Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-20 Thread Christian Theune
Hi, On 04/17/2010 06:34 AM, Martin Aspeli wrote: Hi Lennart co, On 17 April 2010 02:38, Lennart Regebrorege...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 19:53, Jonathan Langej...@mumak.net wrote: As the author of one of those other testrunners, I can tell you that if you do this you'll

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-20 Thread Jim Fulton
On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Christian Theune c...@gocept.com wrote: Minor note: zope.testing *promotes* layers the wrong way and zope.app.testing definitely implements them the wrong way. That's prety vague. Could you say specifically in what ways zope.testing promotes layers the wrong

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-20 Thread Christian Theune
On 04/20/2010 08:44 PM, Jim Fulton wrote: On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Christian Theunec...@gocept.com wrote: Minor note: zope.testing *promotes* layers the wrong way and zope.app.testing definitely implements them the wrong way. That's prety vague. Could you say specifically in what

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-20 Thread Fred Drake
On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Christian Theune c...@gocept.com wrote: zope.testing uses the attribute '__bases__' to store the information what the base layers are. __*__ are supposedly Python internal attributes. Specifically __bases__ is known to be used to store information which base

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-20 Thread Christian Theune
On 04/20/2010 09:04 PM, Fred Drake wrote: On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Christian Theunec...@gocept.com wrote: zope.testing uses the attribute '__bases__' to store the information what the base layers are. __*__ are supposedly Python internal attributes. Specifically __bases__ is known to

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-20 Thread Jim Fulton
On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 3:04 PM, Fred Drake fdr...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Christian Theune c...@gocept.com wrote: zope.testing uses the attribute '__bases__' to store the information what the base layers are. __*__ are supposedly Python internal attributes.

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-20 Thread Christian Theune
On 04/20/2010 09:24 PM, Jim Fulton wrote: On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 3:04 PM, Fred Drakefdr...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Christian Theunec...@gocept.com wrote: zope.testing uses the attribute '__bases__' to store the information what the base layers are. __*__ are

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-20 Thread Fred Drake
On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 3:47 PM, Christian Theune c...@gocept.com wrote: I don't know (or at least can't remember) all of the history of the discussion about that, but I wouldn't argue about following standard protocols. It *is* arguable that __name__ is a standard protocol. It's also not

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-20 Thread Christian Theune
On 04/20/2010 10:05 PM, Fred Drake wrote: On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 3:47 PM, Christian Theunec...@gocept.com wrote: I don't know (or at least can't remember) all of the history of the discussion about that, but I wouldn't argue about following standard protocols. It *is* arguable that __name__

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-20 Thread Fred Drake
On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 4:09 PM, Christian Theune c...@gocept.com wrote: I think the two of us agreeing, right? You I are. I think Jim's not (which is fine, of course). -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr.fdrake at gmail.com Chaos is the score upon which reality is written. --Henry Miller

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-20 Thread Jim Fulton
On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Fred Drake fdr...@gmail.com wrote: ... I think the issue is with that it's not standard protocol the way we use it - at least I can't find our use of __bases__ documented in Python's documentation[1] about __bases__ and thus have a hard time saying we're

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-20 Thread Christian Theune
On 04/20/2010 10:48 PM, Jim Fulton wrote: On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Fred Drakefdr...@gmail.com wrote: ... I think the issue is with that it's not standard protocol the way we use it - at least I can't find our use of __bases__ documented in Python's documentation[1] about __bases__ and

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-20 Thread Martin Aspeli
Hi Christian, On 21 April 2010 02:58, Christian Theune c...@gocept.com wrote: On 04/20/2010 08:44 PM, Jim Fulton wrote: On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Christian Theunec...@gocept.com  wrote: Minor note: zope.testing *promotes* layers the wrong way and zope.app.testing definitely

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-18 Thread Christophe Combelles
Tres Seaver a écrit : So far the main circularity was that everything depended on zope.testing as a testrunner, zc.buildout for making the development environment, and zope.testing obviously depended on zope.interface etc. I solved that by also adding support for setuptools/distributes

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-18 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 10:37, Christophe Combelles cc...@free.fr wrote: Depending on setuptools for tests in another evil thing. We should not assume a *setup* tool to be a testrunner, and we should not depend on the behaviour of setuptools to write tests. I'm not sure what you mean there,

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-18 Thread Wichert Akkerman
On 4/18/10 10:37 , Christophe Combelles wrote: Tres Seaver a écrit : So far the main circularity was that everything depended on zope.testing as a testrunner, zc.buildout for making the development environment, and zope.testing obviously depended on zope.interface etc. I solved that by also

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-18 Thread Christophe Combelles
Lennart Regebro a écrit : On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 10:37, Christophe Combelles cc...@free.fr wrote: Depending on setuptools for tests in another evil thing. We should not assume a *setup* tool to be a testrunner, and we should not depend on the behaviour of setuptools to write tests. I'm

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-18 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 11:35, Christophe Combelles cc...@free.fr wrote: ok, not a lot, there is currently one single particular behaviour, which is adding tests from the result of the additional_tests function in a module. That probably won't hurt. Yeah, setuptools test discovery isn't very

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-18 Thread Tres Seaver
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Christophe Combelles wrote: Tres Seaver a écrit : So far the main circularity was that everything depended on zope.testing as a testrunner, zc.buildout for making the development environment, and zope.testing obviously depended on zope.interface

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-17 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 06:34, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Lennart co, On 17 April 2010 02:38, Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 19:53, Jonathan Lange j...@mumak.net wrote: As the author of one of those other testrunners, I can tell you

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-16 Thread Tres Seaver
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Lennart Regebro wrote: This is to a large part an angry rant. Sorry for that. In my effort to port zope.component to Python 3 I constantly encounter one problem that is very hard to solve: Circular dependencies. It's hard to port module A, when

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-16 Thread Gary Poster
On Apr 16, 2010, at 1:35 PM, Tres Seaver wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Lennart Regebro wrote: ... So, with that in mind I today went on to zc.buildout, trying to port it to Python 3 by ripping out any usage of zope.testing. Also, the standard development mode for

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-16 Thread Jonathan Lange
On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com wrote: ... == Suggestion 1 == I think we should deprecate zope.testing. Completely. There has been some discussion about deprecating it for something else, but I think we should just deprecate it. Just say Don't use

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-16 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 19:53, Jonathan Lange j...@mumak.net wrote: As the author of one of those other testrunners, I can tell you that if you do this you'll find that your number one biggest problem is getting layers to work. Ah, right, layers are in zope.testing too. To actually get

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-16 Thread Tres Seaver
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Lennart Regebro wrote: On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 19:35, Tres Seaver tsea...@palladion.com wrote: == Suggestion 1 == I think we should deprecate zope.testing. Completely. There has been some discussion about deprecating it for something else, but I

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-16 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 20:40, Tres Seaver tsea...@palladion.com wrote: How about we move out the testrunner (including updating zc.recipe.testrunner), clean out any remaining cruft, and release a new major version containing only bits used in real-world tests? Sounds like a good plan to me.

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-16 Thread Fred Drake
On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Tres Seaver tsea...@palladion.com wrote: :mod:`zope.testing.formparser`    Parses rendered HTML forms back to datastructures.  Maybe useful    in tests which consume rendered output.    No ZTK tests use this module. I believe this may be used in tests of some

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-16 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 20:43, Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 20:40, Tres Seaver tsea...@palladion.com wrote: How about we move out the testrunner (including updating zc.recipe.testrunner), clean out any remaining cruft, and release a new major version

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-16 Thread Tres Seaver
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Fred Drake wrote: On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Tres Seaver tsea...@palladion.com wrote: :mod:`zope.testing.formparser` Parses rendered HTML forms back to datastructures. Maybe useful in tests which consume rendered output. No ZTK

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-16 Thread Tres Seaver
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Lennart Regebro wrote: On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 20:43, Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 20:40, Tres Seaver tsea...@palladion.com wrote: How about we move out the testrunner (including updating zc.recipe.testrunner),

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-16 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 22:44, Tres Seaver tsea...@palladion.com wrote: We will have factored the reusable bits (which we know get re-used) into a smaller, cleaner package, which should (I hope) be easier to port. Other packages which depend on only those bits should be more easily testable

Re: [Zope-dev] Circular dependency hell.

2010-04-16 Thread Martin Aspeli
Hi Lennart co, On 17 April 2010 02:38, Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 19:53, Jonathan Lange j...@mumak.net wrote: As the author of one of those other testrunners, I can tell you that if you do this you'll find that your number one biggest problem is getting