Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-12-06 Thread Adrian Hungate
views expressed in this email are those of the whole world, however some people don't realise this yet. - Original Message - From: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jeffrey P Shell [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 12:33 AM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-12-03 Thread Toby Dickenson
On Sat, 1 Dec 2001 08:50:14 -0500, Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode support inside Zope. But there has been no feedback. It looks like no one needs unicode support in Zope ?! :-) I see the smiley, but Im still not sure

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-12-03 Thread Paul Everitt
Clearly this is a situation that has broken down. I'll suggest a resolution in a private note to you in a sec. --Paul Toby Dickenson wrote: On Sat, 1 Dec 2001 08:50:14 -0500, Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode

Re: core i18n support (was [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev)

2001-12-02 Thread Paul Everitt
]; Robert Rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev - Original Message - From: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert Rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED

Re: core i18n support (was [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev)

2001-12-02 Thread Lennart Regebro
] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 7:13 PM Subject: Re: core i18n support (was [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev) As both Robert and Joachim (in another message) have noted, core i18n support is blocked by a single issue: there are two different approaches and insufficient

Re: core i18n support (was [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev)

2001-12-02 Thread Joachim Schmitz
PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev - Original Message - From: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert Rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED

Re: core i18n support (was [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev)

2001-12-02 Thread Robert Rottermann
Message - From: Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Robert Rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 7:13 PM Subject: Re: core i18n support (was [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev) As both Robert and Joachim (in another message) have noted, core i18n

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-12-01 Thread Robert Rottermann
Friends,first thing I want is to express my huge gratitude to have something like Zope and its community.I have read all the all the mail that has been stirred by "that" open letter.I agree very much and I am willing to contribute as much as I can that zope should grow 10x.I found two

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-12-01 Thread Paul Everitt
Agreed completely on both of those points. There's double good news on both: 1) Someone plans to do something about it. 2) Both are with community involvement. On documentation, someone in the community has committed to taking over the Documentation page on zope.org and finally organizing

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-12-01 Thread Joachim Werner
Hi! This is a totally different business model than the one Zope Corp. is using right now, but it might help refinancing the overhead a good community needs to have ... Would it have to be done by ZC? No, of course not. And there could be more than one of course (though we'd need a

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-12-01 Thread Joachim Werner
The second is pretty exciting as well. I saw a presentation in Paris by Juan David Palomar, of Localizer fame. (The presentation is now up at http://estce.act.uji.es:9673/localizer). The presentation impressed me on the need to get someone into the core of Zope that knows all these

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-12-01 Thread Andreas Jung
- Original Message - From: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert Rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 08:22 Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev The second is pretty exciting as well. I

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-12-01 Thread Joachim Werner
be integrated into the Zope core. Referring to the open letter to zope-dev I could also charge the community for zero feedback. But this is not the place and time for flamewars. Instead we should bundle the power of ZC and the community. The opening of the CVS is a good starting point but I would

core i18n support (was [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev)

2001-12-01 Thread Robert Rottermann
it. Robert - Original Message - From: Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert Rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-12-01 Thread Clark O'Brien
If anyone has seen how open source works, there is usually a strong core team - like the ZC folks- who provide direction to the project. There are also dozens if not hundreds of enthusiastic folks who are less involved but contribute features, patches, bug fixes, documentation ... Despite the

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-12-01 Thread Robert Rottermann
- Original Message - From: Clark O'Brien [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Andy Dawkins [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 6:47 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev If anyone has seen how open source works

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-12-01 Thread Bill Anderson
On Sat, 2001-12-01 at 06:02, Joachim Werner wrote: Hi! This is a totally different business model than the one Zope Corp. is using right now, but it might help refinancing the overhead a good community needs to have ... Would it have to be done by ZC? No, of course not.

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-12-01 Thread Chris Withers
Clark O'Brien wrote: In my humble opinion if the open source process had been allowed to progress unfettered by corporate greed Zope would even now have a state of maturity that it is not likely to reach even in 10 years of development at the current rate. Oh go back to your troll hole

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Andy Dawkins
My Two Cents I don't regularly post to zope-dev, simply because there are many other people in the zope community who can answer the questions just as well i as could. But i remain subscribed, reading an post that catch my attention. I have read Mr. Milton's posts carefully, and although i

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Lennart Regebro
From: Andrew Kenneth Milton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Noone from Zope Corp seems to monitor the list to help out. That is not my experience at all. I have received answers from Zope corps several times. But sure, most of the answers you get come from the community members. Thats what a community is all

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Steve Alexander
Lennart Regebro wrote: What I do agree on is that Zope corp not always seem to *listen* to the community. It is hard to contribute to Zope, and it feels to me that you have to fight to make Zope Corp to things the right way, even when you in fact already have done the work for them. I

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread seb bacon
* Lennart Regebro [EMAIL PROTECTED] [011130 11:24]: From: Andrew Kenneth Milton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Noone from Zope Corp seems to monitor the list to help out. That is not my experience at all. I have received answers from Zope corps several times. But sure, most of the answers you get come

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Steve Alexander
Lennart Regebro wrote: Does the fishbowl process address this for you? http://dev.zope.org/Fishbowl/Introduction.html I'm aware of the fishbowl process. Sorry, I wasn't clear with my question. Does the fishbowl process address what you said about having to fight to get things done

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Paul Everitt
First, I have to thank you for sparking a long-overdue conversation. It's true that we at ZC have been staring at our navels for a while. Though it's reasonable for us to pay first attention to those paying us money, it can become short-sighted. As you pointed out, everyone in Zope needs Zope

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Paul Everitt
Lennart Regebro wrote: What I do agree on is that Zope corp not always seem to *listen* to the community. It is hard to contribute to Zope, and it feels to me that you have to fight to make Zope Corp to things the right way, even when you in fact already have done the work for them. I don't

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Paul Everitt
seb bacon wrote: If we think we're a community, then we should all be responsible for building on it. I think we should have a conversation about what makes a community work, and then come up with some positive suggestions about improving the community *ourselves*. ZC will follow, for

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Toby Dickenson
On Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:28:44 +, Steve Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does the fishbowl process address what you said about having to fight to get things done the right way, even when you've already produced the code, and making up for people's lack of time to do everything? In my

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Jeffrey P Shell
On Friday, November 30, 2001, at 04:18 AM, Lennart Regebro wrote: What I do agree on is that Zope corp not always seem to *listen* to the community. It is hard to contribute to Zope, and it feels to me that you have to fight to make Zope Corp to things the right way, even when you in

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Dieter Maurer
Andrew Kenneth Milton writes: It is the people who are in the trenches who are increasingly being disaffected by Zope Corp, it seems as if you're not subscribed to zope-dev, you have no voice, and for most people zope-dev is not an appropriate forum for them to be subscribed to.

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Joachim Werner
Hi! To be honest i would be happy for Zope 3 not to be backwards compatible. Tidy it up, delete the unless code, dare i say it - refactor. Yes so my products will break, well half a days refactoring myself and i have a tidier more understandable project anyway. YES, we need a new start.

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Joachim Werner
Noone from Zope Corp seems to monitor the list to help out. That is not my experience at all. I have received answers from Zope corps several times. But sure, most of the answers you get come from the community members. Thats what a community is all about, and thats the hallmark of a good

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Joachim Werner
I seem to have to comment on most of the mails in this thread. Sorry for that ;-) Personally, I think ZC are trying very hard, but are not getting it right. I'm also very sure they are taking this conversation seriously. Brian responded very quickly to the userfolder 'api' issues. They

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Joachim Werner
Hi Paul! I don't want to replace one group of people with a busy agenda with another group of people with a busy agenda. We need a small group of people that are willing to make a long-term commitment to responsibility. These people can then tap into others that can commit on an as-needed

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Joachim Werner
Where's the $99 version of Zope? The $499? The $1499? The $25999? Zope Corp hasn't pulled that card out like many other vendors have. There are actually many pieces of Zope that were initially commercial add-ons (or intended to be) that are now all open source. I sometimes have the

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Chris McDonough
The session management framework (formerly known as CoreSessionTracking, now it is in the core and just called Session) is another example, if my first look was right. The API seems to have changed a lot between the last CST and the final Session release that is part of 2.5 beta. O.k., there

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Paul Everitt
Chris was just drinking a beer with us at Orbit's twenty minutes ago, and now he's responding to email on a Friday night. That's just sick. I don't think your boss fully appreciates you, number 27. :^) --Paul Chris McDonough wrote: The session management framework (formerly known as

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Phil Harris
He's also on #zope, chatting and supporting :) On Saturday 01 December 2001 02:02, Paul Everitt wrote: Chris was just drinking a beer with us at Orbit's twenty minutes ago, and now he's responding to email on a Friday night. That's just sick. I don't think your boss fully appreciates you,

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Bill Anderson
... This is a totally different business model than the one Zope Corp. is using right now, but it might help refinancing the overhead a good community needs to have ... Would it have to be done by ZC? ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread James Johnson
> It is the people who are in the trenches who are increasingly being > disaffected by Zope Corp, it seems as if you're not subscribed to > zope-dev, you have no voice, and for most people zope-dev is not an > appropriate forum for them to be subscribed to. This reminds me of the story,

[Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-29 Thread Andrew Kenneth Milton
Since I seem to be the cause of all hell breaking loose over here, I thought take the opportunity to respond, since I haven't really been given an opportunity to do that. Since this probably going to be my only ever posting to zope-dev, I don't feel constrained to be brief in exercising my right