Re: [Zope-dev] Dataskin Zclass + Folder subclassing problem

2001-11-30 Thread Steve Spicklemire
Hi Jean, You might get more feedback from the ZPatterns list on something like this. My gut reaction is that subclassing in python 2.1/1.5 traverses the classes to find methods in a way that makes the *order* of classes very important. IIUC Python 2.2 has a much more sophisticated

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Lennart Regebro
From: Andrew Kenneth Milton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Noone from Zope Corp seems to monitor the list to help out. That is not my experience at all. I have received answers from Zope corps several times. But sure, most of the answers you get come from the community members. Thats what a community is all

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Steve Alexander
Lennart Regebro wrote: What I do agree on is that Zope corp not always seem to *listen* to the community. It is hard to contribute to Zope, and it feels to me that you have to fight to make Zope Corp to things the right way, even when you in fact already have done the work for them. I

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread seb bacon
* Lennart Regebro [EMAIL PROTECTED] [011130 11:24]: From: Andrew Kenneth Milton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Noone from Zope Corp seems to monitor the list to help out. That is not my experience at all. I have received answers from Zope corps several times. But sure, most of the answers you get come

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Steve Alexander
Lennart Regebro wrote: Does the fishbowl process address this for you? http://dev.zope.org/Fishbowl/Introduction.html I'm aware of the fishbowl process. Sorry, I wasn't clear with my question. Does the fishbowl process address what you said about having to fight to get things done

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Toby Dickenson
On Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:28:44 +, Steve Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does the fishbowl process address what you said about having to fight to get things done the right way, even when you've already produced the code, and making up for people's lack of time to do everything? In my

[Zope-dev] Dying in the Fishbowl.

2001-11-30 Thread Chris Withers
Steve Alexander wrote: Does the fishbowl process address this for you? http://dev.zope.org/Fishbowl/Introduction.html From me, that'll be a resounding no. Every single idea I've had for Zope has died somewhere in the fishbowl, and not because people have turned round and gone no,

[Zope-dev] Fishbowl?

2001-11-30 Thread Chris Withers
Paul Everitt wrote: Moral: there's a difference between correct and right. While we might have good reasons for inattention, it will surely lead to an unsatisfying conclusion. Thus, ZC needs to be smaller part of a larger Zope, IMO, and do this by spending more time helping the community

Re: [Zope-dev] Dying in the Fishbowl.

2001-11-30 Thread Stephan Richter
At 03:01 PM 11/30/2001 +, Chris Withers wrote: Steve Alexander wrote: Does the fishbowl process address this for you? http://dev.zope.org/Fishbowl/Introduction.html From me, that'll be a resounding no. Every single idea I've had for Zope has died somewhere in the fishbowl, and

Re: [Zope-dev] Community doing it for themselves

2001-11-30 Thread Stephan Richter
And they have their own issues, what with needing to make money out of Zope, which means intrinsically that all of us outside of Zope Corp are in competition with them. No that is not true. In Germany for example, noone feels in competition with Zope Corp., since they are not even looking for

SV: [Zope-dev] Fishbowl?

2001-11-30 Thread Magnus Heino
3. We could use another open source tool. Bugzilla springs to mind. Yes, it's not Zope, or even python, but it does work, certainly better than anything we, as a community, have right now or could build in the time it would take to install and set up. Well, I'm not too sure about that.

[Zope-dev] Competition

2001-11-30 Thread Chris Withers
Stephan Richter wrote: And they have their own issues, what with needing to make money out of Zope, which means intrinsically that all of us outside of Zope Corp are in competition with them. No that is not true. In Germany for example, noone feels in competition with Zope Corp., since

Re: SV: [Zope-dev] Fishbowl?

2001-11-30 Thread Chris Withers
Magnus Heino wrote: Well, I'm not too sure about that. Bugzilla is an undocumented, hacked, run-at-one-place-but-dont-try-to-move-it-beast. imho. Just like sourceforge... And the fishbowl isn't? ;-) I gave it a try a while ago, but threw it away. I could say the same of the fishbowl.

[Zope-dev] Re: Fishbowl?

2001-11-30 Thread Paul Everitt
Chris Withers wrote: Paul Everitt wrote: Moral: there's a difference between correct and right. While we might have good reasons for inattention, it will surely lead to an unsatisfying conclusion. Thus, ZC needs to be smaller part of a larger Zope, IMO, and do this by spending more time

[Zope-dev] Re: Fishbowl?

2001-11-30 Thread Lennart Regebro
From: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1. We can build something better. I can list requirements but that's not relevent here. However, this will take serious effort (it's a hard problem...) and as we know from bitter experience, things that need serious effort either don't happen, take far

[Zope-dev] Zope has been Hijacked! Save Zope!

2001-11-30 Thread Clark O'Brien
Thanks Andrew for a heartfelt description of what is happening here. It is clear that unlike the other freeware products like Lenux, JBoss.., Zope has lost all of the advantages of being a freeware product. What I find sad is that the extreme commercialization of Zope is hurting Zope- this

Re: SV: [Zope-dev] Fishbowl?

2001-11-30 Thread Paul Everitt
Casey Duncan wrote: I propose (as I just did on zope-web) that ZC do one more little thing for us. Open the web infrastructure up to a few of us. I would be willing to spend a few nights hashing out a more active fishbowl system if that's what's important. Lets take that first step

Re: [Zope-dev] Zope has been Hijacked! Save Zope!

2001-11-30 Thread Paul Everitt
Chris McDonough wrote: Those who know of these problems can write clean applications but these issues are kept strictly confidential. Isn't this dangerously close to a conspiracy theory? Yes, he's right -- we hid the information on this top-secret thing called the World Wide Web:

Re: [Zope-dev] Zope has been Hijacked! Save Zope!

2001-11-30 Thread seb bacon
Troll! And a funny one at that. (I think.) seb * Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] [011130 16:28]: I can't decide if this is a hoax or not :-S Can anyone comment? Chris Clark O'Brien wrote: Thanks Andrew for a heartfelt description of what is happening here. It is clear

[Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!

2001-11-30 Thread Chris Withers
Paul Everitt wrote: You're going to love the irony on this, but there's a proposal in the fishbowl on this: http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Proposals/FishbowlManageability ...and of course, nobody knows the proposal is there. hehe, read Casey's response, it makes the same comment.

SV: [Zope-dev] Re: Fishbowl?

2001-11-30 Thread Magnus Heino
This isn't a good track record. Brian produced 35 pages worth of almost-flawless docs on web services to go with his code. But no comments. And he's doing this on his own time. So let's remember that this is a two-way street. Well, that checkin was done to the cvs 4 days ago. If you

[Zope-dev] FileStorage patch

2001-11-30 Thread Chris Withers
emf wrote: As I currently run 30-60 storage servers on a machine, I would be very interested in testing out such a patch, if you'd be willing to send it along. It's in CVS, just check out the appropriate branch: Jim Fulton wrote: OK, I made a CVS branch, BTreeFSIndex-branch (made from

Re: [Zope-dev] Zope has been Hijacked! Save Zope!

2001-11-30 Thread Garry Steedman
Clark, sorry to be blunt, but you're talking through your arse! you make some v. wild statements and offer no justification for them: i can only conclude that the application you refer to in fact suffered from the same flawed methodology... if you can be bothered, i would be interested to

Re: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!

2001-11-30 Thread seb bacon
+2 I like the idea of unifying the fishbowl and the collector. And I agree about notification. seb ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists

Re: SV: [Zope-dev] Re: Fishbowl?

2001-11-30 Thread Paul Everitt
Magnus Heino wrote: Well, that checkin was done to the cvs 4 days ago. If you haven't read the one line at dev.zope.org about it being available in the cvs, or if you dont subscribe to the cvs mailinglist, how are you supposed to know that it exists? :-P Actually, he sent an email to

RE: [Zope-dev] Re: Fishbowl?

2001-11-30 Thread Brian Lloyd
It's been mentioning that ZC doesn't pay attention, so proposals go in and nothing happens. Bugzilla won't fix that problem. I'll add that the community doesn't always pay good enough attention. Sure, people will say when will we have versioning or when will we have web services. We

RE: [Zope-dev] Dataskin Zclass + Folder subclassing problem

2001-11-30 Thread Jean Lagarde
Thanks Steve, No doubt that is probably what is happening. Sadly, I need ZClass1 to be a dataskin. I could always copy over the few properties and methods shared by ZClass1 and ZCLass2 to ZCLass2 and inherit only from DataSkin and Folder; not the nicest, but that would work for now. My approach

Re: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!

2001-11-30 Thread seb bacon
Paul Everitt wrote: This isn't a good track record. Brian produced 35 pages worth of almost-flawless docs on web services to go with his code. But no comments. And he's doing this on his own time. So let's remember that this is a two-way street. snip * Chris Withers [EMAIL

Re: [Zope-dev] Dataskin Zclass + Folder subclassing problem

2001-11-30 Thread Steve Alexander
Jean Lagarde wrote: Thanks Steve, No doubt that is probably what is happening. Sadly, I need ZClass1 to be a dataskin. Make both ZClass1 and ZClass2 derive from Dataskin before anything else. It will do no harm that DataSkin is derived from twice in one class. -- Steve Alexander

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Fishbowl?

2001-11-30 Thread Chris Withers
Brian Lloyd wrote: snip fishbowl ain't easy to use spot on ;-) - The fishbowl needs to be integrated with email in order to stay on people's radar. Hallelujah! - There needs to be a way to filter the firehose so that people on all sides can focus on the things they care

SV: SV: [Zope-dev] Re: Fishbowl?

2001-11-30 Thread Magnus Heino
Well, that checkin was done to the cvs 4 days ago. If you haven't read the one line at dev.zope.org about it being available in the cvs, or if you dont subscribe to the cvs mailinglist, how are you supposed to know that it exists? :-P Actually, he sent an email to zope-dev on

Re: SV: [Zope-dev] Re: Fishbowl?

2001-11-30 Thread Paul Everitt
Magnus Heino wrote: This is just a guess, but I suspect that this is a sort of unfortunate cycle developing: people post proposals, get (understandably) dismayed at the response time and end up not spending much time there, either contributing or providing feedback. Well, lets move this

[Zope-dev] Wiki

2001-11-30 Thread Chris Withers
Magnus Heino wrote: Well, lets move this discussion to a wiki and see how it goes... Please god, no... Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Fishbowl?

2001-11-30 Thread Paul Everitt
Brian Lloyd wrote: [snip] When we first opened the fishbowl, it was with the certainty that we wouldn't get it right immediately. That's why we went with the intentially low-tech approach of a pile of Wikis. That first step actually worked pretty well for a while until we hit

Re: [Zope-dev] Zope has been Hijacked! Save Zope!

2001-11-30 Thread Clark O'Brien
Chris, I posted the bug at 11/30/2001 11:17 AM, a copy was also sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am using a different e-mail now because my other e-mail address no longer receives messages from zope-dev. Clark --- Chris McDonough [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I posted a serious

Re: [Zope-dev] Zope has been Hijacked! Save Zope!

2001-11-30 Thread Chris McDonough
I posted the bug at 11/30/2001 11:17 AM... snip That's less than two hours ago. I didn't get the mail nor do I see it on Zope-dev. Is your assertion that I or someone else prevented it from showing up on Zope-dev? Who exactly was it that told you it wasn't a problem, and in what manner did

[Zope-dev] FW: Zope optimistic transactions.

2001-11-30 Thread Clark OBrien
-Original Message- From: Clark OBrien Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 7:14 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: Zope optimistic transactions. Chris, I set up a test harness to exercise zopes optimistic

Re: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!

2001-11-30 Thread A.J. Rossini
CW == Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: CW Now here I really gotta shout loud 'cos I've made this point CW so many times I'm wondering how I can say it so it gets CW through... (Paul, here, have some earplugs ;-) CW Notification, which bugzilla offers, MAKES ALL THE

RE: [Zope-dev] Dataskin Zclass + Folder subclassing problem

2001-11-30 Thread Jean Lagarde
It's Steves to the rescue today! Using the order (DataSkin, Folder, ZClass1) seems to have done the trick! Thanks! I would have thought about subclassing DataSkin again, eventually ;-) I had tried to inherit from (Folder, ZClass1) rather than (ZClass1, Folder), but that order was giving me a

Re: [Zope-dev] FW: Zope optimistic transactions.

2001-11-30 Thread Chris McDonough
There won't be any more discussion about this issue from me. - C - Original Message - From: Clark OBrien [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 12:48 PM Subject: [Zope-dev] FW: Zope optimistic transactions. -Original Message- From:

Re: [Zope-dev] FW: Zope optimistic transactions.

2001-11-30 Thread seb bacon
Dude, it's not a bug. You're *meant* to get a ConflictError exception when writes conflict. That signals the publisher to retry. Search on zope.org for conflict resolution. Regards, seb * Clark O'Brien [EMAIL PROTECTED] [011130 18:05]: That was not the point dude. Your cowardly call for a

Re: [Zope-dev] FW: Zope optimistic transactions.

2001-11-30 Thread seb bacon
He he, Another classic Withers-style measured response ;-) Easy on those flames, dude...Everyone move along now, there's nothing to see here... seb * Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] [011130 18:19]: Clark O'Brien wrote: That was not the point dude. Your cowardly call for a response

Re: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!

2001-11-30 Thread Casey Duncan
Since I get paid to do Zope and I feel extremely fortunate to be in that position, I will say that there are different types of community involvement that I divide my time across: 1) Activism (like this) 2) Help (Like on [EMAIL PROTECTED] or zopelabs or whatever) 3) Working on my own open

Re: [Zope-dev] zope-web community (was (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!)

2001-11-30 Thread Brad Clements
On 30 Nov 2001 at 12:54, Andrew Kuchling wrote: On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 05:57:17PM +, seb bacon wrote: What we need, as Paul suggested about zope-web, is a set of community members who are able and willing to contribute 10 hours per week. I think there are very few such people. I would

Re: [Zope-dev] FW: Zope optimistic transactions.

2001-11-30 Thread Chris Withers
seb bacon wrote: He he, Another classic Withers-style measured response ;-) *vbg* Let him justify his space in my inbox ;-) Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or

[Zope-dev] changing a Fishbowl Proposal's state

2001-11-30 Thread emf
Hi, I want to change the Awaiting Resources state of the SiteAccessUsabilityEnhancements to a real project ... I read all the docs i could find on the process, but I can't see what happens to move it from awaiting to actual... -- ethan mindlace fremen | iMeme - The most full featured Zope

RE: [Zope-dev] changing a Fishbowl Proposal's state

2001-11-30 Thread Brian Lloyd
I want to change the Awaiting Resources state of the SiteAccessUsabilityEnhancements to a real project ... I read all the docs i could find on the process, but I can't see what happens to move it from awaiting to actual... It's in the fishbowl introduction:

RE: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!

2001-11-30 Thread Trevor Toenjes
I am hardly qualified to participate in zope-dev issues, but feel compelled to comment on the tools thread. I find it amusing with the wealth of IT experience involved that the group doesnt just take existing Zope code and polish off an uber-Product to handle everything. Somebody with project

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Jeffrey P Shell
On Friday, November 30, 2001, at 04:18 AM, Lennart Regebro wrote: What I do agree on is that Zope corp not always seem to *listen* to the community. It is hard to contribute to Zope, and it feels to me that you have to fight to make Zope Corp to things the right way, even when you in

[Zope-dev] active listening or parts thereof...

2001-11-30 Thread Matthew T. Kromer
seb bacon wrote: What we need, as Paul suggested about zope-web, is a set of community members who are able and willing to contribute 10 hours per week. I think there are very few such people. I would love to, but I simply can't. The best way of getting such people is to cast the community

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Dieter Maurer
Andrew Kenneth Milton writes: It is the people who are in the trenches who are increasingly being disaffected by Zope Corp, it seems as if you're not subscribed to zope-dev, you have no voice, and for most people zope-dev is not an appropriate forum for them to be subscribed to.

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Joachim Werner
Hi! To be honest i would be happy for Zope 3 not to be backwards compatible. Tidy it up, delete the unless code, dare i say it - refactor. Yes so my products will break, well half a days refactoring myself and i have a tidier more understandable project anyway. YES, we need a new start.

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Joachim Werner
Noone from Zope Corp seems to monitor the list to help out. That is not my experience at all. I have received answers from Zope corps several times. But sure, most of the answers you get come from the community members. Thats what a community is all about, and thats the hallmark of a good

Re: [Zope-dev] Dying in the Fishbowl.

2001-11-30 Thread Joachim Werner
Does the fishbowl process address this for you? http://dev.zope.org/Fishbowl/Introduction.html From me, that'll be a resounding no. Every single idea I've had for Zope has died somewhere in the fishbowl, and not because people have turned round and gone no, that's a crap idea. That

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Joachim Werner
I seem to have to comment on most of the mails in this thread. Sorry for that ;-) Personally, I think ZC are trying very hard, but are not getting it right. I'm also very sure they are taking this conversation seriously. Brian responded very quickly to the userfolder 'api' issues. They

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Joachim Werner
Hi Paul! I don't want to replace one group of people with a busy agenda with another group of people with a busy agenda. We need a small group of people that are willing to make a long-term commitment to responsibility. These people can then tap into others that can commit on an as-needed

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Fishbowl?

2001-11-30 Thread Joachim Werner
IMO, Bugzilla won't fix these kinds of problems. I think the first step is to refine what we have while finding better ways to work together. We definitely need a ZOPE-based approach. What I really don't get is this: We all seem to be building Zope-based systems for communities, public

Re: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!

2001-11-30 Thread Joachim Werner
Notification, which bugzilla offers, MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE!! Email notification is good enough, if I want that to beep my cellphone, I just send it to me genie.co.uk email address... Yet another comment: That translates to We finally need MAILMAN integration into Zope! I mean,

Re: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!

2001-11-30 Thread Joachim Werner
I think there's another problem here: possibly the community isn't large enough yet. There's already been a discussion on zope-coders about how little those with commit priviledges are actually committing, and the main reason is simply that no-one has enough time. This might be a bit

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Joachim Werner
Where's the $99 version of Zope? The $499? The $1499? The $25999? Zope Corp hasn't pulled that card out like many other vendors have. There are actually many pieces of Zope that were initially commercial add-ons (or intended to be) that are now all open source. I sometimes have the

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Fishbowl?

2001-11-30 Thread Joachim Werner
When we first opened the fishbowl, it was with the certainty that we wouldn't get it right immediately. That's why we went with the intentially low-tech approach of a pile of Wikis. That first step actually worked pretty well for a while until we hit critical-Wiki-mass and there were

Re: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!

2001-11-30 Thread Andy McKay
I mean, Zope CAN send mails, but not that many (at least not efficiently). Or how does Bugzilla do the mail stuff? One at a time via sendmail. Bugzilla has lots of very, very useful features. And does have to look like crap. We ended up using Bugzilla, it rocks. http://bugs.activestate.com

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Chris McDonough
The session management framework (formerly known as CoreSessionTracking, now it is in the core and just called Session) is another example, if my first look was right. The API seems to have changed a lot between the last CST and the final Session release that is part of 2.5 beta. O.k., there

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Paul Everitt
Chris was just drinking a beer with us at Orbit's twenty minutes ago, and now he's responding to email on a Friday night. That's just sick. I don't think your boss fully appreciates you, number 27. :^) --Paul Chris McDonough wrote: The session management framework (formerly known as

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Phil Harris
He's also on #zope, chatting and supporting :) On Saturday 01 December 2001 02:02, Paul Everitt wrote: Chris was just drinking a beer with us at Orbit's twenty minutes ago, and now he's responding to email on a Friday night. That's just sick. I don't think your boss fully appreciates you,

Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev

2001-11-30 Thread Bill Anderson
... This is a totally different business model than the one Zope Corp. is using right now, but it might help refinancing the overhead a good community needs to have ... Would it have to be done by ZC? ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED]