[Zope-dev] Zope tests: 8 OK

2006-01-18 Thread Zope tests summarizer
Summary of messages to the zope-tests list.
Period Tue Jan 17 12:01:01 2006 UTC to Wed Jan 18 12:01:01 2006 UTC.
There were 8 messages: 8 from Zope Unit Tests.


Tests passed OK
---

Subject: OK : Zope-2_6-branch Python-2.1.3 : Linux
From: Zope Unit Tests
Date: Tue Jan 17 21:03:32 EST 2006
URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2006-January/004034.html

Subject: OK : Zope-2_6-branch Python-2.3.5 : Linux
From: Zope Unit Tests
Date: Tue Jan 17 21:05:03 EST 2006
URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2006-January/004035.html

Subject: OK : Zope-2_7-branch Python-2.3.5 : Linux
From: Zope Unit Tests
Date: Tue Jan 17 21:06:33 EST 2006
URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2006-January/004036.html

Subject: OK : Zope-2_7-branch Python-2.4.2 : Linux
From: Zope Unit Tests
Date: Tue Jan 17 21:08:03 EST 2006
URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2006-January/004037.html

Subject: OK : Zope-2_8-branch Python-2.3.5 : Linux
From: Zope Unit Tests
Date: Tue Jan 17 21:09:33 EST 2006
URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2006-January/004038.html

Subject: OK : Zope-2_8-branch Python-2.4.2 : Linux
From: Zope Unit Tests
Date: Tue Jan 17 21:11:03 EST 2006
URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2006-January/004039.html

Subject: OK : Zope-2_9-branch Python-2.4.2 : Linux
From: Zope Unit Tests
Date: Tue Jan 17 21:12:33 EST 2006
URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2006-January/004040.html

Subject: OK : Zope-trunk Python-2.4.2 : Linux
From: Zope Unit Tests
Date: Tue Jan 17 21:14:03 EST 2006
URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2006-January/004041.html

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[Zope-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Jim Fulton

Now that I've had a week or so to recover from making the Zope 3
releases, I'd like to look at how we did on our first timed releases.

Of course, the releases didn't happen in December.  In fact, the Zope 2
Windows release still hasn't happened.

That we were late isn't a great surprise, given that this was
our first timed release.  The beginning of the release cycle was delayed
because people didn't really realize/remember that we needed to freeze by
November 1.

The release was delayed past December in large part due to problems
found with the Zope 3 Twisted server.  In retrospect, I should have accepted
these, made ZServer the default and marked the twisted server experimental.
Instead, I spent 2 weeks thinking the resolution only needed a few more hours
of work.  I should have known better.  I'm disappointed that the people
pushing the Twisted server didn't provide more help during this period, but
it was a holiday time and one of the main drivers, Stephan, warned way
in advance that we shouldn't be finishing a release during a holiday period.
Of course, we should have been finishing the release in early December.

In the future, if someone introduces a major change, they *must* be
committed to be available to deal with issues that arise during the
release cycle.  Perhaps we need to pick different release dates to
avoid holidays.  Stephan has suggested moving the dates up to
November/May rather than December/June.

And then there are the Windows releases.  Making Zope 2 windows releases
is very painful and there don't seem to be many people willing to help.
We've avoided the pain for Zope 3 by being less ambitious.  We let distutils
do most of the work.  The result is that making a windows release takes minutes
and is highly automated, but the experience for the end user is less than
ideal,  Many would rightfully argue that it is inadequate.  What we need
is a release process that is as easy as the Zope 3 windows release process
and produces a result as usable as the Zope 2 windows release.  I'm not sure
exactly what the answer is, but I am sure we need to take a fresh approach.
Whatever approach we take needs to be highly automated and must not require
a lot of specialized Windows expertise.

I think that packaging is a significant challenge to our release process.
The Zope 2 release was complicated by the use of zpkg.  The zpkg system
was developed to allow us to decouple the Zope 3 repository and releases.
It was too painful to mold the repository to fleeting release decisions.
We wanted people to put experimental and add-on applications in the
repository so that they would be tested as we rapidly evolved things.  While
zpkg was crucial for the last 3 releases, I don't think it provides the best
long-term approach.  Rather than extracting a release from a larger repository
tree, I think it would be better, going forward, to assemble a release from
smaller individual repository trees or from releases.  This is feasible because:

- Python is finally growing a packaging system with eggs,

- buildbot provides a mechanism for getting things tested without
  putting everything in a single repository, and

- the new test runner's layer makes it feasible to define independent
  functional tests for packages.

We have begun to see Zope 3 decomposed into separate projects knit together
via svn:externals.  I'd like to see that trend continue and to perhaps
switch to making the knitting process use eggs,  I'd like to leverage
eggs to make the release process much simpler.  It should be easy for people
to make releases so that there could easily be multiple distributions
aimed at different needs and expectations.

As part of this decomposition, we need to make zope.app much smaller.
Early in Zope 3 development, I proposed a simple rule for organization of
the repository: Anything that depended on zope.app went in zope.app. Anything
else went in zope.  If there was doubt, put it in zope.app.  I think that
served us well at the time, but I think we've moved beyond that,  I'd like
to migrate most of zope.app elsewhere.  Zope 2.10 should not include zope.app.

Note that I'm banking heavily on eggs without personally having worked with
them much.  I'm very hopeful that we can make them work for us.

In the end, I consider the December release to be largely successful, given
the challenges.

These were some of my reactions to this first attempt at time-based releases.
What do other folks think?

Given that the Zope Foudation will be formed during this next release cycle,
I think this is a good time to take stock and think about how to move
forward,

Jim

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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Sidnei da Silva
On Wed, Jan 18, 2006 at 07:36:35AM -0500, Jim Fulton wrote:
| And then there are the Windows releases.  Making Zope 2 windows releases
| is very painful and there don't seem to be many people willing to help.
| We've avoided the pain for Zope 3 by being less ambitious.  We let distutils
| do most of the work.  The result is that making a windows release takes 
| minutes
| and is highly automated, but the experience for the end user is less than
| ideal,  Many would rightfully argue that it is inadequate.  What we need
| is a release process that is as easy as the Zope 3 windows release process
| and produces a result as usable as the Zope 2 windows release.  I'm not sure
| exactly what the answer is, but I am sure we need to take a fresh approach.
| Whatever approach we take needs to be highly automated and must not require
| a lot of specialized Windows expertise.

The installers do not require much Windows expertise. In fact, they
require a lot of 'makefile' expertise right now, and some Inno Setup
expertise, not much else.

At Enfold Systems we are using our own home-grown python-based process
to cobble together all the dependencies for building installers. We
haven't switched to Zope 2.9 though.

When the time comes around for a switch, our goal is to switch from
Inno Setup to Wix [1], at which point we hope to contribute this work
to Zope. That might take another 6 months though and sure we don't
want to hold back the Zope Windows installers that long.

[1] http://blogs.msdn.com/robmen/archive/2004/04/05/107709.aspx

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http://enfoldsystems.com
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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Lennart Regebro
On 1/18/06, Jim Fulton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 These were some of my reactions to this first attempt at time-based releases.
 What do other folks think?

I think early January is an understandable delay, considering that
midwinter celebrations came in the way. Great work everyone!

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Re: [Zope-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Andreas Jung



--On 18. Januar 2006 07:36:35 -0500 Jim Fulton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



In the future, if someone introduces a major change, they *must* be
committed to be available to deal with issues that arise during the
release cycle.  Perhaps we need to pick different release dates to
avoid holidays.  Stephan has suggested moving the dates up to
November/May rather than December/June.


+1 for moving the dates. Speaking for the Zope 2 release:

- the zpkg chances were introduced very late and it was somewhat annoying
  to deal with this almost untested changes during the betas (not blaming
  Philipp here,  he has done a tremendous lot of work)

In addition such major changes should happen on a branch and not on the 
trunk and such changes should be started early before the next release (not 
week or two before the first beta).




And then there are the Windows releases.  Making Zope 2 windows releases
is very painful and there don't seem to be many people willing to help.
We've avoided the pain for Zope 3 by being less ambitious.  We let
distutils
do most of the work.  The result is that making a windows release takes
minutes
and is highly automated, but the experience for the end user is less than
ideal,  Many would rightfully argue that it is inadequate.  What we need
is a release process that is as easy as the Zope 3 windows release process
and produces a result as usable as the Zope 2 windows release.  I'm not
sure
exactly what the answer is, but I am sure we need to take a fresh
approach.
Whatever approach we take needs to be highly automated and must not
require
a lot of specialized Windows expertise.


The basic problem with the windows release is that there is currently
nobody in charge for the windows release (although Tim is again doing 
working on the Windows side, ALL HAIL TIM).






Note that I'm banking heavily on eggs without personally having worked
with
them much.  I'm very hopeful that we can make them work for us.

In the end, I consider the December release to be largely successful,
given
the challenges.


It was basically a birth with some pain :-)



These were some of my reactions to this first attempt at time-based
releases.
What do other folks think?


I think 2.9.0 is the _real_ 2.9 beta which will be widely used by ppl :-)


-aj

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[Zope-dev] Re: December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Rocky Burt
Andreas Jung wrote:
 I think 2.9.0 is the _real_ 2.9 beta which will be widely used by ppl :-)

Isn't this always the case? :)(ie with all 2.x.0 releses)

- Rocky

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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Jim Fulton

Sidnei da Silva wrote:

On Wed, Jan 18, 2006 at 07:36:35AM -0500, Jim Fulton wrote:
| And then there are the Windows releases.  Making Zope 2 windows releases
| is very painful and there don't seem to be many people willing to help.
| We've avoided the pain for Zope 3 by being less ambitious.  We let distutils
| do most of the work.  The result is that making a windows release takes 
| minutes

| and is highly automated, but the experience for the end user is less than
| ideal,  Many would rightfully argue that it is inadequate.  What we need
| is a release process that is as easy as the Zope 3 windows release process
| and produces a result as usable as the Zope 2 windows release.  I'm not sure
| exactly what the answer is, but I am sure we need to take a fresh approach.
| Whatever approach we take needs to be highly automated and must not require
| a lot of specialized Windows expertise.

The installers do not require much Windows expertise. In fact, they
require a lot of 'makefile' expertise right now, and some Inno Setup
expertise, not much else.


Sorry, Inno Setup is a windows installation builder.  I consider this
windows expertise.


At Enfold Systems we are using our own home-grown python-based process
to cobble together all the dependencies for building installers. We
haven't switched to Zope 2.9 though.


I consider switching build languages from make to Python a definate
step forward.


When the time comes around for a switch, our goal is to switch from
Inno Setup to Wix [1], at which point we hope to contribute this work
to Zope. That might take another 6 months though and sure we don't
want to hold back the Zope Windows installers that long.


Unless the process is automated enough that *I* can do it,
whoever suggests a new system needs to be prepared to
operate it reliably as well.

Jim

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Re: [Zope-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Jim Fulton

Andreas Jung wrote:



...

The basic problem with the windows release is that there is currently
nobody in charge for the windows release (although Tim is again doing 
working on the Windows side, ALL HAIL TIM).


I'll repeat or emphasis that the windows release process needs to
be simple enough that *I* can do it.  This means that the process should
be simple and well documented enough that someone like me can follow it
without thinking. Thinking is hard.

Jim

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Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: [Zope-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Jim Fulton

Andreas Jung wrote:
...

I think 2.9.0 is the _real_ 2.9 beta which will be widely used by ppl :-)


I could be wrong, but if we stick to a 6-month release cycle for feature
releases, I don't think there is going to be much appetite for bug-fix
releases, except in extreme cases, and I think it will be more important
to get the feature releases right.

Of course, this required commitment from the community.

Jim

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Re: [Zope-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Andreas Jung



--On 18. Januar 2006 10:31:03 -0500 Jim Fulton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Andreas Jung wrote:



...

The basic problem with the windows release is that there is currently
nobody in charge for the windows release (although Tim is again doing
working on the Windows side, ALL HAIL TIM).


I'll repeat or emphasis that the windows release process needs to
be simple enough that *I* can do it.


Well, that's a perfect goal :-) But my experience with doing slightly 
simple programming tasks on Windows is that Windows will slap you wherever 
possible - even when you're trying to solve simple problems. I stopped 
dreaming that anything on Windows works as it should.


just-being-a-frustrated-windows-hacker-(sometimes),
Andreas



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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Sidnei da Silva
On Wed, Jan 18, 2006 at 10:27:25AM -0500, Jim Fulton wrote:
| The installers do not require much Windows expertise. In fact, they
| require a lot of 'makefile' expertise right now, and some Inno Setup
| expertise, not much else.
| 
| Sorry, Inno Setup is a windows installation builder.  I consider this
| windows expertise.

You don't have to know how to operate Inno Setup for building a
installer though. It pretty much boils down to editing the makefiles
to contain the proper version number and typing 'make'. I would
consider that automated enough. What about adding a target that does
this into the buildbot so we get nightly installers?

-- 
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Enfold Systems, LLC.
http://enfoldsystems.com
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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Jim Fulton

Sidnei da Silva wrote:

On Wed, Jan 18, 2006 at 10:27:25AM -0500, Jim Fulton wrote:
| The installers do not require much Windows expertise. In fact, they
| require a lot of 'makefile' expertise right now, and some Inno Setup
| expertise, not much else.
| 
| Sorry, Inno Setup is a windows installation builder.  I consider this

| windows expertise.

You don't have to know how to operate Inno Setup for building a
installer though. It pretty much boils down to editing the makefiles
to contain the proper version number and typing 'make'. I would
consider that automated enough. What about adding a target that does
this into the buildbot so we get nightly installers?


People up to now have come up with systems like this that they thought were
automated enough.  That's why we don't have a 2.9 release for windows.

Jim

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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Christian Theune
Hi,

On Wed, 2006-01-18 at 13:40 -0200, Sidnei da Silva wrote:
 On Wed, Jan 18, 2006 at 10:27:25AM -0500, Jim Fulton wrote:
 | The installers do not require much Windows expertise. In fact, they
 | require a lot of 'makefile' expertise right now, and some Inno Setup
 | expertise, not much else.
 | 
 | Sorry, Inno Setup is a windows installation builder.  I consider this
 | windows expertise.
 
 You don't have to know how to operate Inno Setup for building a
 installer though. It pretty much boils down to editing the makefiles
 to contain the proper version number and typing 'make'. I would
 consider that automated enough. What about adding a target that does
 this into the buildbot so we get nightly installers?

You have to know Inno. I took care for the Windows builds for a while
and it was a large pain to get it started. I'm not a natural windows
hacker, although I was developing on windows some years ago and know my
way around. Additionally the whole cludge (was/is) very fragile so that
new releases pretty reliably required tweaking the build environment.

As Tim said one day: You need to work/develop on windows on a daily
basis to be able to cut releases for it.

I'd second this for any platform actually.

Christian

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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Sidnei da Silva
On Wed, Jan 18, 2006 at 10:45:20AM -0500, Jim Fulton wrote:
| People up to now have come up with systems like this that they thought were
| automated enough.  That's why we don't have a 2.9 release for windows.

What about we turn that around. How would you describe a 'automated
enough' build environment? I suspect you consider:

  python setup.py bdist_wininst

to be pretty close to that. How does it differ from:

  make installer

once all dependencies are in place?

I agree that the procedure for building the current Windows installer,
though documented (yes, it is documented), has more steps than
required. One place where it could be streamlined is that it expects
you to download the Python 2.3 Windows Installer and tarball manually
and put them into a specific directory. That could certainly be done
by the makefile.

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Enfold Systems, LLC.
http://enfoldsystems.com
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Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: [Zope-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Sidnei da Silva
On Wed, Jan 18, 2006 at 04:37:12PM +0100, Andreas Jung wrote:
| I'll repeat or emphasis that the windows release process needs to
| be simple enough that *I* can do it.
| 
| Well, that's a perfect goal :-) But my experience with doing slightly 
| simple programming tasks on Windows is that Windows will slap you wherever 
| possible - even when you're trying to solve simple problems. I stopped 
| dreaming that anything on Windows works as it should.

I'll add to that that I used to think this way, too, but Mark Hammond
slowly convinced me otherwise.

Today I have the opinion that no matter what other people say, Windows
is actually superior to *anything* I've seen in Linux or OS X, except
for the networking stack and process management. COM, for example, is
very cool stuff.

You should see some of the stuff Mark has done that allows one to call
pretty much any Python object via COM from any language that supports
COM as long as the Python object has a interface declaration using
'zope.interface'. I'm still waiting to see something like COM on the
Linux world.

Over with the bashing, back to the topic now.

-- 
Sidnei da Silva
Enfold Systems, LLC.
http://enfoldsystems.com


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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Jim Fulton

Sidnei da Silva wrote:

On Wed, Jan 18, 2006 at 10:45:20AM -0500, Jim Fulton wrote:
| People up to now have come up with systems like this that they thought were
| automated enough.  That's why we don't have a 2.9 release for windows.

What about we turn that around. How would you describe a 'automated
enough' build environment? I suspect you consider:

  python setup.py bdist_wininst

to be pretty close to that.


I think

http://www.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/ZopeWindowsRelease

Is pretty close.  Note that this has a number os steps, but there are few
and they are well documented, so I don't have to think.

 How does it differ from:


  make installer


It uses a real language.


once all dependencies are in place?


The process has to include getting al of the dependencies in place.


I agree that the procedure for building the current Windows installer,
though documented (yes, it is documented), has more steps than
required. One place where it could be streamlined is that it expects
you to download the Python 2.3 Windows Installer and tarball manually
and put them into a specific directory. That could certainly be done
by the makefile.


As I said before, the fact that we don't have a windows release
is proof that the process isn't automated enough.  I also know
for a fact that Tim did a *lot* of work to get the installer that
he asked people to review.  This might be inevitable, given the
changes in Python, but I don't think it needs to be as bad as it is.

And, as I said before, we shouldn't be inventing this ourselves
if we can possibly avoid it.

Jim

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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Martijn Faassen

Hey,

First, I'd like to thank you and everyone involved in the Zope 2 and
Zope 3 releases for making this time-based release in what I consider to
be a smashing success. Thanks for all the hard work! Things were late a 
bit, some things are imperfect, but we in the community are already 
feeling the positive effects of being able to plan for releases. I want 
Jim to be sure he realizes it's a success from other's perspective as well.


Several great features are probably in Zope 2 now in part due to the
time-based release system. I want to point out for special attention
Florent's great work on making Zope 3 style events work with Zope 2.
This is no less than fantastic. This kind of work might've lingered for 
a long time if release dates were uncertain.



Jim Fulton wrote:

Now that I've had a week or so to recover from making the Zope 3 
releases, I'd like to look at how we did on our first timed releases.


Thanks for doing the post-mortem. Very valuable.


Of course, the releases didn't happen in December.  In fact, the Zope
2 Windows release still hasn't happened.

That we were late isn't a great surprise, given that this was our
first timed release.  The beginning of the release cycle was delayed 
because people didn't really realize/remember that we needed to

freeze by November 1.


[snip]

In the future, if someone introduces a major change, they *must* be 
committed to be available to deal with issues that arise during the 
release cycle.  Perhaps we need to pick different release dates to 
avoid holidays.  Stephan has suggested moving the dates up to 
November/May rather than December/June.


+1 to moving the dates to be further away from holiday seasons.


And then there are the Windows releases.  Making Zope 2 windows
releases is very painful and there don't seem to be many people
willing to help.

[snip]

Getting a dedicated volunteer to work on Windows releases seems to be
hard. I've tried with lxml and while several people have successfully
compiled it on Windows, and several people volunteered to help with
releases, it still hasn't gotten off the ground.

I'm glad the decision was made to let Windows not be a release blocker.
We're not the only one with this problem. A few months ago I was reading
the Apache HTTP server mailing lists and to my surprise found a thread
talking about how their process was failing. The Apache HTTP server has
a very strict policy concerning changes to the codebase; they have to be
vetted by other programmers before they can go in. There were some 
problems pointed out about this procedure slowing things down, but 
interestingly enough one of the blockers for making new releases of 
Apache was the volunteers not knowing how to do a Windows release. :)



I think that packaging is a significant challenge to our release
process. The Zope 2 release was complicated by the use of zpkg.  The
zpkg system was developed to allow us to decouple the Zope 3
repository and releases. It was too painful to mold the repository to
fleeting release decisions. We wanted people to put experimental and
add-on applications in the repository so that they would be tested as
we rapidly evolved things. While zpkg was crucial for the last 3
releases, I don't think it provides the best long-term approach.
Rather than extracting a release from a larger repository tree, I
think it would be better, going forward, to assemble a release from 
smaller individual repository trees or from releases. 


I'm glad this is being given a re-think.

How do you assemble releases 'from releases'? I'm not sure I understand 
that. You mean make a Zope 2 release using a Zope 3 release?


You know my position concerning the repository and the release; I'd 
prefer them to be kept as similar as possible to simplify the release 
process. I hope we can go in that direction. It also makes things more 
predictable to developers. We noticed that some Zope 3 packages weren't 
packaged into Zope 2 after the release, even though in a developer's 
sandbox of Zope 2 they were there.


As a side issue: From the perspective of Five, it is beneficial to have 
as much Zope 3 code included into Zope 2 releases, as that gives us an 
opportunity to start using this functionality right away, exposing it to 
Zope 2, without waiting for a new release.


[snip]

We have begun to see Zope 3 decomposed into separate projects knit
together via svn:externals.  I'd like to see that trend continue and
to perhaps switch to making the knitting process use eggs,  I'd like
to leverage eggs to make the release process much simpler.  It should
be easy for people to make releases so that there could easily be
multiple distributions aimed at different needs and expectations.


I'll repeat here that I think there's much value in trying to keep the 
mapping of the SVN repository very similar to what is actually released. 
  (If you're interested I can try to explain some of my thinking a bit 
deeply.) Eggs are a nice distribution mechanism, but 

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: [Zope-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Martijn Faassen

Sidnei da Silva wrote:

[snip OS flamewar in the bud] :)

Regards,

Martijn
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Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: [Zope-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Martijn Faassen

Jim Fulton wrote:

Andreas Jung wrote:
...

I think 2.9.0 is the _real_ 2.9 beta which will be widely used by ppl :-)


I could be wrong, but if we stick to a 6-month release cycle for feature
releases, I don't think there is going to be much appetite for bug-fix
releases, except in extreme cases, and I think it will be more important
to get the feature releases right.


I expect a fairly normal progression of bugfix releases myself, except 
that hopefully less features will sneak in as has been the case with 
older Zope 2.x releases. So we'll see less bugfix releases, but only 
because we're not fixing features in them. :)


Regards,

Martijn
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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Sidnei da Silva
On Wed, Jan 18, 2006 at 11:24:20AM -0500, Jim Fulton wrote:
| Sidnei da Silva wrote:
| On Wed, Jan 18, 2006 at 10:45:20AM -0500, Jim Fulton wrote:
| | People up to now have come up with systems like this that they thought 
| were
| | automated enough.  That's why we don't have a 2.9 release for windows.
| 
| What about we turn that around. How would you describe a 'automated
| enough' build environment? I suspect you consider:
| 
|   python setup.py bdist_wininst
| 
| to be pretty close to that.
| 
| I think
| 
| 
http://www.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/ZopeWindowsRelease
| 
| Is pretty close.  Note that this has a number os steps, but there are few
| and they are well documented, so I don't have to think.

Not that much different from what already exists for Zope 2:

http://svn.zope.org/Zope/trunk/inst/WinBuilders/README.txt?rev=39675view=auto

| As I said before, the fact that we don't have a windows release
| is proof that the process isn't automated enough.

That's not a proof that the process is not automated enough. The
transition from python2.3 to 2.4 *is* non-trivial because python
changed from distutils to MSI.

-- 
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Enfold Systems, LLC.
http://enfoldsystems.com
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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Jim Fulton

Sidnei da Silva wrote:
...

| As I said before, the fact that we don't have a windows release
| is proof that the process isn't automated enough.

That's not a proof that the process is not automated enough. The
transition from python2.3 to 2.4 *is* non-trivial because python
changed from distutils to MSI.


Except that the same sort of problems occurred with 2.8.

Jim

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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Sidnei da Silva
On Wed, Jan 18, 2006 at 11:46:33AM -0500, Jim Fulton wrote:
| Sidnei da Silva wrote:
| ...
| | As I said before, the fact that we don't have a windows release
| | is proof that the process isn't automated enough.
| 
| That's not a proof that the process is not automated enough. The
| transition from python2.3 to 2.4 *is* non-trivial because python
| changed from distutils to MSI.
| 
| Except that the same sort of problems occurred with 2.8.

I would describe the problems with the Windows installers as lack of
interest by the developers, not problems with installer building
automation.

One way or another, the best I can propose right now is to integrate
the building of the Windows installer into a buildbot, either ZC's or
Enfold Systems'.

We already build the nightly Windows Installer for Plone, so it
wouldn't be a big deal to do the same for Zope.

-- 
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Enfold Systems, LLC.
http://enfoldsystems.com
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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Jim Fulton

Sidnei da Silva wrote:

On Wed, Jan 18, 2006 at 11:46:33AM -0500, Jim Fulton wrote:
| Sidnei da Silva wrote:
| ...
| | As I said before, the fact that we don't have a windows release
| | is proof that the process isn't automated enough.
| 
| That's not a proof that the process is not automated enough. The
| transition from python2.3 to 2.4 *is* non-trivial because python
| changed from distutils to MSI.
| 
| Except that the same sort of problems occurred with 2.8.


I would describe the problems with the Windows installers as lack of
interest by the developers, not problems with installer building
automation.


We don't have any more Windows interest for Zope 3, but we have no
problem creating windows releases. That's because we made the barrier
very low.


One way or another, the best I can propose right now is to integrate
the building of the Windows installer into a buildbot, either ZC's or
Enfold Systems'.

We already build the nightly Windows Installer for Plone, so it
wouldn't be a big deal to do the same for Zope.


Cool. Then we can just pick up tomorrows output and ship that. ;)

Jim

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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Stephan Richter
On Wednesday 18 January 2006 11:27, Martijn Faassen wrote:
 How do you assemble releases 'from releases'? I'm not sure I understand
 that. You mean make a Zope 2 release using a Zope 3 release?

I'll note that SchoolTool greatly benefits from the current release building. 
We simply include all the Zope 3 dependencies in our dependency list and 
build the release. We can decide to include Zope 3 dependencies or not. 
Overall I think zpkg is a great win and whatever we do next should not remove 
those features.

Regards,
Stephan
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Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training
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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Tim Peters
We should distinguish between authoring the Windows
build-the-installer code, and running that code.  Making a Zope 2
Windows release consists of _running_ the build-the-installer code,
and is easy.  It's actually easier than building a Zope 3 Windows
release:  once the Python tarball, Zope 2 tarball, and pywin32
installer are downloaded, building a Zope 2 release consists of typing
one command in a Cygwin shell:

WinBuilders/buildout zope

That's it.

_Authoring_ the Zope 2 build-the-installer code has been a royal PITA,
but work is needed there only when packaging gimmicks change.  Like
moving to zpkgtools, or moving away from them again, or moving to a
different packaging system for one of the components (like Python
moving from a Wise installer to an MSI installer for 2.4, or pywin32
earlier moving from a Wise installer to a distutils installer). 
Across the long life of Zope 2.7, those things changed very little,
and as a result very little needed to change in the
build-the-installer code across 2.7's life.  2.7 Windows releases
remained easy to build across that time (granting that Mark Hammond
did the work to adjust to pywin32's packaging changes).

2.8 Windows releases were/are similarly easy to build.

A lot of new work was needed for 2.9, due to Python and zpkgtools
changes.  I also took the opportunity to upgrade from InnoSetup 4 to
version 5, which introduced a much easier scheme for managing the
custom dialog screens in the Zope installer.

All of that ended up making the build-the-installer code substantially
simpler, to the point where it now seems kinda goofy to use makefiles
at all in the process.  Makefile mazes are inscrutable, and are
particularly ill-suited to the true nature of this task:  unpack
various tarballs, and rearrange them like so.

Finishing a Windows release of Zope 2 or Zope 3 takes much longer than
just minutes, unless you skip testing.  If you do skip testing, then
it's minutes for both.  Testing Zope as a Windows service is harder
for Zope 3, because the Zope 3 installer doesn't (but the Zope 2
installer does) install or start the service, or auto-stop and remove
the service when Zope is uninstalled.  BTW, Zope3 _could_ do that too
with a suitable post-install/pre-uninstall script, which is something
InnoSetup automates for Zope2.

It can take a Windows expert some days to author Zope2
build-the-installer changes when packaging fashions change (whether
Zope's or the repackaged components').  InnoSetup is the least of the
problems there, and while MSI is the coming fashion, slinging MSI code
appears to require much more knowledge than slinging InnoSetup
declarations.

The idea that it takes Windows expertise to write an InnoSetup
declaration is wrong:  such lines merely say take the files you find
_here_ now, and put them _there_ when the installer runs.  For
example, this is the entire Inno code needed to install Zope 2's lib/
directory:

Source:lib\*.*; DestDir: {app}\lib; Flags: ignoreversion recursesubdirs

That kind of stuff is truly trivial.  It does take Inno expertise to
create and manage the installer's dialog screens (manage == e.g., if
the user chooses not to have the installer create an instance home,
then the dialog asking for the instance home's directory shouldn't be
shown), but those typically don't change across releases.
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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Jim Fulton

Martijn Faassen wrote:
...

How do you assemble releases 'from releases'? I'm not sure I understand 
that. You mean make a Zope 2 release using a Zope 3 release?


No, I mean using eggs.  Zope should be broken into separate projects
with their own eggs.  A Zope release might just be an egg with dependencies.
Or it might just be a collection of eggs.

You know my position concerning the repository and the release; I'd 
prefer them to be kept as similar as possible to simplify the release 
process. I hope we can go in that direction. It also makes things more 
predictable to developers. We noticed that some Zope 3 packages weren't 
packaged into Zope 2 after the release, even though in a developer's 
sandbox of Zope 2 they were there.


Right. If eggs work out, then a respository check out will be a lot smaller,
but will download needed eggs.  This would be a replacement of the
use of externals we have now.

As a side issue: From the perspective of Five, it is beneficial to have 
as much Zope 3 code included into Zope 2 releases, as that gives us an 
opportunity to start using this functionality right away, exposing it to 
Zope 2, without waiting for a new release.


Understand though that there is nothing like a backward compatibility
promise for something that hasn't been released.


[snip]


We have begun to see Zope 3 decomposed into separate projects knit
together via svn:externals.  I'd like to see that trend continue and
to perhaps switch to making the knitting process use eggs,  I'd like
to leverage eggs to make the release process much simpler.  It should
be easy for people to make releases so that there could easily be
multiple distributions aimed at different needs and expectations.



I'll repeat here that I think there's much value in trying to keep the 
mapping of the SVN repository very similar to what is actually released. 


I think I understand where you are coming from.

  (If you're interested I can try to explain some of my thinking a bit 
deeply.) Eggs are a nice distribution mechanism, but I'd also want the 
knitting process to work for a SVN checkout -- developers working with 
SVN need to be very easily work with a 'knitted' version, so perhaps 
svn:externals will remain a valuable tool.


Assuming that eggs fullfill their promise, I think I'd
rather use eggs than externals.


As part of this decomposition, we need to make zope.app much smaller.
 Early in Zope 3 development, I proposed a simple rule for
organization of the repository: Anything that depended on zope.app
went in zope.app. Anything else went in zope.  If there was doubt,
put it in zope.app.  I think that served us well at the time, but I
think we've moved beyond that,  I'd like to migrate most of zope.app
elsewhere.  Zope 2.10 should not include zope.app.



This worries me; Five is currently using massive quantities of code in 
zope.app, and as expressed above, I value Five having access to 
potentially all Zope 3 code that's in a Zope 3 release.


The code that Five is using will still be available, but it will be
somewhere else (with necessary backward compatibility hacks).

Jim
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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Jim Fulton

Stephan Richter wrote:

On Wednesday 18 January 2006 11:27, Martijn Faassen wrote:


How do you assemble releases 'from releases'? I'm not sure I understand
that. You mean make a Zope 2 release using a Zope 3 release?



I'll note that SchoolTool greatly benefits from the current release building. 
We simply include all the Zope 3 dependencies in our dependency list and 
build the release. We can decide to include Zope 3 dependencies or not. 
Overall I think zpkg is a great win and whatever we do next should not remove 
those features.


I agree that dependency based releases -- and development is great.  I think
eggs are a lot farther along that zpkg. (Eggs weren't around when we started
zpkg.)  If eggs work out, as I hope they will, I'd like to stop work on
zpkg and just use eggs.

Jim

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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Fred Drake
On 1/18/06, Jim Fulton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 If eggs work out, as I hope they will, I'd like to stop work on
 zpkg and just use eggs.

+42


  -Fred

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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] December release post-mortem

2006-01-18 Thread Stephan Richter
On Wednesday 18 January 2006 19:09, Jim Fulton wrote:
  You know my position concerning the repository and the release; I'd
  prefer them to be kept as similar as possible to simplify the release
  process. I hope we can go in that direction. It also makes things more
  predictable to developers. We noticed that some Zope 3 packages weren't
  packaged into Zope 2 after the release, even though in a developer's
  sandbox of Zope 2 they were there.

 Right. If eggs work out, then a respository check out will be a lot
 smaller, but will download needed eggs.  This would be a replacement of the
 use of externals we have now.

Oh, this will make development so much more tedious. Let's say 
zope.testbrowser is an egg and I discover a bug in zope.textbrowser while 
doing some other Zope 3 development, I have to check out zope.testbrowser, 
fix the bug, check it in, download the new egg and hope it fixed my Zope 3 
problem. Honestly this is far too much and I will at most make a bug report.

I have seen you take a similar approach to zope.testing and I found that 
painful just by watching the checkins. I feel like an old record, but please 
let's keep the development process as simple as possible. I rather make some 
concessions to the packaging and dependency system than spending more time 
developing.

Regards,
Stephan
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Re: [Zope] Products have incorrect home attribute

2006-01-18 Thread Martijn Pieters
On 1/18/06, Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 What and where is the 'home' attribute?

In lib/python/App/Product.py line 549:

  product.home=home

'home' is the product path as determined by
OFS.Application.install_product; it looks, from a cursory glance, that
this should be reset every time Zope is restart.

It should be perfectly safe to delete the Products from your Control
Panel Products folder and restart Zope to have them recreated though.
If you don't trust this procedure, back up the ZODB, but from my
reading this should happen every time you start Zope anyway.

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Re: [Zope] Products have incorrect home attribute

2006-01-18 Thread Luca Olivetti

En/na Andreas Jung ha escrit:



--On 18. Januar 2006 08:19:25 +0100 Martijn Pieters [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:



On 1/18/06, Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

What and where is the 'home' attribute?


In lib/python/App/Product.py line 549:

  product.home=home

'home' is the product path as determined by
OFS.Application.install_product; it looks, from a cursory glance, that
this should be reset every time Zope is restart.


I asked the same question a couple of days ago (see wrong directoy in 
Control_Panel.Products..home) and no, they aren't reset at zope 
restart, and deleting the pyc files doesn't help either.




huuh...never seen that...looks like a culprit...who actually uses that 
information?


CMFQuickInstaller does (and breaks if you move your zope instance)


Isn't package_home() doing the same?


funny that you ask since I just noticed that CMFQuickInstaller imports 
the function then never uses it.


Bye

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Tel. +34 93 5883004  Fax +34 93 5883007
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Re: [Zope] Products have incorrect home attribute

2006-01-18 Thread Martijn Pieters
On 1/18/06, Luca Olivetti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I asked the same question a couple of days ago (see wrong directoy in
 Control_Panel.Products..home) and no, they aren't reset at zope
 restart, and deleting the pyc files doesn't help either.

Strange. If you are comfortable with the pdb debugger, you can debug
the code in OFS.Application.install_products by adding a 'import pdb;
pdb.set_trace()' before line 615 and see what get_products and
install_product do, focussing on the product_dir variable, and how it
eventually makes its way to the home property.

--
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Re: [Zope] five i18n

2006-01-18 Thread Jürgen Herrmann
does the zope/five/i18n machinery tell anything about it's startup
phase (finding message catalogs etc.) in the logs or while watching
runzope output? i don't see anything here, and still didn't get it to
work.

- what are the preconditions to get it working? i use plain zope page
templates (no cmf/plone or cps)...
- how can i set the target language for the translation in the zpt?
- my configure.zcml:
configure
  xmlns=http://namespaces.zope.org/zope;
  xmlns:i18n=http://namespaces.zope.org/i18n;
i18n:registerTranslations directory=locales /
/configure
  (must get parsed, because zope doesnt start up if i put some crap in :)
- my subdir layout under the product dir for message catalogs:
./locales/
./locales/de/LC_MESSAGES/blisspro.po
./locales/en/LC_MESSAGES/blisspro.po

- do i have to compile the .pos to .mos by hand? or is it done
automatically like PTS did?

must be missing something...

thanks in advance for your answers!
regards, juergen

On Tue, January 17, 2006 17:45, Lennart Regebro wrote:
 On 1/17/06, Jürgen Herrmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 hi all!

 does anybody have a five product that uses i18n that i can have a look
 at?
 i don't seem to get it right...

 Yeah, the CalZope trunk does it:
 http://svn.nuxeo.org/trac/pub/browser/CalZope/trunk/

 --
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 CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/
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Re: [Zope] five i18n

2006-01-18 Thread Lennart Regebro
On 1/18/06, Jürgen Herrmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 does the zope/five/i18n machinery tell anything about it's startup
 phase (finding message catalogs etc.) in the logs or while watching
 runzope output?

Nope. It would probably be good if the registerTranslations statement
printed logs of what it found.

 - how can i set the target language for the translation in the zpt?

That's tricky! :) You need either Localizer or the plone tool for that
now, I think. But it's mentioned in the documentation. By default it
just picks the language from the list of languages in your browser, I
think?

 - do i have to compile the .pos to .mos by hand?

Yes.

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Re: [Zope] five i18n

2006-01-18 Thread Jürgen Herrmann
On Wed, January 18, 2006 14:28, Lennart Regebro wrote:
 On 1/18/06, Jürgen Herrmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 does the zope/five/i18n machinery tell anything about it's startup
 phase (finding message catalogs etc.) in the logs or while watching
 runzope output?

 Nope. It would probably be good if the registerTranslations statement
 printed logs of what it found.

 - how can i set the target language for the translation in the zpt?

 That's tricky! :) You need either Localizer or the plone tool for that
 now, I think. But it's mentioned in the documentation. By default it
 just picks the language from the list of languages in your browser, I
 think?
ok, first one. will investigate that.

 - do i have to compile the .pos to .mos by hand?

 Yes.
second one. i'll report back :)

 --
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 CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/
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Re: [Zope] five i18n

2006-01-18 Thread Jürgen Herrmann
just tried this:

hacked in a MyLanguages in five's i18n.py:

class MyLanguages(object):
 fake 
implements(IUserPreferredLanguages)

def __init__(self, context):
self.context = context

def getPreferredLanguages(self):
return ('DE')

and in my overrides.zcml added:
adapter
for=zope.publisher.interfaces.http.IHTTPRequest
provides=zope.i18n.interfaces.IUserPreferredLanguages
factory=Products.Five.i18n.MyLanguages /

1. is the return value correct? i.e. is a tuple ok?
   should it be ('DE') or ('de') - tried both to no avail :(
2. does the translation also work with page template files?

regards, juergen

On Wed, January 18, 2006 14:28, Lennart Regebro wrote:
 On 1/18/06, Jürgen Herrmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 does the zope/five/i18n machinery tell anything about it's startup
 phase (finding message catalogs etc.) in the logs or while watching
 runzope output?

 Nope. It would probably be good if the registerTranslations statement
 printed logs of what it found.

 - how can i set the target language for the translation in the zpt?

 That's tricky! :) You need either Localizer or the plone tool for that
 now, I think. But it's mentioned in the documentation. By default it
 just picks the language from the list of languages in your browser, I
 think?

 - do i have to compile the .pos to .mos by hand?

 Yes.

 --
 Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/
 CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/
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Re: [Zope] five i18n (addendum)

2006-01-18 Thread Jürgen Herrmann
i added a print statement in registerTranslations()
and it shows me that it finds my message catalogs.

On Wed, January 18, 2006 15:27, Jürgen Herrmann wrote:
 just tried this:

 hacked in a MyLanguages in five's i18n.py:

 class MyLanguages(object):
  fake 
 implements(IUserPreferredLanguages)

 def __init__(self, context):
 self.context = context

 def getPreferredLanguages(self):
 return ('DE')

 and in my overrides.zcml added:
 adapter
 for=zope.publisher.interfaces.http.IHTTPRequest
 provides=zope.i18n.interfaces.IUserPreferredLanguages
 factory=Products.Five.i18n.MyLanguages /

 1. is the return value correct? i.e. is a tuple ok?
should it be ('DE') or ('de') - tried both to no avail :(
 2. does the translation also work with page template files?

 regards, juergen

 On Wed, January 18, 2006 14:28, Lennart Regebro wrote:
 On 1/18/06, Jürgen Herrmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 does the zope/five/i18n machinery tell anything about it's startup
 phase (finding message catalogs etc.) in the logs or while watching
 runzope output?

 Nope. It would probably be good if the registerTranslations statement
 printed logs of what it found.

 - how can i set the target language for the translation in the zpt?

 That's tricky! :) You need either Localizer or the plone tool for that
 now, I think. But it's mentioned in the documentation. By default it
 just picks the language from the list of languages in your browser, I
 think?

 - do i have to compile the .pos to .mos by hand?

 Yes.

 --
 Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/
 CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/
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Re: [Zope] five i18n

2006-01-18 Thread Lennart Regebro
On 1/18/06, Jürgen Herrmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 2. does the translation also work with page template files?

Yes. The work either when you use i18n.translate() from python, or
when you do i18n:something in ZPT.

--
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Re: [Zope] five i18n

2006-01-18 Thread Martijn Faassen

Lennart Regebro wrote:

On 1/18/06, Jürgen Herrmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



- how can i set the target language for the translation in the zpt?



That's tricky! :) You need either Localizer or the plone tool for that
now, I think. But it's mentioned in the documentation. By default it
just picks the language from the list of languages in your browser, I
think?



Yeah, it does. In Silva 1.5, under development, I've overridden an 
adapter that negotates the language to also consult a cookie 
('silva_language') and this appears to work.


Here's the code:

from zope.publisher.browser import BrowserLanguages

# new language extractor that looks in the silva_language cookie first,
# then fall back on browser setting
class SilvaLanguages(BrowserLanguages):
def getPreferredLanguages(self):
languages = super(
SilvaLanguages, self).getPreferredLanguages()
cookie_language = self.request.cookies.get('silva_language')
if cookie_language is not None:
languages = [cookie_language] + languages
return languages

and then some ZCML in overrides.zcml in the product:

  adapter
 for=zope.publisher.interfaces.http.IHTTPRequest
 provides=zope.i18n.interfaces.IUserPreferredLanguages
 factory=.adapters.languageprovider.SilvaLanguages
/

It's not perfect that this override is global now, but I guess 
eventually we could make it a local adapter override for the Silva site..


Regards,

Martijn
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Re: [Zope] five i18n

2006-01-18 Thread Martijn Faassen

Jürgen Herrmann wrote:

just tried this:

hacked in a MyLanguages in five's i18n.py:

class MyLanguages(object):
 fake 
implements(IUserPreferredLanguages)

def __init__(self, context):
self.context = context

def getPreferredLanguages(self):
return ('DE')

and in my overrides.zcml added:
adapter
for=zope.publisher.interfaces.http.IHTTPRequest
provides=zope.i18n.interfaces.IUserPreferredLanguages
factory=Products.Five.i18n.MyLanguages /


Oh, I see you already did what I did in the sample code above.

Regards,

Martijn

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[Zope] Newbee interfaces and implementations

2006-01-18 Thread Roman Klesel
Hello,

I'm in the process of learning to develop fs-zope-products.

The developers guide recommends to write interfaces and implement them in 
classes. Now my question:

When I have an interface:

DoThings

with several methods:

doThis()
doThat()
doThattoo()
...

and I have an implementation:

DoThingsClass

How will I then access the methods e.g. in a Template?

Through the interface:

tal:define=context/DoThings/doThis

or through the implemantation:

tal:define=context/DoThingsClass/doThis

I would think the first one should be the case. But then how does the interface 
know where the implementation of the
method is defined since it doesn't import the implementation?

I'm currently on Zope 2.84.

Please shed some light on me!

Greetings Roman



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Re: [Zope] Products have incorrect home attribute

2006-01-18 Thread Martijn Pieters
On 1/18/06, Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 huuh...never seen that...looks like a culprit...who actually uses that
 information? Isn't package_home() doing the same?

package_home serves a different use-case, I think; you use it within a
Product to determine paths to templates and such.

As for users of Product.home; QuickInstaller uses it, and the product
object itself uses it to find the README.txt file for the ZMI tab.

--
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Re: [Zope] five i18n

2006-01-18 Thread Jürgen Herrmann
me again :)

some more things i found out:
1. MyLanguages is instantiated on every http request but
regardless of what i return (['DE'] or ['de']) i always get the
english translation. weird?!

2. seems that only page templates served through an http request
trigger the i18n stuff at all. if so, how can i circumvent this?
(i want to generate xml and run it through trml2pdf to produce
pdf output, which works excellent - but not with i18n)

thanks for your help.
regards, juergen

On Wed, January 18, 2006 15:41, Martijn Faassen wrote:
 Jürgen Herrmann wrote:
 just tried this:

 hacked in a MyLanguages in five's i18n.py:

 class MyLanguages(object):
  fake 
 implements(IUserPreferredLanguages)

 def __init__(self, context):
 self.context = context

 def getPreferredLanguages(self):
 return ('DE')

 and in my overrides.zcml added:
 adapter
 for=zope.publisher.interfaces.http.IHTTPRequest
 provides=zope.i18n.interfaces.IUserPreferredLanguages
 factory=Products.Five.i18n.MyLanguages /

 Oh, I see you already did what I did in the sample code above.

 Regards,

 Martijn




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Re: [Zope] Newbee interfaces and implementations

2006-01-18 Thread bruno desthuilliers
Roman Klesel wrote:
 Hello,
 
 I'm in the process of learning to develop fs-zope-products.
 
 The developers guide recommends to write interfaces and implement them in 
 classes. Now my question:
 
 When I have an interface:
 
 DoThings
 
 with several methods:
 
 doThis()
 doThat()
 doThattoo()
 ...
 
 and I have an implementation:
 
 DoThingsClass
 
 How will I then access the methods e.g. in a Template?

myObject = DoThingsClass(any_args_here)
myObject.doThis()

 
 Through the interface:
 
 tal:define=context/DoThings/doThis

should be:
tal:define=some_name context/some_thing/some_attribute_or_method

 or through the implemantation:
 
 tal:define=context/DoThingsClass/doThis

Looks like you're newbie to OO too !-)

A class defines a type. You then need to have an instance of that type
(like, say, 42 is an instance of type integer and 'foo' is an instance
of type string).

(Interfaces (I mean, 'explicit' interfaces) defines an 'abstract' type,
that can be implemented by many classes. With Python's dynamic typing,
you don't *need* explicit interfaces - at least with Zope 2.x. AFAICT,
the recommandation to use explicit interfaces is mostly about Zope3
relying on them to implement some nice features).

So it would be:

tal:define=some_name context/myObject/doThis

As you see, you don't have to worry about interface at this level...

 I would think the first one should be the case. 

And you would be wrong.

 Please shed some light on me!
 

Hope that does...

-- 
bruno desthuilliers
développeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.modulix.com
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Re: [Zope] Newbee interfaces and implementations

2006-01-18 Thread Roman Klesel
bruno desthuilliers schrieb:
 Looks like you're newbie to OO too !-)
 
 A class defines a type. You then need to have an instance of that type
 (like, say, 42 is an instance of type integer and 'foo' is an instance
 of type string).
 

Yes, true! :-)

  (Interfaces (I mean, 'explicit' interfaces) defines an 'abstract' type,
 that can be implemented by many classes. With Python's dynamic typing,
 you don't *need* explicit interfaces - at least with Zope 2.x. AFAICT,
 the recommandation to use explicit interfaces is mostly about Zope3
 relying on them to implement some nice features).
 
 So it would be:
 
 tal:define=some_name context/myObject/doThis
 
 As you see, you don't have to worry about interface at this level...

So you recommend that I should just skip them as long as I'm on Zope2?

I would be happy with that. I find them confusing when they don't
really interface with but just document my methods.

Thanks

Roman


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[Zope] Re: Products have incorrect home attribute

2006-01-18 Thread George Lee
 I asked the same question a couple of days ago (see wrong directoy in 
 Control_Panel.Products..home) and no, they aren't reset at zope 
 restart, and deleting the pyc files doesn't help either.

Thanks, didn't see the previous conversation. =)

I'll do the delete the Products objects trick ... any idea why it fails to just
directly change the attribute with an external method? I'm not savvy to the
inner workings of ZODB so I don't know if there's read-only attributes or
persistence issues (with a string attribute though?) here...


Peace,
Geroge

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[Zope] [Fwd: Zope fails on large task?]

2006-01-18 Thread Jim Fulton


--
Jim Fulton   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   Python Powered!
CTO  (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org
Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com   http://www.zope.org
---BeginMessage---
I have a quite complicated data collection and reporting system based on
zope2.7 and postgresql.  All the postgresql stuff is handled by external
scripts.  I have used page templates throughout.  It is running on a
Debian Sarge based system, and uses Apache as a front end.  

 This is my first experience developing with Zope, so I have probably
done things oddly, but...

I have script that generates a large bundle of data dictionary for each
target entity, which is in this case is a person.  I then pass this
data to a script that converts it to XML.  My template repeats over a
list of people, and concatenates and sends the XML for them all to the
user, where a bit of XSLT creates a paged report. 

It works for a few people.  If I try too many people it fails with an
   Error reading from remote server
message from the Apache.

I cannot find any hints in the apache or zope logs.  I have tried to
monitor the server to see if any resources are running out, but have not
found anything. 


Can anyone suggest how I try to diagnose this failure. 

I repeat, I am fairly new to Zope, and so need fairly basic help.

Dave


---End Message---
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[Zope] Re: Newbee interfaces and implementations

2006-01-18 Thread George Lee
 So you recommend that I should just skip them as long as I'm on Zope2?
 
 I would be happy with that. I find them confusing when they don't
 really interface with but just document my methods.

Some of the reasons interfaces can be helpful are (1) for documentation purposes
and clarity for code if someone needs to look at it, (2) if other classes might
use the same interface, you help make sure you're sticking to a common interface
so that the methods in different classes do similar things, and (3) you can use
methods like isImplementedBy so that certain templates, code, etc. does
something with an object or class if it uses the interface -- what you call
really interfacing.

There's many examples of how (3) might work. It seems like for now that (3)
won't be important to you and (2) might be. Personally I define interfaces for
some classes (especially tools) to help with the documentation, but agree with
you that for other straightforward classes they don't help that much with
documetnation.

Hope this helps; peace,
George

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Re: [Zope] ANN: ZSyncer 0.7.1-beta1 released

2006-01-18 Thread Dieter Maurer
Paul Winkler wrote at 2006-1-17 15:52 -0500:
 ...
 An alternative would be a persistent subobject of the synchronized
 object (such that its modification does not modify the
 bobobase_modification_time of the primary object).

That's not good: unless i find a suitable core zope class to use,
if the user ever uninstalls ZSyncer, all of his objects are broken!

Maybe, a PersistantMapping?

in general, i don't like to pile more data onto the poor user's
unsuspecting objects. I have done it, i just don't like it :-)

Zope3 makes it a strategy (-- annotations),
CMF uses it a lot (-- WorkflowState, Discussability, ...)



-- 
Dieter
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Re: [Zope] Products have incorrect home attribute

2006-01-18 Thread Dieter Maurer
Martijn Pieters wrote at 2006-1-18 08:19 +0100:
 ...
It should be perfectly safe to delete the Products from your Control
Panel Products folder and restart Zope to have them recreated though.
If you don't trust this procedure, back up the ZODB, but from my
reading this should happen every time you start Zope anyway.

Please don't: it would make running from a read only storage
much more difficult

Up to now only a few products (such as Formulator) try to
write into the ZODB on any startup. I would not like to see
all products doing that.


-- 
Dieter
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Re: [Zope] Newbee interfaces and implementations

2006-01-18 Thread bruno modulix

Roman Klesel a écrit :

bruno desthuilliers schrieb:


Looks like you're newbie to OO too !-)

A class defines a type. You then need to have an instance of that type
(like, say, 42 is an instance of type integer and 'foo' is an instance
of type string).




Yes, true! :-)


!-)


  (Interfaces (I mean, 'explicit' interfaces) defines an 'abstract' type,


that can be implemented by many classes. With Python's dynamic typing,
you don't *need* explicit interfaces - at least with Zope 2.x. AFAICT,
the recommandation to use explicit interfaces is mostly about Zope3
relying on them to implement some nice features).

So it would be:

tal:define=some_name context/myObject/doThis

As you see, you don't have to worry about interface at this level...



So you recommend that I should just skip them as long as I'm on Zope2?


Short answer :  yes. Unless you plan to switch to Zope3 really soon, but 
then, I'd recommand that you skip Zope 2.x !-)



I would be happy with that. I find them confusing when they don't
really interface with but just document my methods.


The Interface package offers much more than simple documentation. But I 
don't think you will find much Zope 2.x code using it.


My 2 cents
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Re: [Zope] Products have incorrect home attribute

2006-01-18 Thread Martijn Pieters
On 1/18/06, Dieter Maurer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 If you don't trust this procedure, back up the ZODB, but from my
 reading this should happen every time you start Zope anyway.

 Please don't: it would make running from a read only storage
 much more difficult

Indeed. Had I the time, I certainly would be diving deeper into this;
a quick scan of the code doesn't quite build the required
understanding, especially when you take read-only situations into
account.

--
Martijn Pieters
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[Zope] zeopack: No handlers could be found for logger ZEO.zrpc

2006-01-18 Thread Cameron Beattie

When I run the following:
python /usr/lib/zope/bin/zeopack.py -d 20 -h localhost -p 8100

I get an error:
No handlers could be found for logger ZEO.zrpc

I have searched around and found a similar message at 
http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-dev/2005-December/026097.html (relating 
to zeoup.py) but I didn't understand what needs to be done to remedy the 
problem.


In the case of zeopack, the database is not packed i.e. the script doesn't 
work.


I am running Zope 2.8.2 with python 2.4.1.

Any help would be appreciated.

Regards

Cameron 


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Re: [Zope-DB] dealing with dropped database connections

2006-01-18 Thread Charlie Clark

martin f krafft wrote:

Hi,

a client of mine complains about dropped database connections
(SybaseDA), which wreak havoc. For instance, if the network goes
down for a while, the DA is left in an irrecoverable state.

Short of a regular wget to the manage interface to restart the DA,
what can be done? Is this something about SybaseDA (which is no
longer maintained), or a common problem?

What would you advise, short of hunting down the problem and fixing
it?


This problem is common to all ZopeDA's connected to network data 
sources.  You might want to try using our mxODBCZopeDA with the option 
Connect on demand which often helps in these situations. However, a 
lot depends on how your data source and driver are configured as the 
stale connection is often serialised even though it has been lost.


Charlie
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[Zope-DB] mxODBC Zope DB2 adapter - how to specify the current schema?

2006-01-18 Thread Gergana Silvanova
Dear all,I'm using Zope with IBM DB2... the adapter which I use is mxODBC DA from eGenix... in the database connection string, I can specify DSN, UID, PWD and adapter-specific stuffdoes someone know if there is a way to specify the current schema? I looked in the documentation, but did not find it.Until now I was using the Zope DBDA adapter from BlueDynamics, and I easily could specify the schema, together with the database, username and password, in the database connection.Thanks in advance for the help,Gergana Silvanova
	
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