Re: [Zope-dev] My thoughts on the development process
Martijn Faassen wrote: a mailing list, are needed at least to get contributors going. I had to ask about releasing ParsedXML several times until I got some kind of 'aye' out of anyone. And it still wasn't clear. I shouldn't have to be that persistent. Well, and now I'm being devils advocate, this is Open Source. Just do it (now where have I heard that before ;-) If you do it wrong, whatever that means, someone will let you know, but you're not breaking any lawas and activity, as you've shown with ParsedXML, is always better than inactivity :-) Anyway, I'm not really complaining about ZC; I have a lot of admiration for what you're doing and the steps you've already taken are not mere baby steps at all from my perspective. +5 It feels like Zope's had a huge shot in the arm in the last few days, so I guess we need to send AKM some beer... ;-) cheers, Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] My thoughts on the development process
Chris Withers wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: a mailing list, are needed at least to get contributors going. I had to ask about releasing ParsedXML several times until I got some kind of 'aye' out of anyone. And it still wasn't clear. I shouldn't have to be that persistent. Well, and now I'm being devils advocate, this is Open Source. Just do it (now where have I heard that before ;-) That doesn't follow these guidelines: http://dev.zope.org/Fishbowl/Introduction.html with unclear ideas on how you actually get moved from Inception to Eleboration to Construction. I need to post to zope-dev and then wait for Inception-Elaboration to happen, and the 'maintainer of the software product in question' (who do I whine to if I don't know who this is in the first place?) will then just listen and pick up on it and do the editorial and technical review. In practice, I am not sure if any identifiable maintainer steps up, though I do get feedback from ZC people. This is more than just an 'aye', and I need to be persistent about that already.. From Elaboration-Construction I just need if everything is in order, a CVS branch will be created for the project team to start working on. By whom? Do fishbowl proposals commonly make it here? If you do it wrong, whatever that means, someone will let you know, but you're not breaking any lawas and activity, as you've shown with ParsedXML, is always better than inactivity :-) I agree that I should just 'do it', but I'm not following the guidelines if I do it, and though I'm Dutch and toleration of not following the rules is institutional here, I also don't think it's the ideal situation. Either we work out who is maintainer for what and the fishbowl process for the *maintainers* is spelled out (the fishbowl introduction focuses much more on the artifacts to be produced than on the human aspects), or we scrap or completely overhaul the fishbowl process as we do something else anyway. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] My thoughts on the development process
Martijn Faassen wrote: I agree that I should just 'do it', but I'm not following the guidelines if I do it, Then the guidelines are wrong ;-) and though I'm Dutch and toleration of not following the rules is institutional here, I also don't think it's the ideal situation. I think the rules should change then. Either we work out who is maintainer for what and the fishbowl process for the *maintainers* is spelled out (the fishbowl introduction focuses much more on the artifacts to be produced than on the human aspects), or we scrap or completely overhaul the fishbowl process as we do something else anyway. Where can I buy my I'm an An4rCh15T!! badge? ;-) *grinz* Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] My thoughts on the development process
Martijn Faassen wrote: So what am I trying to get at with this mail? One thing is that the process is too heavy-weight right now. The other thing is that the core coders at Zope Corp snip are the only ones that can get around the fishbowl if they so desire. Here! Here! Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] My thoughts on the development process
Chris McDonough wrote: I actually think that with Zope3 in progress, it's a great time to completely and formally hand off bits and pieces of Zope2 ownership to folks within ZC and without. Hang on, surely you mean Zope3 there? What's the point of handing off responsibility for what is essentially dead code already? How would doing that help the progress of the latest-and-greatest Zope? cheers, Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] My thoughts on the development process
No I mean Zope2. That's not in exclusion of handing off bits of Zope3, but Zope2 is still the current stable release and as such isn't dead code. Huge parts of Zope3 are in flux at the moment, and though folks are more than encouraged to contribute, it's not for the faint of heart. Zope2 is familiar and fairly well understood. - Original Message - From: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Chris McDonough [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Martijn Faassen [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 1:06 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] My thoughts on the development process Chris McDonough wrote: I actually think that with Zope3 in progress, it's a great time to completely and formally hand off bits and pieces of Zope2 ownership to folks within ZC and without. Hang on, surely you mean Zope3 there? What's the point of handing off responsibility for what is essentially dead code already? How would doing that help the progress of the latest-and-greatest Zope? cheers, Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] My thoughts on the development process
The other thing is that the core coders at Zope Corp snip are the only ones that can get around the fishbowl if they so desire. Here! Here! Not really. I couldn't, at least. - C ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] My thoughts on the development process
Chris McDonough wrote: The other thing is that the core coders at Zope Corp snip are the only ones that can get around the fishbowl if they so desire. Here! Here! Not really. I couldn't, at least. You guys can use the fishbowl as what is in effect an announcement service. I'm not saying that isn't useful, but nobody else can announce a project in the fishbowl and have a lot of hope it'll end up in the core right now. But if it's okay I'd be glad to use it that way as well. :) Perhaps that's not exactly getting around the fishbowl. I'm not saying the fishbowl is a bad thing, though. I think it's pretty useful. And I'm slowly learning I should just do stuff anyway, though part of that does include discussion and announcements. The core coders don't have enough time to actively coach me so I should just coach myself. :) Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] My thoughts on the development process
There really is a lot more work that goes into the stuff in the fishbowl from the folks at ZC than just an announcement. That said, I agree that a ZC proposal driven by a consulting project will more likely end up in the core than anything else, so I think I understand what you're saying. The problem really isn't that folks at ZC can get around the fishbowl process, it's just that consulting-driven ZC projects currently take priority over just about everything else, and they soak up all available ZC resources. One of the remediations has been to extend CVS commit privileges to folks outside ZC, and we've done that. It's clear we need to do more than that, but it's not clear exactly what needs to be done or how to do it. We know it has something to do with changing the process and spreading responsibility out, but we're still taking baby steps. - Original Message - From: Martijn Faassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Chris McDonough [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 2:44 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] My thoughts on the development process Chris McDonough wrote: The other thing is that the core coders at Zope Corp snip are the only ones that can get around the fishbowl if they so desire. Here! Here! Not really. I couldn't, at least. You guys can use the fishbowl as what is in effect an announcement service. I'm not saying that isn't useful, but nobody else can announce a project in the fishbowl and have a lot of hope it'll end up in the core right now. But if it's okay I'd be glad to use it that way as well. :) Perhaps that's not exactly getting around the fishbowl. I'm not saying the fishbowl is a bad thing, though. I think it's pretty useful. And I'm slowly learning I should just do stuff anyway, though part of that does include discussion and announcements. The core coders don't have enough time to actively coach me so I should just coach myself. :) Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] My thoughts on the development process
Chris McDonough wrote: There really is a lot more work that goes into the stuff in the fishbowl from the folks at ZC than just an announcement Exactly. But in the end, if nobody responds except internally at ZC, and you implement it, the fishbowl stuff is kind of an announcement, right? And others outside of ZC can't do that. I'm not saying that you want this to be the case, but it's what happens in effect. That said, I agree that a ZC proposal driven by a consulting project will more likely end up in the core than anything else, so I think I understand what you're saying. The problem really isn't that folks at ZC can get around the fishbowl process, it's just that consulting-driven ZC projects currently take priority over just about everything else, and they soak up all available ZC resources. And *some* ZC resources, even though just an 'okay go ahead' on a mailing list, are needed at least to get contributors going. I had to ask about releasing ParsedXML several times until I got some kind of 'aye' out of anyone. And it still wasn't clear. I shouldn't have to be that persistent. Of course my ParsedXML contributions are in a large part due to it being necessary for a consulting project -- one of my own. :) One of the remediations has been to extend CVS commit privileges to folks outside ZC, and we've done that. It's clear we need to do more than that, but it's not clear exactly what needs to be done or how to do it. We know it has something to do with changing the process and spreading responsibility out, but we're still taking baby steps. Okay, I'm just playing devil's advocate here pushing the poor baby into the direction I think it should be going. :) Perhaps the contributors should start doing the +1 -1 thing over fishbowl projects, sort of like what Chris Withers initiated over at the Zope3-dev list. Still needs someone at ZC to play benevolent dictator though, though an Apache-style core group with veto style might work as well eventually. Anyway, I'm not really complaining about ZC; I have a lot of admiration for what you're doing and the steps you've already taken are not mere baby steps at all from my perspective. Just offering a couple of my eurocents. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
