Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-05-07 Thread Alex V. Koval
Hi, On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:04:34 +0200, Maik Jablonski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zope2 isn't maintained very well anymore due to limited ressources(bug fixes, documentation, see mail from Andreas), but Zope3 isn'tproduction ready at all. So if you talk to people making the

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-05-07 Thread Andreas Jung
--On Freitag, 7. Mai 2004 19:26 Uhr +0300 Alex V. Koval [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just need to know if anybody else interested into better look of zope.org site? And how this could be done... Basically by volunteering to help out with the one or the task. See http://www.zope.org/About/ how to

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-28 Thread Dieter Maurer
Paul Winkler wrote at 2004-4-26 17:45 -0400: On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 07:47:39PM +0200, Dieter Maurer wrote: Our minimal tool usage is probably: Actions, Membership, Skins, Types, Workflow. I'm curious... do you use these with sites that are not in any other way based on CMFCore/CMFDefault ?

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-27 Thread Simon Michael
+1 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )

RE: [Zope3-dev] Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-26 Thread Tim Peters
[Max M, tests a zip file of .pyd files in Zope3, on Windows] I finally got around to testing this, and it works *exactly* as I hoped. I downloaded Z3 from CVS, and Tim's zip file. I unpacked the zip file into the Z3 directory, and it started the first time. Yippee! That's what I expected,

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-26 Thread Tres Seaver
Martijn Faassen wrote: Dieter Maurer wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote at 2004-4-24 22:49 +0200: ... In practice right now the picture is 'Use all of the CMF or none of it'. No, not really... We use SkinsTool, ActionsTool and DCWorkflow a lot, MembershipTool sometimes and most other tools not

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-26 Thread Dieter Maurer
Tres Seaver wrote at 2004-4-26 11:46 -0400: Martijn Faassen wrote: Dieter Maurer wrote: ... We use SkinsTool, ActionsTool and DCWorkflow a lot, MembershipTool sometimes and most other tools not at all. Okay, point taken. :) How much do the tools listed interdepend on each other?

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-26 Thread Paul Winkler
On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 07:47:39PM +0200, Dieter Maurer wrote: Our minimal tool usage is probably: Actions, Membership, Skins, Types, Workflow. I'm curious... do you use these with sites that are not in any other way based on CMFCore/CMFDefault ? -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com Look!

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-25 Thread Max M
Joachim Werner wrote: The problem of Zope 2 is - don't kill me for saying that - Plone. Plone and its foundations in CMF have created a large momentum around a terribly horrible code base. Believe me or not, almost everything gets more complicated with CMF/Plone than with plain Zope. Building

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-24 Thread Max M
Dieter Maurer wrote: Lennart Regebro wrote at 2004-4-23 10:57 +0200: But ah well, what is done is done. Too late to change the past now. :-0 There is no need to change the past. You can start using CMFCore profitable in the future :-) I also disliked the cmf concept, until I actually started

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-22 Thread Chris Withers
Stephan Richter wrote: Nobody is willing to contribute. ZC agreed to change zope.org to Plone so more community members can contribute. But noone has stepped up; that's very sad. Sorry, but I think you'll find several people stepped up, and ZC slapped them in the face with a big fat legal

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-22 Thread Max M
Chris Withers wrote: Andre Meyer wrote: With respect to CMS, Plone archetypes are too simplistic for complex data/document types and customisation takes too much effort. totally agree... I have the same experience. They keep refactoring how a single small (and relatively uninterresting)

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-22 Thread Max M
Tim Peters wrote: [Max M] Or perhaps an automated nightly Windows build. [Stephan Richter] We have talked about it many times before, but simply lack the bandwidth. Maybe you could provide this for Cygwin? [Max M] Argh ... that wasn't fair. Ok I will try and find some time to look into it. A

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-22 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Jim Fulton wrote: 2. Especially Andreas expressed his worries about the current release policy in Zope 2 and its future regarding maintainance and support. I have to say that I share some of his skepticism regarding Zope 2. I personally have never fully understood ZC's reasons for the release

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-22 Thread Martijn Faassen
Jim Fulton wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: I'm surprised to read this. Could you be more specific about your concerns? Did you read Andreas Jung's mail? He was pretty specific, but I had to hunt around as in my mailreader his reply had broken the thread. I was responding to

RE: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-22 Thread Tim Peters
[Max M] Well, yeah. I installed cygwin and all the devolpment tools. About 800 Megs. I could have sorted it, but I wouldn't risk missing libraries, tools etc. and harddisk is cheap. Same here (although my old laptop doesn't have enough disk space remaining to download the whole thing).

RE: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-22 Thread Tim Peters
[Tim Peters] ... No way to tell without trying. I don't know whether you're building Zope2 or Zope3, but since this is the zope-dev list I assume the former. Try http://zope.org/Members/tim_one/Zope2-20040422.zip/file_view and let us know what happens! As the comment there says,

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-22 Thread Simon Michael
What a great discussion. I'm not sure I can catch up and make a single coherent reply, so I'll just drop this into the stew right here: I think Zope 3 is firmly on the right track. At the same time let us not forget the ideas around http://www.dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html .

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-22 Thread Simon Michael
Casey Duncan wrote: On a bright note, I think zopewiki.org could change that. It *greatly* lowers the bar on contributing That is exactly the intent. We have needed this since the days of the ZDP. I see no reason why it being or not being on Zope.org is relevant. Its a social thing: Simon

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-22 Thread Dieter Maurer
Jim Fulton wrote at 2004-4-21 11:39 -0400: Andreas Jung wrote: ... I am sure that more are willing to contribute more than at the moment. Great! Where are they? I, for example, would but I am scared away by the required promise to defend ZC against any potential patent claim related to my

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-22 Thread Dieter Maurer
Martijn Faassen wrote at 2004-4-21 19:42 +0200: Stephan Richter wrote: Nobody is willing to contribute. ZC agreed to change zope.org to Plone so more community members can contribute. But noone has stepped up; that's very sad. I believe part of the blockage is because contributors have to

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-21 Thread Andreas Jung
Some remarks from my side as a Zope2 core developer on this issue: The Z2 community and development is currently at a bad point: - very few people are contributing to the Z2 in terms of new code and bug fixes (see the tons of open bugs in the collector) - very few people are willing to

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-21 Thread Max M
Martin Kretschmar wrote: Shortly said, the whole set of stupidities in connection with Zope3. It is a pretty bad state for a project, if it looms for years as the followup project on the horizon but in reality isn't one! It looks like the classical strategic mistake:

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-21 Thread Seb Bacon
Personally, I think Zope3 has a great future, and will pick up a much larger community than Zope2 ever did, because it's better designed and better documented. In general, the people who stand to gain immediately (or pretty soon) from Zope3 are enthusiasts; newcomers; and ZC. However, if the

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-21 Thread Stephan Richter
Hi, the points I snipped I agree with and/or have no new input for. On Wednesday 21 April 2004 05:36, Andreas Jung wrote: The reasons for this situation from my prospective: - Lots of Z2 people are working now on Plone projects. Plone currently attracts more people because the

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-21 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Martin, Maik, Andreas, and others, I see two issues being raised in this thread: 1. Maik disagrees with the design philosophy behind Zope3 (the Component Architecture) and the place Zope3 wants to position itself at in the future. As a Zope developer who has spent the last two years both

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-21 Thread Max M
Stephan Richter wrote: Hi, As stated before, I think that can be changed, if enough interest is shown in the community. But I think the Zope community lacks strong leaders; too many people are only interested in making money with it without realizing that their future depends on the general

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-21 Thread Jim Fulton
Martin Kretschmar wrote: Hello, Maik Jablonski of the german speaking Zope Users Group DZUG issued a pretty bleak outlook for the future of Zope. What are your oppinions? Here comes the translation of his oppoion: Maik, what makes you look full of scepticism for the future of Zope? Shortly

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-21 Thread Jim Fulton
Max M wrote: Martin Kretschmar wrote: Shortly said, the whole set of stupidities in connection with Zope3. It is a pretty bad state for a project, if it looms for years as the followup project on the horizon but in reality isn't one! It looks like the classical strategic mistake:

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-21 Thread Casey Duncan
On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:36:31 +0200 Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some remarks from my side as a Zope2 core developer on this issue: The Z2 community and development is currently at a bad point: - very few people are contributing to the Z2 in terms of new code and bug fixes

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-21 Thread Max M
Stephan Richter wrote: Concerning the release schedule, ZC has little to do with that for Zope 3. In fact, I have been release manager since this summer and I am responsible for the release schedule and packages. However, I decided not to release often, since again we do not have bandwidth to

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-21 Thread Jim Fulton
Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: Martin, Maik, Andreas, and others, I see two issues being raised in this thread: 2. Especially Andreas expressed his worries about the current release policy in Zope 2 and its future regarding maintainance and support. I have to say that I share some of his

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-21 Thread robert rottermann
will not be able to participate easily on the academic Zope3 train. The technic freaks who modell Zope3 are usually not application developers, which have to build and run working applications for real human users. That's both insulting and incorrect. Many of the leaders of the Zope 2

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-21 Thread Stephan Richter
On Wednesday 21 April 2004 10:40, Max M wrote: I normally don't develop in c. So I don't have Visual Studion installed. You can also use cygwin. I have downloaded the milestones and tried them out. But then I read about this and that *geddon, and think well guess I should wait for another

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-21 Thread Terry Hancock
On Wednesday 21 April 2004 09:40 am, Max M wrote: Stephan Richter wrote: However, we are getting the first alpha out by the end of the month. Hopefully, by end of May we will have finished the X3.0 to-do list and will release the beta. At this point the API will freeze and application

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-21 Thread Martijn Faassen
Jim Fulton wrote: I'm surprised to read this. Could you be more specific about your concerns? Did you read Andreas Jung's mail? He was pretty specific, but I had to hunt around as in my mailreader his reply had broken the thread. Regards, Martijn ___

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-21 Thread Max M
robert rottermann wrote: will not be able to participate easily on the academic Zope3 train. The technic freaks who modell Zope3 are usually not application developers, which have to build and run working applications for real human users. That's both insulting and incorrect. Many of the

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-21 Thread Martin Kretschmar
Hello, Jim, we native german speakers tend to be much more direct and phrase dings more bluntly the you americans do. In german I read Maik's statement as a strong opinion but never as an insult. Since I am the one who asked Mike to speak up I would feel bad if it created any bad

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-21 Thread Jim Fulton
Andreas Jung wrote: Some remarks from my side as a Zope2 core developer on this issue: The Z2 community and development is currently at a bad point: - very few people are contributing to the Z2 in terms of new code and bug fixes (see the tons of open bugs in the collector) In the last year,

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-21 Thread Maik Jablonski
Martin Kretschmar wrote: Maik Jablonski of the german speaking Zope Users Group DZUG issued a pretty bleak outlook for the future of Zope. What are your oppinions? Hi to all, I'm not able to respond to all mails in this thread due to a trashed shoulder (very unlucky cyclocross-crash last

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-21 Thread Jamie Heilman
Casey Duncan wrote: On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:36:31 +0200 Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some remarks from my side as a Zope2 core developer on this issue: The Z2 community and development is currently at a bad point: - very few people are contributing to the Z2 in terms of

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-21 Thread Jim Fulton
robert rottermann wrote: will not be able to participate easily on the academic Zope3 train. The technic freaks who modell Zope3 are usually not application developers, which have to build and run working applications for real human users. That's both insulting and incorrect. Many of the

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-21 Thread Paul Winkler
On Wed, Apr 21, 2004 at 10:41:27AM -0400, Casey Duncan wrote: I agree that bugs deserve more attention. We need to have more bug days. I meant to suggest a date last week, but I got diverted. How would people feel about next Thursday, April 29? +1 -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-21 Thread Martijn Faassen
Casey Duncan wrote: On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:36:31 +0200 Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - very few people are willing to contribute to documentation On a bright note, I think zopewiki.org could change that. It *greatly* lowers the bar on contributing substantive docs for Zope. I would

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

2004-04-21 Thread Jim Fulton
Martijn Faassen wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: I'm surprised to read this. Could you be more specific about your concerns? Did you read Andreas Jung's mail? He was pretty specific, but I had to hunt around as in my mailreader his reply had broken the thread. I was responding to Philipp, not

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-21 Thread Jim Fulton
Jamie Heilman wrote: .. Oh, and about Maik's comment that ZC is the bottleneck in Z2 dev--Jim, I think it was Andreas you might not agree with Maik, but hidden security bugs over a year old aren't something the rest of the community can do anything about. Are you suggesting that we hid them? As

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-21 Thread Jamie Heilman
Jim Fulton wrote: Oh, and about Maik's comment that ZC is the bottleneck in Z2 dev--Jim, I think it was Andreas Ah, you're right, oh well apart from who said it... you might not agree with Maik, but hidden security bugs over a year old aren't something the rest of the community can do

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-21 Thread Andreas Jung
--On Mittwoch, 21. April 2004 10:41 Uhr -0400 Casey Duncan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On a bright note, I think zopewiki.org could change that. It *greatly* lowers the bar on contributing substantive docs for Zope. I would implore all of you (as in you, the reader of this message, yes you!) to go

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-21 Thread Casey Duncan
On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 20:36:29 +0200 Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --On Mittwoch, 21. April 2004 10:41 Uhr -0400 Casey Duncan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On a bright note, I think zopewiki.org could change that. It *greatly* lowers the bar on contributing substantive docs for Zope.

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-21 Thread Lennart Regebro
From: Jim Fulton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Year checkins people 2002 7090 33 2003 5276 34 2004 1103 24 # First 3 1/2 months There is some decline, as one would expect in a mature product. Also, I expect most people is like me. I only fix bugs if they bite me, and I understand them OR

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-21 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Wed, Apr 21, 2004 at 10:41:27AM -0400, Casey Duncan wrote: I agree that bugs deserve more attention. We need to have more bug days. I meant to suggest a date last week, but I got diverted. How would people feel about next Thursday, April 29? Stop feeling and do it! No, I can't join, because

RE: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-21 Thread Tim Peters
[Max M] Or perhaps an automated nightly Windows build. [Stephan Richter] We have talked about it many times before, but simply lack the bandwidth. Maybe you could provide this for Cygwin? [Max M] Argh ... that wasn't fair. Ok I will try and find some time to look into it. A problem is

RE: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

2004-04-21 Thread Sandor Palfy
Maybe this is (still) relevant to building Zope under Cygwin, maybe not: http://www.zope.org/Members/dgeorgieff/howto_zope_cvs_on_cygwin/index_ht ml Python release23-maint and Zope 2.7 just builds fine on cygwin with the usual ./configure, make, make install sequence. Regards, Sandor