Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-07 Thread Shane Hathaway
On 07/06/2011 10:59 AM, Hanno Schlichting wrote: The ZMI is a highly insecure, completely outdated and user-unfriendly interface. As I read this, I got an idea for a possible way forward. I haven't been reading zope-dev much lately, so forgive me if something like this has been mentioned

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-07 Thread Sylvain Viollon
On Tue, 5 Jul 2011 12:10:35 +0100 Laurence Rowe l...@lrowe.co.uk wrote: Hello, I agree with Jonas that any idea of giving a package named Zope2 a version number that is not 2.x is only going to lead to more confusion. For Zope2 we're used the x in 2.x.y being the major version now

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-07 Thread Sylvain Viollon
On Tue, 5 Jul 2011 12:11:40 +0100 Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Hello, I think it would be very sad if that happened, especially since there evidently demand from other projects. What I think is clear is that to evolve Zope 2, we need to shed some baggage and

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-07 Thread Tres Seaver
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 07/07/2011 03:24 AM, Shane Hathaway wrote: On 07/06/2011 10:59 AM, Hanno Schlichting wrote: The ZMI is a highly insecure, completely outdated and user-unfriendly interface. As I read this, I got an idea for a possible way forward. I haven't

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-06 Thread Laurence Rowe
On 5 July 2011 20:21, Leonardo Rochael Almeida leoroch...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Hanno, On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 11:18, Hanno Schlichting ha...@hannosch.eu wrote: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 11:03 AM, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.com wrote: I would've thought it would also be possible for those

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-06 Thread Martijn Faassen
On 07/05/2011 12:22 PM, Jonas Meurer wrote: Since we don't market Zope2 anymore, I think there's actually much less confusion from this than we'd fear. It's just an internal version number used in some buildout files, not something that has any particular meaning. I don't like either of

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-06 Thread Jens Vagelpohl
On 7/6/11 13:41 , Martijn Faassen wrote: Concerning not marketing Zope 2, heh, Zope and marketing strategies? I thought we were going to call Zope 2, Zope now, so people will obviously be curious about this Zope thing... Never make any assumptions about a coherent Zope marketing strategy! I'll

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-06 Thread Sascha Welter
I'm sorry, I don't really understand the current line of discussion yet. I see a lot of discussion which part is going to be cut out and dropped, or replaced. I haven't yet understood what's the end target for the project. So, are you guys expecting to get Zope into a shape where it will attract

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-06 Thread Laurence Rowe
On 6 July 2011 15:27, Sascha Welter zopel...@betabug.ch wrote: I'm sorry, I don't really understand the current line of discussion yet. I see a lot of discussion which part is going to be cut out and dropped, or replaced. I haven't yet understood what's the end target for the project. So,

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-06 Thread Hanno Schlichting
Hi. On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 9:21 PM, Leonardo Rochael Almeida leoroch...@gmail.com wrote: I guess this is the biggest point of contention. Why does the ZMI have to go? Although both Plone and ERP5 strive to gradually replace ZMI based configuration with native interfaces (native to Plone/ERP5),

[Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-05 Thread Tobias Helfrich
Hi, this is my first posting on the list, so please be kind if i make some mistakes ;-) On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 1:03 AM, Leonardo Rochael Almeida leorochael at gmail.com wrote: I noticed you've been very busy doing clean-up on the Zope2 code base in the last few hours. As someone who

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-05 Thread Hanno Schlichting
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Tobias Helfrich helfr...@know-it.net wrote: OK, so you do think that we might use Zope 2.12 for a quite long time without thinking about anymore updates? Will there be any security updates for Zope 2.12 in the future? You want to use Zope 2.13. 2.12 is at the

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-05 Thread Hanno Schlichting
On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Sylvain Viollon sylv...@infrae.com wrote:  ... and I still do use the VirtualHostMonster  (you can trash all the other things).  I agree that its code might not been the best in the world, but it  works for the moment and does what it says (I would love to see

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-05 Thread Martin Aspeli
On 5 July 2011 09:42, Hanno Schlichting ha...@hannosch.eu wrote: What you are describing is exactly what I meant by old legacy Zope2 applications. You should be able to use this style of development with Zope 2.13. But you won't be able to upgrade to newer versions of Zope 2 anymore and

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-05 Thread Hanno Schlichting
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 11:03 AM, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.com wrote: I would've thought it would also be possible for those who rely on this to maintain the relevant eggs as optional installations against Zope 2.x, no? The ZMI is not a package - we don't have a split into zope and

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-05 Thread Martin Aspeli
On 5 July 2011 10:18, Hanno Schlichting ha...@hannosch.eu wrote: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 11:03 AM, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.com wrote: I would've thought it would also be possible for those who rely on this to maintain the relevant eggs as optional installations against Zope 2.x,

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-05 Thread Hanno Schlichting
On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 12:19 PM, yuppie y.2...@wcm-solutions.de wrote: Long-term maintenance for Zope 2.13 would give these projects/deployments at least a few more years. Yes. I'm willing to cut releases for it for quite a while. I just expect to see active maintenance from the Plone community

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-05 Thread Martin Aspeli
On 5 July 2011 10:31, Hanno Schlichting ha...@hannosch.eu wrote: On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 12:19 PM, yuppie y.2...@wcm-solutions.de wrote: Long-term maintenance for Zope 2.13 would give these projects/deployments at least a few more years. Yes. I'm willing to cut releases for it for quite a

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-05 Thread Hanno Schlichting
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 11:56 AM, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.com wrote: On 5 July 2011 10:31, Hanno Schlichting ha...@hannosch.eu wrote: So we just got ourselves a Zope2 version 3.0. And no, naming it 4.0 or 5.0 or anything else doesn't make it any better at all. So 3.0 is the most

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-05 Thread Jens Vagelpohl
On 7/5/11 11:56 , Martin Aspeli wrote: On 5 July 2011 10:31, Hanno Schlichtingha...@hannosch.eu wrote: So we just got ourselves a Zope2 version 3.0. And no, naming it 4.0 or 5.0 or anything else doesn't make it any better at all. So 3.0 is the most sensible one :) Boy, that's going to be

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-05 Thread Martin Aspeli
On 5 July 2011 11:10, Jens Vagelpohl j...@dataflake.org wrote: On 7/5/11 11:56 , Martin Aspeli wrote: On 5 July 2011 10:31, Hanno Schlichtingha...@hannosch.eu wrote: So we just got ourselves a Zope2 version 3.0. And no, naming it 4.0 or 5.0 or anything else doesn't make it any better at

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-05 Thread Jonas Meurer
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Am 05.07.2011 12:04, schrieb Hanno Schlichting: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 11:56 AM, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.com wrote: On 5 July 2011 10:31, Hanno Schlichting ha...@hannosch.eu wrote: So we just got ourselves a Zope2 version 3.0. And no,

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-05 Thread Tobias Helfrich
Hi Hanno On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Tobias Helfrich helfr...@know-it.net wrote: OK, so you do think that we might use Zope 2.12 for a quite long time without thinking about anymore updates? Will there be any security updates for Zope 2.12 in the future? You want to use

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-05 Thread Jonas Meurer
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Am 05.07.2011 11:30, schrieb Martin Aspeli: On 5 July 2011 10:18, Hanno Schlichting ha...@hannosch.eu mailto:ha...@hannosch.eu wrote: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 11:03 AM, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.com

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-05 Thread Laurence Rowe
On 5 July 2011 11:22, Jonas Meurer jo...@freesources.org wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Am 05.07.2011 12:04, schrieb Hanno Schlichting: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 11:56 AM, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.com wrote: On 5 July 2011 10:31, Hanno Schlichting

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-05 Thread Martin Aspeli
Hi, On 5 July 2011 11:26, Tobias Helfrich helfr...@know-it.net wrote: Hi Hanno On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Tobias Helfrich helfr...@know-it.net wrote: OK, so you do think that we might use Zope 2.12 for a quite long time without thinking about anymore updates? Will there be

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-05 Thread Hanno Schlichting
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 12:10 PM, Jens Vagelpohl j...@dataflake.org wrote: On 7/5/11 11:56 , Martin Aspeli wrote: On 5 July 2011 10:31, Hanno Schlichtingha...@hannosch.eu  wrote: I'd actually favour calling it Zope2 4.0 just to avoid any mix-up with the defunct Zope 3, although I don't think

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-05 Thread Jens Vagelpohl
On 7/5/11 14:41 , Hanno Schlichting wrote: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 12:10 PM, Jens Vagelpohlj...@dataflake.org wrote: On 7/5/11 11:56 , Martin Aspeli wrote: On 5 July 2011 10:31, Hanno Schlichtingha...@hannosch.euwrote: I'd actually favour calling it Zope2 4.0 just to avoid any mix-up with

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-05 Thread Charlie Clark
Am 05.07.2011, 14:44 Uhr, schrieb Jens Vagelpohl j...@dataflake.org: zopefour as a domain isn't very helpful. It would add yet another top-level name to the existing list (Zope 2, Zope 3). In the best of all possible worlds the package now known as Zope2 would simply be Zope, and its website

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-05 Thread Hanno Schlichting
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 2:44 PM, Jens Vagelpohl j...@dataflake.org wrote: zopefour as a domain isn't very helpful. It would add yet another top-level name to the existing list (Zope 2, Zope 3). That was an April fools joke I was referring to. I didn't mean to suggest to actually use that in any

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-05 Thread Martijn Pieters
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 14:41, Hanno Schlichting ha...@hannosch.eu wrote: Ok, seems 4.0 is the more popular choice. I don't agree. Let's go with Fibonacci and call the next release Zope 8, as the logical extension of the series 1, 2, 3, and 5! :-P -- Martijn Pieters

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-05 Thread Andreas Jung
Martijn Pieters wrote: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 14:41, Hanno Schlichtingha...@hannosch.eu wrote: Ok, seems 4.0 is the more popular choice. I don't agree. Let's go with Fibonacci and call the next release Zope 8, as the logical extension of the series 1, 2, 3, and 5! How about ZopeNG?

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-05 Thread Christopher Lozinski
On 7/5/11 3:22 AM, zope-dev-requ...@zope.org wrote: Hanno writes: Someone might try, but I think it's not a wise decision to spent any resources that way. I am trying. I am trying to create a Zope 2 like TTW development environment on top of BlueBream. I have a small email list of people

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-05 Thread Leonardo Rochael Almeida
Hi Hanno, On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 11:18, Hanno Schlichting ha...@hannosch.eu wrote: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 11:03 AM, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.com wrote: I would've thought it would also be possible for those who rely on this to maintain the relevant eggs as optional installations

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-04 Thread Sylvain Viollon
On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 01:09:17 -0400 Chris McDonough chr...@plope.com wrote: On Sun, 2011-07-03 at 03:41 +0200, Hanno Schlichting wrote: Hello, - Continue to remove functionality tailored for TTW development, like SiteRoot, AccessRules, HelpSys and step-by-step most of the ZMI -

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-04 Thread Marius Gedminas
On Sun, Jul 03, 2011 at 06:10:48PM +0200, Wichert Akkerman wrote: On 2011-7-3 17:48, Martin Aspeli wrote: FWIW, we have a high-performance, high-load application in production on Plone 4 with collective.beaker relying heavily on sessions, and I'm not aware of any problems with it. We use

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-04 Thread yuppie
Hi! Hanno Schlichting wrote: I think moving to Zope 2.12 and 2.13 does have some value for Nexedi or other large existing codebases, as you get support for current versions of the ZODB, Zope Toolkit packages and support for Python 2.7 with Zope 2.13. Since Python 2.7 is a long-term

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-04 Thread Leonardo Rochael Almeida
Hi Hanno, From the point of view of the ERP5 codebase, this direction for Zope2 should be mostly ok, save for a few comments below: On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 03:41, Hanno Schlichting ha...@hannosch.eu wrote: On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 1:03 AM, Leonardo Rochael Almeida leoroch...@gmail.com wrote:

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-04 Thread Martin Aspeli
Something of a meta-comment on this thread: It sounds like people are broadly in agreement on the direction, but not communicating enough about what's actually going on. I think it would be useful to keep some kind of roadmap wiki on zope.org, or at least post to the list periodically saying,

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-04 Thread Laurence Rowe
On 4 July 2011 13:04, Leonardo Rochael Almeida leoroch...@gmail.com wrote: On the other hand, if we could get the ZTK version of this working (the one that used /++vh-host and /++vh-root url segments) I think it should be ok, and we could get rid of VHM completely. The BlueBream URL syntax is

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-04 Thread Wichert Akkerman
On 2011-7-4 11:59, Marius Gedminas wrote: On Sun, Jul 03, 2011 at 06:10:48PM +0200, Wichert Akkerman wrote: On 2011-7-3 17:48, Martin Aspeli wrote: FWIW, we have a high-performance, high-load application in production on Plone 4 with collective.beaker relying heavily on sessions, and I'm not

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-03 Thread Hanno Schlichting
On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 7:09 AM, Chris McDonough chr...@plope.com wrote: Zope still needs to the virtual host monster (or something like it) even with the WSGI publisher; there's nothing equivalent in the WSGI world (unless you could repoze.vhm, which is essentially just the virtual host

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-03 Thread Martin Aspeli
On 3 July 2011 16:44, Hanno Schlichting ha...@hannosch.eu wrote: On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 7:09 AM, Chris McDonough chr...@plope.com wrote: Zope still needs to the virtual host monster (or something like it) even with the WSGI publisher; there's nothing equivalent in the WSGI world (unless

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-03 Thread Wichert Akkerman
On 2011-7-3 17:48, Martin Aspeli wrote: FWIW, we have a high-performance, high-load application in production on Plone 4 with collective.beaker relying heavily on sessions, and I'm not aware of any problems with it. We use the memcached backend across two physical servers and a large number of

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-03 Thread Chris McDonough
On Sun, 2011-07-03 at 17:44 +0200, Hanno Schlichting wrote: I don't have any skin in this game, but FTR, Mike Bayer isn't feeling all that confident about Beaker's sessioning component (or so he has told me). Beaker was originally made as a caching component, and had sessioning jammed

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-02 Thread Hanno Schlichting
On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 1:03 AM, Leonardo Rochael Almeida leoroch...@gmail.com wrote: I noticed you've been very busy doing clean-up on the Zope2 code base in the last few hours. As someone who has recently spent a lot of time porting forward a large and mission-critical code base, ERP5, from

Re: [Zope-dev] direction

2011-07-02 Thread Chris McDonough
On Sun, 2011-07-03 at 03:41 +0200, Hanno Schlichting wrote: - Continue to remove functionality tailored for TTW development, like SiteRoot, AccessRules, HelpSys and step-by-step most of the ZMI - Document and use the WSGI publisher and remove obsoleted functionality like the virtual host