Re: [Zope-dev] Python and Perl scripts

2000-10-20 Thread jpenny

On Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 01:01:59PM +0100, Chris Withers wrote:
 This one is probably the most useful of the lot ;-)
 
 From: Michel Pelletier [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Greetings,
 
 Well, Jim, Evan, Brian and I pow-wowed yesterday and came up with an
 interesting change.  The world 'Method' is too overlaoded, as it means
 too much to too many people.  Also, Python Methods don't work like
 methods in python, which was my argument, but they are very useful and
 there are sound reasons for them working like they do (which J, E and B
 convinced me of yesterdat).  We have decided to change the name of
 Python Methods to something else, the current candidate being 'Python
 Script'.
 
 'Script' objects make a lot of sense, they don't overload the concept of
 methods, they describe an action that people commonly want to do (script
 the web) and they clear up a lot of potential confusion for newbie and
 old-hat alike.
 

Oh, yuck!  Now we have to explain why PythonScript is safe, and JavaScript
sucks rocks (from a security standpoint).  And from common web convention,
it would appear that PythonScript would run on the client side, rather
than the server side.  Since the -let suffix appears to have taken on
a server side connotation, perhaps that can be used.

Python Function is not quite right, as it is fairly common (for me, at
least) to define some helper functions in a Python Method.  But it is
better than Python Script.

So, I guess my preferences would be:

PythonSafeScriptlet
PythonScriptlet
PythonSafeScript
PythonSafeFunction
PythonFunction
PythonBundle
PythonMethod
PythonScript

in descending order of preference.


 
 -Michel
 
 ___
 Zope-Dev maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev
 **  No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
 (Related lists - 
  http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
  http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
 

___
Zope-Dev maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev
**  No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - 
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )




Re: [Zope-dev] Python and Perl scripts

2000-10-20 Thread Michel Pelletier

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  
  'Script' objects make a lot of sense, they don't overload the concept of
  methods, they describe an action that people commonly want to do (script
  the web) and they clear up a lot of potential confusion for newbie and
  old-hat alike.
  
 
 Oh, yuck!  Now we have to explain why PythonScript is safe, and JavaScript
 sucks rocks (from a security standpoint).  

The proposal is not for PythonScript but a "Python Script".  We are not
inventing a new language, this is python, we are just coming up with the
name for an object.  Don't capitalize it and you'll see what I mean.  Go
write a python script.  I'm gonna write a python script that handles
this HTML form.  If we do this with a python script instead of a DTML
method, it will be much clearer.  Wow, this perl script has lots of
slashes in it.

 And from common web convention,
 it would appear that PythonScript would run on the client side, rather
 than the server side.  Since the -let suffix appears to have taken on
 a server side connotation, perhaps that can be used.

Hmm.  Yes I agree the -let suffix may have a sttronger server side
flavor, but I disagree that the word script has any strong connection to
the client only.

 Python Function is not quite right, as it is fairly common (for me, at
 least) to define some helper functions in a Python Method.  But it is
 better than Python Script.

Function is just as technical as method.  These are OO techncial
programming terms (function less than method).  The idea is to lower the
bar for people using Zope.  People who only know HTML will be much more
likely to grok what a script is than a method.  We want to avoid
elitism.  Method is total OO elitism, function less so because it's very
language neutral, and script is like plain vanilla ice cream, everyone
gets it.

Like chocolate and coconut-shaving covered almonds, technical details
mixed in with your ice-cream will appeal only to a smaller crowd.  It
will not help define what 'ice cream' is.  It will turn away a group of
users who may have never know they could mix in sardines and sweet
tarts.  Technical details before the key idea is explained is
*dangerous* belive me, and it is the pitfall of all existing Zope
documentation to date.

The new DC documentation motto is "Explain key ideas in simple terms." 
Method is not a simple term.

 So, I guess my preferences would be:
 
 PythonSafeScriptlet
 PythonScriptlet
 PythonSafeScript
 PythonSafeFunction
 PythonFunction
 PythonBundle
 PythonMethod
 PythonScript
 
 in descending order of preference.

I'll add these to the list of candidates.  Thanks!

-Michel

___
Zope-Dev maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev
**  No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - 
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )




Re: [Zope-dev] Python and Perl scripts

2000-10-20 Thread jpenny

On Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 02:18:47PM -0700, Michel Pelletier wrote:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
 The proposal is not for PythonScript but a "Python Script".  We are not
 inventing a new language, this is python, we are just coming up with the
 name for an object.  Don't capitalize it and you'll see what I mean.  Go
 write a python script.  I'm gonna write a python script that handles
 this HTML form.  If we do this with a python script instead of a DTML
 method, it will be much clearer.  Wow, this perl script has lots of
 slashes in it.

I understand, but if naming is under consideration, I worry about
inadvertant connotations.  I feel that in the web space, _-script
has come to mean that the language is a client side actor, witness
javascript, ecmascript, vbscript.  

(On the other hand, PythonScript, PerlScript, and ReXXScript appear
be server side stuff in ASP.) 

And I see a difference between PythonScript and Python Script, but
I don't hear it!

 Function is just as technical as method.  These are OO techncial
 programming terms (function less than method).  The idea is to lower the
 bar for people using Zope.  People who only know HTML will be much more
 likely to grok what a script is than a method.  We want to avoid
 elitism.  Method is total OO elitism, function less so because it's very
 language neutral, and script is like plain vanilla ice cream, everyone
 gets it.
 
 Like chocolate and coconut-shaving covered almonds, technical details
 mixed in with your ice-cream will appeal only to a smaller crowd.  It
 will not help define what 'ice cream' is.  It will turn away a group of
 users who may have never know they could mix in sardines and sweet
 tarts.  Technical details before the key idea is explained is
 *dangerous* belive me, and it is the pitfall of all existing Zope
 documentation to date.

Actually, I am not sure that script is much less technical than
function.  I think script, as in bash script, or scripting language
is very crabbed and technical indeed.  The only pre-computer usages
I know of script(n.) are indicative of a cursive style of writing,
apeper money,  or a thing that playwrights produce.  I don't think 
that playwrights are going to suddenly start wanting to use python!  
I think that script, as in "scripting language" is simply something 
that most people indeed do not get!

 
 The new DC documentation motto is "Explain key ideas in simple terms." 
 Method is not a simple term.
 

I don't disagree with your goal.  I do disagree with this particular
choice of words.  

I can see four potential properties that one could want to emphasize
about a python method.

1) It is safer (to the Zope server) than a python external method.
2) It safer to the end user than a JavaScript (it never touches the client).
3) It uses python, and not something else as its implementation technique.
4) In OO terms, it is not really a Method.

Hence the preference for Safe in the name.  Even a newbie ought not to
be able to cut himself too badly on a python method.

There is talk of perl methods.  So we need python in the description.

Now we just need a generic term, which will not cause other confusions
later on down the road for the concept.  I really don't like script,
especially next to a language name (in the web domain).  You don't like
function (which was not my suggestion).  Thingie seems a bit too non-
descriptive.  Widget has technical meaning.  Perhaps task or job are
suitable, as in
Safe Python Task
Safe Python Job
Safe Python Subtask
Safe Python Function
Safe Python Script

Then external methods, which are often also not methods, can become
Flexible Python Task
Flexible Python Job
Flexible Python Subtask
Flexible Python Function
Flexible Python Script

But if you really want to use
Tame Snake Thingy, and
Wild Snake Thingy,
go ahead, but please do not credit me in the documentation!

As another obesrvation, substituting script for method is not really all
that helpful for the other (misnamed) method, DTML Method.
DTML Script is just not all that much clearer!

 Zope-Dev maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev
 **  No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
 (Related lists - 
  http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
  http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
 

___
Zope-Dev maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev
**  No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - 
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )




Re: [Zope-dev] Python and Perl scripts

2000-10-20 Thread Michel Pelletier

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 

snip good discussion

 Now we just need a generic term, which will not cause other confusions
 later on down the road for the concept.  I really don't like script,
 especially next to a language name (in the web domain).  You don't like
 function (which was not my suggestion).  Thingie seems a bit too non-
 descriptive.  Widget has technical meaning.  Perhaps task or job are
 suitable, as in
 Safe Python Task
 Safe Python Job
 Safe Python Subtask
 Safe Python Function
 Safe Python Script
 
 Then external methods, which are often also not methods, can become
 Flexible Python Task
 Flexible Python Job
 Flexible Python Subtask
 Flexible Python Function
 Flexible Python Script
 
 But if you really want to use
 Tame Snake Thingy, and
 Wild Snake Thingy,
 go ahead, but please do not credit me in the documentation!

Well they'll all go on the list of candidates!  Thanks for your input, I
kinda like task...
 
 As another obesrvation, substituting script for method is not really all
 that helpful for the other (misnamed) method, DTML Method.
 DTML Script is just not all that much clearer!

Rumor has it DTML Methods are going to be renamed to "DTML Template" or
something like that.

Keep in mind also that we are moving towards a new architecture with
"Documents" and "Templates" (ala HyperDOM).  I think Scripts fits right
in there:

Documents, Templates and Scripts

or

Documents, Templates and Methods

?

-Michel

___
Zope-Dev maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev
**  No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - 
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )




Re: [Zope-dev] Python and Perl scripts

2000-10-20 Thread Steve Waterbury

Michel Pelletier wrote:

 snip good discussion

and move on to something REALLY silly!  :^

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  descriptive.  Widget has technical meaning.  Perhaps task or job are
  suitable, as in
  Safe Python Task
  Safe Python Job
  Safe Python Subtask
  Safe Python Function
  Safe Python Script
 
  Then external methods, which are often also not methods, can become
  Flexible Python Task
  Flexible Python Job
  Flexible Python Subtask
  Flexible Python Function
  Flexible Python Script
 
  But if you really want to use
  Tame Snake Thingy, and
  Wild Snake Thingy,
  go ahead, but please do not credit me in the documentation!

 Documents, Templates and Scripts
 or
 Documents, Templates and Methods

I REALLY like Thingy!  And a very Pythonesque choice it would 
be ... :^)  Python Thingies and Perl Thingies.  How nice to be 
so connotationless!  ... but maybe not so connotationless ... 
recalling the usage of "thingy" in the Python, Monty oeuvre 
("YOU know ... THINGY!!") ... you might want to consider

Tame Snake Sex, and 
Wild Snake Sex, 

so then you have 
Documents, Templates, and Sex

Python Sex vs. Perl Sex? ... wow, just think of it!  
Of course, alibis about working late would have to be 
carefully worded ...

Sorry ... it's late on a Friday ... but I DO like Thingy!  :^)

Cheers,
-- Steve.

   oo _\o
\/\ \
  /
 oo _
"Sometime you're the windshield; sometime you're the bug."
- Knopfler

Stephen C. Waterbury   Component Technologies
Code 562, NASA/GSFC  and Radiation Effects Branch
Greenbelt, MD 20771   Engineering Web/Database Specialist
Tel: 301-286-7557  FAX:  301-286-1695
WWW:  http://misspiggy.gsfc.nasa.gov/people/waterbug.html
_

___
Zope-Dev maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev
**  No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - 
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )




Re: [Zope-dev] Python and Perl scripts

2000-10-20 Thread Michael Bernstein

Michel Pelletier wrote:
 
 Keep in mind also that we are moving towards a new architecture with
 "Documents" and "Templates" (ala HyperDOM).  I think Scripts fits right
 in there:
 
 Documents, Templates and Scripts
 
 or
 
 Documents, Templates and Methods

I tend to think of things as:

Objects, Views (or Templates) and Blocks.

The diference (for me) between a View and a Block is whether
they are intended to be accessed directly by a client
(browser). Blocks also tend to be reuseable in many views (I
typically have a Block (DTML Method) called main_navigation,
for example), and can be composed of other Blocks. Views
like index_html may be reused, but usually through
acquisition, not recomposition.

The lines are fuzzy though, since I'm usually using the same
types of objects (DTML Methods) for both Views and Blocks.
Perhaps we need an object type that is not directly
accessible from a client (but may only be called or rendered
from other objects) in order to clarify the distinction.

Michael Bernstein.

___
Zope-Dev maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev
**  No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
(Related lists - 
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
 http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )