On Sun, 2009-04-19 at 16:32 +0200, Lennart Regebro wrote:
I'm getting really tired of this discussion, and also that nobody
comment either positively or negatively on what I write, but just
seems to ignore it, which is frustrating, as it makes me think I'm
completely right but nobody gets it.
Jonathan (dev101) wrote:
How about starting with Zope 3 Toolkit and then moving to Zope Toolkit
after a year or so.
I'll repeat it again: the Zope Toolkit is not intended to fulfill the
same role as Zope 3. You imply something like that here. I know that the
Zope Toolkit isn't the same as
Stephan Richter wrote:
On Sunday 19 April 2009, Tres Seaver wrote:
-1. As a branding choice (as opposed to a technology), Zope 3 *is* a
dead-end: it implies a strategy (replacing Zope 2) which we no longer
believe in. I think the consequences of the brand confusion are hard
for those uf us
Hey Jonathan,
Jonathan (dev101) wrote:
I was going to try to further explain my compromise which tried to
move in the direction you are attempting, but upon reflection decided
that you are completely right and that no-one else gets it (we are
all as dumb as stones), so instead...
Am Montag, 20. April 2009 09:35 schrieb Martijn Faassen:
Stephan Richter wrote:
...
I never communicated to anyone that I believe that Zope 3 is
a successor of Zope 2. Other people pushed that message.
That message has been out there from the start, no matter how
it arose. One way this
Helmut Merz wrote:
[snip story]
So that's my story.
@Martijn: do you still have access to the PSU time machine? It
would be great if you could verify this somehow. Or maybe you
can even get clearer and more consistent information...
:)
We need to learn more about this Zivilisation! I
Stephan Richter wrote:
On Sunday 19 April 2009, Tres Seaver wrote:
-1. As a branding choice (as opposed to a technology), Zope 3 *is* a
dead-end: it implies a strategy (replacing Zope 2) which we no longer
believe in. I think the consequences of the brand confusion are hard
for those uf us
On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 08:32:52AM -0600, Shane Hathaway wrote:
Given that definition, Zope Toolkit will start relatively small, since
much of Zope 3 does not yet qualify. However, as people refine
packages, the packages will be reconsidered for inclusion in the Zope
Toolkit, and the Zope
Albertas Agejevas wrote:
On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 08:32:52AM -0600, Shane Hathaway wrote:
Given that definition, Zope Toolkit will start relatively small, since
much of Zope 3 does not yet qualify. However, as people refine
packages, the packages will be reconsidered for inclusion in the Zope
Shane Hathaway wrote:
1. Candidate must be have Zope 3 experience.
2. Candidate must be experienced with the Zope Toolkit.
Of course I meant...
1. Candidate must have Zope 3 experience.
2. Candidate must have Zope Toolkit experience.
Shane
___
Am Montag, 20. April 2009 16:11 schrieb Martijn Faassen:
Helmut Merz wrote:
[snip story]
So that's my story.
@Martijn: do you still have access to the PSU time machine?
It would be great if you could verify this somehow. Or maybe
you can even get clearer and more consistent
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 18:42, Shane Hathaway sh...@hathawaymix.org wrote:
It occurred to me that one simple test of a Zope naming scheme is to
consider what employers will write in job descriptions.
That's a bloody good point.
--
Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok
Lennart Regebro wrote:
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 18:42, Shane Hathaway sh...@hathawaymix.org wrote:
It occurred to me that one simple test of a Zope naming scheme is to
consider what employers will write in job descriptions.
That's a bloody good point.
Thanks. I take it this point reinforces
Lennart Regebro wrote:
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 23:32, Shane Hathaway sh...@hathawaymix.org wrote:
Also, it follows the open source tradition of slightly whimsical names. The
logo could be a train engine driven by a Zope fish. :-)
Done. Does this mailing list accept attachements?
Wowsers.
On 4/20/09 3:35 AM, Martijn Faassen wrote:
Stephan Richter wrote:
On Sunday 19 April 2009, Tres Seaver wrote:
-1. As a branding choice (as opposed to a technology), Zope 3 *is* a
dead-end: it implies a strategy (replacing Zope 2) which we no longer
believe in. I think the consequences of
On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 04:43, Stephan Richter
srich...@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu wrote:
On Thursday 16 April 2009, Tres Seaver wrote:
I would rather that we stop pushing the Zope 3 brand now,
I would rather keep the name Zope 3.
That's too bad, as it means that after all this discussion were are
, 2009 5:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Defining Zope 3.
On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 04:43, Stephan Richter
srich...@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu wrote:
On Thursday 16 April 2009, Tres Seaver wrote:
I would rather that we stop pushing the Zope 3 brand now,
I would rather keep the name Zope 3.
That's too bad
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Jonathan (dev101) wrote:
How about starting with Zope 3 Toolkit and then moving to Zope Toolkit
after a year or so.
This evolutionary approach may address some of the issues that have been
raised:
- there would be no sudden disappearance of
On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 15:02, Jonathan (dev101) dev...@magma.ca wrote:
How about starting with Zope 3 Toolkit and then moving to Zope Toolkit
after a year or so.
It's quite clear that nobody outside the community knows what Zope 3
is, and withing the community everybody disagrees on what Zope
On Sunday 19 April 2009, Jonathan (dev101) wrote:
How about starting with Zope 3 Toolkit and then moving to Zope Toolkit
after a year or so.
The Toolkit is not the same as Zope 3.
Regards,
Stephan
--
Stephan Richter
Web Software Design, Development and Training
Google me. Zope Stephan Richter
On Sunday 19 April 2009, Tres Seaver wrote:
-1. As a branding choice (as opposed to a technology), Zope 3 *is* a
dead-end: it implies a strategy (replacing Zope 2) which we no longer
believe in. I think the consequences of the brand confusion are hard
for those uf us inside to estimate, but
Martijn Faassen wrote:
You're right of course, I apologize for going that way. I have little
excuse for that.
You've taken a lot of heat in this thread. I hope that doesn't bother
you too much, because I think you're an extremely valuable team member.
This kind of discussion is hard, but it
On Thursday 16 April 2009, Tres Seaver wrote:
I would rather that we stop pushing the Zope 3 brand now,
I would rather keep the name Zope 3.
Regards,
Stephan
--
Stephan Richter
Web Software Design, Development and Training
Google me. Zope Stephan Richter
Hey,
Martin Aspeli wrote:
[snip]
I do realise that this derails Maritjn's focus slightly, but I don't
think we've lost the idea that there may be value in maintaining a
larger KGS.
The whole idea of whatever-Zope 3-is-designated-as just being a larger
KGS strikes me as strange. Frankly it
Martijn Faassen wrote:
Hey,
Martin Aspeli wrote:
[snip]
I do realise that this derails Maritjn's focus slightly, but I don't
think we've lost the idea that there may be value in maintaining a
larger KGS.
The whole idea of whatever-Zope 3-is-designated-as just being a larger
KGS
Hey Martin,
Martin Aspeli wrote:
[snip]
Sigh... this discussion is just really difficult. I don't really
understand what the problem is here, or why it's indicative of what's
wrong with this community, but then I'm pretty lost in concepts and
names at this stage.
I think you're reading
Wow, long thread started just from an attempt to define the words we
were talking about. :)
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 10:04, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.com wrote:
I'll say again, though: Gary's version of the story (the Zope 3
community has become focused on supporting other app servers
Martijn Faassen schrieb:
Hey,
Martijn Faassen wrote:
[snip]
I put a mark in my calendar for October to reconsider the future of the
name Zope 3 then.
Given the responses to this thread I'm starting to lean towards pushing
the message to the outside that Zope 3 has become Zope Toolkit,
Rob Miller schrieb:
Gary Poster wrote:
This message seems like a reasonable start to me: Zope 3 has become
focused on supporting frameworks and applications, rather than trying
to be one itself. It is now called the Zope Toolkit. Parts of it are
used by Zope 2, Plone, Grok,
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 14:47, Carsten Senger sen...@rehfisch.de wrote:
Pushing this message inside the zope community is perfect. But I don't
see a need to communicate to outsiders that Zope 3 has become the Zope
Toolkit. This will be confusing to outsiders. They don't have to think
about
Lennart Regebro schrieb:
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 14:47, Carsten Senger sen...@rehfisch.de wrote:
Pushing this message inside the zope community is perfect. But I don't
see a need to communicate to outsiders that Zope 3 has become the Zope
Toolkit. This will be confusing to outsiders. They
Hey,
Carsten Senger wrote:
[snip]
Btw: Somebody should change Zope Framework to Zope Toolkit on
zope.org and remove the version number v3.5 from the Zope Toolkit
documentation.
Could you fix the Zope Toolkit documentation and change it to 1.0? It's
in SVN.
It'd be very nice if you could
Hey,
Lennart Regebro wrote:
A more truthful story is that Zope Toolkit is a base for writing
frameworks, and that one of those frameworks was Zope 3, now renamed
to something cool. But the support in this thread for the previous
story makes me wonder if we shouldn't push that, slightly more
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 16:51, Martijn Faassen faas...@startifact.com wrote:
We should just retain the Zope 3 name to the outside world for the time
being, but de-emphasize it in our communication. We push Zope Toolkit a
lot more. If people want to get started using the toolkit, we point them
On Apr 17, 2009, at 11:49 AM, Martijn Faassen wrote:
Simon Michael wrote:
-1, Gary's is clearer.
I think what is clear or not is very subjective. I think that at least
is clear.
I think it is clear that you are disregarding many people's opinions.
Jim
--
Jim Fulton
Zope Corporation
Jim Fulton wrote:
On Apr 17, 2009, at 11:49 AM, Martijn Faassen wrote:
Simon Michael wrote:
-1, Gary's is clearer.
I think what is clear or not is very subjective. I think that at least
is clear.
I think it is clear that you are disregarding many people's opinions.
censored by the PSU
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 17:07, Simon Michael si...@joyful.com wrote:
-1, Gary's is clearer.
But still not accurate. I've yet hear anybody actually support the
point of view that we should (internally or externally) push a story
that is not really true. If this indeed is the opinion of the
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 18:00, Jim Fulton j...@zope.com wrote:
I think it is clear that you are disregarding many people's opinions.
What opinions have been disregarded, more exactly?
--
Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok
http://regebro.wordpress.com/
+33 661 58 14 64
On Apr 17, 2009, at 12:17 PM, Lennart Regebro wrote:
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 18:00, Jim Fulton j...@zope.com wrote:
I think it is clear that you are disregarding many people's opinions.
What opinions have been disregarded, more exactly?
Gary's, Mine, Tres', Simon's, Benji's and others I
Jim Fulton wrote:
On Apr 17, 2009, at 11:49 AM, Martijn Faassen wrote:
Simon Michael wrote:
-1, Gary's is clearer.
I think what is clear or not is very subjective. I think that at least
is clear.
I think it is clear that you are disregarding many people's opinions.
Okay, I'll come
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Martijn Faassen wrote:
Jim Fulton wrote:
On Apr 17, 2009, at 11:49 AM, Martijn Faassen wrote:
Simon Michael wrote:
-1, Gary's is clearer.
I think what is clear or not is very subjective. I think that at least
is clear.
I think it is clear
Jim Fulton wrote:
On Apr 17, 2009, at 12:17 PM, Lennart Regebro wrote:
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 18:00, Jim Fulton j...@zope.com wrote:
I think it is clear that you are disregarding many people's opinions.
What opinions have been disregarded, more exactly?
Gary's, Mine, Tres', Simon's,
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 18:25, Jim Fulton j...@zope.com wrote:
Gary's, Mine, Tres', Simon's, Benji's and others I could find if I trolled
through the thread, which I won't.
I can't see how these have been disregarded. Gary proposed that we say
that Zope 3 has been renamed to the Zope Toolkit.
Lennart Regebro wrote:
So, if I'm gonna act hurt, I'll claim that anybodys opinion here is
being disregarded, it's mine. ;-)
And I'll state it again, for clarities sake:
I think that Zope 3 should be renamed. I proposed Blue Bream (and
...
I have still to see any arguments against this. If
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 19:03, Simon Michael si...@joyful.com wrote:
Um.. people will laugh at us ?
No, *with* us. Big difference. :)
--
Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok
http://regebro.wordpress.com/
+33 661 58 14 64
___
Zope-Dev maillist
Martijn Faassen wrote:
Hey Martin,
Martin Aspeli wrote:
[snip]
Sigh... this discussion is just really difficult. I don't really
understand what the problem is here, or why it's indicative of what's
wrong with this community, but then I'm pretty lost in concepts and
names at this stage.
Hey Rob,
Rob Miller wrote:
[snip]
sure, i understand what you're saying here. it'd be great if some set of
folks who are using the full Z3 app server platform decided to step up,
create
a website, refine the branding, and just generally breathe life into the
project. but, until someone
+1 with Tres' position.
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 9:47 AM, Tres Seaver tsea...@palladion.com wrote:
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Martijn Faassen wrote:
Jim Fulton wrote:
On Apr 17, 2009, at 11:49 AM, Martijn Faassen wrote:
Simon Michael wrote:
-1, Gary's is clearer.
On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 06:06, Gary Poster gary.pos...@gmail.com wrote:
So, again, in sum, I propose that this discussion should simply be reduced
to a rename to start with: Zope 3, as defined by the KGS - Zope Toolkit.
As I understand it (but Martijn may correct me) the Zope Toolkit will
have
I'am an almost passive reader of this list and typical 'user', or lets
say, software I write is a consumer of all this useful Zope-SOMETHING.
I observed your discussion and read all the threads and I wasnt sure all
the time if its the right direction. Writing code is better than
discussing
Jens W. Klein wrote:
[snip]
I would divide the Zope Toolkit in two parts:
(1) The real core which has to be mature. I doubt its all current 50-70
packages (dont ask me which parts this are, most of the active authors
here are knowing it better)
(2) The more loose ends where more agility
Hey,
Gary Poster wrote:
[snip]
So, again, in sum, I propose that this discussion should simply be
reduced to a rename to start with: Zope 3, as defined by the KGS -
Zope Toolkit. The software switch that this name change implies has
started quite some time ago, with the eggification,
Thank you for saying this so well.
+1
Jim
On Apr 16, 2009, at 12:06 AM, Gary Poster wrote:
On Apr 15, 2009, at 11:28 AM, Lennart Regebro wrote:
Here are a list of things I have seen that you may mean when you say
Zope 3. I'm sure I missed several:
1. Whatever is included in the Zope 3
On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 12:06 AM, Gary Poster gary.pos...@gmail.com wrote:
This message seems like a reasonable start to me: Zope 3 has become
focused on supporting frameworks and applications, rather than trying
to be one itself. It is now called the Zope Toolkit. Parts of it are
used by
Lennart Regebro wrote:
On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 06:06, Gary Poster gary.pos...@gmail.com wrote:
So, again, in sum, I propose that this discussion should simply be reduced
to a rename to start with: Zope 3, as defined by the KGS - Zope Toolkit.
As I understand it (but Martijn may correct me)
This message seems like a reasonable start to me: Zope 3 has become
focused on supporting frameworks and applications, rather than trying
to be one itself. It is now called the Zope Toolkit. Parts of it are
used by Zope 2, Plone, Grok, Repoze.bfg, and by many other different
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Martijn Faassen wrote:
Lennart Regebro wrote:
On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 06:06, Gary Poster gary.pos...@gmail.com wrote:
So, again, in sum, I propose that this discussion should simply be reduced
to a rename to start with: Zope 3, as defined by the
Hey,
Simon Michael wrote:
[snip]
Insiders know that the Toolkit going forward will be much more focussed than
old Zope 3 was, but outsiders don't need
those details; outsiders certainly won't understand subtle intra-project
renamings and dyings. If some of those details
are positive
Hey,
Martijn Faassen wrote:
[snip]
I put a mark in my calendar for October to reconsider the future of the
name Zope 3 then.
Given the responses to this thread I'm starting to lean towards pushing
the message to the outside that Zope 3 has become Zope Toolkit, has a
different focus,
Gary Poster wrote:
This message seems like a reasonable start to me: Zope 3 has become
focused on supporting frameworks and applications, rather than trying
to be one itself. It is now called the Zope Toolkit. Parts of it are
used by Zope 2, Plone, Grok, Repoze.bfg, and by many other
Martijn Faassen wrote:
If we want to do this right we need to come up with a good way to get
the message out.
I think the only way you're going to manage to do that, is if you have a
website with a clear and unambiguous message on it.
It's like deja-vu all over again...
Martin
--
Author
Rob Miller wrote:
Gary Poster wrote:
This message seems like a reasonable start to me: Zope 3 has become
focused on supporting frameworks and applications, rather than trying
to be one itself. It is now called the Zope Toolkit. Parts of it are
used by Zope 2, Plone, Grok, Repoze.bfg,
On Apr 15, 2009, at 11:28 AM, Lennart Regebro wrote:
Here are a list of things I have seen that you may mean when you say
Zope 3. I'm sure I missed several:
1. Whatever is included in the Zope 3 tgz that you download.
2. All the packages included in the Zope 3 KGS. (Should be the same as
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