Re: [Zope-dev] Versions: should they die?

2003-06-05 Thread Toby Dickenson
On Wednesday 04 June 2003 17:40, Brad Clements wrote:
 Sorry if is OT.

 I'd like ZODB and Zope to support Revisions. That is, historical copies
 that do not get removed when ZODB is packed.

DirectoryStorage allows you to designate classes that should have all their 
history kept indefinitely. That may not have the flexibility that you need...

 Does the Version mechanism contribute to this kind of functionality? I'd
 like to be able to tag revisions of wiki pages and other documents, and
 then be able to diff them later without having to create a special kind of
 product for each object type that I'd like to use revisions for.

The accepted wisdom is that feature like this should be implemented in the 
application, above zodb. This has come up a few times on zodb-dev list.


-- 
Toby Dickenson
http://www.geminidataloggers.com/people/tdickenson

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Re: [Zope-dev] Versions: should they die?

2003-06-05 Thread Oliver Bleutgen
Anthony Baxter wrote:
Oliver Bleutgen wrote
As you and Guido are talking about the ZMI (which means, AFAIK, the 
managament interface), let me just say that as far as I understand it, 
deprecating/marking-as-evil and even removing OFSP/Version.py is not 
what I would like to see happen (not only).

The problem lies in ZODB.ZApplication.ZApplicationWrapper

 def __bobo_traverse__(self, REQUEST=None, name=None):
db, aname, version_support = self._stuff
if version_support is not None and REQUEST is not None:
version=REQUEST.get(version_support,'')
else: version=''
conn=db.open(version)
  ...
As I understand it, even if the Version product is removed, just putting 
at variable named 'Zope-Version' into the REQUEST will cause reads and 
writes to happen in a version.
Am I missing something here?


I think that will only work if there's a Version with the specified name.


Have you tried it? I have (with cookies), and it works always.
Oh, and for added fun set a persistent cookie.
cheers,
oliver


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Re: [Zope-dev] Versions: should they die?

2003-06-05 Thread Lennart Regebro
Brad Clements wrote:
Sorry if is OT.

I'd like ZODB and Zope to support Revisions. That is, historical copies that do not get 
removed when ZODB is packed.

Does the Version mechanism contribute to this kind of functionality?
No, not really. Maybe it can be coached into doing it, but not without 
much ado.

Maybe this is kind of the reverse way of doing what versions are for. We have used 
versions a little to work on a live site. 
That seems to be the only use for it, being able to make several updates 
on a site without the updates being seen. It's not a bad feature, but 
it's too limited for much of the use, where you instead want revisions 
of objects and workflows where you can stage the piublishing of 
different revisions. And for doing that you have no use of the ZODB 
versions at all, as they are done today. You are better off using 
multiple instances of the objects, one for each revision, and then 
creating a staging workflow with DCWorkflow.

So, I could continue to use ZMI as normal, but run another zserver on a different 
port (the one that feeds the world) with a particular revision. Or I could do this with 
ZEO.

Probably there's too much overhead in this idea. 
Well, it's too much overhead in doing it with ZODB, yes.



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[Zope-dev] Login problems

2003-06-05 Thread nagendra prasad
Hi,
We have installed zope-2.6.2b2-1.i386.rpm downloaded
from zope.org.
we have used red-carpet (ximian product) to install 
the zope on red hat 8 linux .
But we r unable to login, coz, redcarpet takes care of
the complete installation process, including the
choice of uname  pwd.
We have followed the steps in security.txt  the
details in
http://www.zope.org/Documentation/Books/ZopeBook/current/Security.stx
 
HOw ever , we are unable to login. We are also unable
to find either inituser or access file in zope's root
folder.
Plz help us to resolve this.
Thanks
Prasad


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[Zope-dev] DBtab and BDBStorage

2003-06-05 Thread Andrew R. Halko
Hello Fabio,

I read your post at:
http://zope.nipltd.com/public/lists/dev-archive.nsf/AGByKey/35A02E5C64B9
3519 about DBtab and BDBStorage.  I am interested in doing the same
thing.  I have a Plone site that I expect to become very large and I
need to find some other solutions than ZODB and its 2GB limit.  Do you
think you could help me with figuring this out?  I have been reading
documentation, posts and everything else and am a little confused.  Here
are a few questions I have from reading your post.

1. What did you need to install to make this work and did you do it
after you already had a Plone/Zope site going?
2. What is the code that goes in DBtab.conf, I read through it about 10
times and can't understand how I need to set it up?
3. Do you have to create a new DB manually every time you want to
separate info, is there no way to setup so that it dynamically adds as
you need space.
4. I read a little on BerkleyDB Storage, does that give more space than
ZODB?

Thanks for any help on this that you can give.  There should be a
tutorial on this somewhere; it seems like something a lot of people
would be interested in.  A 2GB limit is just horrible.  Thanks!

Andrew R. Halko



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RE: [Zope-dev] Versions: should they die?

2003-06-05 Thread sean . upton
If I remember correctly, though, there was still a lot in question about
legitimate use cases.  The web-services cluster-safety use-case I sketched
out here (http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope3-dev/2002-October/003112.html)
is still (perhaps) a valid case, but ONLY in a very-carefully constructed
application (and even that case leaves me wanting a better app-level way to
do it).

I think I agree with the feeling that versions should stay in ZODB, but be
depreciated/marked as official evil in ZMI.

Sean

 -Original Message-
 From: Guido van Rossum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 5:08 PM
 To: Paul Winkler
 Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Versions: should they die?
 
 
  To anyone not following the Problem committing  zope 
 'version' objects
  thread on [EMAIL PROTECTED]:  It's been proposed that Versions should be
  at least stamped in the ZMI with big warnings, or possibly disabled
  altogether.  Numerous users have been bit by the fact that versions
  basically do not work as advertised, leading in various 
 cases to zodb 
  corruption or work that can't be saved.  There are other 
 security issues
  that Oliver Bleutgen raised privately which I won't state here.
  
  Comments?  Could we get at least some warnings in the ZMI before
  2.6.2 final?
 
 IMO versions do nothing except complexify the code.  I believe it's an
 official Zope Corp position to discourage them for new projects.  Yet
 Jeremy Hylton seems to think that they are somehow useful and has
 carefully preserved them in ZODB 4 (== Zope 3).  If it were up to me,
 they would have been gone, with a big helping of YAGNI!
 
 --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
 
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Re: [Zope-dev] Versions: should they die?

2003-06-05 Thread Brad Clements
Sorry if is OT.

I'd like ZODB and Zope to support Revisions. That is, historical copies that do not 
get 
removed when ZODB is packed.

Does the Version mechanism contribute to this kind of functionality? I'd like to be 
able to tag revisions of wiki pages and other documents, and then be able to diff 
them later without having to create a special kind of product for each object type 
that 
I'd like to use revisions for.

Maybe this is kind of the reverse way of doing what versions are for. We have used 
versions a little to work on a live site. 


What would be interesting is using revisions (with tags), then telling Zope to serve 
only objects with this revision or older, or the current object if no revisions are 
on 
file for that object. And .. the serving up of a particular tag would be set on a 
Zserver 
instance.

So, I could continue to use ZMI as normal, but run another zserver on a different 
port (the one that feeds the world) with a particular revision. Or I could do this 
with 
ZEO.

Probably there's too much overhead in this idea. 








-- 
Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED]   (315)268-1000
http://www.murkworks.com  (315)268-9812 Fax
http://www.wecanstopspam.org/   AOL-IM: BKClements


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Re: [Zope-dev] Versions: should they die?

2003-06-05 Thread Oliver Bleutgen
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If I remember correctly, though, there was still a lot in question about
legitimate use cases.  The web-services cluster-safety use-case I sketched
out here (http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope3-dev/2002-October/003112.html)
is still (perhaps) a valid case, but ONLY in a very-carefully constructed
application (and even that case leaves me wanting a better app-level way to
do it).
I think I agree with the feeling that versions should stay in ZODB, but be
depreciated/marked as official evil in ZMI.
As you and Guido are talking about the ZMI (which means, AFAIK, the 
managament interface), let me just say that as far as I understand it, 
deprecating/marking-as-evil and even removing OFSP/Version.py is not 
what I would like to see happen (not only).

The problem lies in ZODB.ZApplication.ZApplicationWrapper

 def __bobo_traverse__(self, REQUEST=None, name=None):
db, aname, version_support = self._stuff
if version_support is not None and REQUEST is not None:
version=REQUEST.get(version_support,'')
else: version=''
conn=db.open(version)
  ...
As I understand it, even if the Version product is removed, just putting 
at variable named 'Zope-Version' into the REQUEST will cause reads and 
writes to happen in a version.
Am I missing something here?

cheers,
oliver
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[Zope-dev] R: DBtab and BDBStorage

2003-06-05 Thread Fabio Paracchini
Hi Andrew,
   here are the answers:

-Messaggio originale-
Da: Andrew R. Halko [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Inviato: mercoledì 4 giugno 2003 17.02
A: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Oggetto: DBtab and BDBStorage


Hello Fabio,

I read your post at:
http://zope.nipltd.com/public/lists/dev-archive.nsf/AGByKey/35A02E5C64B9
3519 about DBtab and BDBStorage.  I am interested in doing the same
thing.  I have a Plone site that I expect to become very large and I
need to find some other solutions than ZODB and its 2GB limit.  Do you
think you could help me with figuring this out?  I have been reading
documentation, posts and everything else and am a little confused.  Here
are a few questions I have from reading your post.

1. What did you need to install to make this work and did you do it
after you already had a Plone/Zope site going?

There is a document at
http://plone.org/Members/fparacchini/Document.2003-02-14.0631 that explains
what you need and what you have to do.

It was last updated mid-February, so now there can be later versions of
pyBSDDB3 and DBTab. Be careful that the right combination of Python
2.1.x/pyBSDDB3/ZODB has to be carefully checked. I got results with  the
versions specified in that document, your mileage may vary ;)

2. What is the code that goes in DBtab.conf, I read through it about 10
times and can't understand how I need to set it up?

In DBTab.conf you have to specify a Storage that goes on BDB and a Database
that is mounted on a Zope path.

For example, to have the whole site on BDB the very basic configuration is:

[Database: Main-BDB]
mount_paths=/
open_at_startup=1

[Storage: Main-BDB]
type=BDBFullStorage

This way you'll create a directory below zope/Data/var called Main-BDB,
that contains a Berkeley DB with logs.

3. Do you have to create a new DB manually every time you want to
separate info, is there no way to setup so that it dynamically adds as
you need space.

Well, you can also add a storage later. The procedure is a bit involved but
not so much:

- I suppose you already have a working DBTab configuration, like the one
specified before :)

- Create a folder in Zope/Plone where you will put your data, e.g. '/Docs'

- Shutdown Zope/Plone

- Copy the whole data directory (in the example before, it should be in
C:\program files\plone\data\var\Main-BDB, copy it in C:\program
files\plone\data\var\Docs-BDB)

- Edit DBTab.conf, and add a Storage and a Database like this:

[Database: Docs-BDB]
mount_paths=/Docs
open_at_startup=1

[Storage: Docs-BDB]
type=BDBFullStorage

- Start Zope/Plone

- from management interface, delete folder /Docs

- from management interface, create a new 'DBTab mount point'

that should be enough: your /Docs folder should be in the new database,
where it grows independently from the rest of the system. Check filesizes on
both directory, to be sure that everything works.

I just have to thank once again Shane Hathaway, for the countless answers on
this topic.

I also migrated one DB from FileStorage to BDBStorage, the python script I
used, launched directly from python interpreter and not from Zope is like
this:

from ZODB.FileStorage import FileStorage
from BDBStorage.BDBFullStorage import BDBFullStorage

DBSrc = FileStorage( 'C:\temp\Data.fs', read_only=1)
DBDst = BDBFullStorage( 'C:\temp\BDB-Data' )

DBDst.copyTransactionsFrom( DBSrc )

DBSrc.close()
DBDst.close()

You can also mix different database flavours, thanks to DBTab. In my
configuration I keep 'main' database on FileStorage, to make it faster and
easier to administer, and I created a couple of different DBs with BDB for
folders '/Customers' and '/Members'.

4. I read a little on BerkleyDB Storage, does that give more space than
ZODB?

Yes, you no longer have a 2Gb limit, as in ZODB (at least this is true on
every platform, to be honest I don't know if on Linux/Unix you can overcome
this limit also with ZODB).

Thanks for any help on this that you can give.  There should be a
tutorial on this somewhere; it seems like something a lot of people
would be interested in.  A 2GB limit is just horrible.  Thanks!

Andrew R. Halko

I hope that this helps, let me know if you have more suggestions.

Ciao
Fabio

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Re: [Zope-dev] Versions: should they die?

2003-06-05 Thread Terry Hancock
Can I, a humble Zope product developer, please make
 a plea that anything marked as an 'official evil' be made
as invisible as possible?  (I.e. that you make it disappear
unless specifically configured as an option, as was
suggested up-thread).

Zope is already full of deprecated methods that make
learning the one obvious way to do it very hard to figure out.

The refrain on the ML and in other places is if the
documentation isn't good enough, 'use the Source, Luke',
but have you actually looked at the source?  Sorry, I know
you have -- but please try to imagine what it looks like to a
newcomer who doesn't know their way around like you do.

We already have same-named objects defined in multiple
places -- are they really all the same object?  Are they
different implementations of the same object?  Are they
actually just imports from one module to another?  Are
they overloaded with additional functionality?  

Also lots of similar objects -- should I use Item or SimpleItem. 
Should I inherit stuff from Globals or from the files they are
actually defined in?

It is an important point of information architecture that
signs to the user must be graded in order to be most
useful -- many signs with the same apparent importance
are confusing, and may be worse than no signs at all.

Also, whereas you, who are intimately familiar with
evolutionary history of Zope's source may be completely
aware of what's old and what's new, the newbie developer
has little way to determine this.  I can look at file dates, and
occasionally I can find notes explaining this in the comments. 
But too often developers say something along the lines of 
this is the new improved way to do X. But when did they
write that?  Last month?  A year ago? Longer?

I recognize that you all have made steps in this direction
for Zope 3 (such as the interface/components concept,
which IMHO is a big improvement).

Reducing confusion should be a big priority, I hope. And
what you don't say is just as good as what you do. Minimalism
seems very pythonic to me. ;-)

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,
Terry

On Wednesday 04 June 2003 09:21 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 If I remember correctly, though, there was still a lot in question about
 legitimate use cases.  The web-services cluster-safety use-case I sketched
 out here (http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope3-dev/2002-October/003112.html)
 is still (perhaps) a valid case, but ONLY in a very-carefully constructed
 application (and even that case leaves me wanting a better app-level way to
 do it).
 
 I think I agree with the feeling that versions should stay in ZODB, but be
 depreciated/marked as official evil in ZMI.
 
 Sean
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Guido van Rossum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
   To anyone not following the Problem committing  zope 
  'version' objects
   thread on [EMAIL PROTECTED]:  It's been proposed that Versions should be
   at least stamped in the ZMI with big warnings, or possibly disabled
   altogether.  Numerous users have been bit by the fact that versions
   basically do not work as advertised, leading in various 
  cases to zodb 
   corruption or work that can't be saved.  There are other 
  security issues
   that Oliver Bleutgen raised privately which I won't state here.
   
   Comments?  Could we get at least some warnings in the ZMI before
   2.6.2 final?
  
  IMO versions do nothing except complexify the code.  I believe it's an
  official Zope Corp position to discourage them for new projects.  Yet
  Jeremy Hylton seems to think that they are somehow useful and has
  carefully preserved them in ZODB 4 (== Zope 3).  If it were up to me,
  they would have been gone, with a big helping of YAGNI!
  
  --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

--
Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com )
Anansi Spaceworks  http://www.anansispaceworks.com

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[Zope-dev] problem locking up the db

2003-06-05 Thread chasee
Hi:

I got this error, when starting the Zope server again. I have had this problem before,then I found out there was another processing I did not kill still running the server. this time, I made sure I had no other processes that are running the server or making use of any files in Zope. Please help!

File /home/xxx/xxx/Zope-2.6.1/Zope-2.6.1-solaris-2.8-sparc/z2.py, line 582, in ? File /home/xxx/xxx/Zope-2.6.1/Zope-2.6.1-solaris-2.8-sparc/lib/python/Zope/__init__.py, line 46, in startup (Object: startup) File /home/xxx/xxx/Zope-2.6.1/Zope-2.6.1-solaris-2.8-sparc/lib/python/Zope/App/startup.py, line 51, in startup File /home/xxx/xxx/Zope-2.6.1/Zope-2.6.1-solaris-2.8-sparc/lib/python/ZODB/FileStorage.py, line 226, in __init__ File /home/xxx/xxx/Zope-2.6.1/Zope-2.6.1-solaris-2.8-sparc/lib/python/ZODB/lock_file.py, line 33, in lock_file
StorageSystemError: Could not lock the database file. There must beanother process that has opened the file.
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Re: [Zope-dev] Versions: should they die?

2003-06-05 Thread Dieter Maurer
Paul Winkler wrote at 2003-6-3 14:00 -0400:
  ...
  It's been proposed that Versions should be
  at least stamped in the ZMI with big warnings, or possibly disabled
  altogether.
  ...
  Comments?

-3

I like versions and use them from time to time to automically
install changes on life servers.
Without versions, I would need to work more often late at night
(when I usually read Zope mailing lists ;-) ).


Dieter

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[Zope-dev] problem locking up the db

2003-06-05 Thread chasee

Hi:

I got this error, when starting the Zope server again. I have had this problem before,then I found out there was another processing I did not kill still running the server. this time, I made sure I had no other processes that are running the server or making use of any files in Zope. Please help!

File /home/xxx/xxx/Zope-2.6.1/Zope-2.6.1-solaris-2.8-sparc/z2.py, line 582, in ? File /home/xxx/xxx/Zope-2.6.1/Zope-2.6.1-solaris-2.8-sparc/lib/python/Zope/__init__.py, line 46, in startup (Object: startup) File /home/xxx/xxx/Zope-2.6.1/Zope-2.6.1-solaris-2.8-sparc/lib/python/Zope/App/startup.py, line 51, in startup File /home/xxx/xxx/Zope-2.6.1/Zope-2.6.1-solaris-2.8-sparc/lib/python/ZODB/FileStorage.py, line 226, in __init__ File /home/xxx/xxx/Zope-2.6.1/Zope-2.6.1-solaris-2.8-sparc/lib/python/ZODB/lock_file.py, line 33, in lock_file
StorageSystemError: Could not lock the database file. There must beanother process that has opened the file.
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Re: [Zope-dev] problem locking up the db

2003-06-05 Thread Andreas Jung
Remove var/Data.fs.lock, restart Zope and promise to avoid cross-posts
in the future.
-aj

--On Mittwoch, 4. Juni 2003 11:37 Uhr -0700 chasee [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

Hi:

I got this error, when starting the Zope server again.  I have had this
problem before, then I found out there was another processing I did not
kill still running the server. this time,  I made sure I had no other
processes that are running the server or making use of any files in Zope.
Please help!
 File /home/xxx/xxx/Zope-2.6.1/Zope-2.6.1-solaris-2.8-sparc/z2.py, line
582, in ?   File
/home/xxx/xxx/Zope-2.6.1/Zope-2.6.1-solaris-2.8-sparc/lib/python/Zope/__i
nit__.py, line 46, in startup (Object: startup)
  File
/home/xxx/xxx/Zope-2.6.1/Zope-2.6.1-solaris-2.8-sparc/lib/python/Zope/App
/startup.py, line 51, in startup   File
/home/xxx/xxx/Zope-2.6.1/Zope-2.6.1-solaris-2.8-sparc/lib/python/ZODB/Fil
eStorage.py, line 226, in __init__   File
/home/xxx/xxx/Zope-2.6.1/Zope-2.6.1-solaris-2.8-sparc/lib/python/ZODB/loc
k_file.py, line 33, in lock_file
StorageSystemError: Could not lock the database file.  There must be
another process that has opened the file.


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[Zope-dev] Zpydoc

2003-06-05 Thread alan milligan
Guys,

As you may recall, I made a posting regarding this Zope-specific pydoc tool 
over a week ago.

Since then there has been half a dozen downloads, but I am yet to receive 
any feedback :(

I know that documentation is about as exciting as a really unexciting thing, 
but would like just five minutes from Zope Corporation (and anyone else 
whose interested...) to at least suggest this effort is misguided and/or has 
no place in the larger documentation framework of Python/Zope.

Again, you can have a quick spin on the demo at 
http://www.last-bastion.net/Zpydoc.

I look forward to a critique.

Regards, Alan

_
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Re: [Zope-dev] Zpydoc

2003-06-05 Thread Terry Hancock
On Wednesday 04 June 2003 03:04 pm, alan milligan wrote:
 As you may recall, I made a posting regarding this Zope-specific pydoc tool 
 over a week ago.

Um, maybe I'm out of line here, but over a week ago sounds
like a really short time ago.

 Since then there has been half a dozen downloads, but I am yet to receive 
 any feedback :(

Probably like me, they said oh cool, I want to try that out and
downloaded it right away, planning to check it out next time
they start tinkering with Zope.

 I know that documentation is about as exciting as a really unexciting thing, 
 but would like just five minutes from Zope Corporation (and anyone else 
 whose interested...) to at least suggest this effort is misguided and/or has 
 no place in the larger documentation framework of Python/Zope.

In general, you have to pay people if you want them to
come when called. ;-)

 Again, you can have a quick spin on the demo at 
 http://www.last-bastion.net/Zpydoc.
 
 I look forward to a critique.

The on-site demo looks cool.  I definitely think it is not misguided. In
fact, I have been looking for better ways to incorporate more
automatic documentation for my own product (for me as well as
for others), and adapting pydoc is one of the better ways to
achieve this.

If I may suggest a couple of similar things to check into --

Check out Dieter Maurer's DocFinder product, and also look into
the Interface python module shipped with Zope.  I would really
like to see Interface's introspection directly accessable from the
ZMI, since I am using interfaces as my primary method of 
documentation now.

Some of these things might be security problems in a production
environment, BTW -- I think it's important to bill this as a tool for
development servers (as is DocFinder and some other useful
products).

All in all, though, don't get too impatient -- people take time to
look into things, especially when we are unpaid with bill collectors
beating on our doors, so to speak. ;-)

Cheers,
Terry

--
Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com )
Anansi Spaceworks  http://www.anansispaceworks.com

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Re: [Zope-dev] Zpydoc

2003-06-05 Thread Terry Hancock
On Wednesday 04 June 2003 07:16 pm, alan milligan wrote:
 Personally, I am a bit sceptical about the whole Interface concept.  
 Fortunately because Python supports multiple inheritance, it's not like the 
 Java mechanism.  But it strikes me as being much too like the concept of a 
 pure abstract base class in C++. But the reality is that this almost never 
 happens, and it always seems like a good idea to start using this class for 
 common methods.  I do not have a problem with this and think that just 
 declaring a function gives you little benefit when you could provide a 
 definition as well - even a 'raise AssertionError, 'Implement me!'  seems 
 more useful :)

I think it depends on what they are used for.  In my situation, I am
defining objects that future 3rd party developers will likely have to
subclass. But what methods and attributes do I promise to keep,
and which do I plan to alter at need?  Also, the interface concept
allows me to specify what an object *behaves like* -- not what it
*is*.  Right now if I subclass from Folder, it isn't easy for me to tell this
with introspection -- I have to *know* that a Topic is just an extended
Zope folder.  Interfaces will allow me to simply say that Topic implements
a Folder interface.  Then it's easy to tell whether I can call certain
methods on it.  The metatype concept just isn't good enough for
this, and inspecting __bases__ is too complicated.  Anyway, what
if I *don't* subclass from Folder?  Maybe I just implement all the same
methods.  Interfaces lets me just say what it does in an unambiguous
way.  And since it's in the code, and there is a mechanism for checking
that the interface is implemented (in fact I'm thinking of building
in such a check into my installation process), this is a nice arrangement.

The thing to realize is that interfaces are self-checking documentation,
not code.

Well, so far, they seem really nice, anway.

Cheers,
Terry

--
Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com )
Anansi Spaceworks  http://www.anansispaceworks.com

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