[Zope-dev] Zope Tests: 6 OK

2010-01-22 Thread Zope Tests Summarizer
Summary of messages to the zope-tests list.
Period Thu Jan 21 12:00:00 2010 UTC to Fri Jan 22 12:00:00 2010 UTC.
There were 6 messages: 6 from Zope Tests.


Tests passed OK
---

Subject: OK : Zope-2.10 Python-2.4.6 : Linux
From: Zope Tests
Date: Thu Jan 21 20:36:54 EST 2010
URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-January/013425.html

Subject: OK : Zope-2.11 Python-2.4.6 : Linux
From: Zope Tests
Date: Thu Jan 21 20:38:54 EST 2010
URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-January/013426.html

Subject: OK : Zope-2.12 Python-2.6.4 : Linux
From: Zope Tests
Date: Thu Jan 21 20:40:54 EST 2010
URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-January/013427.html

Subject: OK : Zope-2.12-alltests Python-2.6.4 : Linux
From: Zope Tests
Date: Thu Jan 21 20:42:54 EST 2010
URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-January/013428.html

Subject: OK : Zope-trunk Python-2.6.4 : Linux
From: Zope Tests
Date: Thu Jan 21 20:44:54 EST 2010
URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-January/013429.html

Subject: OK : Zope-trunk-alltests Python-2.6.4 : Linux
From: Zope Tests
Date: Thu Jan 21 20:46:54 EST 2010
URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-January/013430.html

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Re: [Zope-dev] Where is the position of BlueBream in Zope ecosystem ?

2010-01-22 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 04:55, Alex Clark acl...@aclark.net wrote:
 We certainly
 have not reached the goal of helping newcomers understand the Zope ecosystem
 in any other way to date, IMO.)

If this is so, then I'm surprised. It seems perfectly clear to me.

1. In the beginning there is Python, the language.

2. Then you get ZCA a component architecture for Python. It has
nothing to do with Web whatsoever.

3. Then we have ZTK. A toolkit for building web frameworks.

4. On top of that we have Zope 2, BlueBream and Grok.

5. There is also BFG, which doesn't include/build on the ZTK (as the others do).


It's pretty clear to me. Notice the almost complete lack of naming
confusion, and the plethora of marketable names and TLA's. The paper
pushers like these kinds of graphs (although I think we need something
prettier, I might try do do something this weekend, but I'm no
designer...)

And when it comes to separating the frameworks it obviously becomes
more complex. So we need to explain this, what the different framworks
are good at in a clear way. I see it like this, but I could be wrong:

* Zope 2 is the granddaddy of the frameworks. It's not really built on
top of ZTK, but includes it. You basically only use Zope 2 if you are
using some sort of software that builds on it, like Plone, Silva, or
something custom.

To build on my earlier car analogy: Zope 2 is an old pickup truck. You
can get it to do anything. You can drop it from the top of a building
and it will run. When it breaks you whack it with a hammer until it's
not broken anymore. But it's diesel engine kinda stinks.

* BlueBream used to be called Zope 3 and is a component based
enterprise kick-ass do everything framework. Everything is
configurable and it doesn't just include batteries, but a whole power
plant. Which admittedly can be tricky to run.

BlueBream is a train. Fast, big and pulls heavy loads, and good for
the environment. If that's what you need, you know it.

* Grok is an easier to use (and at least in the future also
smaller/lighter) framework than BlueBream, while retaining the
flexibility. Instead of having to configure everything, you have
sensible defaults. Less typing, and it doesn't feel like J2EE.
Inspired by frameworks like Django and Turbogears, you get the nice
Python framework feeling with the power of ZTK behind you.

Grok is a an hybrid minibus. Easy to drive, infinitely reconfigurable
just by switching the seats around.

* BFG is a minimalistic web framework built on Zope ideas and
experiences, but as a part of it's minimalistic nature does not
include *anything* of the ZTK, it just builds on the ZCA. But you can
use the ZTK, if you want to, you are just not required to do so. It's
for the purist, for the guy who wants to build his own streamlined
speedmonster.

BFG is a frame with four wheels and an big engine. The rest is up to you.


-- 
Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok
http://regebro.wordpress.com/
+33 661 58 14 64
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Re: [Zope-dev] Where is the position of BlueBream in Zope ecosystem ?

2010-01-22 Thread Hermann Himmelbauer
Am Freitag 22 Januar 2010 14:46:16 schrieb Lennart Regebro:
 On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 04:55, Alex Clark acl...@aclark.net wrote:
  We certainly
  have not reached the goal of helping newcomers understand the Zope
  ecosystem in any other way to date, IMO.)

 If this is so, then I'm surprised. It seems perfectly clear to me.

 1. In the beginning there is Python, the language.

 2. Then you get ZCA a component architecture for Python. It has
 nothing to do with Web whatsoever.

 3. Then we have ZTK. A toolkit for building web frameworks.

 4. On top of that we have Zope 2, BlueBream and Grok.

 5. There is also BFG, which doesn't include/build on the ZTK (as the others
 do).


 It's pretty clear to me. Notice the almost complete lack of naming
 confusion, and the plethora of marketable names and TLA's. The paper
 pushers like these kinds of graphs (although I think we need something
 prettier, I might try do do something this weekend, but I'm no
 designer...)

No problem that you are no designer, if the concept is clearly communicated, 
there will be people around who can prettify it.

 And when it comes to separating the frameworks it obviously becomes
 more complex. So we need to explain this, what the different framworks
 are good at in a clear way. I see it like this, but I could be wrong:

The above list (and http://wiki.zope.org/bluebream/relationship-after.png, 
which resembles the list) pretty much explains and structures things. 
Personally, I think that Plone (and maybe other applications, e.g. Silva?) 
are missing in the big picture (not necessary for explaining BlueBream, 
though).

The problem I see is where to go from this graph/list. I personally would 
expect to be able to advance from there to project home pages. This is true 
for grok/zope2/bluebream (in .zope.org), and also for BFG  (bfg.repoze.org).

What I can't find is some entry page for ZTK (at least I find 
http://docs.zope.org/zopetoolkit). Nice would be something 
like ztk.zope.org which could be similar to zope2.zope.org.

When it gets to ZCA, I can't find anything, except for Baiju's book and maybe 
somewhere some document about the Zope Component Architecture. If we 
introduce the word ZCA, I would recommend to put up a simple page on 
e.g. zca.zope.org, where people can learn what this is, links to a 
documentation and maybe has some download/install information and some 
tutorial.

Best Regards,
Hermann

-- 
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GPG key ID: 299893C7 (on keyservers)
FP: 0124 2584 8809 EF2A DBF9  4902 64B4 D16B 2998 93C7
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Re: [Zope-dev] Where is the position of BlueBream in Zope ecosystem ?

2010-01-22 Thread Baiju M
On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 7:58 PM, Hermann Himmelbauer du...@qwer.tk wrote:
 When it gets to ZCA, I can't find anything, except for Baiju's book and maybe
 somewhere some document about the Zope Component Architecture. If we
 introduce the word ZCA, I would recommend to put up a simple page on
 e.g. zca.zope.org, where people can learn what this is, links to a
 documentation and maybe has some download/install information and some
 tutorial.

If somebody is going to work on this, I have collected all the links
I found about ZCA here:

  http://wiki.zope.org/zope3/ComponentArchitecture

Regards,
Baiju M
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Re: [Zope-dev] Where is the position of BlueBream in Zope ecosystem ?

2010-01-22 Thread Alex Clark
On 2010-01-22, Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 04:55, Alex Clark acl...@aclark.net wrote:
 We certainly
 have not reached the goal of helping newcomers understand the Zope ecosystem
 in any other way to date, IMO.)

 If this is so, then I'm surprised. It seems perfectly clear to me.

Ah! This is tremendously helpful, thanks. Just a few questions/comments.

 1. In the beginning there is Python, the language.

 2. Then you get ZCA a component architecture for Python. It has
 nothing to do with Web whatsoever.

E.g. zope.component and one or two others?

 3. Then we have ZTK. A toolkit for building web frameworks.

This is where you lose me. What's an example of a ZTK package? I can't
think of one off the top of my head… ah ok, I just found this:

- http://docs.zope.org/zopetoolkit/releases/packages-trunk.html

So ZTK is ZCA plus the bits that make it suitable for building
web frameworks. And is it fair to say I can just build any web
app with the ZTK? I don't need any of the frameworks that are
already built, I'm free to reinvent the wheel if I choose too.

 4. On top of that we have Zope 2, BlueBream and Grok.

I.e. The Frameworks™

 5. There is also BFG, which doesn't include/build on the ZTK (as the others 
 do).

Right, it's loosely coupled with the ZCA, but you can throw that out too, 
if you like?

 It's pretty clear to me. Notice the almost complete lack of naming
 confusion, and the plethora of marketable names and TLA's. The paper
 pushers like these kinds of graphs (although I think we need something
 prettier, I might try do do something this weekend, but I'm no
 designer...)

 And when it comes to separating the frameworks it obviously becomes
 more complex. So we need to explain this, what the different framworks
 are good at in a clear way. I see it like this, but I could be wrong:

 * Zope 2 is the granddaddy of the frameworks. It's not really built on
 top of ZTK, but includes it. You basically only use Zope 2 if you are
 using some sort of software that builds on it, like Plone, Silva, or
 something custom.

 To build on my earlier car analogy: Zope 2 is an old pickup truck. You
 can get it to do anything. You can drop it from the top of a building
 and it will run. When it breaks you whack it with a hammer until it's
 not broken anymore. But it's diesel engine kinda stinks.

 * BlueBream used to be called Zope 3 and is a component based
 enterprise kick-ass do everything framework. Everything is
 configurable and it doesn't just include batteries, but a whole power
 plant. Which admittedly can be tricky to run.

 BlueBream is a train. Fast, big and pulls heavy loads, and good for
 the environment. If that's what you need, you know it.

 * Grok is an easier to use (and at least in the future also
 smaller/lighter) framework than BlueBream, while retaining the
 flexibility. Instead of having to configure everything, you have
 sensible defaults. Less typing, and it doesn't feel like J2EE.
 Inspired by frameworks like Django and Turbogears, you get the nice
 Python framework feeling with the power of ZTK behind you.

 Grok is a an hybrid minibus. Easy to drive, infinitely reconfigurable
 just by switching the seats around.

 * BFG is a minimalistic web framework built on Zope ideas and
 experiences, but as a part of it's minimalistic nature does not
 include *anything* of the ZTK, it just builds on the ZCA. But you can
 use the ZTK, if you want to, you are just not required to do so. It's
 for the purist, for the guy who wants to build his own streamlined
 speedmonster.

 BFG is a frame with four wheels and an big engine. The rest is up to you.

Right, and the apps built with those frameworks, e.g. Plone, Cyn.in, Zenoss, 
etc.
Would be very helpful to include these in a discussion about this, IMO.





-- 
Alex Clark · http://aclark.net
Practical Plone 3 · http://tinyurl.com/practical-plone

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Re: [Zope-dev] Where is the position of BlueBream in Zope ecosystem ?

2010-01-22 Thread Alex Clark
On 2010-01-22, Hermann Himmelbauer du...@qwer.tk wrote:
 Am Freitag 22 Januar 2010 14:46:16 schrieb Lennart Regebro:
 On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 04:55, Alex Clark acl...@aclark.net wrote:
  We certainly
  have not reached the goal of helping newcomers understand the Zope
  ecosystem in any other way to date, IMO.)

 If this is so, then I'm surprised. It seems perfectly clear to me.

 1. In the beginning there is Python, the language.

 2. Then you get ZCA a component architecture for Python. It has
 nothing to do with Web whatsoever.

 3. Then we have ZTK. A toolkit for building web frameworks.

 4. On top of that we have Zope 2, BlueBream and Grok.

 5. There is also BFG, which doesn't include/build on the ZTK (as the others
 do).


 It's pretty clear to me. Notice the almost complete lack of naming
 confusion, and the plethora of marketable names and TLA's. The paper
 pushers like these kinds of graphs (although I think we need something
 prettier, I might try do do something this weekend, but I'm no
 designer...)

 No problem that you are no designer, if the concept is clearly communicated, 
 there will be people around who can prettify it.

 And when it comes to separating the frameworks it obviously becomes
 more complex. So we need to explain this, what the different framworks
 are good at in a clear way. I see it like this, but I could be wrong:

 The above list (and http://wiki.zope.org/bluebream/relationship-after.png, 
 which resembles the list) pretty much explains and structures things. 
 Personally, I think that Plone (and maybe other applications, e.g. Silva?) 
 are missing in the big picture (not necessary for explaining BlueBream, 
 though).

+1

 The problem I see is where to go from this graph/list. I personally would 
 expect to be able to advance from there to project home pages. This is true 
 for grok/zope2/bluebream (in .zope.org), and also for BFG  (bfg.repoze.org).

 What I can't find is some entry page for ZTK (at least I find 
 http://docs.zope.org/zopetoolkit). Nice would be something 
 like ztk.zope.org which could be similar to zope2.zope.org.

+1


 When it gets to ZCA, I can't find anything, except for Baiju's book and maybe 
 somewhere some document about the Zope Component Architecture. If we 
 introduce the word ZCA, I would recommend to put up a simple page on 
 e.g. zca.zope.org, where people can learn what this is, links to a 
 documentation and maybe has some download/install information and some 
 tutorial.

Right, I see http://pypi.python.org/pypi/zope.component/3.9.1
wrt to ZCA.


 Best Regards,
 Hermann



-- 
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Practical Plone 3 · http://tinyurl.com/practical-plone

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Re: [Zope-dev] Where is the position of BlueBream in Zope ecosystem ?

2010-01-22 Thread Wichert Akkerman
On 1/22/10 14:46 , Lennart Regebro wrote:
 * BFG is a minimalistic web framework built on Zope ideas and
 experiences, but as a part of it's minimalistic nature does not
 include *anything* of the ZTK, it just builds on the ZCA. But you can
 use the ZTK, if you want to, you are just not required to do so. It's
 for the purist, for the guy who wants to build his own streamlined
 speedmonster.

BFG uses the ZCA for some implementation details, I'm not sure if that 
is the same as 'builds on the ZCA'. I don't think you can use the ZTK 
with BFG - the vast majority of ZTK packages are too tied to concepts 
that do not apply to BFG.

Wichert.
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Re: [Zope-dev] Wrong check out path on zope site

2010-01-22 Thread Christian Theune
Hi,

On 01/20/2010 08:56 AM, Yuan HOng wrote:
 Hi,
 
 The svn check out path for Zope 3.4 given on the following page:
 
 http://docs.zope.org/developer/subversion-readonly-checkouts.html
 
 is not correct. The correct one should be:
 
 svn co svn://svn.zope.org/repos/main/Zope3/branches/3.4
 http://svn.zope.org/repos/main/Zope3/branches/3.4 Zope
 
 Can someone correct this please.

Fixed in Subversion. The docs should be updated automatically soon.

Christian

-- 
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gocept gmbh  co. kg · forsterstraße 29 · 06112 halle (saale) · germany
http://gocept.com · tel +49 345 1229889 0 · fax +49 345 1229889 1
Zope and Plone consulting and development

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Re: [Zope-dev] Where is the position of BlueBream in Zope ecosystem ?

2010-01-22 Thread Hanno Schlichting
On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 4:11 PM, Wichert Akkerman wich...@wiggy.net wrote:
 BFG uses the ZCA for some implementation details, I'm not sure if that
 is the same as 'builds on the ZCA'. I don't think you can use the ZTK
 with BFG - the vast majority of ZTK packages are too tied to concepts
 that do not apply to BFG.

In the same way Zope2 doesn't really built on the ZTK. It's integrated
in some parts of it while a lot is still agnostic to it. Parts of the
ZTK like the entire security machinery don't apply. But there's
certainly some relationship that qualifies as uses between these
entities. I'd say the same is true for BFG.

Hanno
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[Zope-dev] [ZF] Announcement: 2010 Zope Foundation Board Elections and General Meeting

2010-01-22 Thread Tres Seaver
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

(apologies in advance for the cross-post:  we need this to reach the
whole Zope community).

The Zope Foundation board is pleased to announce the regular 2010
general meeting of the foundation will be held on Wednesday, 24 February
2010, at 17:00 UTC.  The meeting will be conducted via IRC at the
following channel:

irc://irc.freenode.net/#zope-foundation

Prior to that meeting, the current board will conduct an elections in
which foundation members will select seven (7) board members in
accordance with the foundation bylaws[1].


Summary
- ---

- - Nominations open via the foundat...@zope.org mailing list until
  Friday, 2010-01-29.

- - Voting via e-mail to a closed mailing list, from Wednesday,
  2010-02-03 through Friday, 2010-02-19.

- - Votes tallied by representatives of the current board,
  using Meek and Warrent STV method using OpenSTV software.

- - General meeting and seating of the new board, Wednesday, 2010-02-24.


Procedure for Elections
- ---

The procedure for the elections is as follows:

- - Foundation members may nominate any member by responding to the
  board's announcment on the foundat...@zope.org maling list.
  Nominations will remain open until Friday, 2010-01-29, 23:00 UTC.

- - At the close of the nominations period, the board will create a new
  mailman list, 'zf-elections-2010', and approve all ZF members to post
  to the list..  In order to preserve anonymity of votes, foundation
  members will not be subscribers to the list;  access to the list
  archives will be restricted to the tellers appointed by the board.

- - On Wednesday, 2010-02-03, the Secretary will send an e-mail announcing
  the opening of the voting period. This email will contain the ballot,
  with careful instructions about how to rank preferences in the reply.
  The Reply-to header of this e-mail will be set to the
  'zf-elections-2010' list.

- - ZF members will vote by replying to that e-mail.  Voting will remain
  open until Friday, 2010-02-19, 23:00 UTC.

- - At the close of voting, the board will appoint two of its members as
  tellers.  The tellers will use the list archive to tabulate the
  members' votes, using the OpenSTV application[2] configured to use the
  Meek and Warren STV method[3].  The tellers will report the election
  results, along with the raw tallies, at a special board meeting to be
  held on Tuesday, 2009-02-23, 15:00 UTC.

- - After canvassing the results from the tellers, the board will notify
  all nominees of the success / failure of their candidacy, thanking
  them for their willingness to serve.

- - At the general meeting, the last item on the agenda will the
  announcement of the election results, including a vote to seat the
  board.


An online version of this announcement is available at:

  http://foundation.zope.org/news/2010_election_and_general_meeting/


References
- --

[1] http://foundation.zope.org/bylaws/zope_foundation_bylaws.pdf

[2] http://stv.sourceforge.net/aboutopenstv

[3] http://stv.sourceforge.net/votingmethods/meek




Tres.
- --
===
Tres Seaver  +1 540-429-0999  tsea...@palladion.com
Palladion Software   Excellence by Designhttp://palladion.com

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Re: [Zope-dev] Where is the position of BlueBream in Zope ecosystem ?

2010-01-22 Thread Tres Seaver
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Hash: SHA1

Wichert Akkerman wrote:
 On 1/22/10 14:46 , Lennart Regebro wrote:
 * BFG is a minimalistic web framework built on Zope ideas and
 experiences, but as a part of it's minimalistic nature does not
 include *anything* of the ZTK, it just builds on the ZCA. But you can
 use the ZTK, if you want to, you are just not required to do so. It's
 for the purist, for the guy who wants to build his own streamlined
 speedmonster.
 
 BFG uses the ZCA for some implementation details, I'm not sure if that 
 is the same as 'builds on the ZCA'. I don't think you can use the ZTK 
 with BFG - the vast majority of ZTK packages are too tied to concepts 
 that do not apply to BFG.

BFG applications won't likely use the ZTK as a whole, but many of the
deployed ones do use some ZTK packages beyond the bare ZCA parts. e.g.
the catalog code, SMTP integration, etc.


Tres.
- --
===
Tres Seaver  +1 540-429-0999  tsea...@palladion.com
Palladion Software   Excellence by Designhttp://palladion.com
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Re: [Zope-dev] Where is the position of BlueBream in Zope ecosystem ?

2010-01-22 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 15:28, Hermann Himmelbauer du...@qwer.tk wrote:
 What I can't find is some entry page for ZTK (at least I find
 http://docs.zope.org/zopetoolkit).

Well isn't that enough? It's nothing you can download and test, it's a
collection of libraries of limited interest outside those who use Zope
webframeworks.

 When it gets to ZCA, I can't find anything, except for Baiju's book and maybe
 somewhere some document about the Zope Component Architecture.

Yeah, the component architecture maybe could use some more advertising.
-- 
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http://regebro.wordpress.com/
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Re: [Zope-dev] Where is the position of BlueBream in Zope ecosystem ?

2010-01-22 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 15:38, Alex Clark acl...@aclark.net wrote:
 2. Then you get ZCA a component architecture for Python. It has
 nothing to do with Web whatsoever.

 E.g. zope.component and one or two others?

Yup.

 3. Then we have ZTK. A toolkit for building web frameworks.

 This is where you lose me. What's an example of a ZTK package? I can't
 think of one off the top of my head… ah ok, I just found this:

    - http://docs.zope.org/zopetoolkit/releases/packages-trunk.html

 So ZTK is ZCA plus the bits that make it suitable for building
 web frameworks. And is it fair to say I can just build any web
 app with the ZTK? I don't need any of the frameworks that are
 already built, I'm free to reinvent the wheel if I choose too.

Sure. Or for example, use it together with Pylons, or Bobo, or for
that matter BFG.

 4. On top of that we have Zope 2, BlueBream and Grok.

 I.e. The Frameworks™

Yup.

 5. There is also BFG, which doesn't include/build on the ZTK (as the others 
 do).

 Right, it's loosely coupled with the ZCA, but you can throw that out too,
 if you like?

Chris has to answer that.

-- 
Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok
http://regebro.wordpress.com/
+33 661 58 14 64
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Re: [Zope-dev] Where is the position of BlueBream in Zope ecosystem ?

2010-01-22 Thread Wichert Akkerman
On 2010-1-22 18:41, Tres Seaver wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Wichert Akkerman wrote:
 On 1/22/10 14:46 , Lennart Regebro wrote:
 * BFG is a minimalistic web framework built on Zope ideas and
 experiences, but as a part of it's minimalistic nature does not
 include *anything* of the ZTK, it just builds on the ZCA. But you can
 use the ZTK, if you want to, you are just not required to do so. It's
 for the purist, for the guy who wants to build his own streamlined
 speedmonster.

 BFG uses the ZCA for some implementation details, I'm not sure if that
 is the same as 'builds on the ZCA'. I don't think you can use the ZTK
 with BFG - the vast majority of ZTK packages are too tied to concepts
 that do not apply to BFG.

 BFG applications won't likely use the ZTK as a whole, but many of the
 deployed ones do use some ZTK packages beyond the bare ZCA parts. e.g.
 the catalog code, SMTP integration, etc.

I thought repoze forked exactly those parts (repoze.catalog and 
repoze.sendmail) to get rid of all the ZTK-assumptions?

Wichert.

-- 
Wichert Akkerman wich...@wiggy.net   It is simple to make things.
http://www.wiggy.net/  It is hard to make things simple.
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Re: [Zope-dev] Where is the position of BlueBream in Zope ecosystem ?

2010-01-22 Thread Jan Ulrich Hasecke
On 22.01.10 19:42, Lennart Regebro wrote:
 Yeah, the component architecture maybe could use some more advertising.

FullACK I think the ZCA is our USP.

As I said before, we will launch a new zope.de website in Germany soon
and produce a imagebroschure about Zope which will both emphasize this
point.

I really enjoy the discussion so far. Many valuable hints and good
statements.

juh
DZUG e.V.
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[Zope-dev] zope.app.authentication

2010-01-22 Thread Souheil CHELFOUH
Hello guys,

I'm coding some stuff, using zope.app.authentication and this package
appears to do too many things, in my opinion.
Would it be wise to cut off some of the functionalities ? The pure PAU
components could go in a dedicated package, like
zope.pluggableauthservice
The whole handling of principals, groups and folder makes it a bit
hard to read and introduces a lot of redundancy if we wish to roll our
own things.
What do you guys think ?

Cheers
- Souheil
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Re: [Zope-dev] [ZF] Announcement: 2010 Zope Foundation Board Elections and General Meeting

2010-01-22 Thread Chris McDonough
I nominate Tres Seaver.

- C

Tres Seaver wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 (apologies in advance for the cross-post:  we need this to reach the
 whole Zope community).
 
 The Zope Foundation board is pleased to announce the regular 2010
 general meeting of the foundation will be held on Wednesday, 24 February
 2010, at 17:00 UTC.  The meeting will be conducted via IRC at the
 following channel:
 
 irc://irc.freenode.net/#zope-foundation
 
 Prior to that meeting, the current board will conduct an elections in
 which foundation members will select seven (7) board members in
 accordance with the foundation bylaws[1].
 
 
 Summary
 - ---
 
 - - Nominations open via the foundat...@zope.org mailing list until
   Friday, 2010-01-29.
 
 - - Voting via e-mail to a closed mailing list, from Wednesday,
   2010-02-03 through Friday, 2010-02-19.
 
 - - Votes tallied by representatives of the current board,
   using Meek and Warrent STV method using OpenSTV software.
 
 - - General meeting and seating of the new board, Wednesday, 2010-02-24.
 
 
 Procedure for Elections
 - ---
 
 The procedure for the elections is as follows:
 
 - - Foundation members may nominate any member by responding to the
   board's announcment on the foundat...@zope.org maling list.
   Nominations will remain open until Friday, 2010-01-29, 23:00 UTC.
 
 - - At the close of the nominations period, the board will create a new
   mailman list, 'zf-elections-2010', and approve all ZF members to post
   to the list..  In order to preserve anonymity of votes, foundation
   members will not be subscribers to the list;  access to the list
   archives will be restricted to the tellers appointed by the board.
 
 - - On Wednesday, 2010-02-03, the Secretary will send an e-mail announcing
   the opening of the voting period. This email will contain the ballot,
   with careful instructions about how to rank preferences in the reply.
   The Reply-to header of this e-mail will be set to the
   'zf-elections-2010' list.
 
 - - ZF members will vote by replying to that e-mail.  Voting will remain
   open until Friday, 2010-02-19, 23:00 UTC.
 
 - - At the close of voting, the board will appoint two of its members as
   tellers.  The tellers will use the list archive to tabulate the
   members' votes, using the OpenSTV application[2] configured to use the
   Meek and Warren STV method[3].  The tellers will report the election
   results, along with the raw tallies, at a special board meeting to be
   held on Tuesday, 2009-02-23, 15:00 UTC.
 
 - - After canvassing the results from the tellers, the board will notify
   all nominees of the success / failure of their candidacy, thanking
   them for their willingness to serve.
 
 - - At the general meeting, the last item on the agenda will the
   announcement of the election results, including a vote to seat the
   board.
 
 
 An online version of this announcement is available at:
 
   http://foundation.zope.org/news/2010_election_and_general_meeting/
 
 
 References
 - --
 
 [1] http://foundation.zope.org/bylaws/zope_foundation_bylaws.pdf
 
 [2] http://stv.sourceforge.net/aboutopenstv
 
 [3] http://stv.sourceforge.net/votingmethods/meek
 
 
 
 
 Tres.
 - --
 ===
 Tres Seaver  +1 540-429-0999  tsea...@palladion.com
 Palladion Software   Excellence by Designhttp://palladion.com
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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 7+sAn2aZoP5pb0sqK4ir84d9rhm09HiO
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Re: [Zope-dev] Where is the position of BlueBream in Zope ecosystem ?

2010-01-22 Thread Chris McDonough
Lennart Regebro wrote:
 
 5. There is also BFG, which doesn't include/build on the ZTK (as the others 
 do).
 Right, it's loosely coupled with the ZCA, but you can throw that out too,
 if you like?
 
 Chris has to answer that.

BFG uses some Zope software, like, say, Pylons uses software made by Ian 
Bicking.  This is about the best way to describe the relationship.

The fact that BFG is built on top of the ZCA is an implementation detail.  As a 
consumer of BFG (as a programmer of a BFG application), you aren't going to 
throw out the ZCA, because a) there'd be no reason to do so, it's an 
implementation detail that is invisible to you and b) BFG would stop working.

In the future, BFG may or may not depend on the set of Zope packages on which 
it currently depends.  It may begin to depend on more Zope packages, or fewer, 
or disuse all of them entirely.  But whatever decisions are made wrt its Zope 
dependencies, BFG will be largely backwards compatible with itself between 
releases.

- C

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Re: [Zope-dev] zope.app.authentication

2010-01-22 Thread Hanno Schlichting
On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 7:59 PM, Souheil CHELFOUH troll...@gmail.com wrote:
 I'm coding some stuff, using zope.app.authentication and this package
 appears to do too many things, in my opinion.
 Would it be wise to cut off some of the functionalities ? The pure PAU
 components could go in a dedicated package, like
 zope.pluggableauthservice

I don't have a good understanding of any of the security related
features of Zope 3, but it looks like we already have a lot of
packages. Would it make sense to put it into any of the existing ones?

There's at least:

zope.authentication
zope.login
zope.password
zope.principalannotation
zope.principalregistry
zope.security
zope.securitypolicy

Hanno
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Re: [Zope-dev] zope.app.authentication

2010-01-22 Thread Souheil CHELFOUH
I don't think so. The PAU is quite a big chunk and would really
deserve to live on its own piece of land.
zope.authentication is really about the authentication basics, not all
the pluggability and plugin that PAU brings in.
zope.app.authentication is just too confuse as it defines PAU and a
whole set of persistent authentication-relatied components and other
things that could be easily (logically) cut off.

2010/1/22 Hanno Schlichting ha...@hannosch.eu:
 On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 7:59 PM, Souheil CHELFOUH troll...@gmail.com wrote:
 I'm coding some stuff, using zope.app.authentication and this package
 appears to do too many things, in my opinion.
 Would it be wise to cut off some of the functionalities ? The pure PAU
 components could go in a dedicated package, like
 zope.pluggableauthservice

 I don't have a good understanding of any of the security related
 features of Zope 3, but it looks like we already have a lot of
 packages. Would it make sense to put it into any of the existing ones?

 There's at least:

 zope.authentication
 zope.login
 zope.password
 zope.principalannotation
 zope.principalregistry
 zope.security
 zope.securitypolicy

 Hanno

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Re: [Zope-dev] Where is the position of BlueBream in Zope ecosystem ?

2010-01-22 Thread Tres Seaver
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Wichert Akkerman wrote:
 On 2010-1-22 18:41, Tres Seaver wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Wichert Akkerman wrote:
 On 1/22/10 14:46 , Lennart Regebro wrote:
 * BFG is a minimalistic web framework built on Zope ideas and
 experiences, but as a part of it's minimalistic nature does not
 include *anything* of the ZTK, it just builds on the ZCA. But you can
 use the ZTK, if you want to, you are just not required to do so. It's
 for the purist, for the guy who wants to build his own streamlined
 speedmonster.
 BFG uses the ZCA for some implementation details, I'm not sure if that
 is the same as 'builds on the ZCA'. I don't think you can use the ZTK
 with BFG - the vast majority of ZTK packages are too tied to concepts
 that do not apply to BFG.
 BFG applications won't likely use the ZTK as a whole, but many of the
 deployed ones do use some ZTK packages beyond the bare ZCA parts. e.g.
 the catalog code, SMTP integration, etc.
 
 I thought repoze forked exactly those parts (repoze.catalog and 
 repoze.sendmail) to get rid of all the ZTK-assumptions?

I wrote a bit too casually:  repoze.catalog still uses zope.index, but
does not depend on zope.catalog.


Tres.
- --
===
Tres Seaver  +1 540-429-0999  tsea...@palladion.com
Palladion Software   Excellence by Designhttp://palladion.com
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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wwAAni/g/6dTi1Vql5h8lAgU/ZkcLz9K
=hwM0
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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[Zope-dev] quitting the ZTK steering group

2010-01-22 Thread Martijn Faassen
Hi there,

This is to announce my withdrawal from the Zope Toolkit steering
group.

I withdraw from the Zope Toolkit steering group for two reasons:

* The steering group is not working as a group. Most steering group
   members haven't been doing much steering. This left me by myself to
   try to give direction. I cannot blame the others for committing
   their time differently, but this isn't the balance of work I signed
   up for.

* Trying to steer the ZTK took a large amount of my energy. The
   discussions are quite draining and the benefit to me has not
   been worth the frustration.

In the past year we've made large changes to the dependency structure
of packages, cleaning it up. We've also improved compat testing and
dependency analysis infrastructure a lot.

That's the technical part. The community consequences are also
important. We've been able to redefine the focus of various projects
under the Zope umbrella. Separating the concern of the ZTK from Zope 3
made another refocusing project like BlueBream possible, and made more
clear the relation Grok and Zope 2 have with the libraries in the ZTK.

I think there is a lot more that can be done, but I don't want to feel 
responsible for it.

Here is my analysis of problems with the ZTK:

* Unclear leadership situation. I tried to resolve this by founding
   the ZTK project and steering group in the first place. Besides the
   time investment problems mentioned before, this (my?) leadership is
   also not fully accepted, or its judgment is not fully trusted.

* Even though endless discussions take place, communication is
   frequently poor and frustrating at the same time. Bigger changes
   take too much energy to discuss. People give up even trying to
   cooperate and do it alone as it's a way to get things done. This
   creates a vicious cycle.

* The commitment of parties to work together on the ZTK is
   fragile. Witness Zope 2 withdrawing from the ZTK quickly
   after some disagreements (with me).

My commitment to leading the ZTK as a community project has now 
disappeared as well. I am primarily interested in the development of 
Grok. I came to the ZTK to tackle important issues for Grok, and now am 
going to focus my attention on Grok again. This means that I may 
contribute to the vicious cycle I mentioned above, but so be it.

What this means for the ZTK or the steering group I do not know. The ZTK 
matters to me as a foundation to Grok. In a wider sense, I believe that 
a broader base of people using the ZTK is good for the Zope community 
and Grok as well. I also believe a person or group who offers leadership 
and has a final say is healthy for the project -- just random interested 
people voting -1 or +1 or -1000 or +1000 on the mailing list is a recipe 
for stagnation. We will have to see what the steering group, or anyone 
else, will come up with.

I've tried to ignore zope-dev as much as possible recently, because I 
don't want to be dragged back into sometimes frustrating discussions. If 
you want to reach me you can email me or talk on grok-dev.

Good luck, everybody.

Martijn

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Re: [Zope-dev] Where is the position of BlueBream in Zope ecosystem ?

2010-01-22 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 22:09, Chris McDonough chr...@plope.com wrote:
 Cool picture, but I might put ZCA at its own level (maybe by moving Zope
 Toolkit to the framework level, or giving it its own level).

It's possible that the component level is pointless. I mostly wanted
the framework level and the application level, and I stuck the
component level in there too, while I was at it. :)

I also don't know of any applications running on the other frameworks,
which is why it's so empty there.
I guess I should upload the svg somewhere.

-- 
Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok
http://regebro.wordpress.com/
+33 661 58 14 64
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Re: [Zope-dev] Where is the position of BlueBream in Zope ecosystem ?

2010-01-22 Thread Hanno Schlichting
On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 10:37 PM, Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com wrote:
 I also don't know of any applications running on the other frameworks,
 which is why it's so empty there.

SchoolTool and Launchpad have been mentioned as Zope3 applications in
the past. Karl would be an example for BFG. Not sure if there's a
canonical example for Grok.

Hanno
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Re: [Zope-dev] Where is the position of BlueBream in Zope ecosystem ?

2010-01-22 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 22:44, Hanno Schlichting ha...@hannosch.eu wrote:
 On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 10:37 PM, Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com wrote:
 I also don't know of any applications running on the other frameworks,
 which is why it's so empty there.

 SchoolTool and Launchpad have been mentioned as Zope3 applications in
 the past. Karl would be an example for BFG. Not sure if there's a
 canonical example for Grok.

Ah, yes, Schooltool and KARL, of course, I forgot about them.
Is Launchpad available as an application you can install and run?

-- 
Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok
http://regebro.wordpress.com/
+33 661 58 14 64
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Re: [Zope-dev] Where is the position of BlueBream in Zope ecosystem ?

2010-01-22 Thread Gary Poster

On Jan 22, 2010, at 4:51 PM, Lennart Regebro wrote:

 On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 22:44, Hanno Schlichting ha...@hannosch.eu wrote:
 On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 10:37 PM, Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com wrote:
 I also don't know of any applications running on the other frameworks,
 which is why it's so empty there.
 
 SchoolTool and Launchpad have been mentioned as Zope3 applications in
 the past. Karl would be an example for BFG. Not sure if there's a
 canonical example for Grok.
 
 Ah, yes, Schooltool and KARL, of course, I forgot about them.
 Is Launchpad available as an application you can install and run?

Nominally, yes.  If you are willing to let it have its way with your system.

Gary
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Re: [Zope-dev] Where is the position of BlueBream in Zope ecosystem ?

2010-01-22 Thread Hanno Schlichting
On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com wrote:
 Is Launchpad available as an application you can install and run?

For some definition of that, yes: https://dev.launchpad.net/

Hanno
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Re: [Zope-dev] quitting the ZTK steering group

2010-01-22 Thread Jan-Wijbrand Kolman
Martijn Faassen faas...@startifact.com wrote:
 Hi there,
 
 This is to announce my withdrawal from the Zope Toolkit steering
 group.

I'm not sure if you're reading this, but I wanted to thank you anyway 
for the tremendous amount of energy you've put into the steering 
group.

kind regards,
jw


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