[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Proposal: Rename zope package

2004-04-22 Thread Troy Farrell
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Hash: SHA1
Please pardon my slowness to respond.  Zope is (still) not (yet) my full-time
occupation.
Jim Fulton wrote:
| Troy Farrell wrote:
|
| Philipp, not everyone follows well-planned, ideal upgrade practices.
|
| There's only so much we can do for people who don't.
Agreed.   I'm mainly playing devil's advocate because we're moving into the
realm where changes have consequences (unlike the legacy-free nature of Z3.)
| I think your main point is people who skip updates.  Perhaps,
| I should have suggested keeping the legacy Zope package longer?
I think you are right.

| Deprecation errors are nice, but usually admins take one of two
|
| Warning, not errors
Yep, my mistake.

| approaches to
| them, neither of which is ideal:
| 1) Ignore them since everything seems to work alright
| 2) See the apocalypse horsemen headed their direction - this results in
| URGENT!!! HELP ME PLAESE RIGHT NOW email on the [EMAIL PROTECTED] list.
|
| This will cause many a shock when the occasion for upgrade to 2.9
| comes around.
| ~ At 2 A.M.
|
| Would you feel better if we kept the legacy support available longer?
I see this in your email to Tres:

- - We would not enable this by default in 2.9,

Assuming that the note on enabling this in 2.9 is fairly easy to spot (README or
ChangeLog or whatever is appropriate) that should be enough.
I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade or slow the adoption of Zope 3.  I,
along with everyone here want to see this transition go smoothly.  When the
customer only notices the change due to new functionality, ease of use, or
improved performance, then we will know that we have succeeded.
Troy
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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-22 Thread Chris Withers
Stephan Richter wrote:

Nobody is willing to contribute. ZC agreed to change zope.org to Plone so more 
community members can contribute. But noone has stepped up; that's very sad.
Sorry, but I think you'll find several people stepped up, and ZC slapped them in 
the face with a big fat legal document.

That's never a good way to encourage people to help...

Chris

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[Zope-dev] Zope Book at ZopeWiki.org

2004-04-22 Thread Chris Withers
Andreas Jung wrote:

Yeah...just had a look a zopewiki.org it seems to be a great place. I 
wonder why we were not
able to built a such place there were it would belong to: zope.org?
Indeed. I shall see if I can put some input there...

Any chance ZopeWiki.org could become the master location for the book?
It's got a much nicer UI than Zope.org...
Chris

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[Zope-dev] Zope.org: legal problems?

2004-04-22 Thread Chris Withers
Jim Fulton wrote:
- The zope.org community site is a mess. Lots of outstanding problems 
are not fixed, the performance
   of the site is more than poor (it takes ages to login, it takes 
ages to load pages),
   usability (e.g. when you perform a software release) is bad.
Yes, that's a bad situation.  We (meaning the Zope community) need to do
something about this. Sigh.
Then maybe you (being Zope Corp) could remove the big barriers that some people 
perceive in the legal document you want them to sign? That appears to be what's 
killing help on Zope.org.

Me? I don't care, since i know it's neither in ZC's interest or my interest for 
anything to go to court, and even if it did, either side can find a lawyer who 
will tear that piece of paper to shreds to suite whichever side is paying him 
more... I just don't have any time ;-)

Chris

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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-22 Thread Max M
Chris Withers wrote:

Andre Meyer wrote:

With respect to CMS, Plone archetypes are too simplistic for complex 
data/document types and customisation takes too much effort.
totally agree...
I have the same experience.

They keep refactoring how a single small (and relatively uninterresting) 
subset of problems can be solved. In the meantime all the products 
depending on the framework are in a perpetual state of broke.

Furthermore they keep forking the codebase and giving it new names.

I have a few Plone Products, and while it takes a bit to get the 
skeleton set up correctly, it is never that part of the product 
development that takes the most time.

After the setup I can then enjoy that I don't have to fight the 
constraints of a framework.

regards Max M

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[Zope-dev] Bug days?

2004-04-22 Thread Chris Withers
Lennart Regebro wrote:

This means that we need more bugdays. A typical bugday squishes a whole
bunch of bugs. They bugs will be harder to squish the more bugdays we have,
since the easy one will be squished first, but no matter.
Whatever happened to the plan to have a monthly bug day on the last monday of 
each month or somesuch?

Chris

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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-22 Thread Max M
Tim Peters wrote:

[Max M]

Or perhaps an automated nightly Windows build.
[Stephan Richter]

We have talked about it many times before, but simply lack the
bandwidth. Maybe you could provide this for Cygwin?
[Max M]

Argh ... that wasn't fair.

Ok I will try and find some time to look into it.
A problem is that every platform has its own unique bag of miserable quirks.
Well, yeah. I installed cygwin and all the devolpment tools. About 800 
Megs. I could have sorted it, but I wouldn't risk missing libraries, 
tools etc. and harddisk is cheap.

Python compiled fine, both with and without ./configure --with-threads 
Z3 also compiled without a hickup.

But when I tried to go to http://localhost:8080; or 
http://localhost:8080/manage; I just got a  A system error occurred. 
message, and a the following log entry:

2004-04-22T08:47:13 ERROR root PageTemplateFile: Error in template: 
Compilation failed
exceptions.SyntaxError: invalid syntax (string, line 1)

Which is sort of non-helpfull.


Maybe this is (still) relevant to building Zope under Cygwin, maybe not:
http://www.zope.org/Members/dgeorgieff/howto_zope_cvs_on_cygwin/index_html
I didn't need to do all of that to get it build.


What exactly is needed?  I routinely compile Zope2 and Zope3 HEAD on
Windows, using MSVC 6.  I can't make time to set up a fancy snapshot
procedure, but if all people want is (e.g.) a zip file containing the .pyd
files, uploading those once a week wouldn't be a significant time sink.
AS far as I can see that should be enough. If the compiled files, in 
their directory structure, could just be dropped on top of the python 
structure from cvs/subversion I expect that would be enough?

As far as I can see from a quick manual scan of the directory structure 
that's how the code is structured now?

The compiled files are not under version control, and so would not be 
overwritten by updating from cvs/subversion.

regards Max M

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Re: [Zope-dev] The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-22 Thread Chris Withers
Andre Meyer wrote:

I have been developing for Zope for about half a year now and it took 
considerable effort to get anything going.
I would suggest that's because you chose to use what are, imho, overly complex 
products ;-)

With respect to CMS, Plone archetypes are too simplistic for complex 
data/document types and customisation takes too much effort.
totally agree...

Chris

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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope Book at ZopeWiki.org

2004-04-22 Thread Chris McDonough
On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 02:56, Chris Withers wrote:
 Any chance ZopeWiki.org could become the master location for the book?
 It's got a much nicer UI than Zope.org...

Every few weeks or so I go and clean out (sometimes hundreds of) test
and fglrldjksjds and you suck! comments in the BackTalk version of
the book and I'm tremendously thankful at that point that I don't need
to actually read the text to distinguish a comment from a canonical
part of the book, but I still have the comment in-situ to see its
context.

Before the Zope.org transition, I had configured the books to be
commentable only by authenticated users to make inane and content-free
comments harder for people to make, but it still happened.  When the
transition was done, it turned out that authentication was no longer
required, I didn't bother to turn it back on; I figured it's more
important to lower the bar for commenters in order to get the best
feedback possible anyway, so I just go clean it manually every so often
and keep the good parts.  It works pretty well, and I'm pretty happy
with BackTalk for this purpose.

Wikis are great for ad-hoc sorts of things but not so great when it's
useful to maintain a distinct level of separation between reader and
writer.  I can also generate a PDF of the book at will from the BackTalk
version, which I couldn't do (or at least I don't think I could do
easily) with ZWiki.  That said, I think zopewiki.org is a good thing and
I encourage folks to contribute.

If the Zope.org problems persist and I'm unable to find the time to fix
them, I will host the development of the book somewhere else, but it
will almost certainly be hosted with BackTalk.

- C



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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope Book at ZopeWiki.org

2004-04-22 Thread Lennart Regebro
From: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Any chance ZopeWiki.org could become the master location for the book?

It's gonna be hard to get a printable book out of a Wiki...




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[Zope-dev] Re: Bug days?

2004-04-22 Thread Lennart Regebro
From: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Whatever happened to the plan to have a monthly bug day on the last monday
of
 each month or somesuch?

Nothing, as usual, I guess. Even since bugdays where first thought of, more
of then and more regular bugdays have been promised, but it doesn't happen.



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[Zope-dev] List of bugs which can be closed

2004-04-22 Thread Maik Jablonski
Hi,

there are some bugs in the Zope-Collector which IMHO can be closed. Maybe
someone with the appropriate rights has some spare time to check the
links...

Cheers, Maik

Fixed, but not closed:
http://zope.org/Collectors/Zope/1004
http://zope.org/Collectors/Zope/1096

Not Zope-Core-Problems:
http://zope.org/Collectors/Zope/1008
http://zope.org/Collectors/Zope/1024
http://zope.org/Collectors/Zope/1040
http://zope.org/Collectors/Zope/1094
http://zope.org/Collectors/Zope/1115
http://zope.org/Collectors/Zope/1116
http://zope.org/Collectors/Zope/1155
http://zope.org/Collectors/Zope/1228

Not reproducable:
http://zope.org/Collectors/Zope/1033

Not acceptable:
http://zope.org/Collectors/Zope/895
http://zope.org/Collectors/Zope/1242

Not up2date anymore:
http://zope.org/Collectors/Zope/591
http://zope.org/Collectors/Zope/943



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[Zope-dev] [Q] Pickle support for C wrapper and ZEO

2004-04-22 Thread Ames Andreas (MPA/DF)
Hi all,

I'm reposting here because I had no luck on [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I'm in the course of low-level wrapping the ODBC api.  Just in case
you wonder:  I know of mxODBC and pyodbc, they don't fit my needs as
well license-wise as technically (I want better metadata access,
thread-safety etc.).

I'll use my wrapper from within Zope.  There will be some python
wrapper around the low-level stuff and I wonder if it makes sense to
add pickle-support to that python wrapper.

The ODBC api is object-based and exhibits four object types:
environment, connection, statement and descriptor objects each of
which has a set of methods and properties.  Pickle-wise I'm not so
concerned about persistence across shutdown/restart cycles (I think
it's reasonable to re-create your ODBC environments, connections
etc. after restart) but rather about consistency across ZEO-instances.
My lack of experience makes me ask here for expert advise.

1)  Does the ZEO scenario demand some pickle support, e. g. to
use consitent environments/connections etc. across ZEO instances
or do I just misunderstand ZEO?

2)  If pickle support is a good idea:  What scope would you find
reasonable?  I. e. I can imagine that persistence of
environments/descriptors could be useful while persistent
connections/statements could cause more trouble than they are
worth.

As you can see the whole thing isn't very clear to me and so I'd
appreciate your comments.


TIA,

andreas


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[Zope-dev] performance tuning of ZODB

2004-04-22 Thread Syver Enstad

I've used the cache_size paramter to the constructor of the DB to good
effect. Are there any further gotchas for ensuring that the ZODB stays
in memory as much as possible?


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[Zope-dev] List of bugs which can be closed

2004-04-22 Thread Clemens Robbenhaar

Maik Jablonski writes:
  Hi,
  
  there are some bugs in the Zope-Collector which IMHO can be closed. 

 [...]
 
  Not up2date anymore:
  http://zope.org/Collectors/Zope/591
  http://zope.org/Collectors/Zope/943
  
and:

  http://zope.org/Collectors/Zope/599

(if someone minds...)

Cheers,
Clemens

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Re: [Zope-dev] performance tuning of ZODB

2004-04-22 Thread Toby Dickenson
On Thursday 22 April 2004 10:42, Syver Enstad wrote:
 I've used the cache_size paramter to the constructor of the DB to good
 effect. Are there any further gotchas for ensuring that the ZODB stays
 in memory as much as possible?

Memory usage scales proportional to the number of threads.  Reducing the 
number of worker threads lets you increase the per-thread cache size.

-- 
Toby Dickenson


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[Zope-dev] Re: On a constructive note: Zope 2.8

2004-04-22 Thread Jim Fulton
Jim Fulton wrote:
Martijn Faassen wrote:

Hey there,

I understand from:

http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/Zope2.8/MilestonePlan

Zope 2.8 is now planned for june.


This is, of course, a function of people's availability to help.

I still need to fix ZClasses, and I need to get through the Zope X3.0
to-do list first.
  If Zope 2.8 is indeed released by june

this could fit fairly well with my own (also delayed :) plans for 
using this facility in Silva. The obvious area I could try to 
contribute is in integrating Zope 3 interfaces in Zope 2.


Great!
I meant to mention that Kapil has offered to work on this.
I suggest you get with him to see if he nees any help or if it
makes sense to collaborate in some way.
Jim

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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Proposal: Rename zope package

2004-04-22 Thread Jim Fulton
Troy Farrell wrote:
...
I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade or slow the adoption of Zope 
3.  I,
along with everyone here want to see this transition go smoothly.  When the
customer only notices the change due to new functionality, ease of use, or
improved performance, then we will know that we have succeeded.
This exactly the sort of feedback we need.

Thanks.

Jim

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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope Book at ZopeWiki.org

2004-04-22 Thread Stephan Richter
On Thursday 22 April 2004 03:31, Lennart Regebro wrote:
 Today 03:31:57

 From: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  Any chance ZopeWiki.org could become the master location for the book?

 It's gonna be hard to get a printable book out of a Wiki...

I tried this and I can tell you that a Wiki is not the right format for a 
book. While it lowers the entrance points, it is far too simplistic. I 
eventually changed my master to LaTeX, where I can add as much meta-data and 
other markup (especially for an index, which is crucial) easily and then I 
try to create Wiki-friendly STX files from that. 

When people change things in the Wiki, I use the diffs to update the masters. 
This turned out to be a very good move, since sometimes the corrections 
change the meaning of what I intended to say. 

Additionally, I can now always create a beautiful PDF in less than a minute.

Regards,
Stephan
-- 
Stephan Richter
CBU Physics  Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student)
Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training

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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-22 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Jim Fulton wrote:
2. Especially Andreas expressed his worries about the current release 
policy in Zope 2 and its future regarding maintainance and support. I 
have to say that I share some of his skepticism regarding Zope 2. I 
personally have never fully understood ZC's reasons for the release 
roadmap as it is. I might not see the big picture, but I know I would 
have done it differently. I've always tried to make that clear in the 
past.
I'm surprised to read this. Could you be more specific about your concerns?
I should have said the release roadmap as it WAS. I was very skeptical 
about the original plans to make Zope3 backward compatible. I am still 
very skeptical about the ability to add conversion scripts. They would 
be incredibly tedious painful to write and I personally would rather 
migrate code manually than trust a script. After all, the paradigms have 
changed a lot.

I see it as realistic as Stephan. There is no sane migration to Zope3 
than the one of refactoring code. Now, in order for that to happen, we 
need the CA in Zope2, so people can start asap. My only criticism has 
been and still is that the CA hasn't been introduced to Zope2 earlier. 
Now, I know that a) the CA has been refactored a lot since its invention 
(and IMO only for the good) and b) there was a lack of resources to do 
that actual integration. That's why I've never declared anyone guilty 
for it (which is why you may be surprised by this).

It sure would have been nice if Gary had shared his experience with 
FrankenZope a little earlier. I remember Martijn being quite eager to 
experiment with it, too. But that's the only constructive criticism I have.

Philipp

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Zope3, CMS, IDEs (was: [Zope-dev] The bleak Future of Zope?)

2004-04-22 Thread Seb Bacon
Joachim Werner wrote:
There are quite a few Zope-based CMS solutions out there, and most of 
them are better than their commercial counterparts in many respects. But 
if we had managed to start a joint CMS effort (other than CMF, which is 
a failure by design) two or three years ago things would look even 
better now.
It would be great to start something like a Zope3 CMS interest group up, 
to pool all our CMS experience - start collecting requirements, etc. 
Seems like a mighty large task, though :-)

I'd like to at least have a session on this topic at Europython.

What we should work on in the future is development tools for Zope. If I 
get the stuff I know about Zope 3 right it should be relatively easy to 
write IDEs (or plugins for existing IDEs)...
I know it's said to be slow, but Eclipse has some pretty major momentum 
behind it... has anyone round here looked at it in detail?  I guess it 
requires you to write loads of Java to produce new plugins :-(

Finally we need industry-strength performance. 
 We are just lacking the performance (mostly thanks
to Python being a beautiful, but not really fast language).
I disagree that performance is a problem in Zope 2.  With a combination 
of profiling to eliminate bottlenecks, ZEO, and Squid, Zope hums along 
beautifully.  We are consulting for a company that is in the process of 
replacing their Java front-end with Zope.  They have huge amounts of 
traffic, and are impressed with Zope's performance compared with their 
comparable Java system.

Seb

P.S. I don't agree with your pessimistic assessment of CMF, or Plone. 
They're both good at what they do.

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Re: [Zope-dev] performance tuning of ZODB

2004-04-22 Thread Syver Enstad
Toby Dickenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Thursday 22 April 2004 10:42, Syver Enstad wrote:
  I've used the cache_size paramter to the constructor of the DB to good
  effect. Are there any further gotchas for ensuring that the ZODB stays
  in memory as much as possible?
 
 Memory usage scales proportional to the number of threads.  Reducing the 
 number of worker threads lets you increase the per-thread cache size.

I don't use connection per thread semantics but I think I understand
what you mean. I should pass a lower number than the default to the
pool_size keyword argument for the DB constructor?

What about the other arguments to the DB constructor?
cache_deactivate_after sounds interesting. Since I am running ZODB in
a web server I don't want the data to timeout and disappear from
memory since every object I have should be loaded at all times.



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Re: [Zope-dev] performance tuning of ZODB

2004-04-22 Thread Toby Dickenson
On Thursday 22 April 2004 11:43, Syver Enstad wrote:

 cache_deactivate_after sounds interesting. Since I am running ZODB in
 a web server I don't want the data to timeout and disappear from
 memory since every object I have should be loaded at all times.

Thats why ZODB ignores that parameter now ;-)

-- 
Toby Dickenson


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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-22 Thread Martijn Faassen
Jim Fulton wrote:
Martijn Faassen wrote:

Jim Fulton wrote:

I'm surprised to read this. Could you be more specific about your 
concerns?


Did you read Andreas Jung's mail? He was pretty specific, but I had to 
hunt around as in my mailreader his reply had broken the thread.


I was responding to Philipp, not Andreas.

Yeah, but I figured you might not have seen Andreas's mail as I had some 
trouble finding it myself, so I was trying to be helpful. :)

Regards,

Martijn

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[Zope-dev] Re: Proposal: Rename zope package

2004-04-22 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Jim Fulton wrote:
Philipp von Weitershausen wrote:

Why would they switch to Zope 2.8 if not for the component architecture? 
To stay current? To get MVCC? To get new-style extension classes, and
thus access to many modern Python features. Later releases will provide
benefits beyond just the Z3 features.
But, if they are willing to investigate into new features, new-style 
extensions classes and all that, a small package rename from Zope to 
Zope2 should be just as manageable.

Philipp

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[Zope-dev] Re: Zope Book at ZopeWiki.org

2004-04-22 Thread Fred Yankowski
On Thu, Apr 22, 2004 at 06:07:10AM -0400, Stephan Richter wrote:
 I tried this and I can tell you that a Wiki is not the right format for a 
 book. While it lowers the entrance points, it is far too simplistic. I 
 eventually changed my master to LaTeX, where I can add as much meta-data and 
 other markup (especially for an index, which is crucial) easily and then I 
 try to create Wiki-friendly STX files from that. 

Would this help...

LatexWiki is a patch to the ZWiki package that allows
rendering of in-line LaTeX.

http://mcelrath.org/Notes/LatexWiki

-- 
Fred Yankowski  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   tel: +1.630.879.1312
OntoSys, IncPGP keyID: 7B449345fax: +1.630.879.1370
www.ontosys.com 38W242 Deerpath Rd, Batavia, IL 60510-9461, USA

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[Zope-dev] Re: On a constructive note: Zope 2.8

2004-04-22 Thread Martijn Faassen
Jim Fulton wrote:
Have interfaces stabilized enough to start this work, or should I wait 
until next month (may is indicated on the planning).
I think so.
You think I can start now or you think I should wait? :)

What steps need to be taken concretely before such integration is 
considered completed? I know the package rename discussion rename 
(zope to z) in Zope 3 is related to this. 
That's the big one.  I think I'd do this after we do the svn conversion.
I *hope* to do that next week.
Okay, I'll wait for this then. :)

Regards,

Martijn

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[Zope-dev] Re: Zope3, CMS, IDEs (was: The bleak Future of Zope?)

2004-04-22 Thread Paul Everitt
On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:15:58 +0100, Seb Bacon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Joachim Werner wrote:
There are quite a few Zope-based CMS solutions out there, and most of  
them are better than their commercial counterparts in many respects.  
But if we had managed to start a joint CMS effort (other than CMF,  
which is a failure by design) two or three years ago things would look  
even better now.
It would be great to start something like a Zope3 CMS interest group up,  
to pool all our CMS experience - start collecting requirements, etc.  
Seems like a mighty large task, though :-)

I'd like to at least have a session on this topic at Europython.
Heimo and I have proposed a panel with the CMS's for Zope, to discuss the  
future of content management in Zope.  My goal is to have a session that  
is structured enough to actually make a constructive step forward, if only  
in understanding and agreement.  Particularly regarding Zope3.

The panelists would be the implementors of current CMSs for Zope.  How  
bout you, Silva, CPS, and Plone?  Any others?

--Paul



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Re: [Zope-dev] [Q] Pickle support for C wrapper and ZEO

2004-04-22 Thread Ames Andreas (MPA/DF)
Hello Martin,

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Martin Kretschmar) writes:

putting this back on list, hope it's ok with you.

 Hello,

 I was once debugging an application which usually
 crashed after 2-3 days during load tests. It was
 doing a lot of database operations. The access
 was to a Microsoft SQL Server.

 There has been once a warning, that constantly
 creating and deleting CDatabase-Objects leeds to
 memory leaks. So the application had been written
 to reuse a given CDatabase object.

 The occasional crashes, shown to be somewhere in
 the ODBC code, were gone, when each Thread got back
 exactly his last CDatabase object in use.

 In this sense my definition of threadsafe is not
 always the way Microsoft sees it.

 Regards,
   Martin

Thanks for the hint, but I won't use MFC in my code (portability).
I'm currently using unixODBC to get started and hope to be able to
preserve source code compatibility with MS's ODBC Driver Manager (and
eventually iODBC if needed).  If there are bugs in the platform code
then these will bother me not before some time from now because I'm
still wrapping all (or rather a subset of) those SQL... functions
which live in sql[ext].h.  Currently my own refcount leaks are much
worse than any driver manager's memory leaks could ever be ;-).


cheers,

andreas


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[Zope-dev] Re: On a constructive note: Zope 2.8

2004-04-22 Thread Martijn Faassen
Jim Fulton wrote:
Jim Fulton wrote:
this could fit fairly well with my own (also delayed :) plans for 
using this facility in Silva. The obvious area I could try to 
contribute is in integrating Zope 3 interfaces in Zope 2.

I meant to mention that Kapil has offered to work on this.
I suggest you get with him to see if he nees any help or if it
makes sense to collaborate in some way.
Okay, I'll try to hook up with Kapil on the interface package work.

Getting the interface package to work in Zope 2.x in my mind basically 
opens up a lot of possibilities straight away.

Regards,

Martijn

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AW: [Zope-dev] Re: Zope3, CMS, IDEs (was: The bleak Future of Zope?)

2004-04-22 Thread Roger ineichen
Paul Everitt wrote
 
 On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:15:58 +0100, Seb Bacon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Joachim Werner wrote:
  There are quite a few Zope-based CMS solutions out there, 
 and most of
  them are better than their commercial counterparts in many 
 respects.  
  But if we had managed to start a joint CMS effort (other 
 than CMF,  
  which is a failure by design) two or three years ago 
 things would look  
  even better now.
 
  It would be great to start something like a Zope3 CMS 
 interest group 
  up,
  to pool all our CMS experience - start collecting 
 requirements, etc.  
  Seems like a mighty large task, though :-)
 
  I'd like to at least have a session on this topic at Europython.
 
 Heimo and I have proposed a panel with the CMS's for Zope, to 
 discuss the  
 future of content management in Zope.  My goal is to have a 
 session that  
 is structured enough to actually make a constructive step 
 forward, if only  
 in understanding and agreement.  Particularly regarding Zope3.
 
 The panelists would be the implementors of current CMSs for 
 Zope.  How  
 bout you, Silva, CPS, and Plone?  Any others?

Yes, we work on a open source framework based on Zope3
called tiks. 

I'm interested in this, can you point me to the proposal?


 --Paul
 
 
 
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[Zope-dev] Zope Bug Day Next Thursday (April 29)

2004-04-22 Thread Casey Duncan
I proposed this yesterday, but I wanted to make sure that everyone say
it. I think we should have a bug day, we're long overdue. I'm proposing
we hold it on Thursday, April 29.

We'll convene on the #zope-dev irc channel.

-Casey


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[Zope-dev] Re: Proposal: Rename zope package

2004-04-22 Thread Jim Fulton
Philipp von Weitershausen wrote:
Jim Fulton wrote:

Philipp von Weitershausen wrote:

Why would they switch to Zope 2.8 if not for the component architecture? 


To stay current? To get MVCC? To get new-style extension classes, and
thus access to many modern Python features. Later releases will provide
benefits beyond just the Z3 features.


But, if they are willing to investigate into new features, new-style 
extensions classes and all that, a small package rename from Zope to 
Zope2 should be just as manageable.
My point was that Zope 2 will make advances independent of Zope 3.
Zope 3 technology isn't the only reason for people to upgrade.
Also, sometimes, people *need* to upgrade to retain support. That may
be the only reason to upgrade for some folks.  (Perhaps we, the community,
need to provide better management of old releases, but that's a different topic.)
We need better ways to manage change. Up to now, Zope 3 has established
a culture of embracing change and damning backward compatibility. That was
exactly the right culture for Zope 3.  When Zope X3.0 enters beta, however,
we'll need to shift to embrace change *and* backward compatibility through an
orderly change process.  We will need to figure out what that process is.
Up to now, Zope 2 hasn't managed change very well. Historically, Zope 2
has put expediency and backward compatibility before cleanliness and elegance.
I'm a major offender here.  We will often pile hacks on top of hacks to
retain backward compatibility.  This was driven to an extensive degree
by practical realities, but it was also a result of a lack of appreciation
of the benefits of architectural restructuring and the lack of a change process.
We didn't so much evolve as accumulate.  We must learn to evolve.
I'm optimistic that, as Zope 3 stabilizes and begins to merge with Zope 2, we
will establish a new healthier culture of change and compatibility.
Jim

--
Jim Fulton   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   Python Powered!
CTO  (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org
Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com   http://www.zope.org
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[Zope-dev] Reflections on the Zope 2 to Zope 3 transition

2004-04-22 Thread Jim Fulton
Philipp von Weitershausen wrote:
Jim Fulton wrote:

2. Especially Andreas expressed his worries about the current release 
policy in Zope 2 and its future regarding maintainance and support. I 
have to say that I share some of his skepticism regarding Zope 2. I 
personally have never fully understood ZC's reasons for the release 
roadmap as it is. I might not see the big picture, but I know I would 
have done it differently. I've always tried to make that clear in the 
past.


I'm surprised to read this. Could you be more specific about your 
concerns?


I should have said the release roadmap as it WAS. I was very skeptical 
about the original plans to make Zope3 backward compatible. I am still 
very skeptical about the ability to add conversion scripts. They would 
be incredibly tedious painful to write and I personally would rather 
migrate code manually than trust a script. After all, the paradigms have 
changed a lot.

I see it as realistic as Stephan. There is no sane migration to Zope3 
than the one of refactoring code. Now, in order for that to happen, we 
need the CA in Zope2, so people can start asap. My only criticism has 
been and still is that the CA hasn't been introduced to Zope2 earlier. 
Now, I know that a) the CA has been refactored a lot since its invention 
(and IMO only for the good) and b) there was a lack of resources to do 
that actual integration. That's why I've never declared anyone guilty 
for it (which is why you may be surprised by this).

It sure would have been nice if Gary had shared his experience with 
FrankenZope a little earlier. I remember Martijn being quite eager to 
experiment with it, too. But that's the only constructive criticism I have.
So your concerns are really about the Z2 to Z3 transition plan, not about
the Zope release process.
Before I get into the main topic of my response, I'll note that I'm a
good bit more optimistic about backward compatability than you are.
I just have an intuition that we'll be able to do much more than you
or Stephan expect. It's an intuition, not a promise. I can't prove it.
Only time will tell. :)
I know that lots of people are concerned by the uncertainlty about the
future transition.  This is a tough situation.  I made a number of
tradeoffs that put us in this situtaion.  I think they were the right
tradeoffs and I'd make them again.  But, as with any tradeoff, we've
had to balence positives and negatives.  Let me explain:
Zope 3 has always been a relatively small project.  Within Zope
Corporation, I'm the only one that has worked on Zope 3 full time
for any length of time.  As CTO, even my time on Zope 3 is
not truly full time, but it's closer than for anyone else at ZC.
Customer work (Zope 2), important community issues (like this thread,
or like the security issues we uncovered last fall) take precedent.
Other people working on Zope 3 have day jobs.  They have to go to
school or or do customer work (usually in Zope 2) to make a living.
(Of course, you know this Philipp. :)
I'm not complaining. This is reality and a reality we planned for.

I made two choices that were controversial:

1. I decided not to be encumbered by backward compatability.  This was
   refactoring mercelessly applied in the extreme. This had the result
   that, except in a few areas, we did start from scratch.
   Pros: We had freedom to think abstracty about how Zope should work, and how
 we could make the experience for the developer as good as possible.
 The premise of not being backward compatible with Zope 2, also
 made us realize that we didn't have to be backward compatible with
 our own Zope 3 work.  We were free to try things out, see how they worked
 and often, totally change them to make them better.  Many core parts
 of Zope 3 have been redone, some more than once. This wouldn't have been
 possible if we had been trying to be backward compatible.
   Cons: We're not backward compatible.  Will we ever be? I'm confident that we
 will have a decent transition.  I don't know what shape that will take
 but I am still confident.  Will there be bumps along the way? Definately.
 The recent issue with the conflicts between the Zope and zope package
 is a good example.
   While many might not agree with me, I am glad I made this decision. I would
   make it again. It was the right decision for Zope.
   If we had a lot more resources, we might have been able to pay more attention
   to Zope 2 compatability, although I'm not sure that that would have been the right 
thing
   to do.
2. I decided not to think much about the transition until Zope 3 has gotten farther 
along.
   The transition is a road from where we are to where we're going.  It's awfully hard
   to build a road when the destination is changing.  This means that, as the Zope Pope
   and CTO of Zope Corporation, I can promise that the road will be built, but I can't 
tell
   you what precise route the road 

RE: [Zope-dev] Reflections on the Zope 2 to Zope 3 transition

2004-04-22 Thread Jean-Francois . Doyon
I know I'm new here, but I think this may work to my benefit in this case
...

+1 on everything Jim just said!

Unlike some others it seems, I look at Zope almost uniquely as framework
for
building web applications. An API or SDK if you will.  As such, I think it's
internal software desing and architecture has to be priority number one.
Otherwise anything you layer on top of it is doomed from the start.

To those people that just want an application server that works, such as
CPS or Plone, this should still be a very good thing. Having a much
higher quality base will mean better end-user usable products in the long
run ...

Personally, I'm fully expecting to do a full re-design of my code for Zope
3.
And that's fine, I like the idea.  Given the radical changes in design, I
would want to make sure my applications/products take full advantage of the
new
features.  I'm actually counting on several of them to do things like proper
multi-lingual support, workflow and publishing control.

I might actually NOT bother with migrating slowly through 2.8 and
2.9, that seems dangerous to me ... the potential for kludges and nasty work
arounds seems great. We'll have to see. Can't wait for ExtensionClass to go
though!!

In the mean time, I'll be trying to give back to the Zope community by
working on my Subversion storage idea :)

Thanks,
J.F.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jim Fulton
Sent: April 22, 2004 10:47 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Zope-dev] Reflections on the Zope 2 to Zope 3 transition


Philipp von Weitershausen wrote:
 Jim Fulton wrote:
 
 2. Especially Andreas expressed his worries about the current release 
 policy in Zope 2 and its future regarding maintainance and support. I 
 have to say that I share some of his skepticism regarding Zope 2. I 
 personally have never fully understood ZC's reasons for the release 
 roadmap as it is. I might not see the big picture, but I know I would 
 have done it differently. I've always tried to make that clear in the 
 past.


 I'm surprised to read this. Could you be more specific about your 
 concerns?
 
 
 I should have said the release roadmap as it WAS. I was very skeptical 
 about the original plans to make Zope3 backward compatible. I am still 
 very skeptical about the ability to add conversion scripts. They would 
 be incredibly tedious painful to write and I personally would rather 
 migrate code manually than trust a script. After all, the paradigms have 
 changed a lot.
 
 I see it as realistic as Stephan. There is no sane migration to Zope3 
 than the one of refactoring code. Now, in order for that to happen, we 
 need the CA in Zope2, so people can start asap. My only criticism has 
 been and still is that the CA hasn't been introduced to Zope2 earlier. 
 Now, I know that a) the CA has been refactored a lot since its invention 
 (and IMO only for the good) and b) there was a lack of resources to do 
 that actual integration. That's why I've never declared anyone guilty 
 for it (which is why you may be surprised by this).
 
 It sure would have been nice if Gary had shared his experience with 
 FrankenZope a little earlier. I remember Martijn being quite eager to 
 experiment with it, too. But that's the only constructive criticism I
have.

So your concerns are really about the Z2 to Z3 transition plan, not about
the Zope release process.

Before I get into the main topic of my response, I'll note that I'm a
good bit more optimistic about backward compatability than you are.
I just have an intuition that we'll be able to do much more than you
or Stephan expect. It's an intuition, not a promise. I can't prove it.
Only time will tell. :)

I know that lots of people are concerned by the uncertainlty about the
future transition.  This is a tough situation.  I made a number of
tradeoffs that put us in this situtaion.  I think they were the right
tradeoffs and I'd make them again.  But, as with any tradeoff, we've
had to balence positives and negatives.  Let me explain:

Zope 3 has always been a relatively small project.  Within Zope
Corporation, I'm the only one that has worked on Zope 3 full time
for any length of time.  As CTO, even my time on Zope 3 is
not truly full time, but it's closer than for anyone else at ZC.
Customer work (Zope 2), important community issues (like this thread,
or like the security issues we uncovered last fall) take precedent.

Other people working on Zope 3 have day jobs.  They have to go to
school or or do customer work (usually in Zope 2) to make a living.
(Of course, you know this Philipp. :)

I'm not complaining. This is reality and a reality we planned for.

I made two choices that were controversial:

1. I decided not to be encumbered by backward compatability.  This was
refactoring mercelessly applied in the extreme. This had the result
that, except in a few areas, we did start from scratch.

Pros: We had freedom to think 

Re: [Zope-dev] performance tuning of ZODB

2004-04-22 Thread Syver Enstad
Toby Dickenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Thursday 22 April 2004 11:43, Syver Enstad wrote:
 
  cache_deactivate_after sounds interesting. Since I am running ZODB in
  a web server I don't want the data to timeout and disappear from
  memory since every object I have should be loaded at all times.
 
 Thats why ZODB ignores that parameter now ;-)

Good :-)

I have a strange case here with ReadConflictErrors. I don't know if
this is covered already but anyway. I am using ZODB 3.2 so this might
be fixed in 3.3 for all I know.

Just replace the twisted stuff with the standard lib unittest module to
have it work on a computer without twisted installed.

import pdb
import sys
import time
import threading
import os

from ZODB import DB
from ZODB.PersistentList import PersistentList
from ZODB.FileStorage import FileStorage
from ZODB.POSException import ReadConflictError
from Persistence import Persistent

from twisted.trial import unittest


class Computer(Persistent):
def __init__(self, oidInteger):
self._oid = oidInteger
self._articleStatus = None
self._endUserPrice = None
self._location = None

def setArticleStatus(self, anObject):
self._articleStatus = anObject

def setEndUserPrice(self, anObject):
self._endUserPrice = anObject

def setLocation(self, anObject):
self._location = anObject


class MockArticleDb(Persistent):
def __init__(self):
self._articles = PersistentList()

def addArticle(self, anArticle):
self._articles.append(anArticle)

def articles(self):
return self._articles



class TestReadConflictError(unittest.TestCase):
def setUp(self):
try:
os.unlink('test.fs')
except OSError, err:
pass
storage = FileStorage(
'test.fs',
create=True)
db = DB(storage, cache_size=10)
connection = db.open()
connection.setLocalTransaction()
connection.root()['articledb'] = MockArticleDb()
computer = Computer(1)
computer.setArticleStatus('For sale')
computer.setEndUserPrice(10050)
computer.setLocation('H0101')
connection.root()['articledb'].addArticle(computer)
connection.getTransaction().commit()
connection.close()
db.close()
storage.close()

storage = FileStorage(
'test.fs',
create=False)
self._db = DB(storage, cache_size=10)


def writeStuff(self, connection):
begin = time.time()
connection.sync()
articleDb = connection.root()['articledb']
eachBegin = time.time()
computer = Computer(1)
computer.setArticleStatus('For sale')
computer.setEndUserPrice(10050)
computer.setLocation('H0101')
articleDb.addArticle(computer)
connection.getTransaction().commit()
print 'write list length', len(articleDb.articles())

def doRead(self, oddRead, connection):
tryCount = 1
articleDb = connection.root()['articledb']
try:
for article in articleDb.articles():
pass
except ReadConflictError, err:
if True: 
connection.sync()
else: # this also works
connection.close()
connection = self._db.open()
connection.setLocalTransaction()
for article in articleDb.articles():
pass
tryCount += 1
print 'read list length', len(articleDb.articles())
if oddRead:
# on first, third, fifth read we get a ReadConflictError
self.assertEquals(
2,
tryCount)
else:
# but on second, fourth and so forth we don't
self.assertEquals(
1,
tryCount)

def testProvokeReadConflictError(self):
conn2 = self._db.open()
conn2.setLocalTransaction()
for each in range(1, 11): # 1000 works also but takes a bit of time
begin = time.time()
connection = self._db.open()
connection.setLocalTransaction()
self.writeStuff(conn2)
oddRead = each % 2 != 0
self.doRead(oddRead, connection)
connection.close()


if __name__ == '__main__':
from twisted.scripts.trial import run
import sys
sys.argv.append(sys.argv[0])
run()
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RE: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-22 Thread Tim Peters
[Max M]
 Well, yeah. I installed cygwin and all the devolpment tools. About 800
 Megs. I could have sorted it, but I wouldn't risk missing libraries,
 tools etc. and harddisk is cheap.

Same here (although my old laptop doesn't have enough disk space remaining
to download the whole thing).

 Python compiled fine, both with and without ./configure
 --with-threads Z3 also compiled without a hickup.

Python 2.3.3 comes with current Cygwin, so there shouldn't be a need to
build Python (or maybe there is?  I don't know; the one that comes with
Cygwin has threads enabled already:

$ python
Python 2.3.3 (#1, Dec 30 2003, 08:29:25)
[GCC 3.3.1 (cygming special)] on cygwin
Type help, copyright, credits or license for more information.
 import thread
 def f():
...print 'hi!'
...
 thread.start_new_thread(f, ())
10852896
 hi!

).

I didn't have any problems compiling anything, I hit instant disasters
whenever code tried to spawn a new process (mystery errors under WinXP
Pro, segfault and system freeze under Win98SE).

 But when I tried to go to http://localhost:8080; or
 http://localhost:8080/manage; I just got a  A system error
 occurred. message, and a the following log entry:

 2004-04-22T08:47:13 ERROR root PageTemplateFile: Error in template:
 Compilation failed
 exceptions.SyntaxError: invalid syntax (string, line 1)

 Which is sort of non-helpfull.

Sorry, no clues here.  Perhaps someone else knows how to get Cygwin to work.

...

 What exactly is needed?  I routinely compile Zope2 and Zope3 HEAD on
 Windows, using MSVC 6.  I can't make time to set up a fancy snapshot
 procedure, but if all people want is (e.g.) a zip file containing
 the .pyd files, uploading those once a week wouldn't be a
 significant time sink.

 AS far as I can see that should be enough. If the compiled files, in
 their directory structure, could just be dropped on top of the python
 structure from cvs/subversion I expect that would be enough?

No way to tell without trying.  I don't know whether you're building Zope2
or Zope3, but since this is the zope-dev list I assume the former.  Try

http://zope.org/Members/tim_one/Zope2-20040422.zip/file_view

and let us know what happens!  As the comment there says, it's just .pyd
files from Zope2 HEAD, compiled with MSVC 6.  This is from an inplace
(setup.py build_ext -i) build on Windows, from a current Zope HEAD
checkout.

 As far as I can see from a quick manual scan of the directory
 structure that's how the code is structured now?

 The compiled files are not under version control, and so would not be
 overwritten by updating from cvs/subversion.

That's correct.


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RE: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-22 Thread Tim Peters
[Tim Peters]
 ...
 No way to tell without trying.  I don't know whether you're
 building Zope2 or Zope3, but since this is the zope-dev list I
 assume the former.  Try

 http://zope.org/Members/tim_one/Zope2-20040422.zip/file_view

 and let us know what happens!  As the comment there says, it's just
 .pyd files from Zope2 HEAD, compiled with MSVC 6.  This is from
 an inplace (setup.py build_ext -i) build on Windows, from a
 current Zope HEAD checkout.

FYI, there's a similar zip file now containing the same kind of thing for a
current Zope3 checkout (s/Zope2/Zope3/ in the URL).

If this is good enough for people trying to work from CVS on Windows, let me
know and I'll update them from time to time, and maybe move them to a saner
location.  If it's not good enough, sorry, but I don't anticipate having
enough time to do more than this (which is just a trivial zip+upload step
beyond the builds I have to do anyway).


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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-22 Thread Simon Michael
What a great discussion.

I'm not sure I can catch up and make a single coherent reply, so I'll 
just drop this into the stew right here: I think Zope 3 is firmly on the 
right track. At the same time let us not forget the ideas around
http://www.dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html .

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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-22 Thread Simon Michael
Casey Duncan wrote:
On a bright note, I think zopewiki.org could change that. It *greatly*
lowers the bar on contributing
That is exactly the intent. We have needed this since the days of the ZDP.

 I see no reason why it being or not being on Zope.org is relevant. Its a
 social thing: Simon decided to do something and had the software,
Not *just* social. I would say there seem to be 
social/structural/technical/perceptual reasons why such a thing simply 
cannot exist at ZC-managed zope.org right now. So, while zope.org would 
be the ideal url (and I tried to nudge zope.org in this direction for 
years without coming across as a zealot) I think there are actually some 
advantages to having a slightly separate docs site. More modular, scales 
better. Of course the more integration and interlinking the better.

Constructively-intended zope.org criticism: zope.org is the zope 
community's biggest documentation asset. And yet at this point it is 
indeed also a big fat piano sitting on the windpipe of zope 
documentation, and hence the zope community itself.

This is despite the best of intentions on all sides. To say (as Stephan 
has) that it's due to lack of volunteers is wrong. Many of us have 
tried. Perhaps ZC expects more from a volunteer than is realistic. 
Compare with other successful successful open source projects.

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Re: Zope3, CMS, IDEs (was: [Zope-dev] The bleak Future of Zope?)

2004-04-22 Thread Joachim Werner
Hi! 
 
 It would be great to start something like a Zope3 CMS interest group up, 
 to pool all our CMS experience - start collecting requirements, etc.  
 Seems like a mighty large task, though :-) 
 
I've proposed that a couple of times already. There are two problems in real 
life: 
 
1) Somebody has to take care of managing the project. We need at least a web 
page and a first draft of what we want to accomplish. My idea always was to 
start with a feature matrix of the current Zope-based and competing systems 
and then add a wish list of things that we need for Zope 3, based on the 
existing products' implementations. 
 
2) If politics take over, things will quickly fall apart. I for my part would 
be happy to work together with people who are currently using Plone, but I'd 
not want to work on a Plone 3. So the effort should aim at the common grounds 
all the CMS have, not on the individual philosophies that drive the different 
projects ... 
  
 I'd like to at least have a session on this topic at Europython. 
Unfortunately I probably won't be there this year. 
 
 I know it's said to be slow, but Eclipse has some pretty major momentum 
 behind it... has anyone round here looked at it in detail?  I guess it 
 requires you to write loads of Java to produce new plugins :-( 
 
Well, it is becoming some kind of standard. But my personal feeling is that 
we'd need something fresh that is focussed on Zope. That would make things 
easier. Whenever I use an IDE that also talks Python I am distracted by all 
the stuff that I'll never really need ... 
 
Eclipse can be used as a platform though (and I'm sure one can use Jython a 
lot to make things easier for Pythonists). I personally prefer Qt, but that's 
not free on Windows, so the target group is a bit more limited than with using 
a Java-based solution. 
 
 I disagree that performance is a problem in Zope 2.  With a combination 
 of profiling to eliminate bottlenecks, ZEO, and Squid, Zope hums along  
 beautifully.  We are consulting for a company that is in the process of  
 replacing their Java front-end with Zope.  They have huge amounts of  
 traffic, and are impressed with Zope's performance compared with their  
 comparable Java system. 
 
I've heard that a couple of times. But let's face it: Of course you can get 
Zope to deliver partly dynamic pages at high speed and if you use caching you 
can deliver pages at wire speed, but it will not be nearly as fast as a 
solution using Java or .NET/C# if we are talking about a lot of two-way 
traffic and CPU-intensive tasks in the back end, e.g. an online shopping mall, 
a booking system, or a groupware. 
 
 P.S. I don't agree with your pessimistic assessment of CMF, or Plone.  
 They're both good at what they do. 
 
I agree with you that Plone is quite impressive as it is now, but nobody will 
ever convince me that the CMF = Plone way was the right way to go ... Well, 
different people, different tastes ;-) 
  
Cheers 
 
Joachim 
 
 
 
 
 
iuveno AG 
 
Joachim Werner 
 
 
_ 
 
Wittelsbacherstr. 23b 
90475 Nürnberg 
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
www.iuveno-net.de 
 
Tel.: +49 (0) 911/ 9 88 39 84 
 

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[Zope-dev] Re: Zope3, CMS, IDEs

2004-04-22 Thread Dario Lopez-Kästen
Joachim Werner wrote:


[Seb Bacon wrote:]  

I disagree that performance is a problem in Zope 2.  With a combination 
of profiling to eliminate bottlenecks, ZEO, and Squid, Zope hums along  
beautifully.  We are consulting for a company that is in the process of  
replacing their Java front-end with Zope.  They have huge amounts of  
traffic, and are impressed with Zope's performance compared with their  
comparable Java system. 
 
I've heard that a couple of times. But let's face it: Of course you can get 
Zope to deliver partly dynamic pages at high speed and if you use caching you 
can deliver pages at wire speed, but it will not be nearly as fast as a 
solution using Java or .NET/C# if we are talking about a lot of two-way 
traffic and CPU-intensive tasks in the back end, e.g. an online shopping mall, 
a booking system, or a groupware. 
I have yet to see a comprehensive list of official (as in approved) 
things to consider when designing and building your application and then 
deploying it.

I am not trying to coerce anyone into doing this for me, I am just 
pointing out the situation. There are several docs that go thru 
different aspects, but they are scattered around the net, and there is 
no real, AFAIK, description of do's and don'ts related to Zope 
application desing.

I think these things should go into the manual perhaps. I will try to 
contribute to such an end - eventually a chapter on that might even 
become written ;-)

P.S. I don't agree with your pessimistic assessment of CMF, or Plone.  
They're both good at what they do. 
 
I agree with you that Plone is quite impressive as it is now, but nobody will 
ever convince me that the CMF = Plone way was the right way to go ... Well, 
different people, different tastes ;-) 
This is also something I have never been able to find any comprehensive 
document describing in som depth what the shortcomings of CMF and Plone.

Is there one?

/dario

--
-- ---
Dario Lopez-Kästen, IT Systems  Services Chalmers University of Tech.
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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: zLOG changes

2004-04-22 Thread Fred Drake
I wrote:
  - In debug mode, add a new handler that dumps to standard output.  This
  is fairly easy to code, but is inflexible.

Andreas responded:
  But flexible enough for most usecase. The point is that you want to see
  the tracebacks on the console during the development phase. Watching the
  event.log with tail -f is somewhat annoying.

Understood!  I've committed changes that that I think should do the trick for 
you.

- In debug mode, a log handler is added to the root logger that writes events
  to standard error.  This is no longer conflated with the startup logging.

- When running Zope using zopectl fg (the best way to run things for
  debugging), zopectl will force debug mode to be enabled.

   - In debug mode, use an alternate or auxillary logging configuration to
 replace or augment the eventlog configuration section.  This is more
   work   up front, but keeps everything flexible.
 
  Maybe too much overkill...not sure if one needs an academic solution
  here...

I don't know that I'd describe this as academic (most academics I've worked 
with considered the ability to change the code configuration enough), but if 
you're happy not to need it, I'm happy not to implement it.  ;-)


  -Fred

-- 
Fred L. Drake, Jr.  fred at zope.com
PythonLabs at Zope Corporation


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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: zLOG changes

2004-04-22 Thread Fred Drake
On Wednesday 21 April 2004 04:48 am, Chris Withers wrote:
  I'm guessing there is some kind of log-to-console logger already?
 
  If so, why not just add that in zope.conf and comment it out when you move
  to production?

That would work for me, but not everyone at ZC agreed, so I've made some 
changes that should be good for most people; see my message to Andreas and 
(and Zope-Dev) for a description of how things work on the trunk now.

  BTW, is there a logger in Python 2.3/Zope 2.7 that sends log entries via
  email? If not, I'll port MailingLogger to Zope 2.7 and see if I can make
  it play nice :-)

Yes, there is.  You should be able to use it by adding a section like this 
inside your eventlog section in zope.conf:

email-notifier
  fromChris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  to  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  to  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  subject Something blew up!
  smtp-server [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  level   error
  format  Timestamp: %(asctime)s\nComponent: %(name)s\nLevel: 
%(levelname)s (%(levelno)s)\n\n%(message)s
/email-notifier

My mailer might have wrapped that long line; sorry.  ;-(

Let me know if there are any problems with this.


  -Fred

-- 
Fred L. Drake, Jr.  fred at zope.com
PythonLabs at Zope Corporation


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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-22 Thread Dieter Maurer
Jim Fulton wrote at 2004-4-21 11:39 -0400:
Andreas Jung wrote:
 ...
 I am sure that more are willing to contribute more 
 than at the moment.

Great! Where are they?

I, for example, would but I am scared away by the required
promise to defend ZC against any potential patent claim related
to my checkins.
As in the US almost any triviality seems to be patentable,
I consider this too big a risk...


-- 
Dieter

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Re: [Zope-dev] The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-22 Thread Dieter Maurer
Terry Hancock wrote at 2004-4-21 09:39 -0500:
 ...
I've been developing an application, which has taken about two years, largely
because developing in the Zope 2 Framework model is like beating your head
against the wall constantly.

That's probably because I'm writing a fundamentally complex web application
which I need to have a lot of large-scale control over.
 ...
I also have to do this in my copious free time, as I'm not commercially
employed to do this work (maybe someday, but not now). So in those two
years, I've probably had the equivalent of 2 months of full-time work.

Writing a fundamentally complex web application within 2 months work
is quite impressive, isn't it?
Apparently, the framework is not too bad...

-- 
Dieter

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Re: [Zope-dev] The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-22 Thread Dieter Maurer
Joachim Werner wrote at 2004-4-21 21:24 +0200:
 ...
Believe me or not, almost everything gets 
more complicated with CMF/Plone than with plain Zope.

I do not believe you.

We have used CMF (mostly the SkinsTool, the ActionsTool and DCWorkflow)
very successfully to build

  *  an editorial system for news and newletters

  *  an E-Commerce solution

  *  partner portals

  *  a content management system for fragmented SGML/XML documents

We plan to use it for

  *  the configuration of a production process

  *  customizable intranet solutions.

  * ...

Building a 
framework on top of a broken framework on top of an ageing framework 
that is hardly documented isn't a very good idea after all.

Would be interested why you think the CMF were broken.

The source documentation of Zope is not optimal but not too bad
at all. Tools like my DocFinder and Zpydoc allow you to
access this source documentation quite easily.

-- 
Dieter

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Re: [Zope-dev] [Q] Pickle support for C wrapper and ZEO

2004-04-22 Thread Dieter Maurer
Ames Andreas (MPA/DF) wrote at 2004-4-22 11:07 +0200:
 ...
The ODBC api is object-based and exhibits four object types:
environment, connection, statement and descriptor objects each of
which has a set of methods and properties.  Pickle-wise I'm not so
concerned about persistence across shutdown/restart cycles (I think
it's reasonable to re-create your ODBC environments, connections
etc. after restart) but rather about consistency across ZEO-instances.

You mean ZEO client instances not ZEO (server) instances, don't you?

Why do you think your ODBC objects should be consistent across
ZEO clients?
I do not think that it is necessary as all your requests your
be independent which means all transactions inside a single
request which implied that connections need not to be shared.

My lack of experience makes me ask here for expert advise.

1)  Does the ZEO scenario demand some pickle support, e. g. to
use consitent environments/connections etc. across ZEO instances
or do I just misunderstand ZEO?

You probably misunderstand ZEO.

ZEO is a storage server that stores persistent objects (as pickles).
Persistent means persistence across shutdown/restart.
Any object stored by ZEO must be picklable.

But, as you are not interested in persistence across shutdown/restart
for your ODBC objects, there is probably no need to store them
in ZEO.

2)  If pickle support is a good idea:  What scope would you find
reasonable?  I. e. I can imagine that persistence of
environments/descriptors could be useful

Maybe...

while persistent
connections/statements could cause more trouble than they are
worth.

This is definitely true.

As you can see the whole thing isn't very clear to me and so I'd
appreciate your comments.

See how (other) database adapters handle these issues...

-- 
Dieter

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-22 Thread Dieter Maurer
Martijn Faassen wrote at 2004-4-21 19:42 +0200:
Stephan Richter wrote:

 Nobody is willing to contribute. ZC agreed to change zope.org to Plone so more 
 community members can contribute. But noone has stepped up; that's very sad.

I believe part of the blockage is because contributors have to sign far 
more than just a simple CVS contributor's agreement. This bureaucracy is 
not helpful.

+1

-- 
Dieter

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: When should one call Connection.sync?

2004-04-22 Thread Dieter Maurer
Syver Enstad wrote at 2004-4-21 18:03 +0200:
Syver Enstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I am using ZODB 3.2 in a twisted based web application. I have read
 that I need to call sync to keep the connection up to date. When
 exactly should I call sync? Are there any drawbacks with calling it
 immediately after getting a connection, like this:
 
 # for each http request.
 connection = db.open() # (a DB instance)
 connection.setLocalTransaction()
 connection.sync()
 
 # start using the ZODB here.
 
 # if something needs to be committed
 connection.getTransaction().commit()

I have done some experiments with this scheme and I find that
everything gets unloaded when do a connection.close() or
connection.sync() so that performance takes quite a hit.

Maybe, the connection cache is too small.

Usually, an incremental cache garbage collection is performed
in connection.close() and at transaction boundaries
(sync causes an implicit transaction.abort() which means,
it marks a transaction boundary). The cache garbage collection
tries to flush as many objects from the cache as are necessary
to reach the target cache size.

-- 
Dieter

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Zope Book development moved (was Re: Call for Zope Book volunteers (was Re: Zope Book, was Re: [Zope-dev] The bleak Future of Zope?))

2004-04-22 Thread Chris McDonough
I've come to the unfortunate conclusion that Zope.org is just not going
to cut it to do Zope Book development work due to its speed (or lack
thereof).

I'd like to help fix the Zope.org slowness problem, but I'm a little
unclear about what's required for me to get the level of access required
to do so.  I read the stuff at Zope.org/About and Zope.com/Legal but
it's a little hard to divine out of the combination what I need to do
before I can be allowed to help.  So of the Zope.org Application Server
Working Group/Zope Application Working Group/Whoever wants help trying
to fix it, you know where to find me!  Just don't make me attend a 7am
committee meeting or sign a noncompete instrument wink.

In the meantime, in the spirit of expedience, I'm moving the development
version of the book to plope.com.  Once 2.7 edition development work is
done, I will move a copy of the book back to Zope.org so it can be found
easily by newbies.  Interested parties can now refer to
http://www.plope.com/Books/zb_signup for project information.

- C

On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 14:13, Chris McDonough wrote:
 I've set up a development BackTalk sandbox for the 2.7 edition of the
 Zope book at http://zope.org/Documentation/Books/ZopeBook/2_7Edition. 
 Currently it's just an exact copy of the 2.6 Edition book (comments and
 all).  I think the plan should be for people to:
 
 1. take ownership of a chapter or two
 2. address all the comments in the chapter and get rid of comments
in places you've addressed.
 3. update any material that is wrong wrt to differences between
2.6 and 2.7.
 
 The prize for taking ownership and updating two complete chapters is
 your name as a coauthor on the front page (as before ;-).
 
 Another thing to do is to incorporate some of John Whitener's changes
 the lost chapter referenced all over the place within book comments. 
 I wonder if he's still around.
 
 At some point in the future, we can backport some of the changes to
 the 2.6 book if someone wants to take on that responsibility.
 
 It's advisable to use external editor to make the changes or to maybe
 use FTP to get sandboxed local copies of the book and make changes
 reuploading them as necessary.  I've lost track of whether FTP access is
 possible or not on Zope.org at this point, however.  Does anyone know? 
 I've tried a few ports but nothing.
 
 Also, Zope.org is so slow for each request when you're logged in that we
 may need to move development to another system.  As a data point, I've
 been waiting  4 minutes for Z.org to save a Wiki page... still
 waiting.  Hilarious.  Admittedly, it takes a unique brand of apathy to
 ignore this, but I've got an excuse.  I'm waiting for the Zope.org
 steering committee to solve it!  Chuckle.  In the meantime, what
 slowness.. I don't know what you're talking about..
 
 I have given Manager role in the entirety of the 2.7 edition book to
 both Peter and Paul.  Anyone else who wants to contribute, please let me
 know which chapter(s) you'd like to sign up to revise and I will provide
 you access as necessary. I've set up a project wiki for the project at
 http://zope.org/Members/mcdonc/ZB_project where people can get a sense
 of which chapters are still available.  It may not be available yet...
 still waiting for it to save.
 
 I will take ownership of the Installation chapter for now (I will
 probably take ownership of some other chapters, but I'll start small...)
 
 - C
 
 
 
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Re: [Zope-dev] The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-22 Thread Terry Hancock
On Thursday 22 April 2004 05:22 pm, Dieter Maurer wrote:
 Writing a fundamentally complex web application within 2 months work
 is quite impressive, isn't it?
 Apparently, the framework is not too bad...

Ya' think? I thought it just meant I kicked ass. :-D

No, seriously Zope is great.  But it's a bit rigid. Zope 3
will (I think) be a lot better.

There's also the tiny detail that I haven't actually written
it to the point where it can be used yet. So maybe it isn't
that impressive. :-(

Cheers,
Terry

--
Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com )
Anansi Spaceworks  http://www.anansispaceworks.com


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