[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Proposal: Rename zope package

2004-04-22 Thread Troy Farrell
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Please pardon my slowness to respond. Zope is (still) not (yet) my full-time occupation. Jim Fulton wrote: | Troy Farrell wrote: | | Philipp, not everyone follows well-planned, ideal upgrade practices. | | There's only so much we can do for people who

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-22 Thread Chris Withers
Stephan Richter wrote: Nobody is willing to contribute. ZC agreed to change zope.org to Plone so more community members can contribute. But noone has stepped up; that's very sad. Sorry, but I think you'll find several people stepped up, and ZC slapped them in the face with a big fat legal

[Zope-dev] Zope Book at ZopeWiki.org

2004-04-22 Thread Chris Withers
Andreas Jung wrote: Yeah...just had a look a zopewiki.org it seems to be a great place. I wonder why we were not able to built a such place there were it would belong to: zope.org? Indeed. I shall see if I can put some input there... Any chance ZopeWiki.org could become the master location for

[Zope-dev] Zope.org: legal problems?

2004-04-22 Thread Chris Withers
Jim Fulton wrote: - The zope.org community site is a mess. Lots of outstanding problems are not fixed, the performance of the site is more than poor (it takes ages to login, it takes ages to load pages), usability (e.g. when you perform a software release) is bad. Yes, that's a bad

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-22 Thread Max M
Chris Withers wrote: Andre Meyer wrote: With respect to CMS, Plone archetypes are too simplistic for complex data/document types and customisation takes too much effort. totally agree... I have the same experience. They keep refactoring how a single small (and relatively uninterresting)

[Zope-dev] Bug days?

2004-04-22 Thread Chris Withers
Lennart Regebro wrote: This means that we need more bugdays. A typical bugday squishes a whole bunch of bugs. They bugs will be harder to squish the more bugdays we have, since the easy one will be squished first, but no matter. Whatever happened to the plan to have a monthly bug day on the last

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-22 Thread Max M
Tim Peters wrote: [Max M] Or perhaps an automated nightly Windows build. [Stephan Richter] We have talked about it many times before, but simply lack the bandwidth. Maybe you could provide this for Cygwin? [Max M] Argh ... that wasn't fair. Ok I will try and find some time to look into it. A

Re: [Zope-dev] The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-22 Thread Chris Withers
Andre Meyer wrote: I have been developing for Zope for about half a year now and it took considerable effort to get anything going. I would suggest that's because you chose to use what are, imho, overly complex products ;-) With respect to CMS, Plone archetypes are too simplistic for complex

Re: [Zope-dev] Zope Book at ZopeWiki.org

2004-04-22 Thread Chris McDonough
On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 02:56, Chris Withers wrote: Any chance ZopeWiki.org could become the master location for the book? It's got a much nicer UI than Zope.org... Every few weeks or so I go and clean out (sometimes hundreds of) test and fglrldjksjds and you suck! comments in the BackTalk

Re: [Zope-dev] Zope Book at ZopeWiki.org

2004-04-22 Thread Lennart Regebro
From: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Any chance ZopeWiki.org could become the master location for the book? It's gonna be hard to get a printable book out of a Wiki... ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[Zope-dev] Re: Bug days?

2004-04-22 Thread Lennart Regebro
From: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Whatever happened to the plan to have a monthly bug day on the last monday of each month or somesuch? Nothing, as usual, I guess. Even since bugdays where first thought of, more of then and more regular bugdays have been promised, but it doesn't happen.

[Zope-dev] List of bugs which can be closed

2004-04-22 Thread Maik Jablonski
Hi, there are some bugs in the Zope-Collector which IMHO can be closed. Maybe someone with the appropriate rights has some spare time to check the links... Cheers, Maik Fixed, but not closed: http://zope.org/Collectors/Zope/1004 http://zope.org/Collectors/Zope/1096 Not Zope-Core-Problems:

[Zope-dev] [Q] Pickle support for C wrapper and ZEO

2004-04-22 Thread Ames Andreas (MPA/DF)
Hi all, I'm reposting here because I had no luck on [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm in the course of low-level wrapping the ODBC api. Just in case you wonder: I know of mxODBC and pyodbc, they don't fit my needs as well license-wise as technically (I want better metadata access, thread-safety etc.).

[Zope-dev] performance tuning of ZODB

2004-04-22 Thread Syver Enstad
I've used the cache_size paramter to the constructor of the DB to good effect. Are there any further gotchas for ensuring that the ZODB stays in memory as much as possible? ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[Zope-dev] List of bugs which can be closed

2004-04-22 Thread Clemens Robbenhaar
Maik Jablonski writes: Hi, there are some bugs in the Zope-Collector which IMHO can be closed. [...] Not up2date anymore: http://zope.org/Collectors/Zope/591 http://zope.org/Collectors/Zope/943 and: http://zope.org/Collectors/Zope/599 (if someone minds...) Cheers,

Re: [Zope-dev] performance tuning of ZODB

2004-04-22 Thread Toby Dickenson
On Thursday 22 April 2004 10:42, Syver Enstad wrote: I've used the cache_size paramter to the constructor of the DB to good effect. Are there any further gotchas for ensuring that the ZODB stays in memory as much as possible? Memory usage scales proportional to the number of threads. Reducing

[Zope-dev] Re: On a constructive note: Zope 2.8

2004-04-22 Thread Jim Fulton
Jim Fulton wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: Hey there, I understand from: http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/Zope2.8/MilestonePlan Zope 2.8 is now planned for june. This is, of course, a function of people's availability to help. I still need to fix ZClasses, and I need to get through

[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Proposal: Rename zope package

2004-04-22 Thread Jim Fulton
Troy Farrell wrote: ... I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade or slow the adoption of Zope 3. I, along with everyone here want to see this transition go smoothly. When the customer only notices the change due to new functionality, ease of use, or improved performance, then we will know that

Re: [Zope-dev] Zope Book at ZopeWiki.org

2004-04-22 Thread Stephan Richter
On Thursday 22 April 2004 03:31, Lennart Regebro wrote: Today 03:31:57 From: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Any chance ZopeWiki.org could become the master location for the book? It's gonna be hard to get a printable book out of a Wiki... I tried this and I can tell you that a Wiki is

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-22 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Jim Fulton wrote: 2. Especially Andreas expressed his worries about the current release policy in Zope 2 and its future regarding maintainance and support. I have to say that I share some of his skepticism regarding Zope 2. I personally have never fully understood ZC's reasons for the release

Zope3, CMS, IDEs (was: [Zope-dev] The bleak Future of Zope?)

2004-04-22 Thread Seb Bacon
Joachim Werner wrote: There are quite a few Zope-based CMS solutions out there, and most of them are better than their commercial counterparts in many respects. But if we had managed to start a joint CMS effort (other than CMF, which is a failure by design) two or three years ago things would

Re: [Zope-dev] performance tuning of ZODB

2004-04-22 Thread Syver Enstad
Toby Dickenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Thursday 22 April 2004 10:42, Syver Enstad wrote: I've used the cache_size paramter to the constructor of the DB to good effect. Are there any further gotchas for ensuring that the ZODB stays in memory as much as possible? Memory usage scales

Re: [Zope-dev] performance tuning of ZODB

2004-04-22 Thread Toby Dickenson
On Thursday 22 April 2004 11:43, Syver Enstad wrote: cache_deactivate_after sounds interesting. Since I am running ZODB in a web server I don't want the data to timeout and disappear from memory since every object I have should be loaded at all times. Thats why ZODB ignores that parameter now

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-22 Thread Martijn Faassen
Jim Fulton wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: I'm surprised to read this. Could you be more specific about your concerns? Did you read Andreas Jung's mail? He was pretty specific, but I had to hunt around as in my mailreader his reply had broken the thread. I was responding to

[Zope-dev] Re: Proposal: Rename zope package

2004-04-22 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Jim Fulton wrote: Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: Why would they switch to Zope 2.8 if not for the component architecture? To stay current? To get MVCC? To get new-style extension classes, and thus access to many modern Python features. Later releases will provide benefits beyond just the Z3

[Zope-dev] Re: Zope Book at ZopeWiki.org

2004-04-22 Thread Fred Yankowski
On Thu, Apr 22, 2004 at 06:07:10AM -0400, Stephan Richter wrote: I tried this and I can tell you that a Wiki is not the right format for a book. While it lowers the entrance points, it is far too simplistic. I eventually changed my master to LaTeX, where I can add as much meta-data and

[Zope-dev] Re: On a constructive note: Zope 2.8

2004-04-22 Thread Martijn Faassen
Jim Fulton wrote: Have interfaces stabilized enough to start this work, or should I wait until next month (may is indicated on the planning). I think so. You think I can start now or you think I should wait? :) What steps need to be taken concretely before such integration is considered

[Zope-dev] Re: Zope3, CMS, IDEs (was: The bleak Future of Zope?)

2004-04-22 Thread Paul Everitt
On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:15:58 +0100, Seb Bacon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joachim Werner wrote: There are quite a few Zope-based CMS solutions out there, and most of them are better than their commercial counterparts in many respects. But if we had managed to start a joint CMS effort (other than

Re: [Zope-dev] [Q] Pickle support for C wrapper and ZEO

2004-04-22 Thread Ames Andreas (MPA/DF)
Hello Martin, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Martin Kretschmar) writes: putting this back on list, hope it's ok with you. Hello, I was once debugging an application which usually crashed after 2-3 days during load tests. It was doing a lot of database operations. The access was to a Microsoft SQL

[Zope-dev] Re: On a constructive note: Zope 2.8

2004-04-22 Thread Martijn Faassen
Jim Fulton wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: this could fit fairly well with my own (also delayed :) plans for using this facility in Silva. The obvious area I could try to contribute is in integrating Zope 3 interfaces in Zope 2. I meant to mention that Kapil has offered to work on this. I suggest you

AW: [Zope-dev] Re: Zope3, CMS, IDEs (was: The bleak Future of Zope?)

2004-04-22 Thread Roger ineichen
Paul Everitt wrote On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:15:58 +0100, Seb Bacon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joachim Werner wrote: There are quite a few Zope-based CMS solutions out there, and most of them are better than their commercial counterparts in many respects. But if we had managed to

[Zope-dev] Zope Bug Day Next Thursday (April 29)

2004-04-22 Thread Casey Duncan
I proposed this yesterday, but I wanted to make sure that everyone say it. I think we should have a bug day, we're long overdue. I'm proposing we hold it on Thursday, April 29. We'll convene on the #zope-dev irc channel. -Casey ___ Zope-Dev maillist

[Zope-dev] Re: Proposal: Rename zope package

2004-04-22 Thread Jim Fulton
Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: Why would they switch to Zope 2.8 if not for the component architecture? To stay current? To get MVCC? To get new-style extension classes, and thus access to many modern Python features. Later releases will

[Zope-dev] Reflections on the Zope 2 to Zope 3 transition

2004-04-22 Thread Jim Fulton
Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: 2. Especially Andreas expressed his worries about the current release policy in Zope 2 and its future regarding maintainance and support. I have to say that I share some of his skepticism regarding Zope 2. I personally have never fully

RE: [Zope-dev] Reflections on the Zope 2 to Zope 3 transition

2004-04-22 Thread Jean-Francois . Doyon
I know I'm new here, but I think this may work to my benefit in this case ... +1 on everything Jim just said! Unlike some others it seems, I look at Zope almost uniquely as framework for building web applications. An API or SDK if you will. As such, I think it's internal software desing and

Re: [Zope-dev] performance tuning of ZODB

2004-04-22 Thread Syver Enstad
Toby Dickenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Thursday 22 April 2004 11:43, Syver Enstad wrote: cache_deactivate_after sounds interesting. Since I am running ZODB in a web server I don't want the data to timeout and disappear from memory since every object I have should be loaded at all

RE: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-22 Thread Tim Peters
http://zope.org/Members/tim_one/Zope2-20040422.zip/file_view and let us know what happens! As the comment there says, it's just .pyd files from Zope2 HEAD, compiled with MSVC 6. This is from an inplace (setup.py build_ext -i) build on Windows, from a current Zope HEAD checkout. As far as I

RE: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-22 Thread Tim Peters
[Tim Peters] ... No way to tell without trying. I don't know whether you're building Zope2 or Zope3, but since this is the zope-dev list I assume the former. Try http://zope.org/Members/tim_one/Zope2-20040422.zip/file_view and let us know what happens! As the comment there says

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-22 Thread Simon Michael
What a great discussion. I'm not sure I can catch up and make a single coherent reply, so I'll just drop this into the stew right here: I think Zope 3 is firmly on the right track. At the same time let us not forget the ideas around http://www.dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html .

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-22 Thread Simon Michael
Casey Duncan wrote: On a bright note, I think zopewiki.org could change that. It *greatly* lowers the bar on contributing That is exactly the intent. We have needed this since the days of the ZDP. I see no reason why it being or not being on Zope.org is relevant. Its a social thing: Simon

Re: Zope3, CMS, IDEs (was: [Zope-dev] The bleak Future of Zope?)

2004-04-22 Thread Joachim Werner
Hi! It would be great to start something like a Zope3 CMS interest group up, to pool all our CMS experience - start collecting requirements, etc. Seems like a mighty large task, though :-) I've proposed that a couple of times already. There are two problems in real life: 1)

[Zope-dev] Re: Zope3, CMS, IDEs

2004-04-22 Thread Dario Lopez-Kästen
Joachim Werner wrote: [Seb Bacon wrote:] I disagree that performance is a problem in Zope 2. With a combination of profiling to eliminate bottlenecks, ZEO, and Squid, Zope hums along beautifully. We are consulting for a company that is in the process of replacing their Java front-end

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: zLOG changes

2004-04-22 Thread Fred Drake
I wrote: - In debug mode, add a new handler that dumps to standard output. This is fairly easy to code, but is inflexible. Andreas responded: But flexible enough for most usecase. The point is that you want to see the tracebacks on the console during the development phase. Watching the

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: zLOG changes

2004-04-22 Thread Fred Drake
On Wednesday 21 April 2004 04:48 am, Chris Withers wrote: I'm guessing there is some kind of log-to-console logger already? If so, why not just add that in zope.conf and comment it out when you move to production? That would work for me, but not everyone at ZC agreed, so I've made some

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-22 Thread Dieter Maurer
Jim Fulton wrote at 2004-4-21 11:39 -0400: Andreas Jung wrote: ... I am sure that more are willing to contribute more than at the moment. Great! Where are they? I, for example, would but I am scared away by the required promise to defend ZC against any potential patent claim related to my

Re: [Zope-dev] The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-22 Thread Dieter Maurer
Terry Hancock wrote at 2004-4-21 09:39 -0500: ... I've been developing an application, which has taken about two years, largely because developing in the Zope 2 Framework model is like beating your head against the wall constantly. That's probably because I'm writing a fundamentally complex web

Re: [Zope-dev] The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-22 Thread Dieter Maurer
Joachim Werner wrote at 2004-4-21 21:24 +0200: ... Believe me or not, almost everything gets more complicated with CMF/Plone than with plain Zope. I do not believe you. We have used CMF (mostly the SkinsTool, the ActionsTool and DCWorkflow) very successfully to build * an editorial system

Re: [Zope-dev] [Q] Pickle support for C wrapper and ZEO

2004-04-22 Thread Dieter Maurer
Ames Andreas (MPA/DF) wrote at 2004-4-22 11:07 +0200: ... The ODBC api is object-based and exhibits four object types: environment, connection, statement and descriptor objects each of which has a set of methods and properties. Pickle-wise I'm not so concerned about persistence across

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-22 Thread Dieter Maurer
Martijn Faassen wrote at 2004-4-21 19:42 +0200: Stephan Richter wrote: Nobody is willing to contribute. ZC agreed to change zope.org to Plone so more community members can contribute. But noone has stepped up; that's very sad. I believe part of the blockage is because contributors have to

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: When should one call Connection.sync?

2004-04-22 Thread Dieter Maurer
Syver Enstad wrote at 2004-4-21 18:03 +0200: Syver Enstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am using ZODB 3.2 in a twisted based web application. I have read that I need to call sync to keep the connection up to date. When exactly should I call sync? Are there any drawbacks with calling it

Zope Book development moved (was Re: Call for Zope Book volunteers (was Re: Zope Book, was Re: [Zope-dev] The bleak Future of Zope?))

2004-04-22 Thread Chris McDonough
I've come to the unfortunate conclusion that Zope.org is just not going to cut it to do Zope Book development work due to its speed (or lack thereof). I'd like to help fix the Zope.org slowness problem, but I'm a little unclear about what's required for me to get the level of access required to

Re: [Zope-dev] The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-22 Thread Terry Hancock
On Thursday 22 April 2004 05:22 pm, Dieter Maurer wrote: Writing a fundamentally complex web application within 2 months work is quite impressive, isn't it? Apparently, the framework is not too bad... Ya' think? I thought it just meant I kicked ass. :-D No, seriously Zope is great. But it's