[Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Sascha Welter wrote: If the new stuff is so great and easy to use, it should also be easy to put some documentation of it in Hear, hear. +1 insightful. ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Jim Fulton wrote: I wish they were gone, but they are still there. Someday, I'd like to se a TALES-based DTML, but I doubt I'll ever have time to do it. You know that means you want to deprecate it really ;-) I still maintaining ofrcing users to learn two templating languages, one of which is one of the oldest things in the whole framework, is pretty cruel, but then we as a community, do seem to like inflicting new languages on our end users *grinz* Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Dieter Maurer wrote: Lennart Regebro wrote at 2005-4-5 11:48 +0200: On the Paris sprint, one thing that was noted was how ironic it was that the release of 2.8, which includes support for the new recommended development paradigm, was held up becuase we neeeded to support an old non-recommended one. :-) ZClasses feature prominently in the Zope book. That should probably be fixed. Seems they are more recommended than the new development paradigm (which does not yet feature at all in the Zope book). The new developement paradigm is featured prominantly in 2 new books. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Lennart Regebro wrote: On the Paris sprint, one thing that was noted was how ironic it was that the release of 2.8, which includes support for the new recommended development paradigm, was held up becuase we neeeded to support an old non-recommended one. :-) It boils down to backward compatibility. Backward compatibility is important. People aren't going to use our platform if it keeps changing. in backward incompatible ways without reletively smooth transition tools. We can't simply drop such a critical feature just because we don't want to maintain it. Heck, I'd love to drop version support from ZODB, but I'm not going to until I can offer a replacement to the people who depend on versions today. Anyway, my main question is: You who are using ZClasses, can't you just stay on Zope2.8 or 2.9, if Zope 2.10 would not contain ZClass support? The main features of 2.8 is support for the component architecture, For many people, the main features of 2.8 are multi-version concurrency control and better garbage collection. and for zope 2.9 and 2.10 this will be even more true: there will most likely be very few new features besides this. I wouldn't assume that. People continue to do interesting things on this platform. In any case, if we put people in the place where they couldn't (in a practical, rather than theoretical sense) migrate from a particular version, then we'd have to consider maintaining that version longer that we otherwise would, if only to give people bug fixes (especially security fixes). With 2.9 or 2.10 the idea is that you can use both ZClasses, *and* write products that work under Zope3. I'm not even sure there will be a 2.10, and in any case you won't really have much need of it. I'd be very surprised if there was not a Zope 2.10, or even a Zope 2.11. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Andreas Jung wrote: --On Dienstag, 5. April 2005 16:38 Uhr -0400 Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And that is probably the best arguement for keeping them around longer. We should get to the point: if some people depend on ZClasses then they should take over some responsibility in maintaining them in future releases. Be careful here. While there is value in deciding priorities based on willingness of people to help. We want people to use Zope *even* if they can't maintain it. It would be a huge mistake to gibe people the impression that they should only use Zope if they are prepared to maintain it themselves. In other words, the availability of volunteers is a good criteria for selecting *new* features. It can not be that a feature regarded as obsolete (from the majority) and almost unmaintained and untouched since ages holds up further releases. It is being maintained now. I don't think we can choose not to maintain such an important feature. I agree that new features should only be done of there are developers willing to do them. I agree with Jim that they should be officially deprecated - means they could be removed in Zope 2.10. Whoa, I'm not advocating that. I was asking if anyone cared. I strongly suspected that there would be people who did care. I've gotten a lot of grief because of the effort I've been putting into getting them to work with Zope 2.8 and the effect that that has had on the 2.8 schedule. Many active Zope developers are (understandbly) dismissive of ZClasses, but I think we can't ignore the many people who depend on them. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Ausum Studio wrote: ... As for ZC, IMHO the issue should be treated as a matter of understanding the market rather than achieving a milestone. You created stuff that works in some way or another that people embraced. You also changed your company name to the name of the product of yours that people embraced. And no matter how much hype there is on new trends, you should realize that a song is just a song until the market say it's a hit, and that X3 is that song. Shall you start to put Zope2 into pieces before getting to know you already have a hit? :) Well said. I couldn't agree more. That's why ZC continues to spend lots of time maintaining and enhancing Zope 2. It's why I see many Zope 2 releases ahead and why, every time I speak to large groups of people, I tell people not to feel a need to rush to Zope 3. There is absolutely no intention to make the mistakes of other projects to have an untested new version replace an established new version prematurely. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Jonathan Cyr wrote: Yoohoo, ZClasses are not an expert technology to use, they are an introduction to Zope... Just because I use a thing, doesn't mean I can support/maintain a thing. Exactly. I want you to use Zope even if you aren't in a position to maintain it yourself. I can read the list, and try to help folks with questions that I've experienced... that's the support that can be offered at my skill level. Which is extremely valuable. If that's not enough... fine... drop ZClasses, then DTML (you know, its next)... and all the folks in this boat with me. (There are no plans to deprecate DTML. It is even supported in Zope 3.) ZC should decide whether the benefits of ZClasses for low-end developers match against the hurdles to keeping it with the newer Zope releases. If they don't see a need for this skill-level type of tool in Zope's feature list, they will pay down the road... Growth is king, even for Zope, who grew this platform? Growth means newbies, right? What elements got Zope to where it is? Could ZClasses be on that list? Why? Vey well said. I think this is, but should not be underestimated. This is something I think about a lot. I think Zope needs to support developers and non developers. Zope 2 was weak in supporting developers. Over the years, new techniques and technologies have evolved to make Zope development better for proffessional developers, but we still need the non-developers. And seeing comments like... - Move to Zope Python Products - you cant see the skill differences between OOP Zope's API vs. ZClasses - Use the Archetypes/CMF/Plone setup - UML training? the CMF API and Plone underpinnings, easy? - Maintain it yourself then - Update very slick code within Zope's flexible and aging API, with ZODB API too? Maintain it...Yeah sure, hows this afternoon. ... just show me how under-represented that beginner and intermediate Zope developers use this list... and then I think, perhaps there aren't any, just me and a few others... and if that's the case, Zope's screwed, and the horse I rode in on. :) This list is for you. While you shouldn't have to maintain Zope yourself, you *do* need to be vocal about what you want. (Of course, at some point, work needs to get paid for. If someone wants a new feature that the developers don't want to develop out of the goodness of their hearts or even an old feature that no one wants to maintain, someone may have to be willing to fund some development. I'm not asking for this in this case.) And so here's the confession... Hello, I'm Jon... I've used Zope for 2 years, and I can't help others program high-level Python OOP tools/platform resources in a propriety web content management server. I only can support their efforts when the occasional mailing list opportunities present themselves. And that support is greatly appreciated! Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Jim Fulton said: (There are no plans to deprecate DTML. It is even supported in Zope 3.) That is the best news I have heard all day (although, it is early). Jake -- Zoping for the rest of us http://www.ZopeZone.com ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Jake wrote: Jim Fulton said: (There are no plans to deprecate DTML. It is even supported in Zope 3.) That is the best news I have heard all day (although, it is early). I will be selling black flags for the mourning of a missed opportunity... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Jim Fulton wrote: I've gotten a lot of grief because of the effort I've been putting into getting them to work with Zope 2.8 and the effect that that has had on the 2.8 schedule. Many active Zope developers are (understandbly) dismissive of ZClasses, but I think we can't ignore the many people who depend on them. I think this course of action leads to misinforming new users that ZClasses are a good thing. If ZClasses really must stay around, then put them in a big box labelled some people like these, but the community as a whole recommends against them, which seems to be the consensus here. I think ZPT and python scripts are much more useful tools for newbies who will often enter with a scripting rather than OO frame of mind. cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Chris Withers wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: I think ZPT and python scripts are much more useful tools for newbies who will often enter with a scripting rather than OO frame of mind. Wouldn't that be ZPT and adapters ;-) -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Hi Chris, Chris Withers wrote: (There are no plans to deprecate DTML. It is even supported in Zope 3.) That is the best news I have heard all day (although, it is early). I will be selling black flags for the mourning of a missed opportunity... With or without a circled A? ;-) -- Regards, PhilK Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] / Voicemail Facsimile: 07092 070518 it's very hard to talk quantum using a language originally designed to tell other monkeys where the ripe fruit is - Lu-Tze ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jake wrote: Jim Fulton said: (There are no plans to deprecate DTML. It is even supported in Zope 3.) That is the best news I have heard all day (although, it is early). I will be selling black flags for the mourning of a missed opportunity... DTML is very nice for some things. And for beginners. Only the magic namespaces of DTML are bad, and those are gone in Zope 3. Florent -- Florent Guillaume, Nuxeo (Paris, France) CTO, Director of RD +33 1 40 33 71 59 http://nuxeo.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Florent Guillaume wrote: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jake wrote: Jim Fulton said: (There are no plans to deprecate DTML. It is even supported in Zope 3.) That is the best news I have heard all day (although, it is early). I will be selling black flags for the mourning of a missed opportunity... DTML is very nice for some things. And for beginners. Only the magic namespaces of DTML are bad, and those are gone in Zope 3. I wish they were gone, but they are still there. Someday, I'd like to se a TALES-based DTML, but I doubt I'll ever have time to do it. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Chris Withers wrote at 2005-4-7 13:22 +0100: ... but the community as a whole recommends against them, which seems to be the consensus here. A funny definition of consensus... It may be the majority opinion but it definitely is not consensus... -- Dieter ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Jim Fulton wrote at 2005-4-7 05:50 -0400: Dieter Maurer wrote: ... ZClasses feature prominently in the Zope book. That should probably be fixed. Seems they are more recommended than the new development paradigm (which does not yet feature at all in the Zope book). The new developement paradigm is featured prominantly in 2 new books. When will they feature in *the* Zope Book? There are Zope beginners that will not start with a Zope3 book -- at least not yet. -- Dieter ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jens Vagelpohl wrote: On Apr 6, 2005, at 6:59, Andreas Jung wrote: --On Dienstag, 5. April 2005 16:38 Uhr -0400 Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And that is probably the best arguement for keeping them around longer. We should get to the point: if some people depend on ZClasses then they should take over some responsibility in maintaining them in future releases. It can not be that a feature regarded as obsolete (from the majority) and almost unmaintained and untouched since ages holds up further releases. Amen. Actually, instead of maintaining them in the core the current users should immediately look at breaking it out of the core into a separate product, as suggested earlier, and maintain that product. I believe that would make it simpler both from a Zope maintainer perspective as well as from the ZClass maintainers' perspective. Perhaps once Jim's current work lands, that might be possible. As it is, most of the work to make ZClasses function in Zope 2.8 has been at the ZODB level (I think); I doubt that anyone (except Dieter!) plans to dive from the frying pan of ZClass implementation into the fire of ZODB code any time soon. Tres. - -- === Tres Seaver[EMAIL PROTECTED] Zope Corporation Zope Dealers http://www.zope.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCU+hUGqWXf00rNCgRAup2AJ9myFbD3V2bjtrHRZPJMcwc9zN2cgCeMiet D/BUc+yQN82oY1MiaTBdr4U= =zSDn -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Tres Seaver wrote at 2005-4-6 09:47 -0400: ... Perhaps once Jim's current work lands, that might be possible. As it is, most of the work to make ZClasses function in Zope 2.8 has been at the ZODB level (I think); I doubt that anyone (except Dieter!) plans to dive from the frying pan of ZClass implementation into the fire of ZODB code any time soon. And me, too, I am *VERY* happy that Jim proposed to make ZClasses work again with the new ExtensionClass'es (and does not abandon ZClasses right now). -- Dieter ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Jim Fulton wrote: We could choose to deprecate ZClasses. If we deprecated them in Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but their support would be removed in Zope 2.10. Would anyone be upset if this happened? They are evil, they are bad. They lead newcommers down a blind road. Please do drop them. Besides, I think that most people are starting up on Zope using a cms like Plone, and in there I believe they go straight for archetypes. -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Jake wrote: My vote is to keep them around for 2.8 and 2.9 but say goodbye after that. Again.. it won't be easy for us, but who said progress ever was. +1 for dropping ZClasses as soon as possible (IMHO 2.10 is a good target), but before that, some comment in REALLY BIG LETTERS should be made in the ZopeBook: Don't use ZClasses, because you'll get into real trouble when using them, deprecated or not ;) Many Zope-startes read the ZopeBook and start over and over again with ZClasses. So we should start to deprecate ZClasses in the ZopeBook anyway. http://www.plope.com/Books/2_7Edition/CustomZopeObjects.stx Cheers, Maik ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
FYI, there's a kind of overview of possible ZClass alternatives at http://zopewiki.org/HowToAddCustomContentTypes . ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
