Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain
Whereas XML attributes, order indeterminisim, slots, METAL and templates are? Adrian... - Original Message - From: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Marc Lindahl [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: zope-dev [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 8:15 PM Subject: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain Marc Lindahl wrote: Still I think the concept of TAL having some kind of 'stack' for condition results makes sense and is worth exploring... Could yield better logical constructs, and things like case statements. Sorry, but I don't see a 'stack' of any sort being easy to explain to a newbie or not programmer. cheers, Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: stacks != easy to explain
Don't even get me started on that one! I don't think this is neccessarily a criticism of Zope though, or ZPT. We are all human, and apt to err. ZPT is imperfect, but the balance of opinion would appear to be that it is better than what has gone before. It is irritating to learn a new syntax, it is hard to read (Some of us design Zope sites TTW...) the flow of logic is obscure and sometimes downright impossible to follow, but people seem to work around it anyway. Much the same is true of the failure of Netscape, Microsoft, and all the others to even read, let alone follow, the defined standards on, well, just about anything. There is one important point being missed here though - Why should the non-programmers be interested in the coding? If the concept of a stack is to hard for them to understand, so what? Shouldn't they be designing plain pages, which the coded templates simply render? Or are we now passing off the task of designing look and feel to non-experts? Anyone want to find another area of the industry to dilute? Now, return to the Marc and Chris' last comments, why exactly can't leading browsers follow standards, because they are written by people that can't program, in languages that were made simple for the sake of non-experts. I put it to you that this argument is invalid and of no merit. Adrian... - Original Message - From: Marc Lindahl [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: zope-dev [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Re: stacks != easy to explain on 5/14/02 4:43 AM, Chris Withers at [EMAIL PROTECTED] scrivened: Marc Lindahl wrote: Sorry, but I don't see a 'stack' of any sort being easy to explain to a newbie or not programmer. I'd disagree - HTML has this concept - for example the way table tags inherit properties. Key is that the 'stack' idea is hidden within the hierarchy idea. Hmmm... do you knnow how many people get confused by that specifc issue? Especially as different browsers inherit different levels of formatting... I think the confusion on that issue with tables has only to do with the bugs in the implementation on certain browsers. Which points to the inability of supposedly real programmers to understand stacks, parsing, state machines - not the poor HTML coders :) - if you read diatribes by the layout guys (like alistapart) you'll see their frustration is based that the heirarchy (stacking) isn't working as expected. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: stacks != easy to explain
From: Marc Lindahl [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip in the implementation on certain browsers. Which points to the inability of supposedly real programmers to understand stacks, parsing, state machines - not the poor HTML coders :) - if you read diatribes by the layout guys (like alistapart) you'll see their frustration is based that the heirarchy (stacking) isn't working as expected. So surely it would be bad to introduce a similar bug opportunity? Adrian Hungate wrote: would appear to be that it is better than what has gone before. It is irritating to learn a new syntax, Think of the benefits ;-) it is hard to read (Some of us design Zope sites TTW...) Un-learn that habit too. It's so nice having things like search replace and syntax highlighting afterall... the flow of logic is obscure and sometimes downright impossible to follow, Urm? Gimme some examples so I can help... There is one important point being missed here though - Why should the non-programmers be interested in the coding? If the concept of a stack is to hard for them to understand, so what? Shouldn't they be designing plain pages, which the coded templates simply render? See the TASSLE discussion over on the ZPT list ;-) Or are we now passing off the task of designing look and feel to non-experts? Anyone want to find another area of the industry to dilute? Now, return to the Marc and Chris' last comments, why exactly can't leading browsers follow standards, because they are written by people that can't program, in languages that were made simple for the sake of non-experts. I put it to you that this argument is invalid and of no merit. I don't even understand the point you're missing ;-) *grinz* Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain
Adrian Hungate wrote: Whereas XML attributes, order indeterminisim, ...Solved by making it absolutely clear what order stuff executes in. If I was training people, I'd tell them to write it in that order too... slots, METAL and templates are? This is all METAL. METAL is not as simple or robust as it could be, but you don't have to use it ;-) Still, once explained, most people seem to get it pretty quickly... cheers, Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] 'not:' kludgey?!
Don Hopkins wrote: To be more accurate: Nope ;-) SOME templating languages were never designed to be procedural languages. ...if a language is designed to be a procedural language, then it ain't a templating language... cheers, Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: stacks != easy to explain
From: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] it is hard to read (Some of us design Zope sites TTW...) Un-learn that habit too. It's so nice having things like search replace and syntax highlighting afterall... Now, this is an interesting statement and one I have heard often, and that I throughly disagree on. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the TTW part is what is one of the strenghts of Zope - I'd say that the fact that Zope uses TTW editing has had a major impact on the kind of templating mechanism and infrastructure that Zope, as opposed to much of the competition, offers out of the box. I myself choose over iPlanet and Oracle Application Server, because Zope had a lot of infrastructure IN PLACE that is needed for development, as opposed to say, Oracle Application Server, where I had to write everything from scratch, including lots of the admin interfaces. As an example, the only real competitior that Zope had at the time I was loking for web-app frameworks was Roxen Challanger, where Roxen gives away the Roxen Webserver as GPL, but sells their TTW development environment for about 5000 US$/developer. So, TTW has it's merits. Now, Roxen has FILESYSTEM based development as well, which might be what we all want as well, but *not instead*. Just because ChrisW has gone beyond TTW editing, does not make it a Bad Thing(tm) in general :) Going back to the ZPT is good/bad and DTML is ok/evil discussion, something hit me a couple of weeks ago while chatting on #zope: It seems that ZPT is mostly aimed at the Page Designer, whereas DTML is mostly aimed at the Developer. Would this be a correct assesment of the situation? /dario ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: stacks != easy to explain
Hi Dario, Dario Lopez-Kästen wrote: Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the TTW part is what is one of the strenghts of Zope - Well, no, not really. Being able to edit stuff remotely is where Zope's real strength lies. WebDAV and FTP are much better than using sucky HTTP forms to do this ;-) Just because ChrisW has gone beyond TTW editing, does not make it a Bad Thing(tm) in general :) I challenge you to justify how editing in a text box is better than using a full text editor, given that both can be used remotely ;-) It seems that ZPT is mostly aimed at the Page Designer, whereas DTML is mostly aimed at the Developer. Would this be a correct assesment of the situation? DTML didn't have a clue who it was aimed at, which was it's main problem ;-) *grinz* Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] restrictedTraverse
Anybody has any light to shed on this ? Especially the second paragraph... Thanks, Florent Florent Guillaume [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With an object path /A/B/C where C has a local role allowing a user to view C but where B disallows acquisition of the View permission, the publisher correctly allows the user to see C. However restrictedTraverse('/A/B/C') fails (You are not allowed to access B in this context). This is because restrictedTraverse checks the security (using validate) at *every* step, and obviously the user is not allowed to see B. Is there a reason for this ? Why not simply validate only at the last step ? I have the need to programatically access object protected in such a way. The workaround I'm going to use in my code for now is to call unrestrictedTraverse and validate() by hand the resulting object. But I'm concerned that there may be a more profound security reason I'm missing. -- Florent Guillaume, Nuxeo (Paris, France) +33 1 40 33 79 87 http://nuxeo.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zope crash restart
Myroslav Opyr wrote: System Platform freebsd4 Are you running with the pthread stack size patches applied to Python? See https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detailaid=554841group_id=5470atid=305470 for the patch, and recompile Python with OPT=-g -O2 -DTHREAD_STACK_SIZE=0x2 ./configure --whatever-your-options-are ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zope crash restart
Hi, it look like it works! I have to give site some time to run to be sure. Where I can vote for a bug or to give comments? On SF.tracker issue? to make it go into release. As far as I understand the patch is quick-hack to make it work and do not solve the issue completely, just increase the stack size... There should be better solution, isn't it? Will it go into Python-2.1.4? m. -- Myroslav Opyr zope.net.ua * Ukrainian Zope Hosting e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cell: +380 50.3174578 On Wed, 15 May 2002, Behrens Matt - Grand Rapids wrote: Myroslav Opyr wrote: As far as I remember the issue was solved in Python 2.1.3, wasn't it? Or it was GC patch? No. Try my patch, that solves the problem Jens is talking about. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zope crash restart
add your comment, encouragement, flames et to the sourceforge bug tracker issue. i guess that would help most. jens On Wednesday, May 15, 2002, at 10:55 , Myroslav Opyr wrote: Hi, it look like it works! I have to give site some time to run to be sure. Where I can vote for a bug or to give comments? On SF.tracker issue? to make it go into release. As far as I understand the patch is quick-hack to make it work and do not solve the issue completely, just increase the stack size... There should be better solution, isn't it? Will it go into Python-2.1.4? m. -- Myroslav Opyr zope.net.ua * Ukrainian Zope Hosting e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cell: +380 50.3174578 On Wed, 15 May 2002, Behrens Matt - Grand Rapids wrote: Myroslav Opyr wrote: As far as I remember the issue was solved in Python 2.1.3, wasn't it? Or it was GC patch? No. Try my patch, that solves the problem Jens is talking about. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zope crash restart
this particular issue is *not* solved in 2.1.3 jens On Wednesday, May 15, 2002, at 10:00 , Myroslav Opyr wrote: As far as I remember the issue was solved in Python 2.1.3, wasn't it? Or it was GC patch? Ok, I'll try to patch sources... m. -- Myroslav Opyr zope.net.ua * Ukrainian Zope Hosting e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cell: +380 50.3174578 On Wed, 15 May 2002, Jens Vagelpohl wrote: python has a crashbug under FreeBSD due to FreeBSDs *tiny* thread stack size. search the mailing list, there were posts with workarounds. unfortunately, those workarounds involve patching python sources and recompiling. jens On Wednesday, May 15, 2002, at 09:50 , Myroslav Opyr wrote: Hi, There is installation: Zope Version (Zope 2.5.1 (source release, python 2.1, linux2), python 2.1.3, freebsd4) Python Version 2.1.3 (#1, May 5 2002, 06:29:09) [GCC 2.95.3 20010315 (release) [FreeBSD]] System Platform freebsd4 ZODB contains an instance of modified CMFSite (translated in Ukrainian, CMFSiteUA). System works perfectly well even on Zope 2.5.0 on Win32 platform but crashes on FreeBSD. Site was Exported (from Win32) and Imported (to FreeBSD). Local Filesystem View folders were deleted and recreated manually. As soon as somebody tries to touch that CMFSiteUA Zope crashes and restarts. Workaround found is: to enter management interface somwhere deeper, for example /Examples/manage or /Control_Panel/manage. Then Zope loads parts of the system into RAM and appears possibility to run the site. Sooner or later, when there is sufficient time-frame to unload all objects out of the RAM cache (no user activity), system turns back into unusable state and again there is need to bring it up with /Control_Panel/manage. . . Any hints? BTW, there is absolutely no output in debug mode. Just usual INFO(0) messages on startup. Crash and again usual messages. Watchdow process remains into memory but new child performing requests processinf are respawned. And again INFO(0) messages are flushed into stdout... Any help would be appreciated. Regards, Myroslav -- Myroslav Opyr zope.net.ua * Ukrainian Zope Hosting e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cell: +380 50.3174578 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] References to hypertext templating languages
From: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] 'not:' kludgey?! Don Hopkins wrote: To be more accurate: Nope ;-) SOME templating languages were never designed to be procedural languages. ...if a language is designed to be a procedural language, then it ain't a templating language... cheers, Chris Please show me some references to where you got your definition of templating language. Has the term been officiall defined by W3C, or is the term defined in the literature? References and examples, please! A few years ago I implemented my own XML templating language which was a lot like Lisp, based on the lessons of HyperTIES and other systems. Since then I've decided to throw it away and reimplement an even better XML templating language with Python, which is why this discussion interests me. I've included some samples of my own XML templating language, including code and data, at the end of this message. Templating is a purpose to which you put a language. It's not an exclusive category that rules out any particular programming technique. Lisp is an excellent templating language for generating Lisp code, also known as metaprogramming'. The C preprocessor is a woefully lame templating language, because it's string based, and lacks procedural programming constructs. But C++ templates are certainly a much more powerful templating language than C preprocessor macros. C++ templates allow you to trick the compiler into performing all kinds of calculations for you. They're Turing complete, but astronomically complex. Unfortunately you have to deeply understand almost everything about C++ templates in to use them (and especially to debug them). Case in point: STL. However, Lisp macros are way more powerful than C++ templates, and much easier to use, without requiring you to understand their inner workings. Example: the loop macro. Here are some references and examples of some of my earlier work on hypertext templating languages. During 1988-1990, I was working for Ben Shneiderman at the University of Maryland Human Computer Interaction Lab, on a system called HyperTIES: designing, implementing and using a hypermedia markup language called HyperTIES Markup Language, with a browser for the NeWS window system, and an authoring tool based on UniPress Emacs. We considered using SGML at the time but decided not to, because it was too complex and not very user-friendly, so we developed our own markup language. Ben Shneiderman is very focused on the ease of use thing (for authors as well as users), but as a researcher he also wants to experiment with advanced techniques like authoring and browsing conditional and parameterized hypermedia (aka templates). So HyperTIES was designed to be simple enough for non-programmers to author and use, yet also powerful enough for programmers to make application-specific templates and frameworks of macros, which non-programmers could easily use to author their own pages, without understanding the entire language. The HyperTIES Markup Language syntax was designed to be simple (low syntactic surface area), while also supporting abstraction, conditionals, looping, variables, macros and other procedural programming language constructs. In 1989, the Unix version of HyperTIES supported java-like applets which casual authors could easily embed and parameterize, without understanding the implementation language. I implemented the HyperTIES browser in C and NeWS PostScript, and the authoring tool in Emacs Mocklisp, using James Gosling's NeWS window system and Emacs text editor (he hadn't invented Java yet). HyperTIES authors could use macros and other constructs like loops and conditionals, to dynamically populate pages with interactive formatted text, graphics, and parameterized applets (like pie menus, etc). The HyperTIES browser would download a formatted PostScript display list to the window server, then instantiate and customize all of the interactive embedded widgets on the page. It supported components such as encapsulated PostScript, graphical buttons, pop-up shaped image maps, text editors, pie menus, and other interactive widgets implemented in PostScript for the NeWS window system. Casual hypermedia authors could create applets and pass parameters to them without programming or understanding the PostScript implementation language running in the window server. Authors could also call on pre-defined higher level libraries of HyperTIES macros, written by programmers to support their particular tasks, all without knowing how to program the HyperTIES Markup Language running in the browser. You don't need to know how to program in a language, in order to simply call pre-defined functions and macros. It's misguided to artificially limit the power of a templating language, in order to make it easy to use. Defining templating languages as not procedural lanugages is simply wrong, and totally arbitrary. That definition excludes many widely used, well known
Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain
From: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Adrian Hungate [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Marc Lindahl [EMAIL PROTECTED]; zope-dev [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 1:32 AM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain Adrian Hungate wrote: Whereas XML attributes, order indeterminisim, ...Solved by making it absolutely clear what order stuff executes in. If I was training people, I'd tell them to write it in that order too... You can't make the order of XML attribute execution clear, because they are defined as unordered. If you're using ordered attributes, then you're not using XML. -Don ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: References to hypertext templating languages
man, you have waaay to much tiem on your hands ;-) Chris Don Hopkins wrote: snipHello?! How much stuff... sorry, I didn't even read it/snip ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain
whatever... Don Hopkins wrote: From: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Adrian Hungate [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Marc Lindahl [EMAIL PROTECTED]; zope-dev [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 1:32 AM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain Adrian Hungate wrote: Whereas XML attributes, order indeterminisim, ...Solved by making it absolutely clear what order stuff executes in. If I was training people, I'd tell them to write it in that order too... You can't make the order of XML attribute execution clear, because they are defined as unordered. If you're using ordered attributes, then you're not using XML. -Don ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: References to hypertext templating languages
On May 15, 2002 11:13 am, Chris Withers wrote: man, you have waaay to much tiem on your hands ;-) Wow chris is typing sooo fast he cant spell teim properly... -- Andy McKay ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: References to hypertext templating languages
Andy McKay wrote: On May 15, 2002 11:13 am, Chris Withers wrote: man, you have waaay to much tiem on your hands ;-) Wow chris is typing sooo fast he cant spell teim properly... Nah, I just suffer from IFS... Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain
Adrian Hungate wrote: Whereas XML attributes, order indeterminisim, Chris Withers wrote: ...Solved by making it absolutely clear what order stuff executes in. If I was training people, I'd tell them to write it in that order too... Don Hopkins wrote: You can't make the order of XML attribute execution clear, because they are defined as unordered. If you're using ordered attributes, then you're not using XML. Indeed, and if your indentation is meaningful in your C source-code, you're not using C. However, that doesn't negate the benefit of a consistent coding style. -- Steve Alexander ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain
Don Hopkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...Solved by making it absolutely clear what order stuff executes in. If I was training people, I'd tell them to write it in that order too... You can't make the order of XML attribute execution clear, because they are defined as unordered. If you're using ordered attributes, then you're not using XML. What Chris means (and it's specified in the TAL documentation) is that for instance define attributes are executed before repeat attributes. Of course we all know that XML attributes can be reorganized by any parser or whatever. This is not what is meant here. Florent -- Florent Guillaume, Nuxeo (Paris, France) +33 1 40 33 79 87 http://nuxeo.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )