Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-07 Thread Dieter Maurer
Adrian Hungate writes: ... ZMI critiques ... Personally I love the ZMI in the current versions. I have also found there is a negligable learning curve for users who already know how to use Windows Explorer and similar products. I just don't see the need to throw out the ZMI - Are we

[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-07 Thread Lalo Martins
On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 10:52:27AM +0100, Adrian Hungate wrote: My question is this: Everyone is saying The ZMI is bad, it's confusing, users don't like it. Which everyone? Not me. Could anyone show me evidence of this? Personally I love the ZMI in the current versions. I have also found

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-06 Thread Adrian Hungate
From: Gary Poster [EMAIL PROTECTED] I agree that we ought to trash frames we ought to use strict xhtml 1.0 we ought to rely on CSS for all graphic elements (correlative) we ought to not use *any* shims or non-logical tables the site ought to work completely without JS or Flash

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-05 Thread Lennart Regebro
From: William Trenker [EMAIL PROTECTED] One design consideration is how much to rely on CSS. Looking under the hood (ie, viewing the source) for some of these slick designs reveals modest to sophisticated dependence on CSS. But I think the days of worrying how it's going to look on Netscape

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-05 Thread Eric Roby
I have been working with Plone now for a couple of days. I think your suggestion is an excellent one. It has very crisp/clean lines ... excellent implementation... I propose to base the Zope3 ZMI on the Plone CMF skin (designed primarily by the talented Alexander Limi and Vidar Andersen with

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-05 Thread Paul Everitt
I think this conversation is trending in the wrong direction. Zope 3 needs to make it possible to build YABB, interfaces which support all browsers while still looking slick, etc. However, it is important to note: Zope 3 is *not* a product. It is used to build products. The core ZMI is

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-05 Thread Jens Vagelpohl
as a data point, here is browser data for one of the sites i own. the data is produced by webalizer. NS4 is becoming negligible:: Top 25 of 73 Total User Agents # HitsUser Agent 1 47194 81.46% Micro$haft Internet Exploder 2 16780 28.96% MSIE 6.0 3 16273

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-05 Thread Dan Pierson
On Fri, 2002-04-05 at 12:41, Paul Everitt wrote: However, it is important to note: Zope 3 is *not* a product. It is used to build products. The core ZMI is needed to the extent that it helps build or administer products. Thus, Zope 3 is not like YABB. [snip] With all this in mind, I

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-05 Thread Jens Vagelpohl
mac OS X browsers: - IE 5.1 - mozilla 0.99 (=1.0) i won't include OmniWeb because its CSS support is still flaky. jens On Friday, April 5, 2002, at 04:04 , Dan Pierson wrote: On Fri, 2002-04-05 at 12:41, Paul Everitt wrote: However, it is important to note: Zope 3 is *not* a product. It

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-05 Thread Toby Dickenson
On 05 Apr 2002 09:04:15 +, Dan Pierson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree. IMHO the browser compatibility requirements for the new ZMI should be summarized as: Current IE Mozilla 1.0 Konqueror (KDE 3.0 version) ...what's the current state of Mac browsers... That

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-05 Thread Fred L. Drake, Jr.
Jens Vagelpohl writes: mac OS X browsers: - IE 5.1 - mozilla 0.99 (=1.0) i won't include OmniWeb because its CSS support is still flaky. Whether a browser should be included depends on what portion of the audience uses it, not how broken it may be. I don't see it listed in the

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-05 Thread Phillip J. Eby
Folks, can we please stop the zope-dev/zope3-dev crossposts and direct this thread to zope3-dev only? You're doubling the volume of posts I have to read. :) Thanks. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-05 Thread Casey Duncan
I agree 100% with Toby. I don't care how it looks in NS4 or (insert old non-standard browser here), so long as the functionality is still there. I think the ZMI should also work 100% with w3m. If we do that, then we are basically already taking care or accessibility. I also vote to kill

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-05 Thread Gary Poster
I almost 100% agree with Casey--and hallelujah for him writing it, because that means I don't have to. ;-) I agree that we ought to trash frames we ought to use strict xhtml 1.0 we ought to rely on CSS for all graphic elements (correlative) we ought to not use *any* shims or non-logical

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-05 Thread Barry A. Warsaw
JV == Jens Vagelpohl [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: JV as a data point, here is browser data for one of the sites i JV own. the data is produced by webalizer. NS4 is becoming JV negligible:: PE == Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: PE However, it is important to note: Zope 3

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-05 Thread Andreas Heckel
Jens Vagelpohl wrote: as a data point, here is browser data for one of the sites i own. the data is produced by webalizer. NS4 is becoming negligible:: IMHO it simply has to pass the w3c html and css validators at http://validator.w3.org/ http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/ BTW: my Browser

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-05 Thread Alexander Limi
Hi, Alexander Limi here, I am responsible for Plone's design and XHTML/CSS. I just want to clarify some issues: * The goal of Plone is to be lightweight, to offload as much layout as possible to the CSS. Should be possible to use in low-bandwith situations (mobile 9600bps GSM connections etc).

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-05 Thread Alexander Limi
From: Casey Duncan [EMAIL PROTECTED] In light of that, I would like to see a ZMI skin that is fully xhtml 1.0 compliant, and uses CSS2 to its full extend, and possibly some CSS3. To me that means that one could develop the html coding completely devoid of presentation (no tables used for

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-05 Thread Alexander Limi
From: Casey Duncan [EMAIL PROTECTED] In light of that, I would like to see a ZMI skin that is fully xhtml 1.0 compliant, and uses CSS2 to its full extend, and possibly some CSS3. To me that means that one could develop the html coding completely devoid of presentation (no tables used for

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-05 Thread William Trenker
At 07:41 AM 4/5/02 -0500, Paul Everitt wrote: I think this conversation is trending in the wrong direction. The core ZMI is needed to the extent that it helps build or administer products. Thus, Zope 3 is not like YABB. Yes, your point is well taken. I hesitated bringing this up in the first

Re[2]: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-05 Thread Sean Abrahams
If you're looking for a group that understands UI and HTML, check out www.37signals.com. They do excellent UI and design work that looks simple, clean, and slick. They're expensive, but I wouldn't be surprised if they donated their work just to say they designed Zope 3's UI, that would be a huge

[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-04 Thread Lalo Martins
On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 03:05:39PM -0600, Stephan Richter wrote: Hello everyone, as we are moving forward developing Zope 3 with large steps, it becomes more and more desirable to think about a nice frontend (ZMI) for Zope 3. However the skill set of the developers currently working on

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-04 Thread William Trenker
At 08:04 PM 4/4/02 -0300, Lalo Martins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I propose to base the Zope3 ZMI on the Plone CMF skin (designed primarily by the talented Alexander Limi and Vidar Andersen with important coding by Alan Runyan), which can be seen at http://plone.org. Perhaps we should take Lalo's

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-04 Thread Stephan Richter
Perhaps we should take Lalo's suggestion further and collect a list of existing designs that show what real graphic talent has been able to accomplish. Some of the newer weblogs, wikis, forums, portals etc. out there are looking almost, well, beautiful. Here's an example from YABB (Yet

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-04 Thread Fred L. Drake, Jr.
Stephan Richter writes: I think we can safely rely on CSS. Common, Zope 3 is a new product, and if someone needs to make it backward Browser-compatible, he can always implement a less fancy CSS-free skin. Argh! I can hear Guido tell us about his Netscape 4 now... There are still a

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-04 Thread William Trenker
At 11:36 PM 4/4/02 -0600, you wrote: I think we can safely rely on CSS. Would you be comfortable with CSS Level 2? Current CSS standards even provide some of the dynamic formatting, like text rollovers, that used to require Javascript . I, for one, would limit the dependency on Javascript in the

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-04 Thread Barry A. Warsaw
WT == William Trenker [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: WT Current CSS standards even provide some of the dynamic WT formatting, like text rollovers, that used to require WT Javascript . When Fred showed me this, I freaked, it was so cool. But then I use Mozilla, so I don't know that you

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-04 Thread Fred L. Drake, Jr.
William Trenker writes: Would you be comfortable with CSS Level 2? My own thought is that we could use CSS 2 and as much of CSS 3 as we can coax out of advanced browsers. We should use the advanced CSS features to avoid needing *Script, since that's evil and many users turn it off due to

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Are there Graphic Designers?

2002-04-04 Thread William Trenker
At 12:47 AM 4/5/02 -0500, you wrote: I've spent more time making the Python docs work in NS4 than making them look good in more modern browsers This is sad but true. I still have Netscape 4 here for testing as well. (I run into the same problem with other web technologies, like Macromedia Flash.