Re: [Zope-dev] Why are ZClasses Dead

2007-04-18 Thread Andreas Jung



--On 18. April 2007 16:31:29 -0700 Christopher Lozinski 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:





3. There is no one to maintain ZClasses
Again not true, I need to do it for my own interests.   I am at the point
where I want to upgrade ZClasses


You're telling us that for years...submit code, human resources or money
in order to keep ZClasses alive.

You may have a legitimate in ZClasses just because of your business needs 
are as they are. Also as Martin Aspeli pointed out there might be some need 
in the Zope world for *something* ZClass-like. In the current Zope world

we have better alternatives to get easy things implemented more easily -
see GROK which is a really good example how to turn the Zope 3 into an 
easy-to-use system!


Once again: you have a vision...that's good. However most of us don't share
your vision when it comes to the implementation detail called ZClasses. 
If you want something better it is up to you to get ZClassesNG or whatever 
it would be called started. However the current ZClasses implementation 
isn't suitable for bigger projects as indicated multiple times.


I am not negative because you talk about ZClasses but about that you're 
talking (and complaining) about ZClasses and their state since years

without contributing anything to ZClasses. This makes you just implausible
to me.

Andreas

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Re: [Zope-dev] Why are ZClasses Dead

2007-04-18 Thread Andreas Jung



--On 18. April 2007 16:31:29 -0700 Christopher Lozinski 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


AND HERE IS THE REAL ISSUE I THINK
7.  Because of the way Zope is written, you just cannot do ZClasses
right.   You would have to change zope, and break lots of things.
I think that is the core reason that some people say ZClasses are dead.
I am just starting to understand it.   I have been digging into the core
of Zope.   I keep excavating lower than I have ever excavated before.   I
would like to make a tree of classes, just like in the smalltalk
browsers.  Zope Products manager or whatever it is called does not like
that.   I would like  a ZClass to have a subobject for every instance
variable, and for that instance variable to say which role can read, and
write it, independent of where you are in the ZODB tree.   Not quite how
Zope permissions work.   So I think the structure of Zope prevents
ZClasses from working correctly.  Which is why ZClasses needs to die.  Is
that correct?

Because to change the core of Zope is way too heretical.  Better for
ZClasses to die, than to change the core of Zope 2.


Why should be change the core of Zope 2 just to making ZClasses work better
with *the risk* to break Zope 2 backward-compatibility? 
Backward-compatibility is nowadays the *most important* point when 
performing

changes in the Zope 2 core. Just for this reason: forget it

Better go with Zope 3 which is definitely more flexible when it comes to 
configuration and composition of components. Since you're on the siding 
with your personal implementations it does not mean that we have to change 
the core (just because you need it). Patches, improvements etc. that improve
the ZClasses situation and that are compatible with older versions are of 
course always highly appreciated. But please: come up with 
*something*...don't except that the solution for your particular problems
falls from the sky (or comes from one of the Zope 2 core developers)...it's 
time for personal efforts.


Andreas

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