[Zope-dev] How long below the radar?

2001-07-11 Thread jimbo

Hold that thought.  In order to fully answer the question I have to ask myself why I 
choose to use a below the radar system in the first place. I'ts said that nothings 
truly *Free* as in product advertising everything has its cost.  When we look at the 
*cost* compared to other systems Zope/Python wins hands down in all the *right* areas. 
 Its just plain abuse of money and power that keeps Zope/Python where it is. Does'nt 
matter if it's coming from this camp or another something must be done soon. It boils 
down to this.
  Back in the old days if you had something faster, quicker, and better you cleary 
would be the winner.  Too many people were worried about their evestments so of course 
they stuck with the *hot* tickets.  But it would be too expensise to go head to head 
with the big boys no I think that true interprise is going to be in turmoil.  For 
Instance now that things like MCSE, and CISCO are now part of public college 
institutions that means what?  The climate is such that if its not Microsoft or Sun 
forget it.  I'm not knocking either company I support them 100%.  But here's my 
example.
  I'm taking a course at a local college and I sit next to a guy that says he only 
needs to get his MCSE and he will be gainfully employed.  I asked him if he felt the 
need to learn any programming languages and he said no. I doubt very much that this 
person would ever be inclined to select anything Zope/Python. The big companies spent 
their money well. Do like they do.DC needs to create Zope Certificatied 
Desginer/Technicans and shops.  Make it commercial *looking* as *freely* possible.
  Ok back to whats wrong with it. Secure E-commerce Support out the box is one thing. 
I think we need to hear more of zope coming from out of the major players mouth as a 
major player.
  Or is it?  There are quite a few choices out there, but what really makes 
Zope/Python the clear winner.  They already have most of the commercial qualities 
needed to be the best of the best. 
We have to make them see the value. like Red Hat Distros, Certifications, and  plug 
and play software.  Things like Talk shows would be nice.

Hey I got dibs on the Zope Certification/Testing center track/fishbowl/proposal thing 
if one doesnt already exist?  and it's possible for a 3rd party to do such a thing.

The thing that I can't understand is that in my state the government workers 
threatened to strike, and dot-coms failed because of money problems. They also have 
millions tied up in building a technology center. My thing is that Things like 
Zope/Python should be taught/used right along side the others in the schools.  DC 
should be sending free to schools an easy to install package that allows them to have 
some limited *commercial* looking front-end. If they can actually see and feel and 
*burn* copies of an actuall cool looking product CD with all the products on the CD.

I need some sleep,
Cheerio

-Jimbo

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[Zope-dev] How long below the radar?

2001-07-11 Thread jimbo

Case in point.

I'm at my local technical college library looking for material.  No books on UML or 
Python. Ok fine they don't teach either one. They don't plan on carring a copy of the 
Zope book when it comes out.

btw wondering when do the people that won *free*  copies get theirs.
  I should be on that list.
I made suggestions on what I could do to petition/campaign them to carry the book, and 
they said write something up.
  Personally when I think of *library* I think of a respository of tidbits of 
information stored in some manner for me to conviently access.  Zope is free for 
anyone to access and use. It is a tool and it is knowledge.
  Something must be wrong if the library is skewed towards closed source commercial 
products because students aren't getting the *big* picture.

  If you asked me and I were in charge of and the leader of OSS I would go after half. 
If commercial products are going to be in public schools like Cisco, and Microsoft, 
then so should OSS. This way if you shoot for half you'll end up with something.


Doing my part,
-Jimbo

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[Zope-dev] Best Free UML, XMI, Zope/Transwarp tools

2001-06-28 Thread jimbo

I've been  looking for a standard *FREE* tool that I can use to design Zope apps.  I 
think my search is over.  It seems to be a good tool for students because it's free 
and comes with support for Java, Persistence and XMI, Full and partial exchange.

  I wonder if Transwarp is at the point of being able to use UML/XMI stuff.


Here is the URL for the UML tool
http://www.ii.atos-group.com/rhone-alpes/Dom/english/


-Jimbo

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[Zope-dev] ] [Announce] API Documentation Fishbowl Project

2001-06-08 Thread jimbo

--On Wednesday, June 06, 2001 11:50:43 AM -0700 jimbo 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I hope this helps. I wanted to add my feelings on the whole documentation
 issue.  It seems to me that the whole process caters around developers
 too much.

I have to disagree with you **in the context of this thread** for two 
reasons:

Why disagree **in the context of this thread** at all?
Alot of things change quickly in this field, so flexibility is a must to me.


 1. DC has done a lot to improve the documentation for non-developers  in the 
 last year.  The Zope Book(s) should have a major impact when they start to 
 appear on shelves in the next month or so.  

My point

Developer documentation has lagged behind.  

There still is alot of progress being made in that direction



 This thread is about a proposal to improve developer 
documentation.  It says nothing at all about the other *existing* efforts 
by DC and others to improve other types of Zope documentation.

I think you have a misunderstanding of freedom and opensource all in one topic.  I'm 
don't follow you here since I know it helps to get feeback from users of a product. 
I'm talking about improving the API documentation.

  I seriously wonder how good that API is going to do me if I can't use it in the 
workplace today or next week.
Everyday I see post like this
http://lists.zope.org/pipermail/zope-cmf/2001-June/007427.html

excerpt
I'm having trouble using the Guard expression in DCWorkflow 0.2.
Everything else works fine; it's a great product.

I think the call to expr() in the ..
I do not really know what I'm doing there... but it works :)




   My point is Python is/was suppose to be this language so easy and simple that it 
should be the first language to teach a person.  Where does that simplicity get lost 
with Zope I wonder?
  Don't even answer because it does'nt matter to me or the other it departments that 
are going with other solutions.

  So go on while the confusion is there. Go ahead and justify it now by saying 
polishing the API will do it for the masses. When you look at the big picture the 
developer is the smallest user group of any software product.( you have the end-user, 
testers, admins,etc)
That's why it's even more important to make sure the API docs make it easy to 
implement something and not wow this is so cool and has so many features without the 
benefits.

I also think a pretty good example is what Ty and Phillip did with ZPatterns.  They 
had plenty of how-to implement in the API Documentation. It did take alittle while 
though, but thanks many times over for the learning experience it was fun.

In other words half scientific facts(This is)/ half hocus pocus(Do This).



2. One of the main points DC made at this years Python conference was that 
they have tried to focus the Zope core on too many audiences at once.  
Yes a problem.


They 
had to have a clearer focus and chose developers as that focus.  

Of course they did.  We're talking about Core services here.  Like I said before 
once again I think it's the impletation part I'm stuck on.



Of course 
I like this choice because I am a developer, but the more important point 
is that this tighter focus has the potential to make life easier for all of 
us.

No just developers.  You can call it what you want, but it is a tool that developers 
can use to get a job done.  Content mangers and other network admin types about the 
API anyway.  I imagine most if not all of zope users are progammers in some sense.

Incremental restructuring of the Zope core and improved Zope developer 
documentation makes it much easier and more practical for DC and others to 
create layered Zope products that address other communities.  


Seems to be my point also.  Perhaps I stepped in some fishpoo and need to learn how to 
get involved with the Fishbowl process.


Thanks,
Jimbo


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[Zope-dev] [Announce] API Documentation Fishbowl Project

2001-06-08 Thread jimbo

Or how about this person?
http://lists.zope.org/pipermail/zope-cmf/2001-June/007435.html


oh oh a storm gotta go
-jimbo

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[Zope-dev] [Announce] API Documentation Fishbowl Project

2001-06-06 Thread jimbo

I hope this helps. I wanted to add my feelings on the whole documentation issue.  It 
seems to me that the whole process caters around developers too much. I gotta tell you 
I loved Zope the moment I found it.  These days I'm having trouble though wondering 
what is it all for? I've used zope for the past few jobs and the customers did not 
have any interest in using zope so they changed the sites. 

  I believe that if you are a true developer you will/can figure out the api given the 
vast information available today.
  For example the dcworkflow product was just released. I believe the best 
documentation would be  how-to actually use the product.

One thing would be to adjust the documentation to spoon-feed to the masses zope and 
all the wonderful things that people can do with it now!

If you spend too much on wooing developers and not the types doing the hiring, you 
might just end up being a small niche serving hobbiest who do this for fun.

  Please don't banish this wonderful product to Eternal Geekdom by not simplifing the 
documentation by putting together concrete examples on how to implement concepts and 
products.

In short enough geek speek.  Change the language into something the rest of masses can 
understand.  How can I use zope/API to get PAID!  How can I actually make the 
dcworkflow or the core session or the ZPT do something.  Plenty of example uses. I 
think they might call them case studies or something to that effect.



Thanks,
-Jimbo

 

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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope] [BUG] Background processes interfere with Zope's HTTP responses

2000-12-19 Thread jimbo

  He reported, that this response page is build only
  half, then stops, to be completed only half a minute later,

Depending on how long the page is I never  see the bottom. When I use the products 
page I have to refresh 2-3 times to see the bottom part.
  This is thru a proxy only.


  I try to reproduce the behaviour in our test environment
  and fail. I do not have to wait, until the newsletter
  generation finished. Then, I use the official service
  URL and see, I observe the same behaviour.
  The difference: in the test environment, the browser
  connects directly to ZServer; with the official
  URL, it connects via a proxy.

  Puzzling!

I'm having this same sort of problem w/Zope 2.3a1.
I just started trying to use Zope through a proxy.

  If I work directly on the machine I have no problems.


How to fix the problem:

  There should be a (file) control "CloseOnExec", that tells
  Unix to automatically close the file like object upon
  an exec.
  ZServer should probably use it on each of its sockets.
  I can not see a serious application that should have
  direct access to ZServer's HTTP request socket.
I will soon file a bug report into the Collector.
Dieter
I'm on the win32 platform and thought that the problem was with my
proxy software.  Now I'm not so sure.
-Jimbo

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[Zope-dev] Linux Zope - Win2K SQL Server?

2000-12-07 Thread jimbo

I'm still trying to figure out what the missing pieces are... if anyone else
has gotten a Linux Zope talking to a Win2K SQL Server 2000, I would
appreciate some guidance.
It seems I would have to write my own Product from scratch to do this, no
matter what. None of the ODBC Products seem to be available for Unix, and
ODBC from Unix - Windows will require additional software like EasySoft's
ODBC Bridge anyway. Or I could just not use ODBC at all and make some
Product customized to MS SQL Server.

A while back I had to do a job where I needed ODBC from Windows - Linux. I tried a 
product called iODBC and some other open-source ODBC data manager. Never could get the 
data manager configured.
I would suggest sticking with ODBC.  Here is a earlier post on the subject that might 
help.
http://zope.nipltd.com/public/lists/dev-archive.nsf/ByKey/11309A0077896561 

Some may suggest using ActiveState's Perl Methods for Zope and DBD::Proxy.
:)  It's a possibility, but I'd like to see if more conventional solutionsexist.
Sounds painful :-0

-Jimbo

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[Zope-dev] TTW Product not showing up.

2000-11-15 Thread jimbo

In my ZClass I selected CatalogAware and dataskin as base.
I'm not sure what else I'm suppose to do.

SystemError: Failed to import class _ZClass_for_CatalogAware from module Product
s.ZCatalog

-Jimbo

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[Zope-dev] ZPatterns Product distribution not showing up as a product?

2000-11-14 Thread jimbo

Hi,
   If I try to distribute it and leave it set for "Allow redistribution".
Its not showing up in the Zope products directory tree after I untar the 3 files into 
the file system products directory and restarting Zope.

I have a Dataskin based ZClass, 2 Specialist, the default constructor forms. I'm using 
Zope 2.2.2 on win98 ZPatterns 4.3b2.  Is this expected behaviour for a ttw product? It 
works if I export/import it.
-Jimbo

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[Zope-dev] Zpatterns, and ttw products distribution

2000-11-13 Thread jimbo

.
I've managed to change the simple ttw example into a product.  Are you suppose to be 
able to distribute ttw type programs like that?  When I create the tar file its empty.
Latest everything on win98

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