Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!

2006-01-16 Thread Nicolas Georgakopoulos

Rakotomandimby Mihamina wrote:

On Mon, 2006-01-09 at 14:29 +0100, Garito wrote:
  

I thing DTML and ZClasses will disapear someday



You think, I hope :-)

  

I beg ;-)  .
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Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!

2006-01-16 Thread garry

Nicolas Georgakopoulos wrote:


Rakotomandimby Mihamina wrote:


On Mon, 2006-01-09 at 14:29 +0100, Garito wrote:
 


I thing DTML and ZClasses will disapear someday




You think, I hope :-)

  


I beg ;-)  .
___


Can someone explain why there is a continual battle between those who 
like dtml and those who like zpt?
Surely the two can co-exist and then individual developers can choose 
which most suits them. Neither seems to be broken and both provide a 
valid experience for users, so let's be tolerant. :-)

regards
Garry

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Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!

2006-01-16 Thread Greg Fischer
I took part in an old thread from here from several months ago:http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/zope/users/184052?do=post_view_threaded
In there, some of the prominent members from this list came up with some great points on the DTML vs ZPT thing. All great stuff. However, I agree with you. While some of the ZPT fans say that DTML is broke and it sucks, and from there perspective it might, for some of us DTML is great and we have no desire to use ZPT. For us, DTML is not broke.
I like what you said, be tolerant. Some of us don't see the limitations of DTML as something that is broken, or that it is not good. I don't think there is anything wrong with ZPT either, I simply don't have a use for it. Coexist? Yes, I hope they always do.
Personally, I am doing more and more with PHP. There are multiple reasons for that, but partly it is due to a conception in the Zope community that DTML is bad, and as such, it might go away. The *hype* is all about ZPT, not DTML. I don't want to pursue a development platform that is a foundation of my applications on something that is going away, or even hinting to it. That might not be the case, might be totally false. But we cant deny the fact that if there is no hype, then there is no attention to it, and less people will use it and even less will support it.
Now don't get me wrong about that last paragraph, I LOVE ZOPE! It just does things so easily that other environments have to struggle with. (Acquisition being one of them. Which also is something that people say is broke in some ways. It does do weird things sometimes. But if you know how to deal with them... ;)
I hope my opinions are of help to others. (just remember, these are just my opinions, to those to might be ready to slam me for them. I intend no offense.)GregOn 1/16/06, 
garry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Nicolas Georgakopoulos wrote: Rakotomandimby Mihamina wrote: On Mon, 2006-01-09 at 14:29 +0100, Garito wrote: I thing DTML and ZClasses will disapear someday
 You think, I hope :-) I beg ;-). ___Can someone explain why there is a continual battle between those who
like dtml and those who like zpt?Surely the two can co-exist and then individual developers can choosewhich most suits them. Neither seems to be broken and both provide avalid experience for users, so let's be tolerant. :-)
regardsGarry___Zope maillist-Zope@zope.orghttp://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
** No cross posts or HTML encoding!**(Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce 
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )-- Greg Fischer1st Byte Solutionshttp://www.1stbyte.com
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Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!

2006-01-16 Thread Tino Wildenhain
Greg Fischer schrieb:
...
 I like what you said, be tolerant.  Some of us don't see the limitations
 of DTML as something that is broken, or that it is not good.  I don't

I see we have to improve teaching.

 think there is anything wrong with ZPT either, I simply don't have a use
 for it.  Coexist? Yes, I hope they always do.
 
 Personally, I am doing more and more with PHP.  There are multiple
 reasons for that, but partly it is due to a conception in the Zope
 community that DTML is bad, and as such, it might go away. The *hype* is
 all about ZPT, not DTML.  I don't want to pursue a development platform

You can have PT with PHP too. Thats the cool part about it. Its really
kinda standard. You have PT for Zope, PHP, Perl, Java, ...

 that is a foundation of my applications on something that is going away,
 or even hinting to it.  That might not be the case, might be totally
 false.  But we cant deny the fact that if there is no hype, then there
 is no attention to it, and less people will use it and even less will
 support it.

I dont think thats the problem. I saw even weirder frameworks
to work with. I guess we could introduce an even suckier template
language and people would fall in love with it.

BTW: ZPT is not, and was never a replacement for DTML.
DTML would be replaced by application logic in python
or python scripts and ZPT together.

No matter if DTML is still there (and it will) we should
find better ways to teach people how to easy develope in
Zope.

++Tino
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Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!

2006-01-16 Thread Greg Fischer
>From Tino: --No matter if DTML is still there (and it will) we shouldfind better ways to teach people how to easy develope inZope.--Yes, you are right on all you mention. I didn't know PT was available in other environments/languages. Interesting. However, I still don't want to use them. Doesn't mean that someday I wont find a need and desire for it though. 
The reason I don't use PT is because I can do what I want without it. You mention that better ways to teach is needed, and you are right about that, but when someone like me has no desire to learn it, then it wont help. Worth noting though, I have looked at it briefly, and it confused the hell out of me. So, you may be right on anyway, because if it were explained in a such a way that caused me to just *get it*, then maybe I would go that route. 
I guess it's really a matter of, do I want to spend the time to learn something when I am loaded with other things to learn all the time, and why fix it if it isnt broke? (broke from my perspective ,that is.)
Well, why can't there also be good training on DTML as well? (actually, I don't thinks it's all that bad anyway.) And, like Gary asked, why can't there be a peaceful coexistence bewteen the ZPT and DTML fans? The reason why I ask? Because there is commonley someone saying *DTML sucks, use PT* when users ask questions about DTML. (maybe not in those words, but you get the idea.) 
I don't know. I do appreciate your responses and thoughts Tino. (as you have always done for me in the past)GregOn 1/16/06, Tino Wildenhain
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Greg Fischer schrieb:
... I like what you said, be tolerant.Some of us don't see the limitations of DTML as something that is broken, or that it is not good.I don'tI see we have to improve teaching. think there is anything wrong with ZPT either, I simply don't have a use
 for it.Coexist? Yes, I hope they always do. Personally, I am doing more and more with PHP.There are multiple reasons for that, but partly it is due to a conception in the Zope community that DTML is bad, and as such, it might go away. The *hype* is
 all about ZPT, not DTML.I don't want to pursue a development platformYou can have PT with PHP too. Thats the cool part about it. Its reallykinda standard. You have PT for Zope, PHP, Perl, Java, ...
 that is a foundation of my applications on something that is going away, or even hinting to it.That might not be the case, might be totally false.But we cant deny the fact that if there is no hype, then there
 is no attention to it, and less people will use it and even less will support it.I dont think thats the problem. I saw even weirder frameworksto work with. I guess we could introduce an even suckier template
language and people would fall in love with it.BTW: ZPT is not, and was never a replacement for DTML.DTML would be replaced by application logic in pythonor python scripts and ZPT together.No matter if DTML is still there (and it will) we should
find better ways to teach people how to easy develope inZope.++Tino-- Greg Fischer1st Byte Solutionshttp://www.1stbyte.com

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Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!

2006-01-15 Thread Rakotomandimby Mihamina
On Mon, 2006-01-09 at 14:29 +0100, Garito wrote:
 I thing DTML and ZClasses will disapear someday

You think, I hope :-)

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Re: [***SPAM*** Score/Req: 10.41/04.00] Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!

2006-01-09 Thread Garito

Jonathan escribió:


To pour fuel on the flames...
 
+1 DTML

-1 ZPT
 
Why...
 
1) For 'quick and dirty' demos and rapid application prototyping DTML 
does the trick (yes, even including ZClasses), it is fast, easy, 
reasonably robust and it works!
 
2) For 'heavy lifting' (ie. intense computation, high loads, etc.) I 
prefer a 'product' approach.
 
3) For client-side functionality/control I prefer an AJAX approach 
using a combination of javascript/HTML/XHTML/XHTML-MP plus server-side 
python scripts/external methods/products.
 
ZPT is a bit of a hybrid which increases overhead and doesn't really 
bring any new functionality to the table (for my applications and 
environment).  Yes, for separating (well, mostly separating) content 
from display formatting ZPT is one possible solution, but the divorce 
of content and presentation is better achieved with an AJAX type of 
approach.
 
I think Zope beginners would be better off using DTML (easier to 
learn, user's get quicker results and therefore have more satisfaction 
with Zope as a development platform), and then 'serious' development 
should be done using an AJAX approach with Zope 3 - the way of the 
future imho :-)
 
If we had to make a choice for the future I would prefer Zope 2 + DTML 
and Zope 3 + AJAX (and consign ZPT to the 'good idea at the time' 
bin).  Possibly, in the distant future, AJAX utilities/ides will exist 
which will make rapid prototyping and 'quick  dirty' demos feasible, 
in which case Zope 2 + DTML could fade into happy history.
 
Just my 1-1/2 cents.
 
 
Jonathan
 


- Original Message -
*From:* Greg Fischer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
*Cc:* zope@zope.org mailto:zope@zope.org
*Sent:* Sunday, January 08, 2006 5:06 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!

Yes, we need hype!  And a hot looking site, WITH Web 2.0 features. 


Many of these frameworks are providing AJAX capabilities, simple
graphics and data/object access without page reloads.  (like I am
using with Dojo right now)  What does Zope not provide these
features built-in?

And yes, about the central docs.  A ton of info is available right
on Zope.org http://Zope.org, but I always find more on
individual blogs or other google searches.  Zope.org
http://Zope.orgcould use a more intuitive help finder maybe. 
Actually, how aboot a Zopedigg?  Diggs on just Zope articles and

such, with comments?  That would be hot!  Better and easier than a
wiki, IMHO.  The one thing I would say is, from my perspective,
when I have info to share on Zope work I have done, I like to post
on my blog or site, not Zope's. Because I like to provide a demo
or maybe include things *my* way.  Having a ZopeDigg would allow
us to post our work in a central repository, and look a little
flashy too.

The video tutorial should be made.  Like RoR and Symfony-project
have.  It shows beginners how easy something is to do.  And they
will download it.  I did. 


Also, I know this will get some people flaming probably, but Zope
needs more hype for DTML. I KNOW!  99% of you hate it.  But every
time I show someone how to do it, their eyes light up.  It's very
simple coming from ASP or PHP, once you see it in action.  ZPT is
just plain confusing to me.  I hate to say this too, but I am
doing much more in PHP these days, partly due to the fact that
there exists a large dtml sucks attitude in the community.  And
even though it has been said that DTML is not going away, if there
is no hype about it, then it might.  And I don't want to keep
using Zope without it. Yes, yes, I know DTML has many
disadvantages, but it also has many advantages.  I wish there were
more hype about it. 


So, here's a big wish of mine too.  What if Zope was a
*complete* framework, including a web based IDE?  I dont mean the
ZMI, which is hot in itself, but a full featured AJAX-ish IDE,
built upon Zope. Drag and drop widgets and properties even. It
would also have full database access built in. Mysql, Mssql,
Oracle, Postgresql, all ready to go, without needing to purchase
and configure a database adapter.  This would provide a web based,
development framework like .NET using Visual Studio.  Only this
would work on Zope, and therefore would run on Linux OR Windows! 
It doesnt have to be so comprehensive like VS, but simple form

editor with properties and XMLHTTPRequest capability would be
great.  I think we would have a KILLER APP!

Well, maybe I am dreamin?  Just thought I'd give my 2 cents.

Oh, and is the community growing? Well, I think the Netcraft
surveys say a lot.  I know this isnt definitive, but I think it's
great info.  Since I started using Zope in 2002, the sites using
Zope have grown from 6000 to 42000.  Cool!

42000+ Sites in 2006
http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0601/

6000+ Sites

Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!

2006-01-09 Thread Jens Vagelpohl


On 9 Jan 2006, at 13:29, Garito wrote:
13 KB deleted

Please clean up the subject line to remove your spam filter's  
markings before you reply. And don't quote a whole long discussion  
including countless message footers only to add one line to the bottom.


Thanks!

jens

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Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!

2006-01-08 Thread Greg Fischer
Yes, we need hype! And a hot looking site, WITH Web 2.0 features. Many of these frameworks are providing AJAX capabilities, simple graphics and data/object access without page reloads. (like I am using with Dojo right now) What does Zope not provide these features built-in?
And yes, about the central docs. A ton of info is available right on Zope.org, but I always find more on individual blogs or other google searches. Zope.org
 could use a more intuitive help finder maybe. Actually, how aboot a Zopedigg? Diggs on just Zope articles and such, with comments? That would be hot! Better and easier than a wiki, IMHO. The one thing I would say is, from my perspective, when I have info to share on Zope work I have done, I like to post on my blog or site, not Zope's. Because I like to provide a demo or maybe include things *my* way. Having a ZopeDigg would allow us to post our work in a central repository, and look a little flashy too.
The video tutorial should be made. Like RoR and Symfony-project have. It shows beginners how easy something is to do. And they will download it. I did. Also, I know this will get some people flaming probably, but Zope needs more hype for DTML. I KNOW! 99% of you hate it. But every time I show someone how to do it, their eyes light up. It's very simple coming from ASP or PHP, once you see it in action. ZPT is just plain confusing to me. I hate to say this too, but I am doing much more in PHP these days, partly due to the fact that there exists a large dtml sucks attitude in the community. And even though it has been said that DTML is not going away, if there is no hype about it, then it might. And I don't want to keep using Zope without it. Yes, yes, I know DTML has many disadvantages, but it also has many advantages. I wish there were more hype about it. 
So, here's a big wish of mine too. What if Zope was a *complete* framework, including a web based IDE? I dont mean the ZMI, which is hot in itself, but a full featured AJAX-ish IDE, built upon Zope. Drag and drop widgets and properties even. It would also have full database access built in. Mysql, Mssql, Oracle, Postgresql, all ready to go, without needing to purchase and configure a database adapter. This would provide a web based, development framework like .NET using Visual Studio. Only this would work on Zope, and therefore would run on Linux OR Windows! It doesnt have to be so comprehensive like VS, but simple form editor with properties and XMLHTTPRequest capability would be great. I think we would have a KILLER APP!
Well, maybe I am dreamin? Just thought I'd give my 2 cents.Oh, and is the community growing? Well, I think the Netcraft surveys say a lot. I know this isnt definitive, but I think it's great info. Since I started using Zope in 2002, the sites using Zope have grown from 6000 to 42000. Cool!
42000+ Sites in 2006http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0601/6000+ Sites in 2002http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0201/
Happy new year everyone!On 1/3/06, Jonathan Cyr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



  


Do we know Is the Zope
community growing or shrinking? Is there even a problem? Is Python
growing or shrinking? Is there any connection? 

Zope.org seems to have been built as a community center, with accounts/
3rd party add-ons etc. Is it working. RubyonRails.com has none of
this functionality.

Perhaps a GetZope.com site, similar to GetFirefox.com is in order, that
provides a very small amount of get started information.

Two Cents,

-Jon

Gert Thiel wrote:

  Dear friends.A few days ago the Ruby on Rails development team published the 1.0 release.At that occasion the Zope fans are reminded how far Zope fell far behind interms of attention and recognized widespread.
Python has batteries included. Zope is a power plant. But still everyonespeaks of Django, Turbogears or Ruby on Rails. Even if they talk about theshortcommings of J2EE.Some of the best content management systems are build using Zope 2. CPS, ZMS
and my favourite: Plone. And Typo3 gets even more attention. Why?Because we failed. We aren't marketing Zope at all. Have a look at 
zope.org.Do you think, that any CEO will stay at that site more than 10 seconds? Havea look at rubyonrails.org
 and cry. Zope 3.2 will be delivered soon. Have anylook at zope.org ‹ where isŠ You got it.To a certain extent Zope 2 was attracting like a nuclear power plant.
Whenever I start programming with Zope 2, latest for Plone, I can feel itspower before even diving into it much, but I'm alarmed of its pitfalls atthe very same time. So all my hopes are with Zope 3 which enabled me without
hurting me yet. Will I get a truly powerful replacement for J2EE?Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever:Make them love Zope at the very first look:* Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and
* offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application  including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling  of 

Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!

2006-01-08 Thread Jean-Marc Orliaguet

Greg Fischer wrote:

Yes, we need hype!  And a hot looking site, WITH Web 2.0 features. 

Many of these frameworks are providing AJAX capabilities, simple 
graphics and data/object access without page reloads.  (like I am 
using with Dojo right now)  What does Zope not provide these features 
built-in?


And yes, about the central docs.  A ton of info is available right on 
Zope.org http://Zope.org, but I always find more on individual blogs 
or other google searches.  Zope.org http://Zope.org could use a more 
intuitive help finder maybe.  Actually, how aboot a Zopedigg?  Diggs 
on just Zope articles and such, with comments?  That would be hot!  
Better and easier than a wiki, IMHO.  The one thing I would say is, 
from my perspective, when I have info to share on Zope work I have 
done, I like to post on my blog or site, not Zope's. Because I like to 
provide a demo or maybe include things *my* way.  Having a ZopeDigg 
would allow us to post our work in a central repository, and look a 
little flashy too.


The video tutorial should be made.  Like RoR and Symfony-project 
have.  It shows beginners how easy something is to do.  And they will 
download it.  I did. 

Also, I know this will get some people flaming probably, but Zope 
needs more hype for DTML. I KNOW!  99% of you hate it.  But every time 
I show someone how to do it, their eyes light up.  It's very simple 
coming from ASP or PHP, once you see it in action.  ZPT is just plain 
confusing to me.  I hate to say this too, but I am doing much more in 
PHP these days, partly due to the fact that there exists a large dtml 
sucks attitude in the community.  And even though it has been said 
that DTML is not going away, if there is no hype about it, then it 
might.  And I don't want to keep using Zope without it. Yes, yes, I 
know DTML has many disadvantages, but it also has many advantages.  I 
wish there were more hype about it. 

So, here's a big wish of mine too.  What if Zope was a *complete* 
framework, including a web based IDE?  I dont mean the ZMI, which is 
hot in itself, but a full featured AJAX-ish IDE, built upon Zope. Drag 
and drop widgets and properties even. It would also have full database 
access built in. Mysql, Mssql, Oracle, Postgresql, all ready to go, 
without needing to purchase and configure a database adapter.  This 
would provide a web based, development framework like .NET using 
Visual Studio.  Only this would work on Zope, and therefore would run 
on Linux OR Windows!  It doesnt have to be so comprehensive like VS, 
but simple form editor with properties and XMLHTTPRequest capability 
would be great.  I think we would have a KILLER APP!


Well, maybe I am dreamin?  Just thought I'd give my 2 cents.



Hi! concerning the web based IDE I'm currently working on something like 
what you describe for Zope3.


You should get on the z3lab-list.  You can also get a blog on z3lab.org 
and post flash animations:

http://www.z3lab.org/
http://lists.nuxeo.com/mailman/listinfo/z3lab

Regards
/JM
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Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!

2006-01-08 Thread Jonathan



To pour fuel on the flames...

+1 DTML
-1 ZPT

Why...

1) For 'quick and dirty' demos and rapid 
application prototypingDTML does the trick (yes, even including ZClasses), 
it isfast, easy, reasonably robustandit works!

2) For 'heavy lifting' (ie. intense computation, 
high loads, etc.) I prefer a 'product' approach.

3) For client-side 
functionality/controlI prefer an AJAX 
approach using a combination of _javascript_/HTML/XHTML/XHTML-MP plus server-side 
python scripts/external methods/products.

ZPT is a bit of a hybrid whichincreases 
overhead and doesn't really bring any new functionality to the table (for my 
applications and environment). Yes, for separating (well, mostly 
separating) content from display formatting ZPT is one possible solution, but 
the divorce of content and presentation isbetter achievedwith an 
AJAX type of approach.

I think Zope beginners would be better off using 
DTML (easier to learn, user's get quicker results and therefore have more 
satisfaction with Zope as a development platform), and then 'serious' 
development should be done using an AJAX approach with Zope 3 - the way of the 
futureimho:-)

If we had to make a choice for the future I would 
prefer Zope 2 + DTML and Zope 3 + AJAX (and consign ZPT to the 'good idea at the 
time' bin). Possibly, in the distant future, AJAX utilities/ides will 
exist which will make rapid prototyping and 'quick  dirty' demos feasible, 
in which case Zope 2 + DTML could fade into happy history.

Just my 1-1/2 cents.


Jonathan


  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Greg Fischer 
  
  Cc: zope@zope.org 
  Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 5:06 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower 
  now!
  Yes, we need hype! And a "hot" looking site, WITH Web 2.0 
  features. Many of these frameworks are providing AJAX 
  capabilities, simple graphics and data/object access without page 
  reloads. (like I am using with Dojo right now) What does Zope not 
  provide these features "built-in"? And yes, about the central 
  docs. A ton of info is available right on Zope.org, but I always find more on individual 
  blogs or other google searches. Zope.org 
  could use a more intuitive help finder maybe. Actually, how aboot a 
  Zopedigg? Diggs on just Zope articles and such, with comments? 
  That would be hot! Better and easier than a wiki, IMHO. The one 
  thing I would say is, from my perspective, when I have info to share on Zope 
  work I have done, I like to post on my blog or site, not Zope's. Because I 
  like to provide a demo or maybe include things *my* way. Having a 
  ZopeDigg would allow us to post our work in a central repository, and look a 
  little flashy too. The video tutorial should be made. Like RoR 
  and Symfony-project have. It shows beginners how easy something is to 
  do. And they will download it. I did. Also, I know 
  this will get some people flaming probably, but Zope needs more hype for DTML. 
  I KNOW! 99% of you hate it. But every time I show someone how to 
  do it, their eyes light up. It's very simple coming from ASP or PHP, 
  once you see it in action. ZPT is just plain confusing to me. I 
  hate to say this too, but I am doing much more in PHP these days, partly due 
  to the fact that there exists a large "dtml sucks" attitude in the 
  community. And even though it has been said that DTML is not going away, 
  if there is no hype about it, then it might. And I don't want to keep 
  using Zope without it. Yes, yes, I know DTML has many disadvantages, but it 
  also has many advantages. I wish there were more hype about it. 
  So, here's a big "wish" of mine too. What if Zope was a 
  *complete* framework, including a web based IDE? I dont mean the ZMI, 
  which is hot in itself, but a full featured AJAX-ish IDE, built upon Zope. 
  Drag and drop widgets and properties even. It would also have full database 
  access built in. Mysql, Mssql, Oracle, Postgresql, all ready to go, without 
  needing to purchase and configure a database adapter. This would provide 
  a web based, development framework like .NET using Visual Studio. Only 
  this would work on Zope, and therefore would run on Linux OR Windows! It 
  doesnt have to be so comprehensive like VS, but simple form editor with 
  properties and XMLHTTPRequest capability would be great. I think we 
  would have a KILLER APP! Well, maybe I am dreamin? Just thought 
  I'd give my 2 cents.Oh, and is the community growing? Well, I think 
  the Netcraft surveys say a lot. I know this isnt definitive, but I think 
  it's great info. Since I started using Zope in 2002, the sites using 
  Zope have grown from 6000 to 42000. Cool! 42000+ Sites in 
  2006http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0601/6000+ 
  Sites in 2002http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0201/ 
  Happy new year everyone!
  On 1/3/06, Jonathan 
  Cyr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Do we know Is the Zope community growing or 
shrinking? Is

Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!

2006-01-08 Thread David H




Jonathan wrote:

  
  
  
  To pour fuel on the flames...
   
  +1 DTML
  -1 ZPT
   
  Why...
   
  1) For 'quick and dirty' demos and
rapid application prototyping DTML does the trick (yes, even including
ZClasses), it is fast, easy, reasonably robust and it works!
   
  2) For 'heavy lifting' (ie. intense
computation, high loads, etc.) I prefer a 'product' approach.
   
  3) For client-side
functionality/control I prefer an
AJAX approach using a combination of _javascript_/HTML/XHTML/XHTML-MP
plus server-side python scripts/external methods/products.
   
  ZPT is a bit of a hybrid
which increases overhead and doesn't really bring any new functionality
to the table (for my applications and environment).  Yes, for
separating (well, mostly separating) content from display formatting
ZPT is one possible solution, but the divorce of content and
presentation is better achieved with an AJAX type of approach.
   
  I think Zope beginners would be
better off using DTML (easier to learn, user's get quicker results and
therefore have more satisfaction with Zope as a development platform),
and then 'serious' development should be done using an AJAX approach
with Zope 3 - the way of the future imho :-)
   
  If we had to make a choice for the
future I would prefer Zope 2 + DTML and Zope 3 + AJAX (and consign ZPT
to the 'good idea at the time' bin).  Possibly, in the distant future,
AJAX utilities/ides will exist which will make rapid prototyping and
'quick  dirty' demos feasible, in which case Zope 2 + DTML could
fade into happy history.
   
  Just my 1-1/2 cents.
   
   
  Jonathan
   
  
-
Origin
  


Think about it:  we argue about Z Classes vs DTML vs ZPT + python
scripts vs Products.  Its all good.

Zope + 1
  
 :-) 

David




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Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!

2006-01-03 Thread Jonathan Cyr




Do we know Is the Zope
community growing or shrinking? Is there even a problem? Is Python
growing or shrinking? Is there any connection? 

Zope.org seems to have been built as a community center, with accounts/
3rd party add-ons etc. Is it working. RubyonRails.com has none of
this functionality.

Perhaps a GetZope.com site, similar to GetFirefox.com is in order, that
provides a very small amount of "get started" information.

Two Cents,

-Jon

Gert Thiel wrote:

  Dear friends.

A few days ago the Ruby on Rails development team published the 1.0 release.
At that occasion the Zope fans are reminded how far Zope fell far behind in
terms of attention and recognized widespread.

Python has batteries included. Zope is a power plant. But still everyone
speaks of Django, Turbogears or Ruby on Rails. Even if they talk about the
shortcommings of J2EE.

Some of the best content management systems are build using Zope 2. CPS, ZMS
and my favourite: Plone. And Typo3 gets even more attention. Why?

Because we failed. We aren't marketing Zope at all. Have a look at zope.org.
Do you think, that any CEO will stay at that site more than 10 seconds? Have
a look at rubyonrails.org and cry. Zope 3.2 will be delivered soon. Have any
look at zope.org  where is You got it.

To a certain extent Zope 2 was attracting like a nuclear power plant.
Whenever I start programming with Zope 2, latest for Plone, I can feel its
power before even diving into it much, but I'm alarmed of its pitfalls at
the very same time. So all my hopes are with Zope 3 which enabled me without
hurting me yet. Will I get a truly powerful replacement for J2EE?

Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever:

Make them love Zope at the very first look:

* Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and
* offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application
  including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling
  of success.

Bribe the managers:

* Include Microsoft SQL-Server and Oracle relational database access.
* Include powerful XML processing facilities and
* include everything necessary and useful to build or use web services.

Enable the beginners:

* Easy to read and understand  but still complete and current 
  documentation is a must.
* Avoid cluttering everything about Zope across articles, blogs, chats,
  mailing lists and wikis. Keep everything available and searchable at
  one central location.

Remember: The power of Ruby on Rails doesn't come from either Ruby or the
framework but from its community.

And  of course  make Zope 4 even better.

Regards,

  Gert

http://www.gertthiel.de/blog/drafts/ivory-tower/


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-- 
Jonathan Cyr
http://www.cyr.info
http://www.weddingweblog.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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[Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!

2005-12-22 Thread Gert Thiel
Dear friends.

A few days ago the Ruby on Rails development team published the 1.0 release.
At that occasion the Zope fans are reminded how far Zope fell far behind in
terms of attention and recognized widespread.

Python has batteries included. Zope is a power plant. But still everyone
speaks of Django, Turbogears or Ruby on Rails. Even if they talk about the
shortcommings of J2EE.

Some of the best content management systems are build using Zope 2. CPS, ZMS
and my favourite: Plone. And Typo3 gets even more attention. Why?

Because we failed. We aren't marketing Zope at all. Have a look at zope.org.
Do you think, that any CEO will stay at that site more than 10 seconds? Have
a look at rubyonrails.org and cry. Zope 3.2 will be delivered soon. Have any
look at zope.org ‹ where isŠ You got it.

To a certain extent Zope 2 was attracting like a nuclear power plant.
Whenever I start programming with Zope 2, latest for Plone, I can feel its
power before even diving into it much, but I'm alarmed of its pitfalls at
the very same time. So all my hopes are with Zope 3 which enabled me without
hurting me yet. Will I get a truly powerful replacement for J2EE?

Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever:

Make them love Zope at the very first look:

* Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and
* offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application
  including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling
  of success.

Bribe the managers:

* Include Microsoft SQL-Server and Oracle relational database access.
* Include powerful XML processing facilities and
* include everything necessary and useful to build or use web services.

Enable the beginners:

* Easy to read and understand ‹ but still complete and current ‹
  documentation is a must.
* Avoid cluttering everything about Zope across articles, blogs, chats,
  mailing lists and wikis. Keep everything available and searchable at
  one central location.

Remember: The power of Ruby on Rails doesn't come from either Ruby or the
framework but from its community.

And ‹ of course ‹ make Zope 4 even better.

Regards,

  Gert

http://www.gertthiel.de/blog/drafts/ivory-tower/


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