Re: [Zope-dev] I feel your Wiki Pain ;-)
Toby Dickenson wrote: How about running the 'Discussion' parts of (in particular) dev.zope.org from ZDiscussions, ZUBB or Squishdot? This may be a good idea... What's wrong with a mailing list? Is this just a case of NIH? Setting up a mailing list for each proposal is painful. Setting up a Squishdot site for each proposal takes 5 minutes, and could even be worked into a 'Create New Proposal' DTML or Python method... Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] I feel your Wiki Pain ;-)
Do you feel that weblogs are bad models for debates? I think they're pretty good least-common-denominators. I would probably prefer the kind of annotation-based thing i described in my last message (and began to sketch in the WikiNG proposal) for collaborative generation of documents, but i can see the place for weblogs, just as i can see a place for network chats. With adequate integration of email (for notification and response), i see them as better than just email... I like the email list proposal of Martijn Faassen earlier on this list. I added some comments to the Wiki discussion page, where someone proposed using XML for Wikis: I agree with Peter that the proposal is practically shouting XML all over the place. In a Zopish way this would mean dividing up a Wiki page in different objects (say Topics or Paragraphs or whatever). So a Wiki page would become an XML document, consisting of Wiki node documents. The advantage is that this would allow for a presentation in the form of - one or several continuous pages as in the OFWikis (OF=Old Fashioned as opposed to NG). - a presentation with 'folded' nodes (like in a folding editor) - a threaded discussion a la S[qu|w]ishdot or the Discussable thingy - an XML document (for who would want it) The editing could be in the form of Martijn Faassens XML Widgets editor: put a node point in front of a 'discussable' node, promote that one to the top when the 'node point' is clicked on and allow for editing. An example below, in which the o stands for an editable (=clickable) node point (for wiki reasons I have not put blank lines between them. pre o this is the first editable node (user::time) this is a comment to it (user::time) and another comment to that (user::time) this another one (user::time) more comments o this the second one this one is not editable o this one is (user::time) a commennt to the last node /pre alternate view (in threaded discussion mode - probably know to all): (- is foldable; + is expandable) pre -This is the first editable node + this is a comment to it - this another one - and another one to that - this the second one this one is not editable +this one is /pre another 2 cents Rik ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] I feel your Wiki Pain ;-)
I like where you're going with this Martijn. Spurred on by your concrete examples, how about this: every wiki page has an email address and functions as a "mailing list". Eg: I could subscribe or send edits to ZWikiWeb:[EMAIL PROTECTED] StructuredTextWiki:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] (defaults to the front page) A zwikiweb could be seen as a hierarchy of very lightweight mail lists. When I subscribe to a page(list), I would also receive edits(mail) to its child pages(lists) by default. Implementation: a sufficiently smart mail server, or (better?) build on the "mail into zope" project for an all-zope solution. Eg: I might install and configure the "ZWikiMail" product, and suddenly my existing wikis are mail-enabled.. Comments ? -Simon ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] I feel your Wiki Pain ;-)
Toby Dickenson wrote: On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:27:33 -0400 (EDT), Ken Manheimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (Not sure that will scale, but creating new lists for each proposal definitely won't scale. I dont see this as a problem: You only create a new list when the traffic for that proposal gets too great for zope-dev. Threading is good enough before that point. You cant do that with todays Wikis, which need to capture the whole discussion right from the beginning (IMO) [snip] I think you could integrate both mailinglists and wikis. On the one hand, often we'd like to preserve a good posting in a mailing list as a wiki page. So we make a separate [EMAIL PROTECTED] address that's subscribed to the mailing list, that keeps listening to the list and sees things like this in postings: Wiki:StructuredTextWiki:FooBarPage This is a bunch of text that should be added to FooBarPage. Wiki:end Or I see you posted something interesting, and *I* think it should be on the list: Wiki:StructuredTextWiki:FooBarPage Something very interesting you wrote Wiki:end It should strip off the quotes automatically in such a case. Some care should be taken so that replies don't add the same text to the wiki *again*. Anyway, so that's the mailinglist to wiki gateway. Now the wiki to mailinglist gateway. There's a very interesting discussion going on about ZFoobar on the MetaSyntaxWiki. So, someone presses the 'make this page into a discussion list' button, and the following happens: * A new mailinglist is created (with some name the user could fill in) * the wiki page is posted to the mailing list as the first message (perhaps after some editing) * if there is a notification system, the existence of the mailinglist is announced (ideally to all people who posted on that page). * the mailinglist is also listed in some central list somewhere on the Zope site. As people post interesting things to the mailing list, the wiki can be informed by the mechanism I described above. There should also be a rule for the list to be shut down as soon as the discussion has died down (no postings for a while, etc). I hope these ideas contribute to the discussion. I too find it harder to keep track of wikis than of a mailing list, and editing structured text in textareas through the web is not very unpleasant. I keep tripping up over structured text rules as well. (that gives me an idea that is fairly simple to implement: [EMAIL PROTECTED] is an address you can mail to directly as well, and whatever you write is added to the wiki page you indicate; we get to use our own editors, parts can be forwarded from the list, and so on) Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] I feel your Wiki Pain ;-)
Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I wonder what Simon Michael is up to nowdays? I have been visiting family.. I'll be back in the US next week. Great thread here. I also feel this pain, grovelling around between wiki, mailing list, newsgroup, message board, etc. I wonder if we should expose all messages, edits and annotations in some RSS/RDF-like format, for easier syncing/monitoring/indexing of the different forums and to faciliate alternate UIs. -Simon ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] I feel your Wiki Pain ;-)
On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:27:33 -0400 (EDT), Ken Manheimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (Not sure that will scale, but creating new lists for each proposal definitely won't scale. I dont see this as a problem: You only create a new list when the traffic for that proposal gets too great for zope-dev. Threading is good enough before that point. You cant do that with todays Wikis, which need to capture the whole discussion right from the beginning (IMO) Note that there's been a *number* of places in this recent WikiNG discussion where' i've cited existing passages that directly address people's points. I don't mean to complain - i think that's one cost increased by disconnecting the discussion and the document. I think you (inadvertantly) provide evidence for my objection that Todays Wikis fragment discussion. Speaking as the person who started this thread, I didnt realise my comments would affect WikiNG until you suggested the issue. The inclusive nature of a mailing list is what makes it a useful community resource. Toby Dickenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] I feel your Wiki Pain ;-)
On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:40:09 -0400 (EDT), Ken Manheimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you feel that weblogs are bad models for debates? I find the wiki and weblog tools available today to be inferior to mailman for debates, and it will take alot of work to develop WikiNG into a serious contender. I suspect the sticky points will be: 1. The ability to read without continuous network connection. 2. A user interface that is not encumbered with transatlantic http round-trips for each user interaction. I think they're [weblogs] pretty good least-common-denominators. i see them [weblogs and wikis] as better than just email... (Ive snipped those two comments out of context, and I hope it doesnt misrepresent Ken) I agree email alone is inadequate Please dont misunderstand me: I am *not* advocating that. Wikis work well for consolidating documents once a rough concensus has been reached. My preference is that the discussion leading up to that concensus takes place on zope-dev. Toby Dickenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
RE: [Zope-dev] I feel your Wiki Pain ;-)
| 1. No threading. On several occasions I have made comments in a Wiki | that were subsequently ignored - I guess because they got lost in the and from the WikiNG proposal: For more elaborate editorial and commentary annotations, i can see layered documents, using mixin objects that provide a tailored view on other or contained objects. The mixin would be a layer by which annotations are associated with text passages in the rendered subject document, like "the crit system":http://crit.org does for arbitrary web pages. Overall, document authors could use a particular annotation structure according to their needs. Eg, discussion objects for points which can be discussed, or brief editorial passages to give feedback, and author checkmarks for when they've satisfied or refute the suggestions, etc. Annotation is a spiffy kind of threading. I dont actually have anything against Wikis in general; I have used on very successfully for what I would describe as "document refinement", and a better annotation scheme will enhance that use of Wikis. The passage you quoted uses terms like "subject document", and at the moment I dont see that as the best model for a *debate* | 2. No personal replies. On several occasions I would have liked to From WikiNG: - Attribution of changes for tracking With attribution, you can identify and could respond directly to the author of a particular passage. It's useful for more, of course. Cool, I missed that one. | 3. No update notification. The one time I was update to | 4. Hard to keep track of many Wikis: Each wiki has its own 'whats The ability to subscribe for notification (above) and/or to track what you personally have seen, and not, is intended for this kind of thing. It would keep me happy if the notification includes a link to the new content (rather than a link to the page that contains new content). Even better, the email notification could *include* the new content. | 6. Too easy to miss the creation of a Wiki. On several occasions My plans for notification subscriptions would be hierarchical, and enable you to subscribe to events like creations of new wikis within a hierarchy - so if you subscribe at the top of the wiki space, you find out about any new wikis, while if you subscribe within the developer's part of the space, you learn about new developers wikis. Etc. (This was not covered in the WikiNG proposal - i was trying to avoid including too many details, and failed miserably anyway...-) Im happy. | 9. I never get the structured text quoting of python source right | first time. The only quoting you need to know is example:: The two colons after the word "example" indicate that this contained block is all quoted. Ill remember that. Your proposed new attribution scheme would help too. As i said in my last reply (but after you posted this, so you couldn't have taken it into account), mailling lists as they stand don't work for establishing growing structures. But Wikis don't (for me, today) work for loosely structured commentry. Quoting from http://dev.zope.org/Fishbowl/Introduction.html In some cases a mailing list will be setup for substantive, large-scale projects. Otherwise existing mailing lists can be leveraged (for now, use zope-dev for this). Perhaps I should rephrase my objection. The *real* problem is that this isnt happening - discussion is stored in Wiki pages like http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Proposals/XxxxDiscussion ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
RE: [Zope-dev] I feel your Wiki Pain ;-)
*This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(tm) Pro* [I'm running out of time here, so pardon the brief responses. Make no mistake, though - i'm glad to be having this discussion! It's good to be getting this input, seeing suggestions for other ways to look at this discussion problem...] On Fri, 15 Sep 2000, Toby Dickenson wrote: I dont actually have anything against Wikis in general; I have used on very successfully for what I would describe as "document refinement", and a better annotation scheme will enhance that use of Wikis. The passage you quoted uses terms like "subject document", and at the moment I dont see that as the best model for a *debate* Do you feel that weblogs are bad models for debates? I think they're pretty good least-common-denominators. I would probably prefer the kind of annotation-based thing i described in my last message (and began to sketch in the WikiNG proposal) for collaborative generation of documents, but i can see the place for weblogs, just as i can see a place for network chats. With adequate integration of email (for notification and response), i see them as better than just email... The ability to subscribe for notification (above) and/or to track what you personally have seen, and not, is intended for this kind of thing. It would keep me happy if the notification includes a link to the new content (rather than a link to the page that contains new content). Even better, the email notification could *include* the new content. Different options for different purposes - but we need at least notification! But Wikis don't (for me, today) work for loosely structured commentry. Quoting from http://dev.zope.org/Fishbowl/Introduction.html In some cases a mailing list will be setup for substantive, large-scale projects. Otherwise existing mailing lists can be leveraged (for now, use zope-dev for this). Perhaps I should rephrase my objection. The *real* problem is that this isnt happening - discussion is stored in Wiki pages like http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Proposals/XxxxDiscussion I think we all agree this is a problem. We seem to have found a short term solution - though i'll tell you that with time constraints, i won't immediately have time to incorporate the points raised in the documents. Ken [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] I feel your Wiki Pain ;-)
A lot of the listed complaints are trying to be addressed by the "WikiNG" proposal, which is (of course) in the Proposals wiki on dev.zope.org. Okay, here's an idea which people may or may not like: How about running the 'Discussion' parts of (in particular) dev.zope.org from ZDiscussions, ZUBB or Squishdot? These products are designed for discussion and are better at it than a Wiki. Speaking for Squishdot, you get a lot of notifcation (not as much as I'd like, wait for Swishdot for that ;-) and threading, and it's even got Stuctured Text support now. end of advert ;-) This may be a good idea... personally, I really don't have much of a problem keeping up with the discussions, but it seems a lot of people do. This idea should probably be floated in dev.zope.org itself as a proposal. I dunno about other people, but I've given up on dev.zope.org simply because I cannot track the changes without having to put in a disproportionate amount of work. You give up fast. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] I feel your Wiki Pain ;-)
On Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:11:56 -0400, Chris McDonough [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A lot of the listed complaints are trying to be addressed by the "WikiNG" proposal, which is (of course) in the Proposals wiki on dev.zope.org. Yes, I was aware of that proposal, and I tried to avoid repeating issues that are already being discussed there. WikiNG is a better kind of collaborative-editing tool, but that seems to be fundamentally the wrong medium for debate. How about running the 'Discussion' parts of (in particular) dev.zope.org from ZDiscussions, ZUBB or Squishdot? This may be a good idea... What's wrong with a mailing list? Is this just a case of NIH? This thread has already been more productive than anything Ive done on a Zope Wiki over the last year, and taken a fraction of the effort. Toby Dickenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
