Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
You might have a point there. RedHat seem to have quite a functional business model going on, perhaps zope could borrow some ideas from there. I know that many people that currently run Linux (Home and work) would no do so except for RedHat, Suse or Mandrake. Adrian... -- Adrian Hungate All views expressed in this email are those of the whole world, however some people don't realise this yet. - Original Message - From: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jeffrey P Shell [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 12:33 AM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev Where's the $99 version of Zope? The $499? The $1499? The $25999? Zope Corp hasn't pulled that card out like many other vendors have. There are actually many pieces of Zope that were initially commercial add-ons (or intended to be) that are now all open source. I sometimes have the feeling that we might NEED a $xx(x) version of Zope -- a ready-to-go, preconfigured Zope distro with a decent manual. Not for us, the community, but for the average user. O.k., we could do it for free, but would there be a Red Hat or SuSE Linux distro if it was totally for free? It even CAN be downloaded for free, and still people are willing to pay for it. And the money is needed. Without the support from the major Linux distributors, projects like XFree would probably be in big trouble ... This is a totally different business model than the one Zope Corp. is using right now, but it might help refinancing the overhead a good community needs to have ... Just my 2 (euro)cents ... Joachim ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
On Sat, 1 Dec 2001 08:50:14 -0500, Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode support inside Zope. But there has been no feedback. It looks like no one needs unicode support in Zope ?! :-) I see the smiley, but Im still not sure whether you are joking. Ive had stable, mature unicode support available as patches since Zope version 2.1. Im sure Andreas is familiar with them, we have discussed some details on more than one occasion. Ive expressed to DC several times that I am keen to get these patches into the zope core, and at Brian's request documented the changes in two fishbowl proposals (even that request seemed cheeky at the time; my patches were stable long before the fishbowl process ;-). He said he was keen to get something into version 2.3, then version 2.4, but so far nothing. The opening of the CVS is a good starting point but I would like to see more people contributing. So far it really does appear that nothing will happen about this particular issue until it is needed by a zope.com consulting project. If there is anything more that I can do then somebody please tell me what. Toby Dickenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
Clearly this is a situation that has broken down. I'll suggest a resolution in a private note to you in a sec. --Paul Toby Dickenson wrote: On Sat, 1 Dec 2001 08:50:14 -0500, Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode support inside Zope. But there has been no feedback. It looks like no one needs unicode support in Zope ?! :-) I see the smiley, but Im still not sure whether you are joking. Ive had stable, mature unicode support available as patches since Zope version 2.1. Im sure Andreas is familiar with them, we have discussed some details on more than one occasion. Ive expressed to DC several times that I am keen to get these patches into the zope core, and at Brian's request documented the changes in two fishbowl proposals (even that request seemed cheeky at the time; my patches were stable long before the fishbowl process ;-). He said he was keen to get something into version 2.3, then version 2.4, but so far nothing. The opening of the CVS is a good starting point but I would like to see more people contributing. So far it really does appear that nothing will happen about this particular issue until it is needed by a zope.com consulting project. If there is anything more that I can do then somebody please tell me what. Toby Dickenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: core i18n support (was [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev)
As both Robert and Joachim (in another message) have noted, core i18n support is blocked by a single issue: there are two different approaches and insufficient consensus about resolving them. The first criteria that I have is whether someone is willing to become a CVS contributor and shepherd i18n in a responsible fashion, as Martijn Faassen has done with XML. In this sense we suffer from an embarassment of riches: both Localizer and ZBabel have people willing to step up and provide leadership. Unfortunately there isn't someone with sufficient authority on the subject to annoint one as more right than the other. And an arbitrary decision by ZC is sure to leave hard feelings. Unfortunately this needs to get cleared up soon, so that an i18n team can start influencing the component architecture. I suggest that Stefane and Juan David (Localizer/Nuxeo) and Stephan, Andrew, and Joachim (ZBabel/iuveno) have a little chat and make a recommendation for a small next step. --Paul Robert Rottermann wrote: Andreas, sorry if I have not reacted to a questions for assistance in the realm of i18n. I must have missed them. I rarely go to EuroZope since this site seems badly maintained. However I really would like to help with the internationalization of Zope since most of what we do here a my company must be multilingual. I do have considerable experience making programs translatable and I did a multilanguage CMF (with which I never was really happy) Some 6 Months ago I started to collect what is there regarding i18n and Zope. I did get a sizable number of answers. However there where two rather unfortunate tendencies: - multiple, different and incompatible attempts from our side - missing involvement and therefore no shepherding from ZC's side If, as Paul assures, the second point is about to be rectified it might be now the time to do a second such compilation and then start doing it. Robert - Original Message - From: Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert Rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev - Original Message - From: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert Rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 08:22 Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev The second is pretty exciting as well. I saw a presentation in Paris by Juan David Palomar, of Localizer fame. (The presentation is now up at http://estce.act.uji.es:9673/localizer). The presentation impressed me on the need to get someone into the core of Zope that knows all these details, but also convinced me that the Zope3 effort needs to anticipate the needs of i18n and l10n. ZBabel and Localizer are good starts, but as jdavid says, both should be thought of as non-core projects that start influencing the core step-by-step. Hi! I fully agree that ZBabel and Localizer don't have to be core projects right now. But the core must be made fit for i18n to make sure that we don't have to patch things like the user folder implementation or the Help! button in the code. In Zopw 2.5, there still seem to be hot spots to fix with regard to i18n. Of course there are hot spots. I have asked multiple times for help on the mailing lists and the Eurozope site to identify such related hot spots. Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode support inside Zope. But there has been no feedback. It looks like no one needs unicode support in Zope ?! :-) Anyway, as a first step Zope 2.5 provides full unicode support for the ZCatalog. I would like to see some volunteers that could help to set up a list of requirements (the list is almost there on the Eurozope site I think) and possible solutions that could be integrated into the Zope core. Referring to the open letter to zope-dev I could also charge the community for zero feedback. But this is not the place and time for flamewars. Instead we should bundle the power of ZC and the community. The opening of the CVS is a good starting point but I would like to see more people contributing. Cheers, Andreas ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: core i18n support (was [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev)
Hi, as far as I understand the issue, both I18n solutions coud agree on a common set of features they need in the Zope-core. I think booth should formulate, what their requests are. --On Sonntag, Dezember 02, 2001 13:13:30 -0500 Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As both Robert and Joachim (in another message) have noted, core i18n support is blocked by a single issue: there are two different approaches and insufficient consensus about resolving them. The first criteria that I have is whether someone is willing to become a CVS contributor and shepherd i18n in a responsible fashion, as Martijn Faassen has done with XML. In this sense we suffer from an embarassment of riches: both Localizer and ZBabel have people willing to step up and provide leadership. Unfortunately there isn't someone with sufficient authority on the subject to annoint one as more right than the other. And an arbitrary decision by ZC is sure to leave hard feelings. Unfortunately this needs to get cleared up soon, so that an i18n team can start influencing the component architecture. I suggest that Stefane and Juan David (Localizer/Nuxeo) and Stephan, Andrew, and Joachim (ZBabel/iuveno) have a little chat and make a recommendation for a small next step. --Paul Robert Rottermann wrote: Andreas, sorry if I have not reacted to a questions for assistance in the realm of i18n. I must have missed them. I rarely go to EuroZope since this site seems badly maintained. However I really would like to help with the internationalization of Zope since most of what we do here a my company must be multilingual. I do have considerable experience making programs translatable and I did a multilanguage CMF (with which I never was really happy) Some 6 Months ago I started to collect what is there regarding i18n and Zope. I did get a sizable number of answers. However there where two rather unfortunate tendencies: - multiple, different and incompatible attempts from our side - missing involvement and therefore no shepherding from ZC's side If, as Paul assures, the second point is about to be rectified it might be now the time to do a second such compilation and then start doing it. Robert - Original Message - From: Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert Rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev - Original Message - From: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert Rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 08:22 Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev The second is pretty exciting as well. I saw a presentation in Paris by Juan David Palomar, of Localizer fame. (The presentation is now up at http://estce.act.uji.es:9673/localizer). The presentation impressed me on the need to get someone into the core of Zope that knows all these details, but also convinced me that the Zope3 effort needs to anticipate the needs of i18n and l10n. ZBabel and Localizer are good starts, but as jdavid says, both should be thought of as non-core projects that start influencing the core step-by-step. Hi! I fully agree that ZBabel and Localizer don't have to be core projects right now. But the core must be made fit for i18n to make sure that we don't have to patch things like the user folder implementation or the Help! button in the code. In Zopw 2.5, there still seem to be hot spots to fix with regard to i18n. Of course there are hot spots. I have asked multiple times for help on the mailing lists and the Eurozope site to identify such related hot spots. Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode support inside Zope. But there has been no feedback. It looks like no one needs unicode support in Zope ?! :-) Anyway, as a first step Zope 2.5 provides full unicode support for the ZCatalog. I would like to see some volunteers that could help to set up a list of requirements (the list is almost there on the Eurozope site I think) and possible solutions that could be integrated into the Zope core. Referring to the open letter to zope-dev I could also charge the community for zero feedback. But this is not the place and time for flamewars. Instead we should bundle the power of ZC and the community. The opening of the CVS is a good starting point but I would like to see more people contributing. Cheers, Andreas ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) Mit freundlichen Grüßen Joachim
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
Friends,first thing I want is to express my huge gratitude to have something like Zope and its community.I have read all the all the mail that has been stirred by "that" open letter.I agree very much and I am willing to contribute as much as I can that zope should grow 10x.I found two things missing in the discussion so far that are crucial to attain this goal:- documentationTo start using Zope doing something more than trivial is an incredibly frustrating thing. Hunting for the right piece of documentation is very very hard. The community is very helpful I agree readily. However asking it should be the last resort and being forced to use it as an important part of the developement effort is very cumbersome and time consuming. And does not really take the frustration out of the process.Bruce Eckels postings to this list show that even a developer of his statue is prone to the same effect.I am a seasoned programmer that started to deal with Zope exactly one year ago. It is only now that I learn where to look for what piece of information and to decide which one is relevant and which one is not.- translation supportInternationalisation is crucial. English in the user interface is just not tolerated in a non English speaking part of the world. It is 10 years ago something like that would have been acceptable. I am from Switzerland where we pride ourselves to be multilingual (6 Million inhabitants 4 major languages, English being the fifth). However nobody would think of having anything like English on a public website.There are a number of efforts towards translation support. However to have any of them to succeed it needs the support of ZC which just does not exist.Now I have to hurry getting breakfast(or I get into troubles)Robert
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
Agreed completely on both of those points. There's double good news on both: 1) Someone plans to do something about it. 2) Both are with community involvement. On documentation, someone in the community has committed to taking over the Documentation page on zope.org and finally organizing the myriad of useful, but unlocatable, doc resources out there. The second is pretty exciting as well. I saw a presentation in Paris by Juan David Palomar, of Localizer fame. (The presentation is now up at http://estce.act.uji.es:9673/localizer). The presentation impressed me on the need to get someone into the core of Zope that knows all these details, but also convinced me that the Zope3 effort needs to anticipate the needs of i18n and l10n. I spoke with the guys here doing the extreme programming session on Zope3, and they agreed. To say it again: 1) I think the world of Zope needs to grow 10x in the next year. 2) ZC can't do it, and much of the action in Zope is non-U.S., particularly Europe. 3) Thus, Zope needs a strong, competitive internationalization story. ZBabel and Localizer are good starts, but as jdavid says, both should be thought of as non-core projects that start influencing the core step-by-step. --Paul Robert Rottermann wrote: Friends, first thing I want is to express my huge gratitude to have something like Zope and its community. I have read all the all the mail that has been stirred by that open letter. I agree very much and I am willing to contribute as much as I can that zope should grow 10x. I found two things missing in the discussion so far that are crucial to attain this goal: - documentation To start using Zope doing something more than trivial is an incredibly frustrating thing. Hunting for the right piece of documentation is very very hard. The community is very helpful I agree readily. However asking it should be the last resort and being forced to use it as an important part of the developement effort is very cumbersome and time consuming. And does not really take the frustration out of the process. Bruce Eckels postings to this list show that even a developer of his statue is prone to the same effect. I am a seasoned programmer that started to deal with Zope exactly one year ago. It is only now that I learn where to look for what piece of information and to decide which one is relevant and which one is not. - translation support Internationalisation is crucial. English in the user interface is just not tolerated in a non English speaking part of the world. It is 10 years ago something like that would have been acceptable. I am from Switzerland where we pride ourselves to be multilingual (6 Million inhabitants 4 major languages, English being the fifth). However nobody would think of having anything like English on a public website. There are a number of efforts towards translation support. However to have any of them to succeed it needs the support of ZC which just does not exist. Now I have to hurry getting breakfast (or I get into troubles) Robert ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
Hi! This is a totally different business model than the one Zope Corp. is using right now, but it might help refinancing the overhead a good community needs to have ... Would it have to be done by ZC? No, of course not. And there could be more than one of course (though we'd need a Zope Standards Base like the LSB then ;-)) Joachim ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
The second is pretty exciting as well. I saw a presentation in Paris by Juan David Palomar, of Localizer fame. (The presentation is now up at http://estce.act.uji.es:9673/localizer). The presentation impressed me on the need to get someone into the core of Zope that knows all these details, but also convinced me that the Zope3 effort needs to anticipate the needs of i18n and l10n. ZBabel and Localizer are good starts, but as jdavid says, both should be thought of as non-core projects that start influencing the core step-by-step. Hi! I fully agree that ZBabel and Localizer don't have to be core projects right now. But the core must be made fit for i18n to make sure that we don't have to patch things like the user folder implementation or the Help! button in the code. In Zopw 2.5, there still seem to be hot spots to fix with regard to i18n. The next step would be to agree on ONE syntax for use in Python, ZPT, and DTML (not necessarly the same for each, but not more than ONE way for each). So there can be two or more implementations of internationalization to choose from, but Product maintainers do not have to provide two or more sets of DTML/ZPT files. BTW, it is not too hard to make ZBabel accept Localizer-style tags (which I already implemented in a CVS branch) and vice versa. The remaining difference between ZBabel and Localizer is a rather political one: We, the ZBabel team, are for consequent late binding of translations. That means that we are against having multiple sets of properties for languages. There will only be one set of properties, e.g. in English, and then the BabelTower is used to translate them. This is for non-content things. For content, we prefer the generic approach of ZBabel objects, that actually is able to internationalize everything from images to CMF news (at least in theory). The concept could be extended to have real content negotiation support for Zope. I tried to outline that a bit in my comments at http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/ExplicitNam espaceControlInURLs, which seems to be too hidden to be read. I envision a Zope server to be able to return a content object (e.g. an image) in a variety of supported formats and versions, just by setting the browser content negotiation settings right or choosing an appropriate URL. E.g., a browser that can display png images should get them where appropriate, and somebody who doesn't have MS Word installed should get a PDF version of a document instead, etc. etc. (same with language versions). Joachim ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
- Original Message - From: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert Rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 08:22 Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev The second is pretty exciting as well. I saw a presentation in Paris by Juan David Palomar, of Localizer fame. (The presentation is now up at http://estce.act.uji.es:9673/localizer). The presentation impressed me on the need to get someone into the core of Zope that knows all these details, but also convinced me that the Zope3 effort needs to anticipate the needs of i18n and l10n. ZBabel and Localizer are good starts, but as jdavid says, both should be thought of as non-core projects that start influencing the core step-by-step. Hi! I fully agree that ZBabel and Localizer don't have to be core projects right now. But the core must be made fit for i18n to make sure that we don't have to patch things like the user folder implementation or the Help! button in the code. In Zopw 2.5, there still seem to be hot spots to fix with regard to i18n. Of course there are hot spots. I have asked multiple times for help on the mailing lists and the Eurozope site to identify such related hot spots. Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode support inside Zope. But there has been no feedback. It looks like no one needs unicode support in Zope ?! :-) Anyway, as a first step Zope 2.5 provides full unicode support for the ZCatalog. I would like to see some volunteers that could help to set up a list of requirements (the list is almost there on the Eurozope site I think) and possible solutions that could be integrated into the Zope core. Referring to the open letter to zope-dev I could also charge the community for zero feedback. But this is not the place and time for flamewars. Instead we should bundle the power of ZC and the community. The opening of the CVS is a good starting point but I would like to see more people contributing. Cheers, Andreas ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
Of course there are hot spots. I have asked multiple times for help on the mailing lists and the Eurozope site to identify such related hot spots. Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode support inside Zope. But there has been no feedback. It looks like no one needs unicode support in Zope ?! :-) Anyway, as a first step Zope 2.5 provides full unicode support for the ZCatalog. I would like to see some volunteers that could help to set up a list of requirements (the list is almost there on the Eurozope site I think) and possible solutions that could be integrated into the Zope core. Referring to the open letter to zope-dev I could also charge the community for zero feedback. But this is not the place and time for flamewars. Instead we should bundle the power of ZC and the community. The opening of the CVS is a good starting point but I would like to see more people contributing. I didn't want to blame anybody. BTW: I have already mentioned the two areas Help! button and acl_user add screen a couple of times. These seem to be the two that really are not translateable via DTML. Another issue might be the system messages. In general, if the error handling in general (including the authentication errors that are not curently customizable without diving into the code) is revamped in Zope 3.0 (which I hope), all error messages should be made translateable one way or the other. But of course translations also have their limits. Yesterday I was asked by a collegue whether we should also translate the names of the permissions and roles ... I said Maybe not ... ;-) Regarding the unicode support, everything works flawlessly without as long as one just needs German and English. That's why I don't have too much expertise about unicode. Joachim ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
core i18n support (was [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev)
Andreas, sorry if I have not reacted to a questions for assistance in the realm of i18n. I must have missed them. I rarely go to EuroZope since this site seems badly maintained. However I really would like to help with the internationalization of Zope since most of what we do here a my company must be multilingual. I do have considerable experience making programs translatable and I did a multilanguage CMF (with which I never was really happy) Some 6 Months ago I started to collect what is there regarding i18n and Zope. I did get a sizable number of answers. However there where two rather unfortunate tendencies: - multiple, different and incompatible attempts from our side - missing involvement and therefore no shepherding from ZC's side If, as Paul assures, the second point is about to be rectified it might be now the time to do a second such compilation and then start doing it. Robert - Original Message - From: Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert Rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev - Original Message - From: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert Rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 08:22 Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev The second is pretty exciting as well. I saw a presentation in Paris by Juan David Palomar, of Localizer fame. (The presentation is now up at http://estce.act.uji.es:9673/localizer). The presentation impressed me on the need to get someone into the core of Zope that knows all these details, but also convinced me that the Zope3 effort needs to anticipate the needs of i18n and l10n. ZBabel and Localizer are good starts, but as jdavid says, both should be thought of as non-core projects that start influencing the core step-by-step. Hi! I fully agree that ZBabel and Localizer don't have to be core projects right now. But the core must be made fit for i18n to make sure that we don't have to patch things like the user folder implementation or the Help! button in the code. In Zopw 2.5, there still seem to be hot spots to fix with regard to i18n. Of course there are hot spots. I have asked multiple times for help on the mailing lists and the Eurozope site to identify such related hot spots. Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode support inside Zope. But there has been no feedback. It looks like no one needs unicode support in Zope ?! :-) Anyway, as a first step Zope 2.5 provides full unicode support for the ZCatalog. I would like to see some volunteers that could help to set up a list of requirements (the list is almost there on the Eurozope site I think) and possible solutions that could be integrated into the Zope core. Referring to the open letter to zope-dev I could also charge the community for zero feedback. But this is not the place and time for flamewars. Instead we should bundle the power of ZC and the community. The opening of the CVS is a good starting point but I would like to see more people contributing. Cheers, Andreas ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
If anyone has seen how open source works, there is usually a strong core team - like the ZC folks- who provide direction to the project. There are also dozens if not hundreds of enthusiastic folks who are less involved but contribute features, patches, bug fixes, documentation ... Despite the fact that Zope is one of the most attractive open source project around today there is no mass appeal to the project. The ZC folks are now struggling with issues that should be handled by folks less knowledgeable. In my humble opinion if the open source process had been allowed to progress unfettered by corporate greed Zope would even now have a state of maturity that it is not likely to reach even in 10 years of development at the current rate. --- Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi! To be honest i would be happy for Zope 3 not to be backwards compatible. Tidy it up, delete the unless code, dare i say it - refactor. Yes so my products will break, well half a days refactoring myself and i have a tidier more understandable project anyway. YES, we need a new start. Building on what we have now, of course, but doing things better without having to think about all the legacy stuff. When I see long-time Zope users like Tom Schwaller (who is a Linux legend in Germany) move on to something new like Webware for Python, that makes me wonder if Zope is starting to loose some of its momentum. Zope is a great product. And it becomes easier to sell it every day. But it could be so much better and more easy to use with just a little effort. Just to mention a few points: What we really need is A true vision of what Zope 3.0 is going to be Zope 2.x, together with the CMF, was sold bei DC/ZC as a content management product, which it isn't really. It is a good start for building one, but so many things that are mandatory for a CMS are missing in the out-of-the-box installation. Zope is a nearly perfect document storage, except for its server implementations for FTP (and partly also HTTP/Web-DAV) will not be too useful with major system load. Zope + Python are a dream team for web-based applications. I think that a single product can't be good at all these things. But I also think that Zope could emerge into a suite of near-perfect products for web-based internet and extranet solutions. I think Zope should be split up into components as soon as possible: - a database layer that includes alternatives to the ZODB (using products like DBObjects or the new stuff from 7x - a document management frontend to the database layer that can be used to manage all kinds of docs. Together with add-on products like the document library, Zope already does much of this, but it is not optimized for high loads yet, and products like Microsoft's Sharepoint Server are really coming close now. I wonder why people in the open source community seem to ignore what Microsoft is doing. I don't ask you to USE their software, but we should at least try to get inspired by the good ideas they have (or have collected from others who had them first). What we need in that part of Zope is high-performance real-time cataloging and searching, interoperability with FTP, WebDAV, maybe even SAMBA and NFS, automatic document conversion from Word/PDF to HTML etc. - an application development framework. Here, we need some more work done towards a real IDE (for Python and Zope). A lot of work has been done already by people like Riaan (who maintains Boa Constructor). Most of DTML (if not all) should go, and Python as the main programming language for Zope should be in the focus of documentation and training efforts. I spent more than a year with getting good at DMTL, just to find out in the end that ZClasses/DTML are really limiting and that developing in Python is almost as fast and much more effective. We need full integration between ZODB-code and filesystem code for that. We need ways of doing ZClass-like things with real Python code, and we need CVS-compatibility or something better within Zope. XML-RPC/SOAP/Webservices could be a strong part of this. - a real, complete, out-of-the-box CMS, based on the other three components. I know that there are at least a dozen good CMS BASED on Zope, but this seems to me to be a waste of resources. We only need one good system that can be maintained by many people. It needs a high-level plug-in architecture, so that people can contribute modules that can interact with each other. Currently, most Zope products other than the database adapters and user folder implementations are standalone products. Let's take Squishdot as an example. It is cool, yes. But it is not compatible with anything but itself. The CMF was a first try to build a standard Zope CMS, but it still far from being a good solution. It solves problems you don't have and takes away solutions plain Zope can offer,
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
Clark, where is the problem?? Yes ZC ties to make money out of Zope. And I hope they are successful. Don't you know that only those that have can give? If ZC does not make the money to cover their cost how can they give us Zope?? Open source is not only for fun. Also to make money! Robert - Original Message - From: Clark O'Brien [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Andy Dawkins [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 6:47 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev If anyone has seen how open source works, there is usually a strong core team - like the ZC folks- who provide direction to the project. There are also dozens if not hundreds of enthusiastic folks who are less involved but contribute features, patches, bug fixes, documentation ... Despite the fact that Zope is one of the most attractive open source project around today there is no mass appeal to the project. The ZC folks are now struggling with issues that should be handled by folks less knowledgeable. In my humble opinion if the open source process had been allowed to progress unfettered by corporate greed Zope would even now have a state of maturity that it is not likely to reach even in 10 years of development at the current rate. --- Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi! To be honest i would be happy for Zope 3 not to be backwards compatible. Tidy it up, delete the unless code, dare i say it - refactor. Yes so my products will break, well half a days refactoring myself and i have a tidier more understandable project anyway. YES, we need a new start. Building on what we have now, of course, but doing things better without having to think about all the legacy stuff. When I see long-time Zope users like Tom Schwaller (who is a Linux legend in Germany) move on to something new like Webware for Python, that makes me wonder if Zope is starting to loose some of its momentum. Zope is a great product. And it becomes easier to sell it every day. But it could be so much better and more easy to use with just a little effort. Just to mention a few points: What we really need is A true vision of what Zope 3.0 is going to be Zope 2.x, together with the CMF, was sold bei DC/ZC as a content management product, which it isn't really. It is a good start for building one, but so many things that are mandatory for a CMS are missing in the out-of-the-box installation. Zope is a nearly perfect document storage, except for its server implementations for FTP (and partly also HTTP/Web-DAV) will not be too useful with major system load. Zope + Python are a dream team for web-based applications. I think that a single product can't be good at all these things. But I also think that Zope could emerge into a suite of near-perfect products for web-based internet and extranet solutions. I think Zope should be split up into components as soon as possible: - a database layer that includes alternatives to the ZODB (using products like DBObjects or the new stuff from 7x - a document management frontend to the database layer that can be used to manage all kinds of docs. Together with add-on products like the document library, Zope already does much of this, but it is not optimized for high loads yet, and products like Microsoft's Sharepoint Server are really coming close now. I wonder why people in the open source community seem to ignore what Microsoft is doing. I don't ask you to USE their software, but we should at least try to get inspired by the good ideas they have (or have collected from others who had them first). What we need in that part of Zope is high-performance real-time cataloging and searching, interoperability with FTP, WebDAV, maybe even SAMBA and NFS, automatic document conversion from Word/PDF to HTML etc. - an application development framework. Here, we need some more work done towards a real IDE (for Python and Zope). A lot of work has been done already by people like Riaan (who maintains Boa Constructor). Most of DTML (if not all) should go, and Python as the main programming language for Zope should be in the focus of documentation and training efforts. I spent more than a year with getting good at DMTL, just to find out in the end that ZClasses/DTML are really limiting and that developing in Python is almost as fast and much more effective. We need full integration between ZODB-code and filesystem code for that. We need ways of doing ZClass-like things with real Python code, and we need CVS-compatibility or something better within Zope. XML-RPC/SOAP/Webservices could be a strong part of this. - a real, complete, out-of-the-box CMS, based on the other three components. I know that there are at least a dozen good CMS BASED on Zope
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
On Sat, 2001-12-01 at 06:02, Joachim Werner wrote: Hi! This is a totally different business model than the one Zope Corp. is using right now, but it might help refinancing the overhead a good community needs to have ... Would it have to be done by ZC? No, of course not. And there could be more than one of course (though we'd need a Zope Standards Base like the LSB then ;-)) See, that is where I'd see ZC's role in a Zope Distribution world. Theirs could be the standard base, with input from the community of course. Naturally, it would not prevent ZC from offering more-than-standard distributions. Bill ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
Clark O'Brien wrote: In my humble opinion if the open source process had been allowed to progress unfettered by corporate greed Zope would even now have a state of maturity that it is not likely to reach even in 10 years of development at the current rate. Oh go back to your troll hole would ya? Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
From: Andrew Kenneth Milton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Noone from Zope Corp seems to monitor the list to help out. That is not my experience at all. I have received answers from Zope corps several times. But sure, most of the answers you get come from the community members. Thats what a community is all about, and thats the hallmark of a good community. The major irony of this is, that most of the people seeking help on #zope are working with it, or consulting with it, and are supported by me and others for free. We are the ones that deal with the 'general zope public.' We are the defenders of the faith. I'm not sure I understand why this is ironic. I guess I have missed someting in the all-hell-breaking-loose part of things. :-) Zope if free and open source. It is therefore unavoidable that the community has to support itself, becuase Zope corp doesn't make any money from that software. You could say that this is the price that you pay for the free software. :-) Most of the times you will however receive faster and better support from communities than direct from any companys support. So it's a low price to pay. What I do agree on is that Zope corp not always seem to *listen* to the community. It is hard to contribute to Zope, and it feels to me that you have to fight to make Zope Corp to things the right way, even when you in fact already have done the work for them. I don't know why that is, or if it is possible to change that. I suspect they simply have far too much to do... :-) The best community I have seen is for the Clavia Nord Modular synthesizer. Clavia contributes abolsutely NOTHING to that community. They do, however, listen to it, and implement several of the features that are most requested in that community. And that is not an open source project, so the community can't contribute anything else than ideas. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
Lennart Regebro wrote: What I do agree on is that Zope corp not always seem to *listen* to the community. It is hard to contribute to Zope, and it feels to me that you have to fight to make Zope Corp to things the right way, even when you in fact already have done the work for them. I don't know why that is, or if it is possible to change that. I suspect they simply have far too much to do... :-) Does the fishbowl process address this for you? http://dev.zope.org/Fishbowl/Introduction.html -- Steve Alexander Software Engineer Cat-Box limited ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
* Lennart Regebro [EMAIL PROTECTED] [011130 11:24]: From: Andrew Kenneth Milton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Noone from Zope Corp seems to monitor the list to help out. That is not my experience at all. I have received answers from Zope corps several times. But sure, most of the answers you get come from the community members. Thats what a community is all about, and thats the hallmark of a good community. I agree. The best community I have seen is for the Clavia Nord Modular synthesizer. Clavia contributes abolsutely NOTHING to that community. They do, however, listen to it, and implement several of the features that are most requested in that community. And that is not an open source project, so the community can't contribute anything else than ideas. Personally, I think ZC are trying very hard, but are not getting it right. I'm also very sure they are taking this conversation seriously. Brian responded very quickly to the userfolder 'api' issues. They commit a *lot* in terms of software and support (IMO) but little in terms of fostering a community. But then, why should *they* be responsible for this? If we think we're a community, then we should all be responsible for building on it. I think we should have a conversation about what makes a community work, and then come up with some positive suggestions about improving the community *ourselves*. ZC will follow, for sure. There must be members of various OSS communities knocking around here. Python, XML things, Apache Foundation, GNOME. What are peoples' experiences? Which are the best? Why? I'm not sure about the ideal community, but here's some practical ideas to start off with. 1) Just because no-one can ever agree about splitting up the mailing lists, what's to stop somebody setting one up unilaterally? Perhaps the people who care strongly about this should just set up an egroup? I'm sure ZC would link to it from zope.org. Come on somebody, set up a forum at [EMAIL PROTECTED], today, right now, and continue the discussion there. 2) How about the responsiveness of ZC? Granted, it could be much better, but they're *trying*. Let's help them with suggestions. Look at the fishbowl. It's an open process, but doesn't get contributed to that much. What are the problems with it? How can we improve it? I think it should be linked from zope.org more prominently, for a start. I think the wiki format puts people off because they're not familiar with it. How about a familiar-looking discussion board on each proposal, too? 3) Another thing mentioned regularly: the zope.org community site is pretty bad. I think, just as the respository is beginning to open up, so should construction of zope.org. There should be a mailing list, some members of the community should be appointed to some kind of committee, and ZC should always have some representation on it. But it should be led by the people for whom it exists in the first place, IMO. Collectively, we have a vast array of talented designers, programmers, information architects, etc, at our disposal. Will ZC countenance this proposal? If not, should we be working on our own community site? These may be crap ideas, I don't know; but I think we *can* do something about these issues, collectively. We shouldn't just ask ZC to do something about it. Carpe diem and all that. seb ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
Lennart Regebro wrote: Does the fishbowl process address this for you? http://dev.zope.org/Fishbowl/Introduction.html I'm aware of the fishbowl process. Sorry, I wasn't clear with my question. Does the fishbowl process address what you said about having to fight to get things done the right way, even when you've already produced the code, and making up for people's lack of time to do everything? -- Steve Alexander ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
On Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:28:44 +, Steve Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does the fishbowl process address what you said about having to fight to get things done the right way, even when you've already produced the code, and making up for people's lack of time to do everything? In my experience (I have been out of touch since the CVS opening, but is still fairly relevant) the fishbowl has proved a good way of collecting discussion about changes, and a *very* good way of making the community aware of imminent changes. However, awareness is not the same as getting things 'done the right way'. Specifically, I have been disappointed at my (as a community member) ability to influence: 1. The outcome of an internal zope.com fishbowl proposal when I think it is leading the Zope source in a wrong direction. 2. The outcome of my fishbowl proposals that are not aligned with current zope.com project. I thinks thats true of fishbowl projects, and the second of true of smaller collector-hosted issues too. Toby Dickenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
On Friday, November 30, 2001, at 04:18 AM, Lennart Regebro wrote: What I do agree on is that Zope corp not always seem to *listen* to the community. It is hard to contribute to Zope, and it feels to me that you have to fight to make Zope Corp to things the right way, even when you in fact already have done the work for them. I don't know why that is, or if it is possible to change that. I suspect they simply have far too much to do... :-) The right way? Who is the judge of that? What is the right way? To compete more with J2EE? To be more like PHP? To dump ZODB in favor of MySQL? Some people are of the opinion that any of these may be the right way, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they fit with the real direction that Zope Corp wishes to point the architecture in. Supporting a community of thousands and thousands for free is very hard work. Zope Corp is still a small company -- if every developer there could actively participate with the community the way some people prescribe, it might be enough to appease most peoples concerns. But then they're not working on projects that bring in enough money to stay afloat. And if they can't stay afloat, then Zope loses. Granted, being Open Source, Zope could very well continue to be an active project, but losing Zope corp would be a significant stepback as new leaders and directions have to be found from the people in the community - who may very well find that it truely does cost a lot to give software away for free and THEN have to support it for free. It's hard to appreciate just how tough that can be. The best community I have seen is for the Clavia Nord Modular synthesizer. Clavia contributes abolsutely NOTHING to that community. They do, however, listen to it, and implement several of the features that are most requested in that community. And that is not an open source project, so the community can't contribute anything else than ideas. And, everyone in that community has somehow put money in Clavia's coffers. The Micro Modular lists for around $600-$800 USD, right? Economically, it's just easier to support a community that has funded you with cash (although I don't know what Clavia's margins on their hardware is - it's not like software which can be easily reproduced for a fraction of its street cost). Clavia probably realizes that by listening to the community, they'll make those users happier, which will lead to increased word-of-mouth advertising for them and bring more happy buyers into the fold. And that money comes back to Clavia. However, anything I do in Zope now that I've left the company (which I did purely for personal reasons - I loved working there but had been away from family and friends for long enough) probably won't bring them any more money. I can evangelize it all I want, but I'm trying to get clients for my own company because I need to scrape together enough cash to stay on the slopes all winter. I don't sell a Zope based solution and then send a portion of that to Zope Corp for use of their product. I give back when I can in the same way many people do - by releasing new Products for Zope. But I'm also - possibly - working on a commercial application for it. And again - aside from a microscopic potential increase in Zope's market share, does Zope Corp get anything out of that? Do they get any money for answering questions I have on the mailing lists, or responding to Tracker/Collector issues I submit? The economics of being an Open Source company are still not very well understood, and I think ZC are doing better than many similar companies that open source a limited version of their flagship software and then build and sell commercial versions on top of that (one of the funniest postcards I ever got was from Enhydra - A Web Application server for $99? That's the power of Open Source!) Where's the $99 version of Zope? The $499? The $1499? The $25999? Zope Corp hasn't pulled that card out like many other vendors have. There are actually many pieces of Zope that were initially commercial add-ons (or intended to be) that are now all open source. Now, with the understanding that I no longer speak for ZC, I will apologize _a little bit_ for not being an active member of the community. But when deadlines are setting in and you've got customers on the phone, having the email bell go off every three minutes with seven new messages from four different lists is not always a welcome distraction. Yeesh! - I've been in for two and a half hours here today already and have 84 messages still to scan through, and my task list hasn't even been touched yet. And I don't even have any real obligation to go through those messages. And while I recognize the complaints and peoples rights to say them, don't be to hasty to judge against Zope Corp. The people there are working very hard and have to deal with many of the same
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
Andrew Kenneth Milton writes: It is the people who are in the trenches who are increasingly being disaffected by Zope Corp, it seems as if you're not subscribed to zope-dev, you have no voice, and for most people zope-dev is not an appropriate forum for them to be subscribed to. As some of you know, I was hounded off of the zope@ mailing list for suggesting that there be some other mailing list for more technical discussion. People were very upset, because, they already have a hard time getting any support. I did see many posts to the contrary... Noone from Zope Corp seems to monitor the list to help out. That is definitely wrong. I see lots of posts from ZC people in almost all Zope related mailing lists (I read): zope zope-cmfzpt zope-db ChrisMTres, Jens EvanMatt Andreas (Evan) (Brian) Seems, ZC cares about the mailing lists. The zope list was manned by people like me volunteering expertise and time to help more of the little people. Sure, they will be happy and thank you! Keep on! (I will help you) Dieter ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
Hi! To be honest i would be happy for Zope 3 not to be backwards compatible. Tidy it up, delete the unless code, dare i say it - refactor. Yes so my products will break, well half a days refactoring myself and i have a tidier more understandable project anyway. YES, we need a new start. Building on what we have now, of course, but doing things better without having to think about all the legacy stuff. When I see long-time Zope users like Tom Schwaller (who is a Linux legend in Germany) move on to something new like Webware for Python, that makes me wonder if Zope is starting to loose some of its momentum. Zope is a great product. And it becomes easier to sell it every day. But it could be so much better and more easy to use with just a little effort. Just to mention a few points: What we really need is A true vision of what Zope 3.0 is going to be Zope 2.x, together with the CMF, was sold bei DC/ZC as a content management product, which it isn't really. It is a good start for building one, but so many things that are mandatory for a CMS are missing in the out-of-the-box installation. Zope is a nearly perfect document storage, except for its server implementations for FTP (and partly also HTTP/Web-DAV) will not be too useful with major system load. Zope + Python are a dream team for web-based applications. I think that a single product can't be good at all these things. But I also think that Zope could emerge into a suite of near-perfect products for web-based internet and extranet solutions. I think Zope should be split up into components as soon as possible: - a database layer that includes alternatives to the ZODB (using products like DBObjects or the new stuff from 7x - a document management frontend to the database layer that can be used to manage all kinds of docs. Together with add-on products like the document library, Zope already does much of this, but it is not optimized for high loads yet, and products like Microsoft's Sharepoint Server are really coming close now. I wonder why people in the open source community seem to ignore what Microsoft is doing. I don't ask you to USE their software, but we should at least try to get inspired by the good ideas they have (or have collected from others who had them first). What we need in that part of Zope is high-performance real-time cataloging and searching, interoperability with FTP, WebDAV, maybe even SAMBA and NFS, automatic document conversion from Word/PDF to HTML etc. - an application development framework. Here, we need some more work done towards a real IDE (for Python and Zope). A lot of work has been done already by people like Riaan (who maintains Boa Constructor). Most of DTML (if not all) should go, and Python as the main programming language for Zope should be in the focus of documentation and training efforts. I spent more than a year with getting good at DMTL, just to find out in the end that ZClasses/DTML are really limiting and that developing in Python is almost as fast and much more effective. We need full integration between ZODB-code and filesystem code for that. We need ways of doing ZClass-like things with real Python code, and we need CVS-compatibility or something better within Zope. XML-RPC/SOAP/Webservices could be a strong part of this. - a real, complete, out-of-the-box CMS, based on the other three components. I know that there are at least a dozen good CMS BASED on Zope, but this seems to me to be a waste of resources. We only need one good system that can be maintained by many people. It needs a high-level plug-in architecture, so that people can contribute modules that can interact with each other. Currently, most Zope products other than the database adapters and user folder implementations are standalone products. Let's take Squishdot as an example. It is cool, yes. But it is not compatible with anything but itself. The CMF was a first try to build a standard Zope CMS, but it still far from being a good solution. It solves problems you don't have and takes away solutions plain Zope can offer, like being able to build hierarchically structured sites (as it has a flat member paradigm). What we need for the CMS level is: - easy-to-use (partly WYSIWYG) editor tools - a chroming/skinning mechanism that is used by all components - workflow - ... - on top of all that, I see really sophisticated systems like (real) portal toolkits or groupware software. - one of the remaining questions is: Does Zope need a stronger XML story? I think that Zope Corporation doesn't want to maintain all of that, and that they actually wouldn't be able to do so. So it is really important to make sure what will be part of Zope 3 and what not. And who is going to be in charge of what. Wow, this has gotten rather lengthy (and still incomplete). But maybe I'll get some feedback on this ... Joachim ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
Noone from Zope Corp seems to monitor the list to help out. That is not my experience at all. I have received answers from Zope corps several times. But sure, most of the answers you get come from the community members. Thats what a community is all about, and thats the hallmark of a good community. I fully agree that Zope Corp and the Zopers there are really trying to contribute to the lists and they are definitely listening. But still Andrew's main points are right. I talked to people who are in the inner circle of the CVS write-enabled. And even those people still feel that they are not really getting all the info they need. The session management framework (formerly known as CoreSessionTracking, now it is in the core and just called Session) is another example, if my first look was right. The API seems to have changed a lot between the last CST and the final Session release that is part of 2.5 beta. O.k., there still seems to be some backwards-compatibility, but why can't those projects be more public? The tools are there (like CVS) ... Joachim ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
I seem to have to comment on most of the mails in this thread. Sorry for that ;-) Personally, I think ZC are trying very hard, but are not getting it right. I'm also very sure they are taking this conversation seriously. Brian responded very quickly to the userfolder 'api' issues. They commit a *lot* in terms of software and support (IMO) but little in terms of fostering a community. But then, why should *they* be responsible for this? My experience from EuroZope is that we would desperately need some paid community workers. The Zope community seems to be much more professional than others, which means that there are not enough people with too much free time to run the infrastructure. Most of us contribute a lot, but can't afford doing even more without neglecting the day-to-day business. 1) Just because no-one can ever agree about splitting up the mailing lists, what's to stop somebody setting one up unilaterally? Perhaps the people who care strongly about this should just set up an egroup? I'm sure ZC would link to it from zope.org. Come on somebody, set up a forum at [EMAIL PROTECTED], today, right now, and continue the discussion there. I personally don't think we need more mailing lists. However, we might need better FAQs/howtos to get the noise from the lists. I think the wiki format puts people off because they're not familiar with it. How about a familiar-looking discussion board on each proposal, too? Yes, that's a good point. 3) Another thing mentioned regularly: the zope.org community site is pretty bad. I think, just as the respository is beginning to open up, so should construction of zope.org. There should be a mailing list, some members of the community should be appointed to some kind of committee, and ZC should always have some representation on it. But it should be led by the people for whom it exists in the first place, IMO. Collectively, we have a vast array of talented designers, programmers, information architects, etc, at our disposal. Will ZC countenance this proposal? If not, should we be working on our own community site? We have discussed about that at most of the EuroZope meetings. But still nobody has had enough resources to start. We'd need a Zope-based site that has all the functionality of sourceforge and even more. Zope CAN do that, but zope.org is not a good example indeed. I'd like to be ably to comment on a product right in place, post bug fixes, how-tos and extensions right on the product's site, get reliable information whether a product works with a certain version of Zope etc. Joachim ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
Hi Paul! I don't want to replace one group of people with a busy agenda with another group of people with a busy agenda. We need a small group of people that are willing to make a long-term commitment to responsibility. These people can then tap into others that can commit on an as-needed basis. That's the crucial part. Either we find some people who can really take responsibility (i.e. are NOT busy enough yet) or we will probably have to BUY time. I don't see an alternative. The money for that should probably not come from the people who want to make money with Zope for a living, but rather from our clients. I have no idea yet how we could accomplish that, but I feel that it is possible. Joachim BTW: I could have posted the same to the EuroZope list, as we have exactly the same problem there ... ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
Where's the $99 version of Zope? The $499? The $1499? The $25999? Zope Corp hasn't pulled that card out like many other vendors have. There are actually many pieces of Zope that were initially commercial add-ons (or intended to be) that are now all open source. I sometimes have the feeling that we might NEED a $xx(x) version of Zope -- a ready-to-go, preconfigured Zope distro with a decent manual. Not for us, the community, but for the average user. O.k., we could do it for free, but would there be a Red Hat or SuSE Linux distro if it was totally for free? It even CAN be downloaded for free, and still people are willing to pay for it. And the money is needed. Without the support from the major Linux distributors, projects like XFree would probably be in big trouble ... This is a totally different business model than the one Zope Corp. is using right now, but it might help refinancing the overhead a good community needs to have ... Just my 2 (euro)cents ... Joachim ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
The session management framework (formerly known as CoreSessionTracking, now it is in the core and just called Session) is another example, if my first look was right. The API seems to have changed a lot between the last CST and the final Session release that is part of 2.5 beta. O.k., there still seems to be some backwards-compatibility, but why can't those projects be more public? The tools are there (like CVS) ... Mea culpa. One of the problems is that that nothing gets by the BDFL here (Jim), and he required some of the changes. But I admit that I should have kept the fishbowl project more updated. I did update it (lamely), but not well enough. -= C ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
Chris was just drinking a beer with us at Orbit's twenty minutes ago, and now he's responding to email on a Friday night. That's just sick. I don't think your boss fully appreciates you, number 27. :^) --Paul Chris McDonough wrote: The session management framework (formerly known as CoreSessionTracking, now it is in the core and just called Session) is another example, if my first look was right. The API seems to have changed a lot between the last CST and the final Session release that is part of 2.5 beta. O.k., there still seems to be some backwards-compatibility, but why can't those projects be more public? The tools are there (like CVS) ... Mea culpa. One of the problems is that that nothing gets by the BDFL here (Jim), and he required some of the changes. But I admit that I should have kept the fishbowl project more updated. I did update it (lamely), but not well enough. -= C ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
He's also on #zope, chatting and supporting :) On Saturday 01 December 2001 02:02, Paul Everitt wrote: Chris was just drinking a beer with us at Orbit's twenty minutes ago, and now he's responding to email on a Friday night. That's just sick. I don't think your boss fully appreciates you, number 27. :^) --Paul Chris McDonough wrote: The session management framework (formerly known as CoreSessionTracking, now it is in the core and just called Session) is another example, if my first look was right. The API seems to have changed a lot between the last CST and the final Session release that is part of 2.5 beta. O.k., there still seems to be some backwards-compatibility, but why can't those projects be more public? The tools are there (like CVS) ... Mea culpa. One of the problems is that that nothing gets by the BDFL here (Jim), and he required some of the changes. But I admit that I should have kept the fishbowl project more updated. I did update it (lamely), but not well enough. -= C ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
... This is a totally different business model than the one Zope Corp. is using right now, but it might help refinancing the overhead a good community needs to have ... Would it have to be done by ZC? ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
