Re: [Zope] linuxworld article

2000-07-18 Thread Bill Anderson

Chris Withers wrote:
 
 Graham Chiu wrote:
  The author creates a straw man ( a shoe shop built upon a shoe object )
  without mentioning that Zope users can use a relational database instead
  to build their store.
 
 I think that's a Zope Documentation problem ;-)


Not when you can see that in plain english from no more than two clicks
off of Zope's homepage. The level of difficulty or the complexity to do
it is irrelevant, since that wasn't the issue.  The author's gripe (in
this case) was that Zope is sooo OOP, and that Zope docs don't explain
OO concepts to users. The fact that Zope can talk to RDMSes was
conveniently left out, and the fact that you can do so is not hidden in
any way on zope.org. It is right there in plain sight, two clicks from
the main page. How can that be a Zope Documentation Problem (ZDP?,
oops,that's taken ;-) )

Bill

--
Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are easy to annoy,
and have the root password.

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Re: [Zope] linuxworld article

2000-07-17 Thread Graham Chiu

In article [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Firestar [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-07/lw-07-penguin_2.html

Hmm...what is your opinion on the article above? I'm interested to see the
author's comparison btwn Enhydra and Zope.

The author creates a straw man ( a shoe shop built upon a shoe object )
without mentioning that Zope users can use a relational database instead
to build their store.

And he is not aware of the way that many here use editors with FTP
capabilities to interact with Zope. ( though FTP doesn't work in many
situations ).

Far from being torture "Expecting someone to code in a browser text box
is considered a human-rights violation in most civilized nations" the
small text browser box encourages code to be factored.

-- 
Regards,  Graham Chiu
gchiuatcompkarori.co.nz
http://www.compkarori.co.nz/index.php
Powered by Interbase and Zope

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RE: [Zope] linuxworld article

2000-07-17 Thread Gijs Reulen

 Well Gijs, you've got some points right in what you're saying BUT...
 If you know some HTML and Stylesheets why don't you revamp the
 interface yourself. I have.

I was not talking of myself. I do not care much anymore for the visual
aspect of the interface. However, for new users it could be disappointed.
The interface does not look slick and does not offer interesting looking
wizards that invite to click on. I think it should ! The first acquaintance
with Zope should be a joy ! A new world opening up, a world where everything
seems to be possible !  ;-)
Maybe a bit commercial thinking, but hey, thats what made Microsoft and
Oracle big. Not by delivering but simply by promising... At least Zope
delivers, so what we need is showing the world it does.

I also think that interfacing with stuff like Dreamweaver is very important.
People use that a lot and therefore are familiar with it. Zope would then be
just another back-end like Lasso (the normal Dreamweaver database connection
stuff).

Maybe when installing Zope, it should offer to automatically set up
connections for databases ? Something like: which database do have ? Select
one of more [odbc, Oracle, mySQL, etc. ]. I think this kind of end-user
thinking is what Open Source really lacks compared to commercial software.

Yes, I know, all this is easy to think of but it also has to be realised
-( Unfortunately thats where my personal abilities are lacking...

Gijs Reulen


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Re: [Zope] linuxworld article

2000-07-17 Thread Chris Withers

Gijs Reulen wrote:
 I also think that interfacing with stuff like Dreamweaver is very important.

Totally agree...

What about Dreamweaver UltraDev? It has support for Coldfusion and
various other similar offerings but not Zope. I'd say that's pretty
important to sort out...

That said, Zoep Studio may be very promising :-)

 I think this kind of end-user
 thinking is what Open Source really lacks compared to commercial software.

Again, too true :(

Chris

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Re: [Zope] linuxworld article

2000-07-17 Thread Chris Withers

Graham Chiu wrote:
 The author creates a straw man ( a shoe shop built upon a shoe object )
 without mentioning that Zope users can use a relational database instead
 to build their store.

I think that's a Zope Documentation problem ;-)

 And he is not aware of the way that many here use editors with FTP
 capabilities to interact with Zope. ( though FTP doesn't work in many
 situations ).

FTP support is not good enough to use for total site development.
It's also not at a high enough level for content managers as I'm
currently finding.


 Far from being torture "Expecting someone to code in a browser text box
 is considered a human-rights violation in most civilized nations" the
 small text browser box encourages code to be factored.

Sorry, that's simply not true ;-)

Text boxes are pathetic for editing. Find and replace?

That said, DTML is probably more of a human rights violation right
now...

I think Zope Studio will address a lot of the aboev problems, but I
can't help feeling a pluggin type thing for Dreamweaver would be of
great benefit too :-)

From the content managers point of view I think it's all about
consistency of interface and ease of use... the two reasons I still use
WinNT on my desktop instead of LINUX ;-)

cheers,

Chris

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Re: [Zope] linuxworld article

2000-07-17 Thread George Donnelly

as a newbie i am kind of glad that there are no slick interfaces. i want to
learn. i dont need to be coddled. :-)

is it important for zope to be "big" like MS and oracle? [lets think about
that for a second; do you really want to say that zope should be like MS or
MS products? yeah MS has some good points, but ...] or high-quality, open,
"home-grown", *real* ...?

i thought oss was supposed to be different ... ? :-/

Regards,
GEORGE DONNELLY
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://cyklotron.com/
The longer I live the more beautiful life becomes. --Frank Lloyd Wright

... However, for new users it could be disappointed.
 The interface does not look slick and does not offer interesting looking
 wizards that invite to click on. I think it should ! The first acquaintance
 with Zope should be a joy ! A new world opening up, a world where everything
 seems to be possible !  ;-)
 Maybe a bit commercial thinking, but hey, thats what made Microsoft and
 Oracle big. Not by delivering but simply by promising... At least Zope
 delivers, so what we need is showing the world it does.


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Re: [Zope] linuxworld article

2000-07-17 Thread Chris Withers

George Donnelly wrote:
 i thought oss was supposed to be different ... ? :-/

Yes, but that doesn't mean it should be a pain in the ass to use and
learn ;-)

cheers,

Chris

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[Zope] linuxworld article

2000-07-16 Thread Firestar

http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-07/lw-07-penguin_2.html

Hmm...what is your opinion on the article above? I'm interested to see the
author's comparison btwn Enhydra and Zope.

regards,
firestar


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[Zope] FW: [Zope] linuxworld article

2000-07-16 Thread George Donnelly

this is a smear and a cowardly one. one small complaint about the default
dtml methods produced when creating a zclass does not an intelligent
criticism make!

zope is not perfect  but he failed to describe any serious problems. imo


Regards,
GEORGE DONNELLY
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://cyklotron.com/
The truly and deliberately evil men are a very small minority; it is the
appeaser who unleashes them on mankind; it is the appeaser`s intellectual
abdication that invites them to take over. --Ayn Rand


 http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-07/lw-07-penguin_2.html
 
 Hmm...what is your opinion on the article above? I'm interested to see the
 author's comparison btwn Enhydra and Zope.
 
 regards,
 firestar


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RE: [Zope] linuxworld article

2000-07-16 Thread Gijs Reulen

Hi

I think the author is right about the interface of Zope. Take a look at what
Enhydra has to offer:
http://www.enhydra.org/software/ScreenShots.html
What the author especially is missing in Zope is something line Enhydra DODS
(Data Object Design Studio), an grafical interactive way to combine objects
and relational data. And 'coming soon' an interactive app-builder...
Zope Studio depends on Mozilla, but how long will that all take to complete
?

Besides laking a slick interface, Zope is missing the real interactivity
Enhydra can offer; Java apps on the server and on the client can communicate
directly and therefore make a lot more visually possible in terms of
administration, debugging, etc.

A solution ?

Has anyone at Digital Creations yet taken a look at Beehive's MetaPublisher
? I think that is the way to go for the short term (Studio being long term)
! Nice looking browser interface, combining data and databases, wizards,
etc.

Python and Zope has momentum NOW, but if we fail to deliver at least some of
the features other platforms have (and the number will increase; for example
with Borland Delphi comming to Linux, so will WebHUB, a webplatform for
Delphi !) new users will be disappointed and go somewhere else.
Zope deserves better then being a temporary hype :-(

 http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-07/lw-07-penguin_2.html

 Hmm...what is your opinion on the article above? I'm interested to see the
 author's comparison btwn Enhydra and Zope.

 regards,
 firestar


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[Zope] SV: [Zope] linuxworld article

2000-07-16 Thread peter be

Well Gijs, you've got some points right in what you're saying BUT...
If you know some HTML and Stylesheets why don't you revamp the interface yourself. I 
have.
Look for dtml files in your Zope root. When you open them you'll see that it's good 
old HTML.

I, for example, have a small monitor and not much space for long lists of objects, so 
I changed that in one single line of HTML. Neither did I like the boring white 
background. 
Change: body to body bgcolor="color"

I used to think that Linux was ugly and Windows was nicer. Then I realized that if I 
spend a couple of mins on customizing Enlightment or KDE, I can have it exaclty the 
way I want it. Even better than Windows!

Isn't Open Source software cute?

- Original Message - 
From: Gijs Reulen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Mailinglist Zope [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 2:27 PM
Subject: RE: [Zope] linuxworld article


 Hi
 
 I think the author is right about the interface of Zope. Take a look at what
 Enhydra has to offer:
 http://www.enhydra.org/software/ScreenShots.html
 What the author especially is missing in Zope is something line Enhydra DODS
 (Data Object Design Studio), an grafical interactive way to combine objects
 and relational data. And 'coming soon' an interactive app-builder...
 Zope Studio depends on Mozilla, but how long will that all take to complete
 ?
 
 Besides laking a slick interface, Zope is missing the real interactivity
 Enhydra can offer; Java apps on the server and on the client can communicate
 directly and therefore make a lot more visually possible in terms of
 administration, debugging, etc.
 
 A solution ?
 
 Has anyone at Digital Creations yet taken a look at Beehive's MetaPublisher
 ? I think that is the way to go for the short term (Studio being long term)
 ! Nice looking browser interface, combining data and databases, wizards,
 etc.
 
 Python and Zope has momentum NOW, but if we fail to deliver at least some of
 the features other platforms have (and the number will increase; for example
 with Borland Delphi comming to Linux, so will WebHUB, a webplatform for
 Delphi !) new users will be disappointed and go somewhere else.
 Zope deserves better then being a temporary hype :-(
 
  http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-07/lw-07-penguin_2.html
 
  Hmm...what is your opinion on the article above? I'm interested to see the
  author's comparison btwn Enhydra and Zope.
 
  regards,
  firestar
 
 
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  Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup
 
 
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[Zope] linuxworld article and auto-form generation

2000-07-16 Thread Kapil Thangavelu

I played around with some auto-form generating ZClasses a couple months
ago. Just thought i should share since it seems to be something people
want, and i saw it used as a feature-lack against zope on linuxworld.
basically it just spits out an html page where you pick a property sheet
and then it spits up an edit form for that sheet. i use em for quick
testing of a zclass and as a template(ala view source) for more
customized forms.

i generally use it a base zclass on a project and just make my other
zclasses inherit from it. to view the forms after you've created the
methods (in your the Products folder of your ZClass) just go to
http://YourZopeSite.zope/YouObject/edit_properties


this stuff will be on my members page, soon:)
http://www.zope.org/Members/k_vertigo

standard_disclaimer -ie it works for me. use at your own risk.

raw dtml - sorry i'm sure the formatting blows

edit_properties :: dtml_method

dtml-var standard_html_header
centerbPlease Pick A Property Category/b/center
table align="center"
form action="edit_propertyCategory" method="POST"
trtd
SELECT name="PropertyCategory"
dtml-in "propertysheets.items()"
OPTION value="dtml-var sequence-key"dtml-var
sequence-key/OPTION
/dtml-in
/SELECT
/tr/td
trtdINPUT TYPE="SUBMIT" value="Edit Properties"/td/tr
/form
/table
dtml-var standard_html_footer

edit_propertyCategory :: dtml_method

dtml-var standard_html_header


dtml-if "REQUEST.has_key('PropertyCategory')"

dtml-in "propertysheets.items()"
dtml-let y=sequence-key

dtml-if "REQUEST.PropertyCategory==y"
dtml-let x=sequence-item

table border="1" align="center" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="4"
trth colspan="2" align="center"Edit dtml-var y
Properties/th/tr

form action="edit_propertiesChange" method="POST"
dtml-in "x.propertyItems()"
trtd
dtml-var sequence-key
/tdtd
input type="text" name="dtml-var sequence-key" value="dtml-var
sequence-item"
/td/tr
/dtml-in

trtd colspan="2" align="center"input type="SUBMIT" value="Change
Properties"/td/tr
input type=hidden name="PropertyCategory" value="dtml-var
PropertyCategory"
/form
/table
/dtml-let
/dtml-if

/dtml-let
/dtml-in

dtml-else
You have reached this page in error
/dtml-if

dtml-var standard_html_footer


edit_propertiesChange :: dtml_method

dtml-var standard_html_header

dtml-if "REQUEST.has_key('PropertyCategory')"

dtml-in "propertysheets.items()"
dtml-let y=sequence-key

dtml-if "REQUEST.PropertyCategory==y"
dtml-let x=sequence-item
dtml-call "x.manage_changeProperties(REQUEST)"
dtml-var PropertyCategory Properties Changedbr
a href="dtml-var URL1"Back To Object/abr
a href="dtml-var URL2"Back To Container/a
/dtml-let
/dtml-if

/dtml-let
/dtml-in

dtml-else
You have reached this page in error
/dtml-if

dtml-var standard_html_footer


Cheers

Kapil
http://lostworld.imeme.net

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