Re: [Zope] Tools used for programming Zope

2001-01-19 Thread Chris Withers

Jonothan Farr wrote:
 
  do an xml export. You can save cvs that to your hearts content.
 
  ... but then I'll have to forego readability, edit-ability, etc.
 
  Frankly, I'm a little surprised that this isn't a problem for more people,
 
 I'll wager that it is a problem for lots of people but you don't hear from them
 here. They've already moved on to other solutions. I know a few who were
 completely put off by not being able to grep through the code. 

Well, I get around this by keeping the code in Python Products as much as
possible (nice and CVS friendly) and just using TTW stuff for customisation.

cheers,

Chris

___
Zope maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
**   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - 
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )




Re: [Zope] Tools used for programming Zope

2001-01-19 Thread Stephane Bortzmeyer

On Thursday 18 January 2001, at 18 h 40, the keyboard of Gerald Gutierrez 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Frankly, I'm a little surprised that this isn't a problem for more people, 
 given the drawbacks of having to give up many of the existing tools, having 
 the application server only be able to export in a proprietary format, and 
 being bound to the application server for so many development-related 
 tasks. It's impossible to do a simple grep through the code, for example ...

I agree it is one of the MAIN problems with Zope. You have my support. A good way to 
have a read-write (at least a readonly) view of the ZODB would change things a lot. 


___
Zope maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
**   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - 
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )




Re: [Zope] Tools used for programming Zope

2001-01-19 Thread Erik Enge

On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Chris Withers wrote:

 Well, I get around this by keeping the code in Python Products as much as
 possible (nice and CVS friendly) and just using TTW stuff for customisation.

That's the same thing as I do.  What about you other people, are you
actually doing serious application development in ZClasses?  Maybe it's
just me, but that doesn't seem very Zopish to me.  However, I do agree
that people tend to do ZClass development before going to Python Products,
and since the (in my opinion) worst solution is chosen first, some of the
less subborn ones might abandon Zope.

However, I'm not quite sure I consider that a problem.  Not with Itamars
Guide anyway :).

Happy Zoping!


___
Zope maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
**   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - 
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )




Re: [Zope] Tools used for programming Zope

2001-01-19 Thread Steve Spicklemire


In it's current released form ZCVSMixin really does help with
a lot of the configuration/process problems in developing 
with Zope. You can still 'grep' for stuff, and it is
possible to perform simple edits in the xml representation
without much fear of actually breaking anything (it's pretty
obvious where the text of a method is stored etc.. ).  However I
have not really found this necessary. We use ZCVSMixin all
the time, and (almost) never touch the filesystem directly.

1) Each developer works in their own Zope, with their
own local 'checkout' of the project (many projects
involve both instantiated Zope objects, and Python Product
source code, all of which are managed in CVS). 

2) When you are 'editing' a Zope object you use 
an editor that knows about FTP (e.g., emacs), WebDAV or
a web browser.

3) You can use the 'normal' CVS process (update, modify, checkin). 

4) You can still do sensible 'diffs' on the xml representation
and get a pretty good idea about what's happening.

5) It's easy to set up a 'test' Zope, and a 'live' Zope each of which
also has access to CVS. Periodically we update the 'test' Zope and let
users bang away at it looking for bugs.  When we're ready for an
update to the live server we checkin our code tag it... (you can still
use the filesystem CVS commands to tag versions recursively!) and then
update the live server (inside a Zope Version) to that tag. When we
save the Zope version we are fully updated. You still need to 'know too 
much' to use this process effectively, but, it is a pretty workable
process, especially for a site that is constantly evolving (are
there sites out there that *don't* constantly evolve?)

It has also turned out that we occasionally need to make a 
*really* simple change on the live server... (there is no
way this could possibly break anything... so I'll just change
it!). As silly as that sounds.. it happens. It's nice to know
that we can simply check that change in.. and know that all
the developers will get it.. even though they are working
on different systems.

There are still a few annoying bugs, and there are several major
issues that need to be addressed:

http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Proposals/SynchronizationMechanismZCVSMixin

I'm hoping to "get some time" soon to address some of these things.
In the mean time... it's probably worth a look.

-steve

 "GG" == Gerald Gutierrez [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

GG At 02:37 PM 1/18/2001 -0600, you wrote:

 do an xml export. You can save cvs that to your hearts content.

GG ... but then I'll have to forego readability, edit-ability,
GG etc.

GG Frankly, I'm a little surprised that this isn't a problem for
GG more people, given the drawbacks of having to give up many of
GG the existing tools, having the application server only be able
GG to export in a proprietary format, and being bound to the
GG application server for so many development-related tasks. It's
GG impossible to do a simple grep through the code, for example
GG ...

GG I'm trying to reconcile this, as you might see, because I want
GG to use Zope but am having a hard time making it work for me.

GG Gerald.


___
Zope maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
**   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - 
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )




Re: [Zope] Tools used for programming Zope

2001-01-19 Thread Mario Valente

At 09:49 1/19/01 +0100, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
On Thursday 18 January 2001, at 18 h 40, the keyboard of Gerald Gutierrez 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Frankly, I'm a little surprised that this isn't a problem for more people, 
 given the drawbacks of having to give up many of the existing tools,
having 
 the application server only be able to export in a proprietary format, and 
 being bound to the application server for so many development-related 
 tasks. It's impossible to do a simple grep through the code, for example
...

I agree it is one of the MAIN problems with Zope. You have my support. A
good way to have a read-write (at least a readonly) view of the ZODB would
change things a lot. 


  I think that a good way would be to have a new Storage available: something
 that stored ZODB using the actual filesystem (directories, files, etc).

  A headstart is available at http://www.ppetru.net/software/index.html (
Directory
 Storage).


  If only it worked. :-(

  C U!

  -- Mario Valente


___
Zope maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
**   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - 
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )




Re: [Zope] Tools used for programming Zope

2001-01-18 Thread Chris Withers

Gerald Gutierrez wrote:
 
 So how do people go about programming Zope? What sorts of tools do people
 use, and how do you go about getting your code to and from Zope? Can you
 use CVS?

Look at the CVSMixing thign for this, nto sure how it works but it provides what
you want...

Apart from that, look at using an FTP or WebDAV enabled editor like DreamWeaver.
It works now, but support is supposed to be getting better in Zope 2.3

cheers,

Chris

___
Zope maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
**   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - 
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )




Re: [Zope] Tools used for programming Zope

2001-01-18 Thread Ragnar Beer

Can Dreamweaver also use the https protocol for WebDAVing?

Ragnar

Apart from that, look at using an FTP or WebDAV enabled editor like 
DreamWeaver.
It works now, but support is supposed to be getting better in Zope 2.3

cheers,

Chris


___
Zope maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
**   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - 
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )




Re: [Zope] Tools used for programming Zope

2001-01-18 Thread Gerald Gutierrez



Hello all.

Thanks to those who gave me feedback in terms of what tools they use to do 
Zope work. What I've gathered is that, while it is possible to do "remote 
editing" of certain objects like DTML and SQL methods, many Zope objects 
cannot be edited this way and must be done over the web.

I need to have source code readable on the filesystem independent of a Zope 
server, so that I can do things like CVS them, use any editor on them, grep 
them, etc. It seems that my only choice is to write products in Python 
itself, instead of using the web interface of Zope, which is one of the 
cool features of Zope.

This is unfortunate. If only Zope supports a "filesystem-natural" mapping 
for its entire object model, this would be very cool indeed.


Thanks.

Gerald.


___
Zope maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
**   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - 
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )




Re: [Zope] Tools used for programming Zope

2001-01-18 Thread Ayhan Ergul

 I need to have source code readable on the filesystem independent of a
 Zope server, so that I can do things like CVS them, use any editor
 on them, grep them, etc. It seems that my only choice is to write
 products in Python itself, instead of using the web interface of Zope,
 which is one of the cool features of Zope

I just came accross a wintel utility ($) called webdrive
(http://www.webdrive.com) that could answer some of your needs like
grepping or using your editor of choice. It mounts an FTP/WebDAV server as
a drive in windows explorer. You can then edit the files with your tools,
etc. It would be of very limited use with CVS though. They have a 20-day
trial if you want to have a go at it.

Ayhan


___
Zope maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
**   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - 
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )




[Zope] Tools used for programming Zope

2001-01-18 Thread Spicklemire, Jerry

Gerald said:

 I need to have source code readable on the filesystem 
 independent of a Zope server, so that I can do things like CVS 
 them, use any editor on them, grep them, etc. It seems that my 
 only choice is to write products in Python itself, instead of 
 using the web interface of Zope, which is one of the cool 
 features of Zope.

The ZCVSMixin product makes it fairly simple to export any subset of a site,
import it locally, make changes, and reverse the process, with versioning of
all non-file system objects (which you can already handle via CVS) and
usable diffs for many object types.

 http://www.zope.org/Members/sspickle/ZCVSMixin

Later,
Jerry S

___
Zope maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
**   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - 
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )




RE: [Zope] Tools used for programming Zope

2001-01-18 Thread Gerald Gutierrez

At 02:37 PM 1/18/2001 -0600, you wrote:

do an xml export. You can save cvs that to your hearts content.

... but then I'll have to forego readability, edit-ability, etc.

Frankly, I'm a little surprised that this isn't a problem for more people, 
given the drawbacks of having to give up many of the existing tools, having 
the application server only be able to export in a proprietary format, and 
being bound to the application server for so many development-related 
tasks. It's impossible to do a simple grep through the code, for example ...

I'm trying to reconcile this, as you might see, because I want to use Zope 
but am having a hard time making it work for me.

Gerald.


___
Zope maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
**   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - 
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )




Re: [Zope] Tools used for programming Zope

2001-01-18 Thread Jonothan Farr

 do an xml export. You can save cvs that to your hearts content.

 ... but then I'll have to forego readability, edit-ability, etc.

 Frankly, I'm a little surprised that this isn't a problem for more people,

I'll wager that it is a problem for lots of people but you don't hear from them
here. They've already moved on to other solutions. I know a few who were
completely put off by not being able to grep through the code. It's a problem
I'd love to be able to solve but so far it hasn't been solved by people far
smarter than me.

--jfarr



___
Zope maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
**   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - 
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )




[Zope] Tools used for programming Zope

2001-01-17 Thread Gerald Gutierrez


I recently looked into Zope in some detail and have decided that it's 
rather cool, with many features that you don't get from J2EE or ASP or PHP, 
etc. The Through-The-Web (TTW) aspect of it is interesting, and the 
documentation seems to infer that this is the direction Zope programming is 
going, with the use of ZClasses and other features.

Unfortunately, I'm a little turned off by the fact that you must edit many 
things using a web browser. For example, ZClasses were cool and easy to 
configure through the web, until I discovered that I can't recover the 
source to it as a source file that I can edit with something else. FSDump 
only does translation one-way to the filesystem and not back again. DTML 
can be FTP'ed to the server, but what a hassle this is.


So how do people go about programming Zope? What sorts of tools do people 
use, and how do you go about getting your code to and from Zope? Can you 
use CVS?


Thanks for any help with a newcomer.


Gerald.


___
Zope maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
**   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - 
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )




Re: [Zope] Tools used for programming Zope

2001-01-17 Thread Gines, Ron L.


So how do people go about programming Zope? What sorts of tools do 
people use, and how do you go about getting your code to and from 
Zope? Can you  use CVS?

Attach to Zope using WebDav and away you go .





___
Zope maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
**   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - 
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )




RE: [Zope] Tools used for programming Zope

2001-01-17 Thread Gerald Gutierrez


Can you edit ZClasses and other objects with it, or is this only for DTML?

At 08:00 PM 1/17/2001 +0100, Max M wrote:
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
Gerald Gutierrez

 So how do people go about programming Zope? What sorts of tools do people
 use, and how do you go about getting your code to and from Zope? Can you
 use CVS?

I use UltraEdit which can load files from ftp so that I can edit them just
as a local file.

Lot's of editors has this feature.

I do look forward to better webdav support from DreamWeaver though. That's
gonna be great.

regards Max M

Max M. W. Rasmussen,Denmark.   New Media Director
private: [EMAIL PROTECTED] work: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
Specialization is for insects.  -  Robert A. Heinlein


___
Zope maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
**   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - 
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )




Re: [Zope] Tools used for programming Zope

2001-01-17 Thread Chris Withers

Both WebDAV and FTP support are supposed to be better in 2.3 with full
WebDAV level 2 compliance at some point in the future...

What ever happened to Zope supporting SOAP?

cheers,

Chris



___
Zope maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
**   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - 
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )




Re: [Zope] Tools used for programming Zope

2001-01-17 Thread Geoffrey L. Wright

"Chris Withers" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Both WebDAV and FTP support are supposed to be better in 2.3 with full
 WebDAV level 2 compliance at some point in the future...

I wonder if I can use emacs/efs with 2.3 w/out crashing it..?  Right
now when I try to use xemacs/efs with Zope 2.2.x, it occasionally
brings down Zope(!).

I guess it's time to download and test...


//glw


___
Zope maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
**   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - 
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )