[Zope-dev] Re: Let's fix the damned website

2008-04-23 Thread Martin Aspeli

Lennart Regebro wrote:

On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 11:37 AM, Christophe Combelles [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 So let's just build a first nice zope.org with subfolders explaining the
different projects because it's important to have just *something*. At
least.


Sure, that's fine. But that's just one page of explanation, which I
also mentioned in my previous mail.


 If we take the ZODB as an example, I have started writing a small
introductory text in the /projects/zodb page (and an image). The goal of
this page is not to be the main place for zodb activity but just to
introduce the zodb as a part of the zope project and how it can be used with
zope. This does not prevent from having a zodb.zope.org site and linking to
it... if someone ever begins to build one.


Exactly. Whch is very differnt from the previous idea of creating a
fixed structure for all projects with documentation etc.


That was never the idea.

Each project gets its own space. Having some consistency there makes 
sense, but there's not going to be one Documentation section for all 
documentation and one Downloads section for all downloads. That 
doesn't make any sense.


Martin

--
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want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Let's fix the damned website

2008-04-23 Thread Christian Theune
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 09:58:02PM +0100, Martin Aspeli wrote:
 Lennart Regebro wrote:
 On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 11:37 AM, Christophe Combelles [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  So let's just build a first nice zope.org with subfolders explaining the
 different projects because it's important to have just *something*. At
 least.

 Sure, that's fine. But that's just one page of explanation, which I
 also mentioned in my previous mail.

  If we take the ZODB as an example, I have started writing a small
 introductory text in the /projects/zodb page (and an image). The goal of
 this page is not to be the main place for zodb activity but just to
 introduce the zodb as a part of the zope project and how it can be used with
 zope. This does not prevent from having a zodb.zope.org site and linking to
 it... if someone ever begins to build one.

 Exactly. Whch is very differnt from the previous idea of creating a
 fixed structure for all projects with documentation etc.

 That was never the idea.

 Each project gets its own space. Having some consistency there makes  
 sense, but there's not going to be one Documentation section for all  
 documentation and one Downloads section for all downloads. That  
 doesn't make any sense.

Nevertheless *I* find it nice to have the new zope.org have most of that stuff
figured out already and lets me just go there and put in content for ZODB. And
don't forget that this means that we can easier centrally authorize people to
fix things there. From that perspective unmanaged microsites do contribute
to our own balkanization.

Christian

-- 
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www.gocept.com - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - phone +49 345 122 9889 7 -
fax +49 345 122 9889 1 - zope and plone consulting and development
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[Zope-dev] Re: Let's fix the damned website

2008-04-19 Thread Martin Aspeli

Maerteijn wrote:

I'm thinking about volunteering for the zope2 section, but I already can say
that I'm not an expert on all facets of zope2. However, helping out is the
main concern now so something is better than nothing.


Absolutely. I don't think you need to be an expert to do a good job. In 
fact, I think it's much better if you're not an expert and know how to 
present something for non-experts.



I'm doubting about what to write / have examples for etc., as you can do a
lot of zope3 technology in zope2 already, however there are some zope2 only
things which should be mentioned as well (Plain Products, SimpleItem, tabs
for ZMI, TTW development etc.), or should we really focus on the zope3
technology only?


There is a Zope 3 section, so I suggest we focus on the stuff that's 
unique to Zope 2, but explain where the Zope 3 stuff fits in.



Taking the examples on worldcookery examples' as a base and
pointing out the difference between the platforms is maybe a good idea. Does
someone have a good vision how to structure this or have some concrete
idea's?


That may be useful. I think the key question should be why would I want 
to use Zope 2, and how do I use it?



BTW : I see some people refer to something called the Zope libraries, but
for me it's unclear what is exactly meant by that (except zope3
technology). I think that a clear definition would help.


The phrase is being worked into the zope.org text to try and explain to 
a non-Zope historian the role of the numerous Zope 3 packages that are 
just as useful in Zope 2/CMF/Plone/Python development as they are in a 
Zope 3 only environment.


The fact that Zope 3 is not a successor to Zope 2 and that the two 
intermix significantly is probably the most difficult story we have to 
tell. From a Zope 2 perspective, it also says something about that 
platform being still relevant even as Zope 3 goes into version 3.4 and 
beyond.


The Venn diagram at http://zode01.lovelysystems.com/projects illustrates 
this concept.


Martin

--
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want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Let's fix the damned website

2008-04-08 Thread Wichert Akkerman
Previously Martin Aspeli wrote:
 Chris Withers wrote:
 Martijn Faassen wrote:
 Yeah, I know this is really a me too post, but I think we should err 
 on the side of conventional for our website. We can't go from 
 out-of-date boring to cutting edge hip in one giant leap; it won't be 
 believable. Let's stick with what people know from other sites, and 
 emphasize our serious rock-solid powerful flexibility experience thing. 
 
 + sys.maxint
 
 A few frills here and there are permitted, of course.
 
 Actually, no frills please. They just come back to bite us every damned 
 time. It looks like we're gonna get lumbered with Plone again but can we 
 please please please make sure it's stable, conservative, maintainable 
 release rather than some bleeding edge thing that becomes a total 
 maintenance dead end?
 
 Yes. That's the point. It's vanilla Plone (well, one custom content type 
 for the feature that fronts each section, but it's trivial) with a 
 simple skin, not the FrankePlone that runs the old site. As a case in 
 point, Wichert upgraded it from 3.0 to 3.1rc in about ten minutes.

More like two minutes - the rest of the time was spent setting up
supervisord for the installation.

Also note that the entire deployment (except for the Data.fs of course)
is available on svn.zope.org.

Wichert.

-- 
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http://www.wiggy.net/   It is hard to make things simple.
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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Let's fix the damned website

2008-04-08 Thread Chris Withers

Martin Aspeli wrote:


Yes. That's the point. It's vanilla Plone (well, one custom content type 
for the feature that fronts each section, but it's trivial) with a 
simple skin, not the FrankePlone that runs the old site. As a case in 
point, Wichert upgraded it from 3.0 to 3.1rc in about ten minutes.


Yes, because obviously 3.1rc is a stable, conservative, release...

*sigh*

Chris

--
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   - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Let's fix the damned website

2008-04-08 Thread Wichert Akkerman
Previously Chris Withers wrote:
 Martin Aspeli wrote:
 
 Yes. That's the point. It's vanilla Plone (well, one custom content type 
 for the feature that fronts each section, but it's trivial) with a 
 simple skin, not the FrankePlone that runs the old site. As a case in 
 point, Wichert upgraded it from 3.0 to 3.1rc in about ten minutes.
 
 Yes, because obviously 3.1rc is a stable, conservative, release...

Chris, if you feel you can do better you're welcome to volunteer to help
out. In the meantime I'ld like to have that I have a decent grasp of the
stability of various Plone releases.

Wichert.

-- 
Wichert Akkerman [EMAIL PROTECTED]It is simple to make things.
http://www.wiggy.net/   It is hard to make things simple.
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[Zope-dev] Re: Let's fix the damned website

2008-04-08 Thread Martin Aspeli

Chris Withers wrote:

Martin Aspeli wrote:
Yes. That's the point. It's vanilla Plone (well, one custom content type 
for the feature that fronts each section, but it's trivial) with a 
simple skin, not the FrankePlone that runs the old site. As a case in 
point, Wichert upgraded it from 3.0 to 3.1rc in about ten minutes.


Yes, because obviously 3.1rc is a stable, conservative, release...

*sigh*


The site's not live yet.

I have no interest in a further discussion about technology. We are 
where we are. I'm confident that we've made an appropriate platform 
choice, but that choice is only 10% of this effort. We need to focus on 
content, messages and structure.


Martin

--
Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who
want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book

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[Zope-dev] Re: Let's fix the damned website

2008-04-08 Thread Martijn Faassen

Chris Withers wrote:

Martijn Faassen wrote:

[snip]

A few frills here and there are permitted, of course.


Actually, no frills please. They just come back to bite us every damned 
time. It looks like we're gonna get lumbered with Plone again but can we 
please please please make sure it's stable, conservative, maintainable 
release rather than some bleeding edge thing that becomes a total 
maintenance dead end?


Ah, I didn't mean feature-frills, I meant design-frills. I agree we 
should be cautious about features. The grok.zope.org Plone site works 
quite well so far and takes a conservative approach.


Regards,

Martijn

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Let's fix the damned website

2008-04-07 Thread Jens Vagelpohl


On Apr 7, 2008, at 00:20 , Alexander Limi wrote:
- Try not to be too clever with the Taste/Get and other links.  
People actually scan for links that are similar from other projects,  
and having to interpret/understand them is confusing.


+1


- The list of companies using Zope includes several examples that  
look very out of place (i-Gift?), and even some that went bankrupt 7  
years ago (Storm Linux). Try to narrow it down to either global  
brands that anyone will recognize (Red Hat, NASA, GE), or — where  
this is not possible — go for a market leader in that particular  
area (plone.org for example lists Oxfam — while not necessarily  
known by the average person, everybody in the non-profit space know  
who they are).


I believe the dev team copied what's on the current zope.org, which  
has a list of companies from 1999/2000 which has never been updated.  
It's definitely way out of date.



- The icons for the Key Features of Zope look very out of place.  
Underwear for standards? Donuts for community? Makes no sense to me,  
at least. :)


Yes, that's very true. I didn't want to say anything, I'm just glad  
something is happening.


jens


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[Zope-dev] Re: Let's fix the damned website

2008-04-07 Thread Martijn Faassen

Hi there,

Alexander Limi wrote:
[snip]
- Try not to be too clever with the Taste/Get and other links. 
People actually scan for links that are similar from other projects, and 
having to interpret/understand them is confusing. I would definitely 
switch Taste to Examples, and possibly Get to Download (as a 
bonus, you get a bigger click target ;).


A strong +1 on this sentiment.

[snip other valuable comments]

Yeah, I know this is really a me too post, but I think we should err 
on the side of conventional for our website. We can't go from 
out-of-date boring to cutting edge hip in one giant leap; it won't be 
believable. Let's stick with what people know from other sites, and 
emphasize our serious rock-solid powerful flexibility experience thing. 
A few frills here and there are permitted, of course.


Regards,

Martijn

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Let's fix the damned website

2008-04-07 Thread Chris Withers

Martijn Faassen wrote:
Yeah, I know this is really a me too post, but I think we should err 
on the side of conventional for our website. We can't go from 
out-of-date boring to cutting edge hip in one giant leap; it won't be 
believable. Let's stick with what people know from other sites, and 
emphasize our serious rock-solid powerful flexibility experience thing. 


+ sys.maxint


A few frills here and there are permitted, of course.


Actually, no frills please. They just come back to bite us every damned 
time. It looks like we're gonna get lumbered with Plone again but can we 
please please please make sure it's stable, conservative, maintainable 
release rather than some bleeding edge thing that becomes a total 
maintenance dead end?


cheers,

Chris

--
Simplistix - Content Management, Zope  Python Consulting
   - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
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[Zope-dev] Re: Let's fix the damned website

2008-04-07 Thread Martin Aspeli

Chris Withers wrote:

Martijn Faassen wrote:
Yeah, I know this is really a me too post, but I think we should err 
on the side of conventional for our website. We can't go from 
out-of-date boring to cutting edge hip in one giant leap; it won't be 
believable. Let's stick with what people know from other sites, and 
emphasize our serious rock-solid powerful flexibility experience thing. 


+ sys.maxint


A few frills here and there are permitted, of course.


Actually, no frills please. They just come back to bite us every damned 
time. It looks like we're gonna get lumbered with Plone again but can we 
please please please make sure it's stable, conservative, maintainable 
release rather than some bleeding edge thing that becomes a total 
maintenance dead end?


Yes. That's the point. It's vanilla Plone (well, one custom content type 
for the feature that fronts each section, but it's trivial) with a 
simple skin, not the FrankePlone that runs the old site. As a case in 
point, Wichert upgraded it from 3.0 to 3.1rc in about ten minutes.


Martin

--
Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who
want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book

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[Zope-dev] Re: Let's fix the damned website

2008-04-06 Thread Alexander Limi

On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 08:52:07 -0700, Martin Aspeli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Now we need people to help contribute content, review the content that's  
already there and tie up a few loose ends.


You can see current state of play here: http://zode01.lovelysystems.com.


Awesome! It looks great, and is a fantastic starting point.

Some quick feedback from my initial browsing of the site, do with it what  
you want. ;)


- Try not to be too clever with the Taste/Get and other links. People  
actually scan for links that are similar from other projects, and having  
to interpret/understand them is confusing. I would definitely switch  
Taste to Examples, and possibly Get to Download (as a bonus, you  
get a bigger click target ;).


- The list of companies using Zope includes several examples that look  
very out of place (i-Gift?), and even some that went bankrupt 7 years ago  
(Storm Linux). Try to narrow it down to either global brands that anyone  
will recognize (Red Hat, NASA, GE), or — where this is not possible — go  
for a market leader in that particular area (plone.org for example lists  
Oxfam — while not necessarily known by the average person, everybody in  
the non-profit space know who they are).


- The icons for the Key Features of Zope look very out of place.  
Underwear for standards? Donuts for community? Makes no sense to me, at  
least. :)


- I assume the front page text is still being worked on, but Zope is an  
open source framework for building web applications is repeated 3 times  
on the front page.


Nice work, everyone!

--
Alexander Limi · http://limi.net

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[Zope-dev] Re: Let's fix the damned website

2008-04-06 Thread Martin Aspeli

Alexander Limi wrote:

On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 08:52:07 -0700, Martin Aspeli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Now we need people to help contribute content, review the content that's  
already there and tie up a few loose ends.


You can see current state of play here: http://zode01.lovelysystems.com.


Awesome! It looks great, and is a fantastic starting point.

Some quick feedback from my initial browsing of the site, do with it what  
you want. ;)


- Try not to be too clever with the Taste/Get and other links. People  
actually scan for links that are similar from other projects, and having  
to interpret/understand them is confusing. I would definitely switch  
Taste to Examples, and possibly Get to Download (as a bonus, you  
get a bigger click target ;).


- The list of companies using Zope includes several examples that look  
very out of place (i-Gift?), and even some that went bankrupt 7 years ago  
(Storm Linux). Try to narrow it down to either global brands that anyone  
will recognize (Red Hat, NASA, GE), or — where this is not possible — go  
for a market leader in that particular area (plone.org for example lists  
Oxfam — while not necessarily known by the average person, everybody in  
the non-profit space know who they are).


- The icons for the Key Features of Zope look very out of place.  
Underwear for standards? Donuts for community? Makes no sense to me, at  
least. :)


- I assume the front page text is still being worked on, but Zope is an  
open source framework for building web applications is repeated 3 times  
on the front page.


Thanks Alex!

All the text is indeed very much draft. I really hope we get a few more 
volunteers so that we can get it to be more complete.


Cheers,
Martin

--
Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who
want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book

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[Zope-dev] Re: Let's fix the damned website

2008-04-05 Thread Martin Aspeli

Paul Carduner wrote:


I'm wondering where the Documentation section is?  I'd like to
volunteer for *that* section.  By the way, the design looks pretty
nice.


There's one (called Learn) for each project, i.e. zope 2, zope 3, cmf, 
zodb.


Which one would you like to contribute to?

Martin

--
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want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Let's fix the damned website

2008-04-05 Thread Paul Carduner
On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 10:54 AM, Martin Aspeli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Paul Carduner wrote:


  I'm wondering where the Documentation section is?  I'd like to
  volunteer for *that* section.  By the way, the design looks pretty
  nice.
 

  There's one (called Learn) for each project, i.e. zope 2, zope 3, cmf,
 zodb.

  Which one would you like to contribute to?

I'd like to contribute to the Zope 3 one.  I see the learn tab on
the mockup images, but not on http://zode01.lovelysystems.com/.  I
have a lot of questions about how this might work but I imagine they
will all be answered once I have an account.

-- 
Paul Carduner
http://www.carduner.net
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[Zope-dev] Re: Let's fix the damned website

2008-04-05 Thread Martin Aspeli

Paul Carduner wrote:

On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 10:54 AM, Martin Aspeli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Paul Carduner wrote:



I'm wondering where the Documentation section is?  I'd like to
volunteer for *that* section.  By the way, the design looks pretty
nice.


 There's one (called Learn) for each project, i.e. zope 2, zope 3, cmf,
zodb.

 Which one would you like to contribute to?


I'd like to contribute to the Zope 3 one.  I see the learn tab on
the mockup images, but not on http://zode01.lovelysystems.com/.  I
have a lot of questions about how this might work but I imagine they
will all be answered once I have an account.


There's no content that isn't visible to anonymous on the site.

Basically, we originally thought we would have one documentation/learn 
section for all Zope technologies. However, it seemed to make more sense 
to have a folder for each sub-project (zope 2, zope 3, cmf, zodb) and 
keep documentation there.


What questions do you have?

Martin

--
Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who
want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Let's fix the damned website

2008-04-05 Thread Paul Carduner


On Apr 5, 2008, at 12:11 PM, Martin Aspeli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

There's no content that isn't visible to anonymous on the site.

Basically, we originally thought we would have one  
documentation/learn section for all Zope technologies. However, it  
seemed to make more sense to have a folder for each sub-project  
(zope 2, zope 3, cmf, zodb) and keep documentation there.


What questions do you have?


Ah now I understand and found the Zope 3 section. One question I have  
is how the site might integrate with the apidoc tool. At least with  
Zope 3, a lot of good updated documentation lives in the svn  
repository in the form of Restructured .txt files. All it would take  
to make these documents easier to find and read is to hook them into  
apidoc and make a nicer skin for the apidoc book section with the look  
and feel of the new site. Basically, I want to write documentation  
once (in svn) and have it appear nicely formatted in multiple places:  
pypi, apidoc, zope.org, and wherever else. Will this be possible/is it  
part of the plan?


--
Paul Carduner
http://www.carduner.net
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[Zope-dev] Re: Let's fix the damned website

2008-04-05 Thread Martin Aspeli

Paul Carduner wrote:

On Apr 5, 2008, at 12:11 PM, Martin Aspeli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

There's no content that isn't visible to anonymous on the site.

Basically, we originally thought we would have one  
documentation/learn section for all Zope technologies. However, it  
seemed to make more sense to have a folder for each sub-project  
(zope 2, zope 3, cmf, zodb) and keep documentation there.


What questions do you have?


Ah now I understand and found the Zope 3 section. One question I have  
is how the site might integrate with the apidoc tool. At least with  
Zope 3, a lot of good updated documentation lives in the svn  
repository in the form of Restructured .txt files. All it would take  
to make these documents easier to find and read is to hook them into  
apidoc and make a nicer skin for the apidoc book section with the look  
and feel of the new site. Basically, I want to write documentation  
once (in svn) and have it appear nicely formatted in multiple places:  
pypi, apidoc, zope.org, and wherever else. Will this be possible/is it  
part of the plan?


In the short term, I suggest we publish APIdocs standalone somewhere 
like api.zope.org. I think it should be integrated eventually (and I 
think this could be done quite nicely with a custom content type), but I 
don't want to hold up publishing of the website for the sake of 
technology development.


We would then just link to this documentation as necessary.

Martin

--
Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who
want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Let's fix the damned website

2008-04-05 Thread Kent Tenney
Look at Sphinx for providing brilliant access to ReST doc.
http://sphinx.pocoo.org/

doing no more than adding a
.. module:: modname
directive to a ReST file causes it to be converted to html, latex or pdf
indexed and searchable.

placing
modname
in the
.. toctree::
directive creates the proper links to the module doc

I really think Sphinx can easily add a lot of value to existing Zope doc.

From that starting point, Sphinx offers lots of tools for enhancing
access to, and presentation of, ReStructuredText

It's being used for the official Python doc, no fly-by-night outfit.

Thanks,
Kent

On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 3:10 PM, Paul Carduner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  On Apr 5, 2008, at 12:11 PM, Martin Aspeli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  There's no content that isn't visible to anonymous on the site.
 
  Basically, we originally thought we would have one documentation/learn
 section for all Zope technologies. However, it seemed to make more sense to
 have a folder for each sub-project (zope 2, zope 3, cmf, zodb) and keep
 documentation there.
 
  What questions do you have?
 

  Ah now I understand and found the Zope 3 section. One question I have is
 how the site might integrate with the apidoc tool. At least with Zope 3, a
 lot of good updated documentation lives in the svn repository in the form of
 Restructured .txt files. All it would take to make these documents easier to
 find and read is to hook them into apidoc and make a nicer skin for the
 apidoc book section with the look and feel of the new site. Basically, I
 want to write documentation once (in svn) and have it appear nicely
 formatted in multiple places: pypi, apidoc, zope.org, and wherever else.
 Will this be possible/is it part of the plan?

  --

  Paul Carduner
  http://www.carduner.net
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[Zope-dev] Re: Let's fix the damned website

2008-04-05 Thread Martijn Faassen

Kent Tenney wrote:

Look at Sphinx for providing brilliant access to ReST doc.
http://sphinx.pocoo.org/


I think looking at Sphinx is definitely a worthwhile effort. That said, 
I agree with Martin that we shouldn't let the new website effort be held 
up by (or distracted by) technological fixes. Let's focus on 
introduction texts primarily, at least to get the initial website in the 
air.


If people want to explore how Sphinx can be used to publish more 
technical documentation about Zope 3, I think this would be a very good 
effort, though. Perhaps start with a smaller Zope packages, such as 
zope.component, and see how it goes. The hard part will remain the 
actual writing of the content.


Regards,

Martijn

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[Zope-dev] Re: Let's fix the damned website

2008-04-05 Thread Martin Aspeli

Martijn Faassen wrote:

Kent Tenney wrote:

Look at Sphinx for providing brilliant access to ReST doc.
http://sphinx.pocoo.org/


I think looking at Sphinx is definitely a worthwhile effort. That said, 
I agree with Martin that we shouldn't let the new website effort be held 
up by (or distracted by) technological fixes. Let's focus on 
introduction texts primarily, at least to get the initial website in the 
air.


If people want to explore how Sphinx can be used to publish more 
technical documentation about Zope 3, I think this would be a very good 
effort, though. Perhaps start with a smaller Zope packages, such as 
zope.component, and see how it goes. The hard part will remain the 
actual writing of the content.


Also, the main zope.org site may not be the best UI for browsing and 
searching API documentation. Sun has a separate design for Javadocs on 
its site; Python has a separate layout for its documentation on 
python.org. Having an api.zope.org that's generated using a different 
toolset, which we link to when necessary, is probably better for the end 
user and easier for us to maintain.


Martin

--
Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who
want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book

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