Re: [Zope] Looking for Zope vs. Others at-a-glance comparison

2000-09-12 Thread Richard Moon

I've enjoyed the contributions on this thread. Some time back I mentioned 
that what hooked me on Zope was the Relational Database access "out of the 
box".

I liked the way Zope generated a simple database query form and result - so 
I agree strongly that Zope could hook more people if it did even more 
useful things without coding. I even suggested others submitted their 
favourite ideas for a "Wizards of Zope" beauty contest.

I've been supplying solutions to clients for xx years now and my philosophy 
has always been to code at the highest possible level. Don't code in 
machine code if you can code in assembler, don't code in assembler if you 
can code in C,  don't code in C if you can code in a 4GL, don't code at all 
if you don't have to :-)

Zope offers the potential to be the perfect development environment with 
tons of really good solutions off the shelf - these can be customised if 
they have to, we can drop down to Python if we really need to. Perfect.

Unfortunately its been difficult to get discussions like this going on 
zope.org as its mainly devoted to coding problems, while zope-dev is to do 
with deep and complex zopezen.

I know usability is high on Paul Everitts list, 'cos he said so in Paris.

Perhaps we need zope-usability.org as a forum for non-technical discussions 
about Zope development ?




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[Zope] Looking for Zope vs. Others at-a-glance comparison

2000-09-12 Thread Spicklemire, Jerry

Richard Moon says:

Zope offers the potential to be the perfect development environment with 
tons of really good solutions off the shelf - these can be customised if 
they have to, we can drop down to Python if we really need to. Perfect.

Unfortunately its been difficult to get discussions like this going on 
zope.org as its mainly devoted to coding problems, while zope-dev is to do 
with deep and complex zopezen.

Many very helpful goodies have been contributed, and are available under
"Downloads". However, as we've seen so often, documentation is the last 
thing on the priority list, so these gems are mostly still quite rough. 

It looks like a great deal of value can be added to Zope in the form of 
ultra-easy integration of stuff that already exists, and step-by-step, 
"hold my hand" How-To docs to makes sure even the greenest Newbies can 
make the most of what's there.

Thanks for all the cogent comments!
Jerry S.

 


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Re: [Zope] Looking for Zope vs. Others at-a-glance comparison

2000-09-11 Thread Jason Cunliffe

Ron

yes +thanks for paying keen attention here..

  What Manila has done is to provide some reasonable default templates for
  getting useful site development work done 'out of the box' - they have
  provided a structure template, and well defined access to changing the
  obvious things people want to change.

 I see.  Having higher level drop-in Web sites, IMO, is a job for add-on
Zope
 products that could be created by DC or the community to meet various
needs
 (as in Squishdot like projects).  As the Zope community grows, I have no
 doubt that more add-on products for "Web sites in a can" will pop up.


Exactly.
My concern is to get the right kind of discussion going because it is going
to need some differnt kinds of minds to work together.

 I can only guess that most Zope users are either not designers or are so
 filled with awe over its power that they forget to put effort into beauty.
 :-)  I think Zope lends itself more to the programmer and content provider
 types, and leaves the designer with nothing special to desire.  I don't
say
 that in a bad way, but Zope isn't a design tool, so designers have no
 special interest in learning to use it.  As Zope makes its way into more
 businesses with design teams, pretty design will make its way into more
Zope
 sites.

Problem is am not sure Zopie will make its way into more businesses wiht
design teams if it is such a pain in the $# to get sites sketched out.

A really valuable  feature which Zope could offer is Site-Sketching
You do the back of napkin whiteboard 'design' of the main site architecture
hierharchy functioning. Now you need to map it out in 'dummy' mode so
everyone can get to work playing with it and working on the bits they are
all best at.
You know you are going to make changes and so you want to benfit from object
abstraction from the get go
You know in house team and design [visual + code] will force changes not to
mention clients..
Then start throwing database at it - look and feel vs. satabase search
menchaisms etc. This can be expensive time consumign stuff.. things people
need to apply samrt reusable components to.. but which also allow them to
get down very fingraoned and adjust = zope
I think there is a big demand for this kind of up and running toolset.

A zope folder full images or navigation widgets or search form elements are
the type of things yu want to do a single copy paste or import on.

I am a designer who has a special interest in learning to use.
I do not see many other tools with this potential, but in its present state
and my present programming skills, I am still a little short of being able
to take Zope where I see it can go on my own. I hope this changes soon..


 My understanding is that DC has been putting so much of their resources
into
 the Zope core, much needed documentation, and probably their consulting
 business, that their own Web site has been left with a lower priority.  I
 don't fault them for that.  I think they've done a great job at
 prioritizing.

Granted.
The price is right and there is some hairy stuff under the hood.
I just hope DC can step back a bit more from time to time to see where they
fit in from other perspectives also.
I realize their income comes from consulting.
They could apply their expertise [or others] to package off useful stuff for
a reasonable price.
Zope products coudl be very cost efefctive all around - those with teh time
and skills can develope their own.
Perhaos you are right adn it is still a little early yet.. maybe next year..

  And if you select yes you will get 'index_html' and 'acl_users'
included..
  THIS is the entry point I am talking about
  The 'Add a Folder' page needs to offer more so that it can default to
the
  immediate bones of a useful site, methods and links. The irony to

 I think the "bones of a useful site" belong in a different object than a
 Folder, though I agree that specialized products/objects for canned sites
 would be a nice addition to the Zope products list, whether from DC or the
 community.

Yes.  How about :
- 'Add Bones object'
- 'Add Navigation Object'
- Add Styles object'
- 'Add Report Object'
- 'Add WebSite Object'

Any one else interested to go further with this?

kind regards
- Jason


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RE: [Zope] Looking for Zope vs. Others at-a-glance comparison

2000-09-11 Thread Ron Bickers


 What Manila has done is to provide some reasonable default templates for
 getting useful site development work done 'out of the box' - they have
 provided a structure template, and well defined access to changing the
 obvious things people want to change.

I see.  Having higher level drop-in Web sites, IMO, is a job for add-on Zope
products that could be created by DC or the community to meet various needs
(as in Squishdot like projects).  As the Zope community grows, I have no
doubt that more add-on products for "Web sites in a can" will pop up.

  to do so.  Zope (in my experience) does nothing to limit the ability to
 make
  a site attractive, but it does do buckets for increasing manageability.

 Yes. I quite agree..But why are there no attractive Zope sites?

I can only guess that most Zope users are either not designers or are so
filled with awe over its power that they forget to put effort into beauty.
:-)  I think Zope lends itself more to the programmer and content provider
types, and leaves the designer with nothing special to desire.  I don't say
that in a bad way, but Zope isn't a design tool, so designers have no
special interest in learning to use it.  As Zope makes its way into more
businesses with design teams, pretty design will make its way into more Zope
sites.

  world examples of Zope's power.  Using any of the already available
  calendar-like products for Zope, DC could easily create a calendar to
 browse
  through stuff.  Again, it's not a limitation of Zope, the
 developers just
  didn't do it.

 Yes and I am continuously curious why they did not?

My understanding is that DC has been putting so much of their resources into
the Zope core, much needed documentation, and probably their consulting
business, that their own Web site has been left with a lower priority.  I
don't fault them for that.  I think they've done a great job at
prioritizing.

 And if you select yes you will get 'index_html' and 'acl_users' included..
 THIS is the entry point I am talking about
 The 'Add a Folder' page needs to offer more so that it can default to the
 immediate bones of a useful site, methods and links. The irony to

I think the "bones of a useful site" belong in a different object than a
Folder, though I agree that specialized products/objects for canned sites
would be a nice addition to the Zope products list, whether from DC or the
community.

___

Ron Bickers
Logic Etc, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [Zope] Looking for Zope vs. Others at-a-glance comparison

2000-09-11 Thread JTC Murphy


Oooh, now there's an interesting thought...

One would like to - but there often aren't enough hours in the day.
Actually one is frequently lucky to even get the option to try to pick
something at all, never mind doing the research - some combination of
"we've already got it" or "its "free" (it never is)" or "its got
microsoft written on the outside of the box" or "we already know insert
name of something relevant" tends to get in the way.

Sometimes you get lucky, and in the meantime you take an interest in
the stuff going on around you so that you can make a bid for use of a
better mousetrap when the opportunity arises...

Have fun, Murph

 Nils Kassube [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/09/00 14:44:50 

I'm only an innocent Computer Science student who still thinks
that in Real Life (tm) outside university you research competing
solutions before selecting a product :-)



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Re: [Zope] Looking for Zope vs. Others at-a-glance comparison

2000-09-11 Thread albert boulanger




   Exactly.
   My concern is to get the right kind of discussion going because it is going
   to need some differnt kinds of minds to work together.

This meshes with my thinking recently. I think many in the Zope
community are "early-adopters" kind of people -- willing to put up
with spending time to know the ins and outs of DTML or python
programmers who would do most in python. A python programmer or early
adopter does not a typical web design team make. Personally. I like the
notion of a DTML an that you can do a little business logic there if
you choose to. This issue with DTML in my mind is that its
syntax/semantics design throws people for loops that can waste their
time for sometimes days. Early adopters will go through this trial by
fire. I did and now on the other side I know the gotchas.  Early
adopters are a special breed of people that will give a new product a
ring of success but this pool saturates easily, leading a new company
to the chasm.

To cross the chasm, and reach a broader audience, this trial by fire
phase of becoming a productive Zope user has to be reduced -- in
addition to addressing other productivity parts of the bigger product
pie mentioned in prior messages.

If you are interested in understanding the business of Crossing the
Chasm, I would recommend a book by the same name.  I think the Zope
story is still unfolding on how an open source product will cross the
chasm.

Regards,
Albert Boulanger
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Zope] Looking for Zope vs. Others at-a-glance comparison

2000-09-11 Thread Jason Cunliffe

Exactly.
My concern is to get the right kind of discussion going because it is
going
to need some differnt kinds of minds to work together.

 This meshes with my thinking recently. I think many in the Zope
 community are "early-adopters" kind of people -- willing to put up
 with spending time to know the ins and outs of DTML or python
 programmers who would do most in python. A python programmer or early
 adopter does not a typical web design team make. Personally. I like the
 notion of a DTML an that you can do a little business logic there if
 you choose to. This issue with DTML in my mind is that its
 syntax/semantics design throws people for loops that can waste their
 time for sometimes days. Early adopters will go through this trial by
 fire. I did and now on the other side I know the gotchas.  Early
 adopters are a special breed of people that will give a new product a
 ring of success but this pool saturates easily, leading a new company
 to the chasm.


Well put.

 To cross the chasm, and reach a broader audience, this trial by fire
 phase of becoming a productive Zope user has to be reduced -- in
 addition to addressing other productivity parts of the bigger product
 pie mentioned in prior messages.

 If you are interested in understanding the business of Crossing the
 Chasm, I would recommend a book by the same name.  I think the Zope
 story is still unfolding on how an open source product will cross the
 chasm.

 Regards,
 Albert Boulanger
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Thanks for this. It looks interesting. Google came up with:
http://www.testing.com/writings/reviews/moore-chasm.html
http://www.mit.edu/people/wdc/chasm.html

and a lot of other funny stuff

I recommend Don Norman's "The Invisble Computer".
It belongs on teh same shelf next to 'Crossing the Chasm'.

regards
- JASon


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Re: [Zope] Looking for Zope vs. Others at-a-glance comparison

2000-09-11 Thread J. Atwood

Sorry.. the second link should have been...

http://www.zope.org/Members/BwanaZulia/zope.html

J

 From: J. Atwood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 11:44:33 -0400
 To: Jason Cunliffe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [Zope] Looking for Zope vs. Others at-a-glance comparison
 
 Try 
 
 http://www.camworld.com/cms/
 
 And more at
 
 http://www.camworld.com/misc/cms.html
 
 Cheers,
 J
 
 From: "Jason Cunliffe" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 09:17:43 -0400
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [Zope] Looking for Zope vs. Others at-a-glance comparison
 
 Hello
 
 I need to present the arguments for why we haev chosen Zope vs. Others.
 
 Does anyone know of a clear at-a-glance table or anything with the main
 contenders, features, price, licensing etc.
 
 Thanks
 - Jason
 
 Jason CUNLIFFE = NOMADICS.(Interactive Art and Technology).Design Director
 
 
 
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Re: [Zope] Looking for Zope vs. Others at-a-glance comparison

2000-09-11 Thread J. Atwood

Try 

http://www.camworld.com/cms/

And more at

http://www.camworld.com/misc/cms.html

Cheers,
J

 From: "Jason Cunliffe" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 09:17:43 -0400
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [Zope] Looking for Zope vs. Others at-a-glance comparison
 
 Hello
 
 I need to present the arguments for why we haev chosen Zope vs. Others.
 
 Does anyone know of a clear at-a-glance table or anything with the main
 contenders, features, price, licensing etc.
 
 Thanks
 - Jason
 
 Jason CUNLIFFE = NOMADICS.(Interactive Art and Technology).Design Director
 
 
 
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Re: [Zope] Looking for Zope vs. Others at-a-glance comparison

2000-09-11 Thread Bill Anderson

Jason Cunliffe wrote:
 
  Completely calm and friendly opinions follow...
 
 yes thanks..
 
  I don't think it's any more difficult to create an attractive
  (graphics-wise) site in Zope than it is with PHP or ASP or plain old
  Apache-served HTML files.  Quite honestly, I'm not qualified to do it with
  any tool. :-)  I get the feeling that a lot of people expect Zope to
 design
  sites for them.  Maybe they're expecting too much.  Or maybe I'm expecting
  too little???  Or maybe it's that most of the people using Zope today
 (like
  me) are not pretty-site designers, but people that want a powerful tool to
  manage the most important part of a site...content.
 
 I agree absolutely that Zope is on level with PHP, ASP apacheHTML in terms
 of ease.
 My point is that Zope allows one to create powerful highlevel functionality
 at many levels, wrapping, hiding, abstracting, reusing, modularizing things
 which potentially could allow graphic designers to jump in and do great
 work. But out of the box it does not and for perhaps cultural reasons will
 not..Zope is largely based on reusable templates, and chunks of 'smart-html'
 better known as DTML.
 
 What Manila has done is to provide some reasonable default templates for
 getting useful site development work done 'out of the box' - they have
 provided a structure template, and well defined access to changing the
 obvious things people want to change.
 
 Perhaps the only product which does for Zope is Squishdot.. and I think that
 largely explains why most Zope sites are Squishdot or modified squishdot
 sites.

Then you need to get out more ;)
I have visited man, many zope sites, and only a few were squishdot based.

...

 This means tools with the flexibility of zope but not in it its present
 state of awareness.
 
  It's the site designers.  Zope isn't designed for assistance in creating
  attractive sites.  It's designed for creating manageable sites.  It's
  completely up to the designers to make it attractive, using tools designed
  to do so.  Zope (in my experience) does nothing to limit the ability to
 make
  a site attractive, but it does do buckets for increasing manageability.
 
 Yes. I quite agree..But why are there no attractive Zope sites?

Maybe you just have an entriely different idea of attractive? I have seen several site 
I would classify as 'attractive'.
I have seen sites that you wouldn't know were on a Zope server unless you noticed 
something like index_html in a link.
 
 My argument is that zope does nothing to HELP one's ability to make a site
 attractive.

And others arew arguing that it should not. Apache does nothing to help the 
'attractiveness' of a site, nor should it.

 Actually it does limit one's ability. for example look at even the syntax
 for making an image object borderless? it aunt obvious.. and it could/should
 be part of the image object properties

None of my images have problems with that. border=0 is pretty damned easy.

 
 --or how about a rollover button.. Yes that is a JavaScript problem perhaps,
 but what about including that as a BASIC feature of modern websites. But
 imagine if that alone was made easier by zope.

See the ActiveImage (?) product that does this.

 Navigation bar objects would be another big plus.
 Or how about a web page 'Table object' which made allowed one rapidly to
 group and include other zope object in a useful and productive way.

There are, I beleive, at least two products that do this.
 
 This is not gratuitous graphics this is stuff which is common to most
 websites. All the HTML tools do this.

Exactly. The HTML tools. That is where it belongs, not in a server.

 In zope a designer [= end user content manager] needs to be able to work
 with higher level tools which function with acquisition just like
 standard_html_header etc.
 
 for example [ad hoc]:
 
 1) Create a folder, some a sub folders and 'dummy' dtml documents.
 2) Add a navigation bar creating basic links to the above. This would auto
 create a set of matching named methods
 3) Add a style_object  which would allow one to apply css or similar across
 the above. Again auto-create matching named methods in each folder to allow
 low level tuning to happen later
 4) create a standard_table_object with named areas to allow population adn
 linking of HTML/DTML etc
 5) Create standard_site_overview document which would link to the above,
 including standard_report_methods which would spit out the stats/properties
 on each part so you could see each section in a browser but also print out.
 
 As I understand it all the above is daily business in zope, using all manner
 of dtml-in and -with, sequence-item iterations etc. But just bundling and
 linking these would allow a lot more people to jump and get on with making
 great Zope sites.
 
 This is not reinventing Dreamweaver3.

And none of this is something Zope prohibits. Do not confuse lack of IDE-type tools 
for editing HTMl with A Zope
Server's features and functionality. You 

Re: [Zope] Looking for Zope vs. Others at-a-glance comparison

2000-09-11 Thread Bill Anderson

Jason Cunliffe wrote:
 
 Ron
 
 yes +thanks for paying keen attention here..
 
   What Manila has done is to provide some reasonable default templates for
   getting useful site development work done 'out of the box' - they have
   provided a structure template, and well defined access to changing the
   obvious things people want to change.
 
  I see.  Having higher level drop-in Web sites, IMO, is a job for add-on
 Zope
  products that could be created by DC or the community to meet various
 needs
  (as in Squishdot like projects).  As the Zope community grows, I have no
  doubt that more add-on products for "Web sites in a can" will pop up.
 
 Exactly.
 My concern is to get the right kind of discussion going because it is going
 to need some differnt kinds of minds to work together.
 
  I can only guess that most Zope users are either not designers or are so
  filled with awe over its power that they forget to put effort into beauty.
  :-)  I think Zope lends itself more to the programmer and content provider
  types, and leaves the designer with nothing special to desire.  I don't
 say
  that in a bad way, but Zope isn't a design tool, so designers have no
  special interest in learning to use it.  As Zope makes its way into more
  businesses with design teams, pretty design will make its way into more
 Zope
  sites.
 
 Problem is am not sure Zopie will make its way into more businesses wiht
 design teams if it is such a pain in the $# to get sites sketched out.
 
 A really valuable  feature which Zope could offer is Site-Sketching
 You do the back of napkin whiteboard 'design' of the main site architecture
 hierharchy functioning. Now you need to map it out in 'dummy' mode so
 everyone can get to work playing with it and working on the bits they are
 all best at.
 You know you are going to make changes and so you want to benfit from object
 abstraction from the get go
 You know in house team and design [visual + code] will force changes not to
 mention clients..
 Then start throwing database at it - look and feel vs. satabase search
 menchaisms etc. This can be expensive time consumign stuff.. things people
 need to apply samrt reusable components to.. but which also allow them to
 get down very fingraoned and adjust = zope
 I think there is a big demand for this kind of up and running toolset.
 
 A zope folder full images or navigation widgets or search form elements are
 the type of things yu want to do a single copy paste or import on.
 
 I am a designer who has a special interest in learning to use.
 I do not see many other tools with this potential, but in its present state
 and my present programming skills, I am still a little short of being able
 to take Zope where I see it can go on my own. I hope this changes soon..
 
  My understanding is that DC has been putting so much of their resources
 into
  the Zope core, much needed documentation, and probably their consulting
  business, that their own Web site has been left with a lower priority.  I
  don't fault them for that.  I think they've done a great job at
  prioritizing.
 
 Granted.
 The price is right and there is some hairy stuff under the hood.
 I just hope DC can step back a bit more from time to time to see where they
 fit in from other perspectives also.
 I realize their income comes from consulting.
 They could apply their expertise [or others] to package off useful stuff for
 a reasonable price.
 Zope products coudl be very cost efefctive all around - those with teh time
 and skills can develope their own.
 Perhaos you are right adn it is still a little early yet.. maybe next year..
 
   And if you select yes you will get 'index_html' and 'acl_users'
 included..
   THIS is the entry point I am talking about
   The 'Add a Folder' page needs to offer more so that it can default to
 the
   immediate bones of a useful site, methods and links. The irony to
 
  I think the "bones of a useful site" belong in a different object than a
  Folder, though I agree that specialized products/objects for canned sites
  would be a nice addition to the Zope products list, whether from DC or the
  community.
 
 Yes.  How about :
 - 'Add Bones object'

What is a 'Bones' Object??

 - 'Add Navigation Object'
http://www.zope.org/Products/navigational

 - Add Styles object'

ZStylesheet

 - 'Add Report Object'

ListMate,MetaPublisher,Add Search Interface

 - 'Add WebSite Object'

Such as Squishdot, ZopePTK ...



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and have the root password.

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Re: [Zope] Looking for Zope vs. Others at-a-glance comparison

2000-09-10 Thread Nils Kassube

Jason Cunliffe wrote:

 What's missing?

For example, everything with Java (e.g. Apple WebObjects) or 
Perl (e.g. Mason). 
 
There is a good overview of Content Management Systems at

http://www.camworld.com/cms/

 For each of above I'd like to fill in the following:
 
 {'name':"name", 'features':{feature dict},'pro':[pros],
 'con':[cons] }

That's a bit difficult to do because we don't know what you
want to do with a CMS/web application platform. Manila, for
instance, is a nice end-user weblog application but not a
replacement for a real web app server. 

 If was more adept in DTML was I could put up a comparative poll page though
 I suspect most here would respond like you Nils.

I'm only an innocent Computer Science student who still thinks
that in Real Life (tm) outside university you research competing
solutions before selecting a product :-)

Anyone else seeing the parallel to software mentioned in Douglas
Adams' "Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency"? 

Cheers,
Nils
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Re: [Zope] Looking for Zope vs. Others at-a-glance comparison

2000-09-10 Thread Jason Cunliffe

Hi Nils

thanks for your reply
  What's missing?

 For example, everything with Java (e.g. Apple WebObjects) or
 Perl (e.g. Mason).

[doh] Java..Right [see what using zope does to one ?  ;-)

 There is a good overview of Content Management Systems at

 http://www.camworld.com/cms/

Excellent. Thanks very much for this.
and supplying a magic_phrase  = 'Content Management System'

  For each of above I'd like to fill in the following:
 
  {'name':"name", 'features':{feature dict},'pro':[pros],
  'con':[cons] }

 That's a bit difficult to do because we don't know what you
 want to do with a CMS/web application platform. Manila, for
 instance, is a nice end-user weblog application but not a
 replacement for a real web app server.

Yes of course not.
But imagine one meets up with a small group of  experienced people who have
all been working around Content Management Systems, are in Zope and are
tracking the developments both potential and RealWorld(tm). The you ask them
ok to get started can please resume for me zope and alternative systems
according you whatever priorities/experiences you wish. That conversation is
_not_ going to read like a research document. It is going be opinionated,
informed, direct and typically subjectively prioritized.. and damn helpful

I agree about Manila.
pros = ['good idea', 'great community', 'cool interesting RealWorld sites',
'designer-savvy', 'very user friendly' ]
cons = ['mac/win only', 'does not scale well to become 'real' web app
server', etc..]

What is very impressive is that it has focused on some real end user need
and answered that in large part. Zope could learn a lot from Manila.
[Zopefish etc]. Mostly Zope imho is just plain damn ugly out of the  box...
like some ghost from the 70s  - zero graphics sense.. it s a bitch to make a
decventlooking page in zope when it shouldn't be, not one nice looking zope
site I have visited yet vs. all those nice looking nice reading Weblogs.
Why?? Well Zope is very cool and powerful adn full of potential but try to
use it and even seasoned programmers become unraveled in obfuscated syntax,
etc etc.

I love what Zope represents, what it _can_ do, but I do not like what I see
people actually doing with it. This continues to bother me and I keep my eye
on where the alternatives are going for much the same reasons. Jeff Shelton
has been putting up great service with his ZopeNewbies page. Not an accident
that he is running it on Manila - because Manila makes it easy to set this
stuff up and keep it going. Zope does not.

In part the difference are that Manila attracts a more aesthetically
[visually] aware crowd than Zope. Zope is geeky and damn proud of it. Zope
rocks but there are no rocking zope sites that I can tell. Please correct me
if I am wrong.
[yes I am Awaiting some real news about CBS etc]
But look at the 'Case Studies' page..

It is not even titled  'Sites using Zope'
instead "The following are a list of case studies in which Zope provided the
solution."
Reading between the lines it does not inspire great confidence. Nor does
there appear to

Is the problem with the tool the technology or the users??
It is not an either or question - its a synergy issue.. But Zope does
nothing to encourage one alas nor do the examples out there, [yet].

Imagine if the home page at www.zope.org was built using Manila?
I'll bet it would be more dynamic more readable, more fun, more useful that
it is now. Even having a damn calendar to browse through developments, news
adn changes would be good. Not to mention the decidedly dead and strange
style and links. What a shame. But it does not stop me loving what is cool
about zope or trying to use it.

But as soon as more Manila-like Zope comes along I am likely going to jump
ship, because Zope is expensive to run. I am not talking about the free
price, I am talking about the counter-intuitive chaotically undocumented
nature of Zope.
And that costs developer time wickedly..Yes I know it is changing and
improving and I am holding on and hanging in there, hoping a) it improves
and b) I improve..

  If was more adept in DTML was I could put up a comparative poll page
though
  I suspect most here would respond like you Nils.

 I'm only an innocent Computer Science student who still thinks
 that in Real Life (tm) outside university you research competing
 solutions before selecting a product :-)

Of course you are right in this respect. We did that and
For-what-we-wanted-to-do, Zope met the most important criteria. But our
Project proposal was written and given the initial green light over 1 year
ago. It was an experiment to use zope then , and the experiment is still
running.

In brief I continue to be very impressed by portable import/export features
of Zope.
But we have elected to use External Methods to bypass lack-of-confidence and
some of the headaches we experienced doing things with DTML. We like the
resultant stretegy as it play sto both our own strengths and Zope's
strengths we think.

So 

RE: [Zope] Looking for Zope vs. Others at-a-glance comparison

2000-09-10 Thread Ron Bickers

Completely calm and friendly opinions follow...

 [Zopefish etc]. Mostly Zope imho is just plain damn ugly out of
 the  box...
 like some ghost from the 70s  - zero graphics sense.. it s a
 bitch to make a
 decventlooking page in zope when it shouldn't be, not one nice
 looking zope
 site I have visited yet vs. all those nice looking nice reading Weblogs.
 Why?? Well Zope is very cool and powerful adn full of potential but try to
 use it and even seasoned programmers become unraveled in
 obfuscated syntax,
 etc etc.

I don't think it's any more difficult to create an attractive
(graphics-wise) site in Zope than it is with PHP or ASP or plain old
Apache-served HTML files.  Quite honestly, I'm not qualified to do it with
any tool. :-)  I get the feeling that a lot of people expect Zope to design
sites for them.  Maybe they're expecting too much.  Or maybe I'm expecting
too little???  Or maybe it's that most of the people using Zope today (like
me) are not pretty-site designers, but people that want a powerful tool to
manage the most important part of a site...content.

 I love what Zope represents, what it _can_ do, but I do not like
 what I see
 people actually doing with it. This continues to bother me and I
 keep my eye
 on where the alternatives are going for much the same reasons.
 Jeff Shelton
 has been putting up great service with his ZopeNewbies page. Not
 an accident
 that he is running it on Manila - because Manila makes it easy to set this
 stuff up and keep it going. Zope does not.

Zope is not to blame for what people have done with it on the visual side.
Content is far more important than visual appeal.  I see too many companies
(many of my clients) ignoring this and focusing way too much on layout,
placement of images, colors, cute JavaScript menus and other fancy stuff.
I'm not saying these things are not at all important.  Browsing an
unattractive, sloppily layed out site with lots of useful information is
annoying and distracting.  But it's *far* better than browsing a fancy,
"attractive" site that has nothing to offer other than sparse information,
pretty images and slow viewing time.

 In part the difference are that Manila attracts a more aesthetically
 [visually] aware crowd than Zope. Zope is geeky and damn proud of it. Zope
 rocks but there are no rocking zope sites that I can tell. Please
 correct me
 if I am wrong.
 [yes I am Awaiting some real news about CBS etc]
 But look at the 'Case Studies' page..

 It is not even titled  'Sites using Zope'
 instead "The following are a list of case studies in which Zope
 provided the
 solution."
 Reading between the lines it does not inspire great confidence. Nor does
 there appear to

 Is the problem with the tool the technology or the users??
 It is not an either or question - its a synergy issue.. But Zope does
 nothing to encourage one alas nor do the examples out there, [yet].

It's the site designers.  Zope isn't designed for assistance in creating
attractive sites.  It's designed for creating manageable sites.  It's
completely up to the designers to make it attractive, using tools designed
to do so.  Zope (in my experience) does nothing to limit the ability to make
a site attractive, but it does do buckets for increasing manageability.

 Imagine if the home page at www.zope.org was built using Manila?
 I'll bet it would be more dynamic more readable, more fun, more
 useful that
 it is now. Even having a damn calendar to browse through
 developments, news
 adn changes would be good. Not to mention the decidedly dead and strange
 style and links. What a shame. But it does not stop me loving what is cool
 about zope or trying to use it.

I'm comfortable that the zope.org developers will agree that their site is
not the greatest thing on earth, esp. when it comes to prettiness.  It is,
however, consistent, easy to use, informative, and provides some nice real
world examples of Zope's power.  Using any of the already available
calendar-like products for Zope, DC could easily create a calendar to browse
through stuff.  Again, it's not a limitation of Zope, the developers just
didn't do it.

 But we have elected to use External Methods to bypass
 lack-of-confidence and
 some of the headaches we experienced doing things with DTML. We like the
 resultant stretegy as it play sto both our own strengths and Zope's
 strengths we think.

Perhaps your use of External Methods is because you should not have been
trying it in DTML in the first place.  I have seen so many times DTML used
for things it just wasn't designed to do.  After all, it's not a programming
language.  External Methods, Python Methods, ZSQL Methods and all the other
methods are there for a reason.  To each its own purpose.

 So may question is was not:
 - "What comparisons should I have made 12-18 months ago?",
 but rather:
 - "What is presently the state of play in Zope vs. Other Alternatives ?"

I rant about the powers of Zope while admittedly not knowing much about the

Re: [Zope] Looking for Zope vs. Others at-a-glance comparison

2000-09-10 Thread Jason Cunliffe

 Completely calm and friendly opinions follow...

yes thanks..

 I don't think it's any more difficult to create an attractive
 (graphics-wise) site in Zope than it is with PHP or ASP or plain old
 Apache-served HTML files.  Quite honestly, I'm not qualified to do it with
 any tool. :-)  I get the feeling that a lot of people expect Zope to
design
 sites for them.  Maybe they're expecting too much.  Or maybe I'm expecting
 too little???  Or maybe it's that most of the people using Zope today
(like
 me) are not pretty-site designers, but people that want a powerful tool to
 manage the most important part of a site...content.

I agree absolutely that Zope is on level with PHP, ASP apacheHTML in terms
of ease.
My point is that Zope allows one to create powerful highlevel functionality
at many levels, wrapping, hiding, abstracting, reusing, modularizing things
which potentially could allow graphic designers to jump in and do great
work. But out of the box it does not and for perhaps cultural reasons will
not..Zope is largely based on reusable templates, and chunks of 'smart-html'
better known as DTML.

What Manila has done is to provide some reasonable default templates for
getting useful site development work done 'out of the box' - they have
provided a structure template, and well defined access to changing the
obvious things people want to change.

Perhaps the only product which does for Zope is Squishdot.. and I think that
largely explains why most Zope sites are Squishdot or modified squishdot
sites. I do not believe it is content vs. style.. I really think it is a
matter of Zope programmers working with graphics and web site interface
designers to create some much more accessible site templates. I fear that
without these Zope will be missing a great opportunity to extend itself into
RealWorld web applications. It _has_ the capability but lacks the real
benefits in the zope community 2-way dialogue between content managers and
content presenters. The point of view is wonderful, but rather one sided.

 Zope is not to blame for what people have done with it on the visual side.
 Content is far more important than visual appeal.  I see too many
companies
 (many of my clients) ignoring this and focusing way too much on layout,
 placement of images, colors, cute JavaScript menus and other fancy stuff.
 I'm not saying these things are not at all important.  Browsing an
 unattractive, sloppily layed out site with lots of useful information is
 annoying and distracting.  But it's *far* better than browsing a fancy,
 "attractive" site that has nothing to offer other than sparse information,
 pretty images and slow viewing time.

Yes and Yes.
But be careful not to ignore the implications that the medium is [part of]
the message.
Style _is_  part of the content. Depends on who and what your audience is.
In so far as websites are [virtual] places, the look and feel of the
environment does matter.
Where people get carried away to either extreme they will surely fall off
those edges.

The invisible server-side aspects of sites will only be visible as
experienced functionality by end users.
But  the visible client-side is all they will ever touch. yin and yang.
How they fit together is where the magic lies.

It takes a diversity of talents and perspectives to make this work.
Content not style is a great mantra - but it leads to content without style
[and vice versa] and who wants that?

I did not say it had to be complex or excessive.. Less is more and much
harder to design often.
The problem is that to achieve good minimal design requires a lot of
iterations. People are looking for new interface paradigms and also better
tools to allow them to find them, and subsequently explore them when they
do.

This means tools with the flexibility of zope but not in it its present
state of awareness.

 It's the site designers.  Zope isn't designed for assistance in creating
 attractive sites.  It's designed for creating manageable sites.  It's
 completely up to the designers to make it attractive, using tools designed
 to do so.  Zope (in my experience) does nothing to limit the ability to
make
 a site attractive, but it does do buckets for increasing manageability.

Yes. I quite agree..But why are there no attractive Zope sites?

My argument is that zope does nothing to HELP one's ability to make a site
attractive.
Actually it does limit one's ability. for example look at even the syntax
for making an image object borderless? it aunt obvious.. and it could/should
be part of the image object properties

--or how about a rollover button.. Yes that is a JavaScript problem perhaps,
but what about including that as a BASIC feature of modern websites. But
imagine if that alone was made easier by zope.
Navigation bar objects would be another big plus.
Or how about a web page 'Table object' which made allowed one rapidly to
group and include other zope object in a useful and productive way.

This is not gratuitous graphics this is stuff 

[Zope] Looking for Zope vs. Others at-a-glance comparison

2000-09-09 Thread Jason Cunliffe

Hello

I need to present the arguments for why we haev chosen Zope vs. Others.

Does anyone know of a clear at-a-glance table or anything with the main
contenders, features, price, licensing etc.

Thanks
- Jason

Jason CUNLIFFE = NOMADICS.(Interactive Art and Technology).Design Director



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Re: [Zope] Looking for Zope vs. Others at-a-glance comparison

2000-09-09 Thread Nils Kassube

Jason Cunliffe wrote:

 I need to present the arguments for why we haev chosen Zope vs. Others. 
 Does anyone know of a clear at-a-glance table or anything with the main
 contenders, features, price, licensing etc.

You didn't collect this data _before_ choosing Zope? :-)

Cheers,
Nils
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Re: [Zope] Looking for Zope vs. Others at-a-glance comparison

2000-09-09 Thread Jason Cunliffe

  I need to present the arguments for why we haev chosen Zope vs. Others.
  Does anyone know of a clear at-a-glance table or anything with the main
  contenders, features, price, licensing etc.

 You didn't collect this data _before_ choosing Zope? :-)

lol

not really.. back then it seemed obvious to me why to try zope what's
interesting about it:

zope_pros = ['idea', 'free', 'openSource', 'Zserver', 'ZODB', 'x-platform',
'persistence',
'python', 'DTML', 'community', 'zopezen', 'scale and scope', 'easy install',
'External Methods', '.zexp files']

and what's to watch out for
zope_cons = ['DTML', 'documentation', 'lack of books', 'lack of demonstrable
large
commercial or cool sites', 'lack of  visual design sense' 'versionitis',
'zopezen', 'learning curve', 'DTML interface/edit-test cycle']

...to be clearer in a wide context

As I see it these are the alternative choices:

name
- Zope
- ColdFusion
- ASP
- Roxen
- Vignette
- AOLserver/ArsDigita
- Manila ?

Do you agree?
What's missing?

For each of above I'd like to fill in the following:

{'name':"name", 'features':{feature dict},'pro':[pros],
'con':[cons] }

where

feature dict = {'OS': [], 'Xplatform':[], 'cost':[] , 'sourcecode':[],
'license':[], 'openSource':[]
'version':[],  'scriptinglanguages':[], 'DBconnectivity':[] )

Any takers?

If was more adept in DTML was I could put up a comparative poll page though
I suspect most here would respond like you Nils.

cheers
- Jason



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