | Carpe Daemon
PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068|[EMAIL PROTECTED]| 

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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed

2000-05-26 Thread Oleg Broytmann

On Sat, 27 May 2000, Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote:
 |  So, I believe this is enough reason for me to start considering other
 |  web technologies for me, and my company.
 | 
 |I am considering dismounting the Zope bandwagon, too :( It was good
 | techonology, but what will come?
 
 Where do you intend on going? If there was something better out there
 you'd be humping its leg already.

   Thanks goodness, I am not using Zope on production servers. I use Zope
only to experiments and understand the technology. Looked good until
yesterday.
   On production servers I use pure Python CGIs powered by ZTemplates. I
think I can add ZPublisher and PersistentCGI without diving into full Zope.

   Of course, if perl wouldn't hurt Zope as much as I am afraid, I'll
return to considering to use Zope on production servers. (Most of my sites
are not interactive - just a "picture"; but there is one that during its
development through last year became finally highly interactive; the site
looks like first candidate for Zope and PTK and other Products).

Oleg.(All opinions are mine and not of my employer)
 
Oleg Broytmann  Foundation for Effective Policies  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.


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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed

2000-05-26 Thread Karl Anderson

Ken Manheimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On 25 May 2000, Roman Milner wrote:
 
  Well, my point is that I don't think you will be able to ignore it.
  Your boss will give you a product to maintain that includes someone
  else's perl code - sooner or later.

My boss isn't going to suddenly tell me that I'm now either a perl
developer or unemployed, because he hired me for my judgement 
decision skills as well as my keyboard pounding skills.  If your boss
didn't hire you for that reason - well, its an excellent time to be a
skilled IT worker looking for a job.   if your boss doesn't value
your intelligence and also wants you to suddenly hack perl, then your
boss didn't read your resume.

 to reinforce what Ken says:

 For all of you that love Python, and testify to either leaving perl
 with great relief or not being willing to learn it in the first place
 - why don't you trust your judgement?

It's also an even more excellent time to be a sklled Zopista looking
for a job.  Find a good place looking to start a Zope project, build
them a site,  you'll be deciding whether to use Perl products or not.

I can understand the fear of dilluting a good clean python/C
environment with evil dirty perl, but if I didn't think that a Zope
environment will continue to be a good place to be, I'd already have a
different email address.

-- 
Karl Anderson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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[Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed

2000-05-25 Thread Roman Milner


Here is why I'm bummed about this.  Like other people who have posted
- after years of coding perl for money, I have vowed never to do it
again.  (I find that it produces encourages unmaintainable code.)
Also, I think my main marketable skill now is Zope.  So, were I to
want to find a different job now coding Zope - perl will be expected
to be in my skill set.  Other companies using zope will almost
certainly have perl methods laying around that need to be maintained.
So, basically, in order to find a job using zope - I'll have to
relearn, and code in perl at that job.

So, I believe this is enough reason for me to start considering other
web technologies for me, and my company.

^Roman




 "PE" == Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

PE Howdy gang.  Below is an announcement that we'll start
PE distributing over the next 24 hours.  I wanted to let you
PE folks see it first.  In summary: Perl Methods.

PE This isn't a press release, which we'll be doing in the run-up
PE to the O'Reilly Open Source conference in July, when the code
PE is closer to being available.

PE ---

PE Digital Creations, creators of the Open Source Zope
PE application server, announced today that it is teaming with
PE ActiveState, a leading provider of Internet programming
PE software, to make Perl a scripting language for Zope.

PE Perl is the predominant scripting language for Internet
PE applications and is a key success story for the Open Source
PE software movement. Zope is written in Python, the fastest
PE growing Open Source scripting language.

PE "It is clear that the strength of Zope realizes the future
PE architecture of the Web," says Paul Everitt, CEO of Digital
PE Creations. "This dynamic architecture, and the people working
PE with it, are a fantastic match for scripting languages. Thus
PE it is natural that Digital Creations would team with
PE ActiveState to make Perl a scripting language for Zope."

PE "Zope is a powerful content management system that we use
PE internally," said Dick Hardt, CEO of ActiveState. "By adding
PE the power of Perl to Zope, we will be able to leverage all the
PE existing Perl technology that we have as well as bring the
PE worlds of Python and Perl closer together."

PE Under this agreement, ActiveState will get Python and Perl to
PE run in the same application. More specifically, Perl
PE programmers can code critical pieces of business logic in Zope
PE solutions.

PE "The Perl for Zope project brings the worlds of the two most
PE important open source programming languages together," stated
PE Gisle Aas, Senior Developer, ActiveState. "Python programmers
PE will be able to directly take advantage of the large
PE collection of reusable Perl program modules, like DBI, found
PE on CPAN.  Perl programmers will be able to program and
PE customize the Zope web application server using their favorite
PE language."

PE The initial developer release of Perl For Zope will coincide
PE with the O'Reilly Open Source Software Convention in July
PE 2000.  For more information on the project, please visit the
PE Perl For Zope project page at
PE http://www.zope.org/Wikis/zope-perl/.

PE Contact Information

PE   For Digital Creations, contact Paul Everitt,
PE [EMAIL PROTECTED], 540.371.6909x102.  For ActiveState, contact
PE Lori Pike, [EMAIL PROTECTED], 604.713.8433.

PE --Paul

PE Paul Everitt Digital Creations [EMAIL PROTECTED] 540.371.6909
PE - The Open Source Zope
PE application server http://www.zope.org/
PE -
 


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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed

2000-05-25 Thread Kevin Dangoor

- Original Message -
From: "Roman Milner" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 1:48 PM
Subject: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed


 Here is why I'm bummed about this.  Like other people who have posted
 - after years of coding perl for money, I have vowed never to do it
 again.  (I find that it produces encourages unmaintainable code.)
 Also, I think my main marketable skill now is Zope.  So, were I to
 want to find a different job now coding Zope - perl will be expected
 to be in my skill set.  Other companies using zope will almost
 certainly have perl methods laying around that need to be maintained.
 So, basically, in order to find a job using zope - I'll have to
 relearn, and code in perl at that job.

 So, I believe this is enough reason for me to start considering other
 web technologies for me, and my company.

I think Zope offers a ton of features that I wouldn't want to give up. (And
I've been watching what the other servers out there are doing, and I still
appreciate the power given by Zope.)

It's a fact of web programming that there are lots of tools written in
different languages. CORBA, XML-RPC and SOAP all provide glue between
languages today. It's certainly possible you could come across someone who
has applications written in several different languages that use one or more
of these technologies to talk to each other... Adding PerlMethods just adds
another interface... one that can potentially expand the Zope user base
quite dramatically. Not to mention the possibility of tying in to some of
the vast amounts Perl code that already exists out there.

I haven't heard of anyone standing up and saying "I'm not going to use
Linux, because people might write tools in perl [or awk, or C, or lisp, or
sh, or yacc or postscript, or ...]" Perhaps that's a better way to look at
Zope... not as a python web application, but as a high-level OS extension
for dynamic web applications.

Kevin


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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed

2000-05-25 Thread Roman Milner

 "KD" == Kevin Dangoor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

KD I think Zope offers a ton of features that I wouldn't want to
KD give up. (And I've been watching what the other servers out
KD there are doing, and I still appreciate the power given by
KD Zope.)

I don't question at all that zope is awesome.

KD I haven't heard of anyone standing up and saying "I'm not
KD going to use Linux, because people might write tools in perl
KD [or awk, or C, or lisp, or sh, or yacc or postscript, or ...]"
KD Perhaps that's a better way to look at Zope... not as a python
KD web application, but as a high-level OS extension for dynamic
KD web applications.

Well, I don't think that analogy applies directly.  People will ask,
"do you know zope", and in order to say yes - I will need to know
perl.  The answer "yes except for the perl bits" won't fly with an
employer.  Linux is different.  Saying "I know linux" generally means
you know how to administer it - not how to code in every language
available to it.  When looking for a coding job - they hire based on
what language you know - not what OS.  For zope, you will just have to
"know zope" - employers will see "zope" and a language just like
parents see "understanding computers" as knowing how to fix their windows
boxes :)

We have a lot of former perl coders here and they won't be able to
resist the new fancy perl methods.  And within a short while we will
have a body code dung.

Perhaps this is a disadvantage to the DC company-owned open-source
project model.  They will make bad decisions based on potential
profit. 

XEmacs has managed to fend of perl (and python) support.  I have heard
close to the same argument there that I have made here, basically.
Another language adds little benefit and much complexity for someone
who will have to maintain code on the platform.

I don't buy this bit about being able to access 1000's of wonderful
perl modules.  Most people that I know who have made the switched at
how much better the python library is the perl's.

^Roman

Sorry for being a tad emotional here.  I'm sure I will calm down -
it's just that yesterday I was one of the most adamant Zope evangelist
around.  Today...

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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed

2000-05-25 Thread Hannu Krosing

Kevin Dangoor wrote:
 
 
 I haven't heard of anyone standing up and saying "I'm not going to use
 Linux, because people might write tools in perl [or awk, or C, or lisp, or
 sh, or yacc or postscript, or ...]" Perhaps that's a better way to look at
 Zope... not as a python web application, but as a high-level OS extension
 for dynamic web applications.

The metaphore seems quite right!

Some of its most significant features (Aquiition, ExtensionClass) are
even 
written in C and mess with guts of python interpreter.

See for example PostgreSQL - it has C, SQL, PL/SQL, TCL, Perl, Ruby and 
soon python as its server-side programming languages, with no real
argument 
about weather to include yet another language - if you dont
want/need/know
how to use it you just ignore it ;) 
And it was originally written in lisp ;-9

-
Hannu

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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed

2000-05-25 Thread Ken Manheimer

On 25 May 2000, Roman Milner wrote:

 Well, my point is that I don't think you will be able to ignore it.
 Your boss will give you a product to maintain that includes someone
 else's perl code - sooner or later.  Since it is "part of zope" and you
 clearly "know zope" you should be able to maintain it.
 
 I'm not talking about maintaining zope itself.  I'm talking about
 maintaining web sites that use zope.

I have some misgivings with this outlook.  It sounds like people who
seek job security by having expertise with a system that closes out
unfamiliar options - whether the options are better or worse.

For all of you that love Python, and testify to either leaving perl
with great relief or not being willing to learn it in the first place
- why don't you trust your judgement?  Python *does* offer better a
better foundation for persistence, acquisition, general
object-oriented applications, etc - you should not be frightened of a
level, open zope playing field that admits both python and perl!

If you don't feel python is better, just what you prefer, then you
should be happy to have the additional power of perl (and it's
community) available to you without having to leave your favorite
language!

It's a win in either case.

(And zope will never be an entirely level playing field, because
python and C *will* continue to serve as the foundation for Zope.
Oleg, your refutation of that has the smell of casting Fear,
Uncertainty, and Doubt - treating digital creations with some serious
and, i think, unwarranted disrespect, if i may say.)

I also think these objections are contrary to one of the principle
reasons that python itself is so attractive - it's a glue language,
after all.  It enables people to use facilities from other languages,
without having to get their hands dirty with them.

I never really learned C - but that doesn't mean i won't use other
people's C extensions!  Many many people have found Python to be the
best way to get acquainted with Java, with jpython - and i wonder how
many java folks got turned on to python's advantages, though the
ability to use java interactively via jpython.  Access to other
languages via python isn't a problem, it's a solution - why should it
be any different with Zope?

Personally, i suspect that it's much less likely that someone will
switch from python to perl than the reverse, perhaps a sign of my own
python bigotry - but if you're similarly inclined, once again, i think 
you should appreciate the advantages of this new open door.

Ken Manheimer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed

2000-05-25 Thread Roman Milner

 "KM" == Ken Manheimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

KM I have some misgivings with this outlook.  It sounds like
KM people who seek job security by having expertise with a system
KM that closes out unfamiliar options - whether the options are
KM better or worse.

I'm not in any way unfamiliar with perl.  If this had been a language
that I didn't know or, or any technology that I didn't know - I
would have an opened mind.  I've been down the perl road, and have made a
personal choice never to do it again.

KM For all of you that love Python, and testify to either leaving
KM perl with great relief or not being willing to learn it in the
KM first place - why don't you trust your judgement?  Python
KM *does* offer better a better foundation for persistence,
KM acquisition, general object-oriented applications, etc - you
KM should not be frightened of a level, open zope playing field
KM that admits both python and perl!

Yes, *I* should.  I'm trying to make the point that it's nieve to
believe that I will be able to just ignore the perl bits.  Yes, I can
avoid writing anything original in perl but sooner or later, if I'm 
working with zope, I will be asked to do something with one of the perl
methods.  They are going to be prevalent and hard to avoid.  So, if my
goal is to entirely avoid maintaining perl code, I will have to avoid
Zope.

KM I never really learned C - but that doesn't mean i won't use
KM other people's C extensions!  Many many people have found
KM Python to be the best way to get acquainted with Java, with
KM jpython - and i wonder how many java folks got turned on to
KM python's advantages, though the ability to use java
KM interactively via jpython.  Access to other languages via
KM python isn't a problem, it's a solution - why should it be any
KM different with Zope?
  
I wouldn't mind using someone else's perl module either.  But it just
isn't going to be limited to that.  Developers get hit by buses, and
managers assign the code to other people.

I think that anyone who wants to claim Zope expertise will need to
know and be willing to code in perl.

^Roman

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RE: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed

2000-05-25 Thread Michael Oas

Actually, I'd like to see Zope interface with "more" languages (Java, C++
etc.)  There are a number of areas that Python performs poorly (I'd prefer
to write encryption algorithms in C, personally) and there are areas where
Python performs very well (OO modelling).  I think if people are upset that
they may have to extend their knowledge base to be Zope "experts" than this
is a little silly.  Do I have to be an Oracle/MySQL/SyBase/etc. to know
Zope.  No - I benefit from Zope being able to handle all of these database
sources.  If someone has written a Zope product that "works" I really don't
care what language it's in (ok, I "do," but not entirely :).  If it's broken
then I'll fix/extend/rewrite it.  The fact that we can leverage Perl
resources now and port them over time (if it even makes sense to do so) is
beneficial.  If it ain't broke...  Of course, there are many Perl apps out
there that would benefit greatly from the Zope environment and people will
eventually port them over if Python will make them better.  And, if not,
there are books on Perl that would enable a relatively competent Python
programmer to hack their way through it.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Mike


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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed

2000-05-25 Thread Ken Manheimer

On 25 May 2000, Roman Milner wrote:

  "KM" == Ken Manheimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
 KM I have some misgivings with this outlook.  It sounds like
 KM people who seek job security by having expertise with a system
 KM that closes out unfamiliar options - whether the options are
 KM better or worse.
 
 I'm not in any way unfamiliar with perl.  If this had been a language
 that I didn't know or, or any technology that I didn't know - I
 would have an opened mind.  I've been down the perl road, and have made a
 personal choice never to do it again.

I should have used "unwelcome" instead of "unfamiliar" in that
sentence - i tried to say that in a number of ways, eg:

Me For all of you that love Python, and testify to either leaving perl
Me with great relief or not being willing to learn it in the first place

 [...]

 I think that anyone who wants to claim Zope expertise will need to
 know and be willing to code in perl.

I dunno.  There may be some Zope jobs where knowing perl would be
necessary, but there may also be some jobs where knowing XML, SQL,
XLST(?), WebDAV, the ZODB, SSL, LDAP, Oracle, medusa, C, *all* sorts
of things would be necessary.  Maybe you're proficient with all those
things - i'm not!  The thing is, Zope is an extensible ORB whose
primary purpose in life is to connect disparate things together - you
shouldn't need to be proficient with every aspect of it, in order to
have mastery with it.

I guess i can understand being uncomfortable with seeing a transition
from a somewhat closed, very attractive (python) world to a more
wide-open one that includes less attractive elements.  Nonetheless, i
really think this ultimately means that your zope skills are going to
be more valuable, whether or not they include the perl aspect, because
zope as a whole will have wider acceptance, a firmer place in the
world.

(Do you think the perl folks are, conversely, going to feel they have
to know python?  I have to say, i esteem python enough to think that
the ultimate result will be increasing prevalence and preference for
python.)

Ken Manheimer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed

2000-05-25 Thread mindlace

Roman Milner wrote:

 For zope, you will just have to
 "know zope" - employers will see "zope" and a language just like
 parents see "understanding computers" as knowing how to fix their windows
 boxes :)

I feel like I "know zope", but I don't have a deep understanding of
python, or a comprehensive grasp of how it handles SQL.  Indeed, I'm not
particularly fond of relational databases- but I think that's a phobia,
and I'll get over it soon enough.

 We have a lot of former perl coders here and they won't be able to
 resist the new fancy perl methods.  And within a short while we will
 have a body code dung.

A body code dung?  I can't possibly see how Perl Methods are going to
lead to some imagined core source corruption.  If a method is availiable
in perl, so what?

I mean, all of these "Methods" are going to have to talk the same way to
the zope machinery.  If you want to leave a Perl Method as a black box,
then nothing should stop you.  The very nature of Methods means that
no-one is going to write PerlOffice in a single method.

If someone has a substantial investment in Perl, and they want to keep
that as an External Method in order transition to Zope, then they should
be able to.  It has been a barrier to the adoption of Zope more than
once, I would imagine.

One of the big stumbling blocks for me, in my adoption of zope, is that
it "forced" me to do it with python or not at all.

 Perhaps this is a disadvantage to the DC company-owned open-source
 project model.  They will make bad decisions based on potential
 profit.

This is a complete slam, and totally unjustified.  ZOPE means "The Z
Object Publishing System".  publishing Perl methods as objects is just
as valid as publishing any other kind of object.
It is an open source project, with all the benifits thereof.  If you
really feel that it needs to be "OPOPS", the Only Python Object
Publishing System, and that any non-python object is anathema, go right
ahead.

 I don't buy this bit about being able to access 1000's of wonderful
 perl modules.  Most people that I know who have made the switched at
 how much better the python library is the perl's.

So fine.  Be confident in your language, and assume that people will
transition to python as they move in to using zope.

 Sorry for being a tad emotional here.  I'm sure I will calm down -
 it's just that yesterday I was one of the most adamant Zope evangelist
 around.  Today...

Today you're taking one of the logical consequences in the development
of an object publishing system and turning it into something that it's
really not.  The reality of web publishing is that people use a variety
of tools and languages to accomplish their goals, and any object
publishing system that wants to be worthy of the name needs to play
nicely with as many as possible.

opinions-are-mine-ly yours,

ethan mindlace fremen
Zopista Community Liason

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