Re: [Zope-dev] The future of Zope with XML
Hello, Thanks for getting this document going. It's good to see where XML is going in Zope. I do have a question, though. For me, the main value in XML has been in its usefulness as a flexible interchange format. Right now, I can store data as objects (either straight Python or ZClasses) in Zope and transform those into XML if I need to share it with the outside world (eg RSS). Similarly, though I haven't done this, I believe I can take XML from the outside world, parse it and store it in objects in the database. Are there advantages to storing the data in Zope as XML vs. storing my data as objects? Thanks, Kevin - Original Message - From: Glenn Gasmen To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 11:05 PM Subject: [Zope-dev] The future of Zope with XML http://www.zope.org/Wikis/zope-xml/Unified%20Vision ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] The future of Zope with XML( what does ZDOM do for us? )
Hi Kevin, What FourThought/DC are currently doing with Zope will allow for fast transformations to memory-resident structured data( ZDOM or whatever ) to exportable XML documents( which are simply strings of characters ). This introduces( to the Zope world ) cutting edge metaphors in web-application design. All data to be served to a client is some form of XML: including HTML ( a better term: structured data ). The internal structure, or representation( or "deep structure" if you are into Chomsky ), is the data/knowledge as the web site managers see it- and most likely the most accurate and flexible when dealing with the particular information-domain( this is what theyre paid for :) ). Each user has custom needs- and wants to see this information the way they( or the applications working on thier behalf ) are accustomed to. So, architectually speaking, we need a way to easily and quickly construct XML documents from some meta-type( our internal structure ). This is what ZDOM is accomplishing for us. Parsing is a expensive endeavor. It is not practical to parse character streams every time we want to get at our data. So the solution is to represent the data as something more computationally digestible. Again : this is what ZDOM is accomplishing for us. Does this answer your question? have a good weekend, Josh Zeidner -"zippa-dee-doo-da" , uncle remus Hello, Thanks for getting this document going. It's good to see where XML is going in Zope. I do have a question, though. For me, the main value in XML has been in its usefulness as a flexible interchange format. Right now, I can store data as objects (either straight Python or ZClasses) in Zope and transform those into XML if I need to share it with the outside world (eg RSS). Similarly, though I haven't done this, I believe I can take XML from the outside world, parse it and store it in objects in the database. Are there advantages to storing the data in Zope as XML vs. storing my data as objects? Thanks, Kevin - Original Message - From: Glenn Gasmen To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 11:05 PM Subject: [Zope-dev] The future of Zope with XML http://www.zope.org/Wikis/zope-xml/Unified%20Vision ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] The future of Zope with XML( what does ZDOM do for us? )
Hi, Josh Thanks for the insight! I also just noticed that there is a whole lot of good information already up there in the Wiki. This does look like great stuff. I see how it complements Zope's current data storage capabilities. It provides good ways to move XML data in and out of the ZODB via XSLT and to store and manipulate XML data efficiently using XML Documents. These are excellent capabilities indeed. Have a great weekend! Kevin - Original Message - From: "Josh Zeidner" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 02, 2000 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] The future of Zope with XML( what does ZDOM do for us? ) Hi Kevin, What FourThought/DC are currently doing with Zope will allow for fast transformations to memory-resident structured data( ZDOM or whatever ) to exportable XML documents( which are simply strings of characters ). This introduces( to the Zope world ) cutting edge metaphors in web-application design. All data to be served to a client is some form of XML: including HTML ( a better term: structured data ). The internal structure, or representation( or "deep structure" if you are into Chomsky ), is the data/knowledge as the web site managers see it- and most likely the most accurate and flexible when dealing with the particular ormation-domain( this is what theyre paid for :) ). Each user has custom needs- and wants to see this information the way they( or the applications working on thier behalf ) are accustomed to. So, architectually speaking, we need a way to easily and quickly construct XML documents from some meta-type( our internal structure ). This is what ZDOM is accomplishing for us. Parsing is a expensive endeavor. It is not practical to parse character streams every time we want to get at our data. So the solution is to represent the data as something more computationally digestible. Again : this is what ZDOM is accomplishing for us. Does this answer your question? have a good weekend, Josh Zeidner -"zippa-dee-doo-da" , uncle remus Hello, Thanks for getting this document going. It's good to see where XML is going in Zope. I do have a question, though. For me, the main value in XML has been in its usefulness as a flexible interchange format. Right now, I can store data as objects (either straight Python or ZClasses) in Zope and transform those into XML if I need to share it with the outside world (eg RSS). Similarly, though I haven't done this, I believe I can take XML from the outside world, parse it and store it in objects in the database. Are there advantages to storing the data in Zope as XML vs. storing my data as objects? Thanks, Kevin - Original Message - From: Glenn Gasmen To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 11:05 PM Subject: [Zope-dev] The future of Zope with XML http://www.zope.org/Wikis/zope-xml/Unified%20Vision ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] The future of Zope with XML( XSLT revisited )
Hi, It is great stuff! ( similar idea to Apache Cocoon )... now all we need is someone to put in an XSLT( 4XSLT ) processor into the core Zope code- are there any immediate plans for this? note: i realize this has been discussed before :) . -thanks, Josh Z Hi, Josh Thanks for the insight! I also just noticed that there is a whole lot of good information already up there in the Wiki. This does look like great stuff. I see how it complements Zope's current data storage capabilities. It provides good ways to move XML data in and out of the ZODB via XSLT and to store and manipulate XML data efficiently using XML Documents. These are excellent capabilities indeed. Have a great weekend! Kevin - Original Message - From: "Josh Zeidner" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 02, 2000 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] The future of Zope with XML( what does ZDOM do for us? ) Hi Kevin, What FourThought/DC are currently doing with Zope will allow for fast transformations to memory-resident structured data( ZDOM or whatever ) to exportable XML documents( which are simply strings of characters ). This introduces( to the Zope world ) cutting edge metaphors in web-application design. All data to be served to a client is some form of XML: including HTML ( a better term: structured data ). The internal structure, or representation( or "deep structure" if you are into Chomsky ), is the data/knowledge as the web site managers see it- and most likely the most accurate and flexible when dealing with the particular ormation-domain( this is what theyre paid for :) ). Each user has custom needs- and wants to see this information the way they( or the applications working on thier behalf ) are accustomed to. So, architectually speaking, we need a way to easily and quickly construct XML documents from some meta-type( our internal structure ). This is what ZDOM is accomplishing for us. Parsing is a expensive endeavor. It is not practical to parse character streams every time we want to get at our data. So the solution is to represent the data as something more computationally digestible. Again : this is what ZDOM is accomplishing for us. Does this answer your question? have a good weekend, Josh Zeidner -"zippa-dee-doo-da" , uncle remus Hello, Thanks for getting this document going. It's good to see where XML is going in Zope. I do have a question, though. For me, the main value in XML has been in its usefulness as a flexible interchange format. Right now, I can store data as objects (either straight Python or ZClasses) in Zope and transform those into XML if I need to share it with the outside world (eg RSS). Similarly, though I haven't done this, I believe I can take XML from the outside world, parse it and store it in objects in the database. Are there advantages to storing the data in Zope as XML vs. storing my data as objects? Thanks, Kevin - Original Message - From: Glenn Gasmen To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 11:05 PM Subject: [Zope-dev] The future of Zope with XML http://www.zope.org/Wikis/zope-xml/Unified%20Vision ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] The future of Zope with XML
Kevin Dangoor wrote: Thanks for getting this document going. It's good to see where XML is going in Zope. [note that the zope-xml list may be a better list to discuss these things; I've cc-ed to there but we might want to move the thread there completely] I do have a question, though. For me, the main value in XML has been in its usefulness as a flexible interchange format. Right now, I can store data as objects (either straight Python or ZClasses) in Zope and transform those into XML if I need to share it with the outside world (eg RSS). Right, this is definitely an advantage of XML. Similarly, though I haven't done this, I believe I can take XML from the outside world, parse it and store it in objects in the database. Right -- XMLDocument does this. It parses the XML into a DOM-like tree, storing the XML nodes as objects in the database. You still get an XML view on it, but it's actually all objects. Are there advantages to storing the data in Zope as XML vs. storing my data as objects? It can be the same thing. :) You can use XML to seperate content from layout in a clean fashion, by storing document contents in an XML format, and providing a translator of this format into HTML. Pull in the other layout components with ordinary DTML and you have a web page. I've done this with the original XMLDocument version. You can write the translator using DTML, using XMLWidgets. The new XMLDocument will support DTML (and I'll work on XMLWidgets support), and also XSLT which is a standard to transform one XML document into another (and into HTML). If you already decided to use XML for whatever reason, the advantages of the ZODB come into play. Huge XML documents don't need to be loaded into memory all at once. You can also edit smaller parts of an XML document without disrupting the rest, making for faster editing. *and* you can manipulate the XML document using DOM and XSLT. Since there are many XML formats already with new ones being developed all the time, this can potentially be a very powerful use of the ZODB. So, if you are already using XML, Zope can be a source of power. If you're not using XML, you might want to consider using it to store document-style contents so you can seperate it from layout, and so that you can leverage DOM, XPath and XSLT. It may be less useful to use XML to store other kinds of data; that will vary on a case by case basis. Then there are a number of vague possible future payoffs like being able to use various XML standard to query the ZODB, provide unique paths into it, provide pointers and linking facilities, etc. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
