Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...

2009-04-08 Thread Martijn Faassen
Chris Withers wrote:
 Gary Poster wrote:
 Within the constraints above, then, in line with your original proposal, 
 I think we'd be fine with Zope Framework, and Zope 2.  We certainly 
 don't need Zope-3-the-tarball, if that's what you meant.
 
 Zope Framework (and maybe even ZF4) seems to have general agreement.
 
 Zope 2 can't stay as is, because people stick in in the chain of:
 Zope 1, Zope 2, Zope 3, Zope Framework 4
 ...so there will be confusion.

This isn't a chain. Zope Framework is not Zope the app server. It's a 
collection of libraries used by Zope 2 and Zope 3.

Regards,

Martijn

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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...

2009-04-08 Thread Chris Withers


Martijn Faassen wrote:
 Chris Withers wrote:
 Gary Poster wrote:
 Within the constraints above, then, in line with your original proposal, 
 I think we'd be fine with Zope Framework, and Zope 2.  We certainly 
 don't need Zope-3-the-tarball, if that's what you meant.
 Zope Framework (and maybe even ZF4) seems to have general agreement.

 Zope 2 can't stay as is, because people stick in in the chain of:
 Zope 1, Zope 2, Zope 3, Zope Framework 4
 ...so there will be confusion.
 
 This isn't a chain. 

*we* know that, but any sane human being wondering past won't.

 Zope Framework is not Zope the app server. It's a 
 collection of libraries used by Zope 2 and Zope 3.

See comment above ;-)

Everyone seems in agreement that Zope Framework is fine, and 4.0 would 
be a good idea as a version number to make that official and clear.

I'd like to see a list of possible names for Zope 2 and Zope 3 
collected (I'm happy to do this) and put to a vote of the foundation 
membership *soon* and then we can get on with actually using the new 
names once you (as currently leader of the Zope world ;-) ) have made an 
announcement.

cheers,

Chris

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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...

2009-04-05 Thread Dieter Maurer
Chris Withers wrote at 2009-4-2 21:29 +0100:
Andreas Jung wrote:
 Andrew  others have been working on this issue at the sprint. There is
 consensus that www.zope.org must be turned into landing page with some
 mission statement and then links to the related subprojects. The current
 zope.org site should be moved to old.zope.org (it must remain
 available for the time being (with URL redirections to the Products
 and Member area).

Why does it need to keep living even at old.zope.org?

Because members put there content (product implementations) still usable?



-- 
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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...

2009-04-05 Thread Michael Haubenwallner
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Dieter Maurer wrote:
 Chris Withers wrote at 2009-4-2 21:29 +0100:
 Andreas Jung wrote:
 Andrew  others have been working on this issue at the sprint. There is
 consensus that www.zope.org must be turned into landing page with some
 mission statement and then links to the related subprojects. The current
 zope.org site should be moved to old.zope.org (it must remain
 available for the time being (with URL redirections to the Products
 and Member area).
 Why does it need to keep living even at old.zope.org?
 
 Because members put there content (product implementations) still usable?
 
 

There really should be not problem to integrate current
www.zope.org/Products and www.zope.org/Members including the LDAP
authentication service into an new www.zope.org. No need to break any
links - we already did similar with moving DevHome wikis out to
wiki.zope.org. I'd be happy to adjust the current skins (Plone1.0.3) to
whatever look is needed.

Regards
Michael

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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...

2009-04-05 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 08:32, Dieter Maurer die...@handshake.de wrote:
 Because members put there content (product implementations) still usable?

Absolutely right. In the long run that should probably be moved over
to PyPI though.

-- 
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http://regebro.wordpress.com/
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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...

2009-04-05 Thread Tres Seaver
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Lennart Regebro wrote:
 On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 08:32, Dieter Maurer die...@handshake.de wrote:
 Because members put there content (product implementations) still usable?
 
 Absolutely right. In the long run that should probably be moved over
 to PyPI though.


PyPI won't work for non-eggified products.


Tres.
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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...

2009-04-05 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 17:23, Tres Seaver tsea...@palladion.com wrote:
 PyPI won't work for non-eggified products.

Right, so they need to be eggified then, which is a Good Thing. :)
I'm not saying they should be moved *now*. Just in the long run. If
the product is still maintained and cared about, eggifying it and
moving it to PyPI isn't that much work.

The alternative is to make a new products directory on zope.org, which
is of course completely possible.

-- 
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http://regebro.wordpress.com/
+33 661 58 14 64
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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...

2009-04-05 Thread Michael Haubenwallner
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Tres Seaver wrote:
 Lennart Regebro wrote:
 On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 08:32, Dieter Maurer die...@handshake.de wrote:
 Because members put there content (product implementations) still usable?
 Absolutely right. In the long run that should probably be moved over
 to PyPI though.
 
 
 PyPI won't work for non-eggified products.
 

What do you mean by won't work here?

Regards
Michael

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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...

2009-04-03 Thread Chris Withers
Gary Poster wrote:
 
 Within the constraints above, then, in line with your original proposal, 
 I think we'd be fine with Zope Framework, and Zope 2.  We certainly 
 don't need Zope-3-the-tarball, if that's what you meant.

Zope Framework (and maybe even ZF4) seems to have general agreement.

Zope 2 can't stay as is, because people stick in in the chain of:
Zope 1, Zope 2, Zope 3, Zope Framework 4
...so there will be confusion.

Zope Standard 4.0 is my current choice, on the basis that I've not 
heard any complaints against it yet and I know Andreas hates Zope 
Classic ;-)

 As a related aside, I personally think that Plone should be featured here.

Indeed.

ZF4 as the base for ZS, Plone, Grok and Repoze works for me :-)

Chris

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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...

2009-04-02 Thread Jim Fulton
On Apr 2, 2009, at 3:57 PM, Chris Withers wrote:

 Remember this:

 http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2001/04/01/parrot.htm

 Well, that lead to this:

 http://www.parrot.org/

 One of the reasons I got suckered into replying was that I thought  
 this
 might be the result of some stuff a few of us had talked about at the
 Zope BOF at PyCon.

 I actually think having a 4.0 release of Zope that unifies things  
 could
 be used to make things a lot clearer...

 - Zope Framework 4.0

 What Martijn has announced and is already being worked on extensively.

 - Zope A 4.0

 What was to be Zope 2.12

 - Zope B 4.0

 Whatever the next pending release of the Zope 3 appserver stuff was to
 be. (Need to keep the Canonical and ZC guys happy afterall ;-) )

 www.zope.org could then just be a radically cut down link portal to
 a.zope.org, b.zope.org and framework.zope.org, which I'd imagine to be
 brochurewear, download and/or KGS sites for each of the above.

 I'd suggesting splitting the svn access stuff out to dev.zope.org
 because it transcends all three.

 docs.zope.org could hoover up the rest, with any remaining stuff being
 humanely dispatched.

 Seriously, how do people feel about this?


I don't think we need AB.  Maybe just Zope and Zope Framework.

I like the idea of using a number larger than 3. (I've suggested 5 in  
the past.)

Overall +1.

Jim

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Zope Corporation


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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...

2009-04-02 Thread Chris Withers
Jim Fulton wrote:
 What Martijn has announced and is already being worked on extensively.

 - Zope A 4.0

 What was to be Zope 2.12

 - Zope B 4.0

 Whatever the next pending release of the Zope 3 appserver stuff was to
 be. (Need to keep the Canonical and ZC guys happy afterall ;-) )

 www.zope.org could then just be a radically cut down link portal to
 a.zope.org, b.zope.org and framework.zope.org, which I'd imagine to be
 brochurewear, download and/or KGS sites for each of the above.

 I'd suggesting splitting the svn access stuff out to dev.zope.org
 because it transcends all three.

 docs.zope.org could hoover up the rest, with any remaining stuff being
 humanely dispatched.

 Seriously, how do people feel about this?
 
 I don't think we need AB.  Maybe just Zope and Zope Framework.

Unfortunately, as we discovered at the BOF, and what is currently a 
significant cause of confusion, is that the Zope bit isn't just one 
thing, we basically have two app-server projects named Zope right now:

- Zope 2

Used by Plone, and a few die-hard stragglers and unfortunate passerby's 
who get sucked in by the rubbish on www.zope.org

- Zope 3

Use by Canonical for Launchpad and (well, was suspected anyway) by ZC. 
I'm sure there are more.

The only sane solution I can think of is to give them both different 
names (I'm not wedded to A and B, maybe Classic and Advanced?) and let 
them evolve at their own pace from now on. I suspect their evolution 
will be glacial compared to things like Repoze.bfg and Grok, which 
should become the new user stories in the Zope world.

I'd *really* like to see the majority of the current www.zope.org simply 
eradicated from existence. It's out of date and a source of nothing but 
confusion.

cheers,

Chris

-- 
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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...

2009-04-02 Thread Jim Fulton

On Apr 2, 2009, at 4:17 PM, Chris Withers wrote:

 Jim Fulton wrote:
 What Martijn has announced and is already being worked on  
 extensively.

 - Zope A 4.0

 What was to be Zope 2.12

 - Zope B 4.0

 Whatever the next pending release of the Zope 3 appserver stuff  
 was to
 be. (Need to keep the Canonical and ZC guys happy afterall ;-) )

 www.zope.org could then just be a radically cut down link portal to
 a.zope.org, b.zope.org and framework.zope.org, which I'd imagine  
 to be
 brochurewear, download and/or KGS sites for each of the above.

 I'd suggesting splitting the svn access stuff out to dev.zope.org
 because it transcends all three.

 docs.zope.org could hoover up the rest, with any remaining stuff  
 being
 humanely dispatched.

 Seriously, how do people feel about this?
 I don't think we need AB.  Maybe just Zope and Zope Framework.

 Unfortunately, as we discovered at the BOF, and what is currently a  
 significant cause of confusion, is that the Zope bit isn't just  
 one thing, we basically have two app-server projects named Zope  
 right now:

 - Zope 2

 Used by Plone, and a few die-hard stragglers and unfortunate  
 passerby's who get sucked in by the rubbish on www.zope.org

 - Zope 3

 Use by Canonical for Launchpad and (well, was suspected anyway) by  
 ZC. I'm sure there are more.

We and canonical use the Zope Framework.  We don't use an  
application.  Zope (aka Zope 2) is an extensible application. We (ZC  
and Canonical and others) assemble components from the Zope Framework  
to build our own applications.

Jim

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Zope Corporation


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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...

2009-04-02 Thread Chris Withers
Jim Fulton wrote:
 We and canonical use the Zope Framework.  We don't use an  
 application.  Zope (aka Zope 2) is an extensible application. We (ZC  
 and Canonical and others) assemble components from the Zope Framework  
 to build our own applications.

Hmm, maybe I got this wrong, but Gary Poster expressed a strong concern 
that zope 3 the app server needed to keep living.

I do think the name Zope should never be used on its own again.

I think Zope Classic would certainly work for Zope 2 the app server, 
it conveys the right things:

- mature
- stable
- maybe not the best choice for new development.

cheers,

Chris

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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...

2009-04-02 Thread Andreas Jung
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On 02.04.2009 22:17 Uhr, Chris Withers wrote:

 I'd *really* like to see the majority of the current www.zope.org simply 
 eradicated from existence. It's out of date and a source of nothing but 
 confusion.


Andrew  others have been working on this issue at the sprint. There is
consensus that www.zope.org must be turned into landing page with some
mission statement and then links to the related subprojects. The current
zope.org site should be moved to old.zope.org (it must remain
available for the time being (with URL redirections to the Products
and Member area).

- -aj
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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...

2009-04-02 Thread Chris Withers
Andreas Jung wrote:
 Andrew  others have been working on this issue at the sprint. There is
 consensus that www.zope.org must be turned into landing page with some
 mission statement and then links to the related subprojects. The current
 zope.org site should be moved to old.zope.org (it must remain
 available for the time being (with URL redirections to the Products
 and Member area).

Why does it need to keep living even at old.zope.org?

Chris

-- 
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- http://www.simplistix.co.uk
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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...

2009-04-02 Thread Andreas Jung
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Hash: SHA1

On 02.04.2009 22:29 Uhr, Chris Withers wrote:
 Andreas Jung wrote:
 Andrew  others have been working on this issue at the sprint. There is
 consensus that www.zope.org must be turned into landing page with some
 mission statement and then links to the related subprojects. The current
 zope.org site should be moved to old.zope.org (it must remain
 available for the time being (with URL redirections to the Products
 and Member area).
 
 Why does it need to keep living even at old.zope.org?


Because we can't break existing download URL - neither to old Zope
releases nor to old product releases.

- -aj
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tel;home:+49-7071-793257
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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...

2009-04-02 Thread Chris Withers
Andreas Jung wrote:
 
 Because we can't break existing download URL - neither to old Zope
 releases 

I'd imagine the full set of releases would appear on the respective 
parts of classic.zope.org or advanced.zope.org...

  nor to old product releases.

I wonder how many of these are actually safe to use nowadays?
(ie: run without patching and have an active maintainer)

Chris

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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...

2009-04-02 Thread Chris Withers
Andreas Jung wrote:
 I'd imagine the full set of releases would appear on the respective
 parts of classic.zope.org or advanced.zope.org...
 
 *shrug* I don't care if those releases on the new zope2.zope.org

Please not zope2.zope.org, the insane version naming has *got* to stop...

 microsite or somewhere else. The point is that the release should
 remain available under their well-known URL

How does moving it all to old.zope.org fit with this requirement?

Chris

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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...

2009-04-02 Thread Andreas Jung
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On 02.04.2009 22:45 Uhr, Chris Withers wrote:
 Andreas Jung wrote:
 I'd imagine the full set of releases would appear on the respective
 parts of classic.zope.org or advanced.zope.org...

 *shrug* I don't care if those releases on the new zope2.zope.org
 
 Please not zope2.zope.org, the insane version naming has *got* to stop...

We might discuss this unhurriedly. To sleep and being in vacation mood
in order to discuss this now :-) At least the term 'classic' is a NO-GO
for me.

 
 microsite or somewhere else. The point is that the release should
 remain available under their well-known URL
 
 How does moving it all to old.zope.org fit with this requirement?

That was actually my proposal if I wasn't clear enough.

Andreas
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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...

2009-04-02 Thread Chris Withers
Andreas Jung wrote:
 We might discuss this unhurriedly. To sleep and being in vacation mood
 in order to discuss this now :-) At least the term 'classic' is a NO-GO
 for me.

Why? Would you prefer 'a' or maybe 'old'? ;-)

 microsite or somewhere else. The point is that the release should
 remain available under their well-known URL
 How does moving it all to old.zope.org fit with this requirement?
 
 That was actually my proposal if I wasn't clear enough.

You were clear that you want both old.zope.org and releases to remain 
available under their well-known urls. I don't see how those two 
requirements are compatible?

Chris

-- 
Simplistix - Content Management, Zope  Python Consulting
- http://www.simplistix.co.uk
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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...

2009-04-02 Thread Andreas Jung
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Hash: SHA1

On 02.04.2009 22:52 Uhr, Chris Withers wrote:
 Andreas Jung wrote:
 We might discuss this unhurriedly. To sleep and being in vacation mood
 in order to discuss this now :-) At least the term 'classic' is a NO-GO
 for me.
 
 Why? Would you prefer 'a' or maybe 'old'? ;-)
 
 microsite or somewhere else. The point is that the release should
 remain available under their well-known URL
 How does moving it all to old.zope.org fit with this requirement?

 That was actually my proposal if I wasn't clear enough.
 
 You were clear that you want both old.zope.org and releases to remain
 available under their well-known urls. I don't see how those two
 requirements are compatible?

You heard of rewrite rules? :-)

Andreas
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