Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain

2002-05-15 Thread Adrian Hungate

Whereas XML attributes, order indeterminisim, slots, METAL and templates
are?

Adrian...

- Original Message -
From: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Marc Lindahl [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: zope-dev [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 8:15 PM
Subject: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain


 Marc Lindahl wrote:
 
  Still I think the concept of TAL having some kind of 'stack' for
condition
  results makes sense and is worth exploring...  Could yield better
logical
  constructs, and things like case statements.

 Sorry, but I don't see a 'stack' of any sort being easy to explain to a
newbie
 or not programmer.

 cheers,

 Chris


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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: stacks != easy to explain

2002-05-15 Thread Adrian Hungate

Don't even get me started on that one!

I don't think this is neccessarily a criticism of Zope though, or ZPT. We
are all human, and apt to err. ZPT is imperfect, but the balance of opinion
would appear to be that it is better than what has gone before. It is
irritating to learn a new syntax, it is hard to read (Some of us design Zope
sites TTW...) the flow of logic is obscure and sometimes downright
impossible to follow, but people seem to work around it anyway.

Much the same is true of the failure of Netscape, Microsoft, and all the
others to even read, let alone follow, the defined standards on, well, just
about anything.

There is one important point being missed here though - Why should the
non-programmers be interested in the coding? If the concept of a stack is to
hard for them to understand, so what? Shouldn't they be designing plain
pages, which the coded templates simply render? Or are we now passing off
the task of designing look and feel to non-experts? Anyone want to find
another area of the industry to dilute? Now, return to the Marc and Chris'
last comments, why exactly can't leading browsers follow standards, because
they are written by people that can't program, in languages that were made
simple for the sake of non-experts.

I put it to you that this argument is invalid and of no merit.

Adrian...

- Original Message -
From: Marc Lindahl [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: zope-dev [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Re: stacks != easy to explain


 on 5/14/02 4:43 AM, Chris Withers at [EMAIL PROTECTED] scrivened:

  Marc Lindahl wrote:
 
  Sorry, but I don't see a 'stack' of any sort being easy to explain to
a
  newbie
  or not programmer.
 
  I'd disagree - HTML has this concept - for example the way table tags
  inherit properties.  Key is that the 'stack' idea is hidden within the
  hierarchy idea.
 
  Hmmm... do you knnow how many people get confused by that specifc issue?
  Especially as
  different browsers inherit different levels of formatting...


 I think the confusion on that issue with tables has only to do with the
bugs
 in the implementation on certain browsers.  Which points to the inability
of
 supposedly real programmers to understand stacks, parsing, state
machines -
 not the poor HTML coders :)  - if you read diatribes by the layout guys
 (like alistapart) you'll see their frustration is based that the heirarchy
 (stacking) isn't working as expected.



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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: stacks != easy to explain

2002-05-15 Thread Chris Withers

 From: Marc Lindahl [EMAIL PROTECTED]
snip
  in the implementation on certain browsers.  Which points to the inability
 of
  supposedly real programmers to understand stacks, parsing, state
 machines -
  not the poor HTML coders :)  - if you read diatribes by the layout guys
  (like alistapart) you'll see their frustration is based that the heirarchy
  (stacking) isn't working as expected.

So surely it would be bad to introduce a similar bug opportunity?

Adrian Hungate wrote:
 
 would appear to be that it is better than what has gone before. It is
 irritating to learn a new syntax, 

Think of the benefits ;-)

 it is hard to read (Some of us design Zope
 sites TTW...) 

Un-learn that habit too. It's so nice having things like search  replace and syntax
highlighting afterall...

 the flow of logic is obscure and sometimes downright
 impossible to follow, 

Urm? Gimme some examples so I can help...

 There is one important point being missed here though - Why should the
 non-programmers be interested in the coding? If the concept of a stack is to
 hard for them to understand, so what? Shouldn't they be designing plain
 pages, which the coded templates simply render? 

See the TASSLE discussion over on the ZPT list ;-)

 Or are we now passing off
 the task of designing look and feel to non-experts? Anyone want to find
 another area of the industry to dilute? Now, return to the Marc and Chris'
 last comments, why exactly can't leading browsers follow standards, because
 they are written by people that can't program, in languages that were made
 simple for the sake of non-experts.
 
 I put it to you that this argument is invalid and of no merit.

I don't even understand the point you're missing ;-)

*grinz*

Chris


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Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain

2002-05-15 Thread Chris Withers

Adrian Hungate wrote:
 
 Whereas XML attributes, order indeterminisim, 

...Solved by making it absolutely clear what order stuff executes in. If I was training
people, I'd tell them to write it in that order too...

 slots, METAL and templates
 are?

This is all METAL. METAL is not as simple or robust as it could be, but you don't have 
to
use it ;-)

Still, once explained, most people seem to get it pretty quickly...

cheers,

Chris


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Re: [Zope-dev] 'not:' kludgey?!

2002-05-15 Thread Chris Withers

Don Hopkins wrote:
 
 To be more accurate:

Nope ;-)

 SOME templating languages were never designed to be procedural languages.

...if a language is designed to be a procedural language, then it ain't a templating
language...

cheers,

Chris


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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: stacks != easy to explain

2002-05-15 Thread Dario Lopez-Kästen

From: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  it is hard to read (Some of us design Zope
  sites TTW...)

 Un-learn that habit too. It's so nice having things like search  replace
and syntax
 highlighting afterall...



Now, this is an interesting statement and one I have heard often, and that I
throughly disagree on.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the TTW part is what is one of the
strenghts of Zope - I'd say that the fact that Zope uses TTW editing has had
a major impact on the kind of templating mechanism and infrastructure that
Zope, as opposed to much of the competition, offers out of the box.

I myself choose over iPlanet and Oracle Application Server, because Zope had
a lot of infrastructure IN PLACE that is needed for development, as opposed
to say, Oracle Application Server, where I had to write everything from
scratch, including lots of the admin interfaces.

As an example, the only real competitior that Zope had at the time I was
loking for web-app frameworks was Roxen Challanger, where Roxen gives away
the Roxen Webserver as GPL, but sells their TTW development environment for
about 5000 US$/developer. So, TTW has it's merits. Now, Roxen has FILESYSTEM
based development as well, which might be what we all want as well, but *not
instead*. Just because ChrisW has gone beyond TTW editing, does not make it
a Bad Thing(tm) in general :)

Going back to the ZPT is good/bad and DTML is ok/evil discussion,
something hit me a couple of weeks ago while chatting on #zope:

It seems that ZPT is mostly aimed at the Page Designer, whereas DTML is
mostly aimed at the Developer. Would this be a correct assesment of the
situation?

/dario




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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: stacks != easy to explain

2002-05-15 Thread Chris Withers

Hi Dario,

Dario Lopez-Kästen wrote:
 
 Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the TTW part is what is one of the
 strenghts of Zope -

Well, no, not really. Being able to edit stuff remotely is where Zope's real strength
lies. WebDAV and FTP are much better than using sucky HTTP forms to do this ;-)

 Just because ChrisW has gone beyond TTW editing, does not make it
 a Bad Thing(tm) in general :)

I challenge you to justify how editing in a text box is better than using a full text
editor, given that both can be used remotely ;-)

 It seems that ZPT is mostly aimed at the Page Designer, whereas DTML is
 mostly aimed at the Developer. Would this be a correct assesment of the
 situation?

DTML didn't have a clue who it was aimed at, which was it's main problem ;-)

*grinz*

Chris


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Re: [Zope-dev] restrictedTraverse

2002-05-15 Thread Florent Guillaume

Anybody has any light to shed on this ? Especially the second
paragraph...

Thanks,
Florent

Florent Guillaume  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 With an object path /A/B/C where C has a local role allowing a user to
 view C but where B disallows acquisition of the View permission, the
 publisher correctly allows the user to see C.
 
 However restrictedTraverse('/A/B/C') fails (You are not allowed to
 access B in this context). This is because restrictedTraverse checks
 the security (using validate) at *every* step, and obviously the
 user is not allowed to see B.  Is there a reason for this ? Why not
 simply validate only at the last step ?
 
 I have the need to programatically access object protected in such a
 way. The workaround I'm going to use in my code for now is to call
 unrestrictedTraverse and validate() by hand the resulting object.  But
 I'm concerned that there may be a more profound security reason I'm
 missing.
-- 
Florent Guillaume, Nuxeo (Paris, France)
+33 1 40 33 79 87  http://nuxeo.com  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope crash restart

2002-05-15 Thread Matt Behrens

Myroslav Opyr wrote:

 System Platform
   freebsd4


Are you running with the pthread stack size patches applied to Python?

See 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detailaid=554841group_id=5470atid=305470 
for the patch, and recompile Python with

OPT=-g -O2 -DTHREAD_STACK_SIZE=0x2 ./configure 
--whatever-your-options-are


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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope crash restart

2002-05-15 Thread Myroslav Opyr

Hi,

it look like it works! I have to give site some time to run to be sure.

Where I can vote for a bug or to give comments? On SF.tracker issue? to
make it go into release.

As far as I understand the patch is quick-hack to make it work and do not
solve the issue completely, just increase the stack size... There should
be better solution, isn't it?

Will it go into Python-2.1.4?

m.
--
Myroslav Opyr
zope.net.ua * Ukrainian Zope Hosting
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
cell: +380 50.3174578


On Wed, 15 May 2002, Behrens Matt - Grand Rapids wrote:

 Myroslav Opyr wrote:

  As far as I remember the issue was solved in Python 2.1.3, wasn't it? Or
  it was GC patch?

 No.

 Try my patch, that solves the problem Jens is talking about.




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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope crash restart

2002-05-15 Thread Jens Vagelpohl

add your comment, encouragement, flames et to the sourceforge bug tracker 
issue. i guess that would help most.

jens


On Wednesday, May 15, 2002, at 10:55 , Myroslav Opyr wrote:

 Hi,

 it look like it works! I have to give site some time to run to be sure.

 Where I can vote for a bug or to give comments? On SF.tracker issue? to
 make it go into release.

 As far as I understand the patch is quick-hack to make it work and do not
 solve the issue completely, just increase the stack size... There should
 be better solution, isn't it?

 Will it go into Python-2.1.4?

 m.
 --
 Myroslav Opyr
 zope.net.ua * Ukrainian Zope Hosting
 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 cell: +380 50.3174578


 On Wed, 15 May 2002, Behrens Matt - Grand Rapids wrote:

 Myroslav Opyr wrote:

 As far as I remember the issue was solved in Python 2.1.3, wasn't it? Or
 it was GC patch?

 No.

 Try my patch, that solves the problem Jens is talking about.





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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope crash restart

2002-05-15 Thread Jens Vagelpohl

this particular issue is *not* solved in 2.1.3

jens


On Wednesday, May 15, 2002, at 10:00 , Myroslav Opyr wrote:

 As far as I remember the issue was solved in Python 2.1.3, wasn't it? Or
 it was GC patch?

 Ok, I'll try to patch sources...

 m.
 --
 Myroslav Opyr
 zope.net.ua * Ukrainian Zope Hosting
 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 cell: +380 50.3174578


 On Wed, 15 May 2002, Jens Vagelpohl wrote:

 python has a crashbug under FreeBSD due to FreeBSDs *tiny* thread stack
 size.

 search the mailing list, there were posts with workarounds. 
 unfortunately,
   those workarounds involve patching python sources and recompiling.

 jens


 On Wednesday, May 15, 2002, at 09:50 , Myroslav Opyr wrote:

 Hi,

 There is installation:

 Zope Version
   (Zope 2.5.1 (source release, python 2.1, linux2), python 2.1.3,
 freebsd4)
 Python Version
   2.1.3 (#1, May 5 2002, 06:29:09) [GCC 2.95.3 20010315 (release)
 [FreeBSD]]
 System Platform
   freebsd4

 ZODB contains an instance of modified CMFSite (translated in Ukrainian,
 CMFSiteUA).

 System works perfectly well even on Zope 2.5.0 on Win32 platform but
 crashes on FreeBSD.

 Site was Exported (from Win32) and Imported (to FreeBSD). Local 
 Filesystem
 View folders were deleted and recreated manually.

 As soon as somebody tries to touch that CMFSiteUA Zope crashes and
 restarts. Workaround found is: to enter management interface somwhere
 deeper, for example /Examples/manage or /Control_Panel/manage. Then Zope
 loads parts of the system into RAM and appears possibility to run the
 site.

 Sooner or later, when there is sufficient time-frame to unload all 
 objects
 out of the RAM cache (no user activity), system turns back into unusable
 state and again there is need to bring it up with /Control_Panel/manage.
 .
 .

 Any hints? BTW, there is absolutely no output in debug mode. Just usual
 INFO(0) messages on startup. Crash and again usual messages. Watchdow
 process remains into memory but new child performing requests processinf
 are respawned. And again INFO(0) messages are flushed into stdout...

 Any help would be appreciated.

 Regards,

 Myroslav
 --
 Myroslav Opyr
 zope.net.ua * Ukrainian Zope Hosting
 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 cell: +380 50.3174578



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[Zope-dev] References to hypertext templating languages

2002-05-15 Thread Don Hopkins

From: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] 'not:' kludgey?!

 Don Hopkins wrote:
 
  To be more accurate:

 Nope ;-)

  SOME templating languages were never designed to be procedural
languages.

 ...if a language is designed to be a procedural language, then it ain't a
templating
 language...

 cheers,

 Chris

Please show me some references to where you got your definition of
templating language.
Has the term been officiall defined by W3C, or is the term defined in the
literature?
References and examples, please!

A few years ago I implemented my own XML templating language which was a lot
like Lisp, based on the lessons of HyperTIES and other systems.
Since then I've decided to throw it away and reimplement an even better XML
templating language with Python, which is why this discussion interests me.
I've included some samples of my own XML templating language, including code
and data, at the end of this message.

Templating is a purpose to which you put a language. It's not an exclusive
category that rules out any particular programming technique.
Lisp is an excellent templating language for generating Lisp code, also
known as metaprogramming'.
The C preprocessor is a woefully lame templating language, because it's
string based, and lacks procedural programming constructs.
But C++ templates are certainly a much more powerful templating language
than C preprocessor macros.
C++ templates allow you to trick the compiler into performing all kinds of
calculations for you. They're Turing complete, but astronomically complex.
Unfortunately you have to deeply understand almost everything about C++
templates in to use them (and especially to debug them). Case in point: STL.
However, Lisp macros are way more powerful than C++ templates, and much
easier to use, without requiring you to understand their inner workings.
Example: the loop macro.

Here are some references and examples of some of my earlier work on
hypertext templating languages.

During 1988-1990, I was working for Ben Shneiderman at the University of
Maryland Human Computer Interaction Lab, on a system called HyperTIES:
designing, implementing and using a hypermedia markup language called
HyperTIES Markup Language, with a browser for the NeWS window system, and
an authoring tool based on UniPress Emacs.
We considered using SGML at the time but decided not to, because it was too
complex and not very user-friendly, so we developed our own markup language.

Ben Shneiderman is very focused on the ease of use thing (for authors as
well as users), but as a researcher he also wants to experiment with
advanced techniques like authoring and browsing conditional and
parameterized hypermedia (aka templates).
So HyperTIES was designed to be simple enough for non-programmers to author
and use, yet also powerful enough for programmers to make
application-specific templates and frameworks of macros, which
non-programmers could easily use to author their own pages, without
understanding the entire language.
The HyperTIES Markup Language syntax was designed to be simple (low
syntactic surface area), while also supporting abstraction, conditionals,
looping, variables, macros and other procedural programming language
constructs.

In 1989, the Unix version of HyperTIES supported java-like applets which
casual authors could easily embed and parameterize, without understanding
the implementation language.
I implemented the HyperTIES browser in C and NeWS PostScript, and the
authoring tool in Emacs Mocklisp, using James Gosling's NeWS window system
and Emacs text editor (he hadn't invented Java yet).
HyperTIES authors could use macros and other constructs like loops and
conditionals, to dynamically populate pages with interactive formatted text,
graphics, and parameterized applets (like pie menus, etc).
The HyperTIES browser would download a formatted PostScript display list to
the window server, then instantiate and customize all of the interactive
embedded widgets on the page.
It supported components such as encapsulated PostScript, graphical buttons,
pop-up shaped image maps, text editors, pie menus, and other interactive
widgets implemented in PostScript for the NeWS window system.

Casual hypermedia authors could create applets and pass parameters to them
without programming or understanding the PostScript implementation language
running in the window server.
Authors could also call on pre-defined higher level libraries of HyperTIES
macros, written by programmers to support their particular tasks, all
without knowing how to program the HyperTIES Markup Language running in the
browser.

You don't need to know how to program in a language, in order to simply call
pre-defined functions and macros.
It's misguided to artificially limit the power of a templating language, in
order to make it easy to use.
Defining templating languages as not procedural lanugages is simply wrong,
and totally arbitrary.
That definition excludes many widely used, well known 

Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain

2002-05-15 Thread Don Hopkins

From: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Adrian Hungate [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Marc Lindahl [EMAIL PROTECTED]; zope-dev [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 1:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain


 Adrian Hungate wrote:
 
  Whereas XML attributes, order indeterminisim,

 ...Solved by making it absolutely clear what order stuff executes in. If I
was training
 people, I'd tell them to write it in that order too...

You can't make the order of XML attribute execution clear, because they are
defined as unordered.

If you're using ordered attributes, then you're not using XML.

-Don




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[Zope-dev] Re: References to hypertext templating languages

2002-05-15 Thread Chris Withers

man, you have waaay to much tiem on your hands ;-)

Chris

Don Hopkins wrote:
 
snipHello?! How much stuff... sorry, I didn't even read it/snip


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Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain

2002-05-15 Thread Chris Withers

whatever...

Don Hopkins wrote:
 
 From: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Adrian Hungate [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: Marc Lindahl [EMAIL PROTECTED]; zope-dev [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 1:32 AM
 Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain
 
  Adrian Hungate wrote:
  
   Whereas XML attributes, order indeterminisim,
 
  ...Solved by making it absolutely clear what order stuff executes in. If I
 was training
  people, I'd tell them to write it in that order too...
 
 You can't make the order of XML attribute execution clear, because they are
 defined as unordered.
 
 If you're using ordered attributes, then you're not using XML.
 
 -Don


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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: References to hypertext templating languages

2002-05-15 Thread Andy McKay

On May 15, 2002 11:13 am, Chris Withers wrote:
 man, you have waaay to much tiem on your hands ;-)

Wow chris is typing sooo fast he cant spell teim properly...
-- 
  Andy McKay


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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: References to hypertext templating languages

2002-05-15 Thread Chris Withers

Andy McKay wrote:
 
 On May 15, 2002 11:13 am, Chris Withers wrote:
  man, you have waaay to much tiem on your hands ;-)
 
 Wow chris is typing sooo fast he cant spell teim properly...

Nah, I just suffer from IFS...

Chris


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Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain

2002-05-15 Thread Steve Alexander


Adrian Hungate wrote:

Whereas XML attributes, order indeterminisim,


Chris Withers wrote:
 
...Solved by making it absolutely clear what order stuff executes in. If I
 was training people, I'd tell them to write it in that order too...

Don Hopkins wrote:
 You can't make the order of XML attribute execution clear, because they are
 defined as unordered.
 
 If you're using ordered attributes, then you're not using XML.

Indeed, and if your indentation is meaningful in your C source-code, 
you're not using C.

However, that doesn't negate the benefit of a consistent coding style.

--
Steve Alexander




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Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain

2002-05-15 Thread Florent Guillaume

Don Hopkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  ...Solved by making it absolutely clear what order stuff executes in.
  If I was training
  people, I'd tell them to write it in that order too...
 
 You can't make the order of XML attribute execution clear, because they are
 defined as unordered.
 
 If you're using ordered attributes, then you're not using XML.

What Chris means (and it's specified in the TAL documentation) is that
for instance define attributes are executed before repeat
attributes.

Of course we all know that XML attributes can be reorganized by any
parser or whatever. This is not what is meant here.

Florent

-- 
Florent Guillaume, Nuxeo (Paris, France)
+33 1 40 33 79 87  http://nuxeo.com  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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