RE: [Zope-dev] Etag support in page templates
Just FYI. Apache 2.0.48 now honors caching of pages which only have Expires set (no need to include Etag and/or Last-Modified), but the 1.3 team hasn't responded and so 1.3.29 still has the bug. With mod_deflate site-wide compression of text/html etc, I guess it's enough candy there for me to upgrade:) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Etag support in page templates
Jens Vagelpohl wrote: +1 Along with that the MS Author Via header garbage should at least be governed by some configuration flag. + as many things as I'm allowed ;-) Then I can finally stop patching production servers that serve up MS office files for download... Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Etag support in page templates
Jamie Heilman wrote: Solution A) Solution B) The correct answer, of course, is to do both... Sorry, but not everyone fronts Zope with a proxy (yes, of coruse they should Jamie, but you have to understand not everyone is qutie as godlike as wants to get going as quickly as possible so they can try thing out, not as correctly as possible... hence the use case of Zope running standalone on a Win98 laptop ;-) In addition, some people's proxies may not be capable of adding the required headers. Finally, if support is added back, I'd like to see if via an API, so I can configure at the application level what headers are sent and from where. I wonder if RESPONSE.setHeader() is sufficient for this? cheers, Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Etag support in page templates
Jamie Heilman wrote: Tres Seaver wrote: The empty E-tag exists to support *very* broken clients (MSOffice over WebFolders); it should be removed, perhaps with a knob which allows re-enabling it for the sites that actually have people editing content using those clients. Yeah it should be removed, but I'd say don't provide any way to add it back (apart from maybe some textual instructions in the doc directory or something). The thing that continues to baffle me is why people add braindamage like this to Zope at all. Some controversial checkins have not been discussed beforehand. I watch the checkins, and I see things that I don't like, but I don't pipe up unless I consider the checkin dangerous. I usually give people the benefit of the doubt. In the case of empty Etags, I think that sending an empty header has been shown to be the wrong choice. I suggest it should be removed from the head and the 2_7 branch. For future reference to any committers: if you modify any HTTP headers sent by Zope, you very likely ought to discuss it before checking it in. Shane ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Etag support in page templates
In the case of empty Etags, I think that sending an empty header has been shown to be the wrong choice. I suggest it should be removed from the head and the 2_7 branch. For future reference to any committers: if you modify any HTTP headers sent by Zope, you very likely ought to discuss it before checking it in. Shane +1 Along with that the MS Author Via header garbage should at least be governed by some configuration flag. jens ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Etag support in page templates
Jens Vagelpohl wrote: Along with that the MS Author Via header garbage should at least be governed by some configuration flag. No, no, no, you're not seeing the bigger picture... you don't need configuration flags for any of that stuff. It just shouldn't exist, period. If people need to clutter the protocol to make their clients work then they should do so with another filter program. In zserver's case thats going to be the proxy HTTP daemon that it talks to. -- Jamie Heilman http://audible.transient.net/~jamie/ Most people wouldn't know music if it came up and bit them on the ass. -Frank Zappa ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Etag support in page templates
Jens Vagelpohl wrote: Along with that the MS Author Via header garbage should at least be governed by some configuration flag. No, no, no, you're not seeing the bigger picture... you don't need configuration flags for any of that stuff. It just shouldn't exist, period. If people need to clutter the protocol to make their clients work then they should do so with another filter program. In zserver's case thats going to be the proxy HTTP daemon that it talks to. I'm not looking at the big picture. I'm trying to avoid complaints from people that for one reason or another use those broken M$ clients. jens ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Etag support in page templates
Jens Vagelpohl wrote: I'm not looking at the big picture. I'm trying to avoid complaints from people that for one reason or another use those broken M$ clients. Think about it: Solution A) # Directive: send-empty-etag # # Description: # Add an empty Etag HTTP header to server responses to placate # buggy Microsoft DAV clients. # # Default: off # # Example: # # send-empty-etag on # Directive: send-ms-author-via # # Description: # Add 'MS-Author-Via: DAV' HTTP header to server responses to # placate buggy Microsoft DAV clients. # # Default: off # # Example: # # send-ms-author-via on add, all the supporting code for this configuration and its implementation add, maintenance of said support code Result: The users will ask, Why doesn't my Office application work with Zope? The zope oracle will respond, It can, but you have to enable the send-empty-etag and send-ms-author-via directives in your zope.conf. The user will respond, OK, thanks. Solution B) in doc/WebDAV.txt or similar: Some Microsoft DAV clients are broken and need special coddling to work with Zope. In particular, extra headers need to be added to the HTTP responses. This can be done by configuring the HTTP proxy server to include these extra headers during conversations with known buggy clients. For example, using Apache's mod_headers: Headers set MS-Author-Via DAV Headers set Etag add, maintenance of said document Result: The users will ask, Why doesn't my Office application work with Zope? The zope oracle will respond, It can, but you have to configure your HTTP proxy to overcome Microsofts buggy DAV implementation, read doc/WebDAV.txt for more information. The user will respond, OK, thanks. Now... which of these scenarios do you think is in Zope's best interest? -- Jamie Heilman http://audible.transient.net/~jamie/ ...thats the metaphorical equivalent of flopping your wedding tackle into a lion's mouth and flicking his lovespuds with a wet towel, pure insanity... -Rimmer ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Etag support in page templates
Tres Seaver wrote: The empty E-tag exists to support *very* broken clients (MSOffice over WebFolders); it should be removed, perhaps with a knob which allows re-enabling it for the sites that actually have people editing content using those clients. Yeah it should be removed, but I'd say don't provide any way to add it back (apart from maybe some textual instructions in the doc directory or something). The thing that continues to baffle me is why people add braindamage like this to Zope at all. Its not the correct place to add dumb workarounds for dumber clients, the correct place is to use an external program that wraps the clean conversation and inserts this junk on the fly. I bet you could do it with apache's mod_headers for example. Same story for that MS-Author-Via junk. Poluting Zope's source code isn't the right answer. -- Jamie Heilman http://audible.transient.net/~jamie/ You came all this way, without saying squat, and now you're trying to tell me a '56 Chevy can beat a '47 Buick in a dead quarter mile? I liked you better when you weren't saying squat kid. -Buddy ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
RE: [Zope-dev] Etag support in page templates
On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 22:59, Bjorn Stabell wrote: Dieter wrote: Please read the HTTP 1.1 spec... Caching requires either an ETag or Last-Modified header. For good reasons... That would explain why it never got fixed, but that's not how I understand the RFC: http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616.html I reread the HTTP 1.1 spec and you are right. Section 13.4 allows any successful response to be cached unless prohibited by a cache-control directive, while it does not expect caching if there is neither a cache validator (ETag, Last-Modified) nor an expiration time. Dieter ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Etag support in page templates
Bjorn Stabell wrote at 2003-9-11 14:45 +0800: ... Also, in most cases, the content of pages doesn't all come from one object, so Last-Modfied doesn't really make sense since it should refer to the whole page. I think the problem is with Apache's inability to cache content with Expires set, and that Apache should be fixed. Please read the HTTP 1.1 spec... Caching requires either an ETag or Last-Modified header. For good reasons... Dieter ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Etag support in page templates
Janko wrote: I think, this is one problem with the current code. There is no defined way to decide, when something is last modified. With CMF-based sites there is a clearly defined property for this. On the other hand all objects have at least a bobobase_modification_time, but this one changes with every ZODB action on the object. I'm not sure what to do. Also, in most cases, the content of pages doesn't all come from one object, so Last-Modfied doesn't really make sense since it should refer to the whole page. I think the problem is with Apache's inability to cache content with Expires set, and that Apache should be fixed. ETAG NOTES As for Zope, I'm not sure if setting and empty Etag header is the right thing to do if no Etag was provided...? I've been thinking about how Zope could be extended to support HTTP validators on Etags. How about this (Page Templates = ZPT or DTML): - Page Templates are extended with a customizable Etag function/ property. Could be part of the cachable interface. You should set this to return a different etag if, and only if, the content of the page was different. - Page Templates are extended to support If-Match and other such conditionals by calling the customized Etag function and returning 304 Not Modified if the Etag conditions are met (e.g., the calculated etag is the same as the browser/cache provided etag). - Upon rendering the top most Page Template the Etag is automatically calculated and included in the HTTP Headers. If all objects have an etag (Zope seems to be going in that direction looking at the WebDAV code), then a simple way to calculate the etag for a page would be the hash of all the etags for all of the content of that page added together (string concats). Another way could be to let the etag change every X seconds (to simulate the current expires caching model). Bye, -- Bjorn ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
