Re: [Zope-dev] deprecate http://download.zope.org/distribution

2008-11-28 Thread Martijn Faassen
Hey,

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Martijn Faassen wrote:

 It's clearly the case that people who are reading this thread know how
 to avoid download.zope.org. The people who are not reading this thread
 just get tough luck from the Zope community when their software
 doesn't work anymore.

 No, that's not quite what I said. I'm pretty sure if someone came to any
 Zope list and said download.zope.org gives me errors the nthey'd get the
 help they need.

They wouldn't, as they'd need to figure out which versions of which
packages that they depend on that are on download.zope.org should be
replaced with what other versions. That can be quite a list and costs
even experts a quite few hours to work through - we've done this with
Grok.

 Someone gettign subtle bugs because http://download.zope.org/distribution
 still exists but is filled with cruft may well not.

I'm talking about a scenario where you have *existing* software that
has been tested to work, and we suddenly break it by shutting down the
URL.

Regards,

Martijn
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Re: [Zope-dev] deprecate http://download.zope.org/distribution

2008-11-28 Thread Chris Withers
Martijn Faassen wrote:
 It's clearly the case that people who are reading this thread know how
 to avoid download.zope.org. The people who are not reading this thread
 just get tough luck from the Zope community when their software
 doesn't work anymore. 

No, that's not quite what I said. I'm pretty sure if someone came to any 
Zope list and said download.zope.org gives me errors the nthey'd get 
the help they need.

Someone gettign subtle bugs because 
http://download.zope.org/distribution still exists but is filled with 
cruft may well not.

cheers,

Chris

-- 
Simplistix - Content Management, Zope  Python Consulting
- http://www.simplistix.co.uk
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Re: [Zope-dev] deprecate http://download.zope.org/distribution

2008-11-20 Thread Martijn Faassen
Tres Seaver wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 Martijn Faassen wrote:
[snip]
 -1 to removing it. There is actually code out there that explicitly 
 relies on versions of packages that can only be found in this place. Now 
 of course that should be fixed, but even if it was fixed, that doesn't 
 mean we should make older versions uninstallable.
 
 Anybody who really needs such an egg should be competent to rebuild it
 from SVN (since the revision ID or tag is implied by the name), and
 should certainly be willing to host that egg in a private index /
 location for their project:  in fact, they should take this discussion
 as notice to copy the egg to such a location *now*.

I disagree.

If we released a version of Grok, say, back in the day that relied on an 
egg that's in that location, and someone built an application back in 
the day that relies on that version of Grok, and then they wrote a nice 
INSTALL.txt that said to the sysadmin how to install that application, 
it'll break. That sysadmin won't be competent enough and certainly won't 
be following this discussion. That old location was not great release 
management by the Zope project. Just removing it is really really bad 
release management by the Zope project.

Regards,

Martijn

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Re: [Zope-dev] deprecate http://download.zope.org/distribution

2008-11-20 Thread Chris Withers
Martijn Faassen wrote:
 If we released a version of Grok, say, back in the day that relied on an 
 egg that's in that location, and someone built an application back in 
 the day that relies on that version of Grok, and then they wrote a nice 
 INSTALL.txt that said to the sysadmin how to install that application, 
 it'll break. 

I call tough luck on that.
The world moves on, stuff degrades and eventually stops working. 
dwonload.zope.org is reaching such a time ;-)
The red-herring effect outweighs what you're talking about.

It also goes to show that apps should really be bundled as source 
installations or have their own private egg repositories if you want 
them to be installable forever. What happens when PyPI goes away in 
favour of the-next-great-thing?

If you're more paranoid, apps should be built as VM images that don't 
even rely on egg downloads ;-)

cheers,

Chris

-- 
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- http://www.simplistix.co.uk
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Re: [Zope-dev] deprecate http://download.zope.org/distribution

2008-11-20 Thread Martijn Faassen
Hey,

On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 10:40 PM, Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Martijn Faassen wrote:

 If we released a version of Grok, say, back in the day that relied on an
 egg that's in that location, and someone built an application back in the
 day that relies on that version of Grok, and then they wrote a nice
 INSTALL.txt that said to the sysadmin how to install that application, it'll
 break.

 I call tough luck on that.
 The world moves on, stuff degrades and eventually stops working.
 dwonload.zope.org is reaching such a time ;-)

It's clearly the case that people who are reading this thread know how
to avoid download.zope.org. The people who are not reading this thread
just get tough luck from the Zope community when their software
doesn't work anymore. They're left to find this thread. I think that's
one reason the Zope community has so much trouble growing.

Regards,

Martijn
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Re: [Zope-dev] deprecate http://download.zope.org/distribution

2008-11-19 Thread Martijn Faassen
Tres Seaver wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 Christian Zagrodnick wrote:
 On 2008-11-12 23:41:55 +0100, Jim Fulton [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

 http://download.zope.org/distribution was set up as a place to publish
 distributions while we were learning about setuptools, eggs, and
 pypi.  I think now, we're all using PyPI (or local repositories).  I'd
 like to deprecate this site, making it read-only for now, but
 eventually removing it.
 Yeah, make it read only. But I'd just leave it there. We have the 
 policy of not removing eggs which are out there, so I suggest leaving 
 the eggs there.
 
 - -1:  many of the eggs that are there should never have been released at
 all in a public repository:  they are attractive nuisances.
 
 +1 for removing the bear trap ASAP.

-1 to removing it. There is actually code out there that explicitly 
relies on versions of packages that can only be found in this place. Now 
of course that should be fixed, but even if it was fixed, that doesn't 
mean we should make older versions uninstallable.

Regards,

Martijn

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Re: [Zope-dev] deprecate http://download.zope.org/distribution

2008-11-19 Thread Tres Seaver
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Martijn Faassen wrote:
 Tres Seaver wrote:

 Christian Zagrodnick wrote:
 On 2008-11-12 23:41:55 +0100, Jim Fulton [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

 http://download.zope.org/distribution was set up as a place to publish
 distributions while we were learning about setuptools, eggs, and
 pypi.  I think now, we're all using PyPI (or local repositories).  I'd
 like to deprecate this site, making it read-only for now, but
 eventually removing it.
 Yeah, make it read only. But I'd just leave it there. We have the 
 policy of not removing eggs which are out there, so I suggest leaving 
 the eggs there.
 - -1:  many of the eggs that are there should never have been released at
 all in a public repository:  they are attractive nuisances.

 +1 for removing the bear trap ASAP.
 
 -1 to removing it. There is actually code out there that explicitly 
 relies on versions of packages that can only be found in this place. Now 
 of course that should be fixed, but even if it was fixed, that doesn't 
 mean we should make older versions uninstallable.

Anybody who really needs such an egg should be competent to rebuild it
from SVN (since the revision ID or tag is implied by the name), and
should certainly be willing to host that egg in a private index /
location for their project:  in fact, they should take this discussion
as notice to copy the egg to such a location *now*.


Tres.
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Re: [Zope-dev] deprecate http://download.zope.org/distribution

2008-11-19 Thread Wichert Akkerman
Previously Tres Seaver wrote:
 Anybody who really needs such an egg should be competent to rebuild it
 from SVN (since the revision ID or tag is implied by the name), and
 should certainly be willing to host that egg in a private index /
 location for their project:  in fact, they should take this discussion
 as notice to copy the egg to such a location *now*.

download.zope.org/distribution/ appears to be the only location for the
PILwoTK egg. Is there another place where one can get that?

Wichert.

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http://www.wiggy.net/   It is hard to make things simple.
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Re: [Zope-dev] deprecate http://download.zope.org/distribution

2008-11-19 Thread Tres Seaver
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Wichert Akkerman wrote:
 Previously Tres Seaver wrote:
 Anybody who really needs such an egg should be competent to rebuild it
 from SVN (since the revision ID or tag is implied by the name), and
 should certainly be willing to host that egg in a private index /
 location for their project:  in fact, they should take this discussion
 as notice to copy the egg to such a location *now*.
 
 download.zope.org/distribution/ appears to be the only location for the
 PILwoTK egg. Is there another place where one can get that?

One might download it and put it in ones own index.  For instance, the
repoze distributino server provides a variantion:  a setuptools-friendly
distribution:

  http://dist.repoze.org/PIL-1.1.6.tar.gz

(and the various indexes on that server).



Tres.
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Re: [Zope-dev] deprecate http://download.zope.org/distribution

2008-11-14 Thread Christian Zagrodnick
On 2008-11-12 23:41:55 +0100, Jim Fulton [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

 
 http://download.zope.org/distribution was set up as a place to publish
 distributions while we were learning about setuptools, eggs, and
 pypi.  I think now, we're all using PyPI (or local repositories).  I'd
 like to deprecate this site, making it read-only for now, but
 eventually removing it.

Yeah, make it read only. But I'd just leave it there. We have the 
policy of not removing eggs which are out there, so I suggest leaving 
the eggs there.

-- 
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gocept gmbh  co. kg · forsterstraße 29 · 06112 halle (saale) · germany
http://gocept.com · tel +49 345 1229889 4 · fax +49 345 1229889 1
Zope and Plone consulting and development


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Re: [Zope-dev] deprecate http://download.zope.org/distribution

2008-11-14 Thread Tres Seaver
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Hash: SHA1

Christian Zagrodnick wrote:
 On 2008-11-12 23:41:55 +0100, Jim Fulton [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
 
 http://download.zope.org/distribution was set up as a place to publish
 distributions while we were learning about setuptools, eggs, and
 pypi.  I think now, we're all using PyPI (or local repositories).  I'd
 like to deprecate this site, making it read-only for now, but
 eventually removing it.
 
 Yeah, make it read only. But I'd just leave it there. We have the 
 policy of not removing eggs which are out there, so I suggest leaving 
 the eggs there.

- -1:  many of the eggs that are there should never have been released at
all in a public repository:  they are attractive nuisances.

+1 for removing the bear trap ASAP.


Ters.
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Re: [Zope-dev] deprecate http://download.zope.org/distribution

2008-11-14 Thread Russ Ferriday

On 14 Nov 2008, at 16:40, Tres Seaver wrote:


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Hash: SHA1

Christian Zagrodnick wrote:

On 2008-11-12 23:41:55 +0100, Jim Fulton [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

http://download.zope.org/distribution was set up as a place to  
publish

distributions while we were learning about setuptools, eggs, and
pypi.  I think now, we're all using PyPI (or local repositories).   
I'd

like to deprecate this site, making it read-only for now, but
eventually removing it.


Yeah, make it read only. But I'd just leave it there. We have the
policy of not removing eggs which are out there, so I suggest leaving
the eggs there.


- -1:  many of the eggs that are there should never have been  
released at

all in a public repository:  they are attractive nuisances.

+1 for removing the bear trap ASAP.



Might be worth putting a takedown message in place of the files.

There are many incoming links

--r.

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Re: [Zope-dev] deprecate http://download.zope.org/distribution

2008-11-13 Thread Christian Theune
On Wed, 2008-11-12 at 17:41 -0500, Jim Fulton wrote:
 http://download.zope.org/distribution was set up as a place to publish  
 distributions while we were learning about setuptools, eggs, and  
 pypi.  I think now, we're all using PyPI (or local repositories).  I'd  
 like to deprecate this site, making it read-only for now, but  
 eventually removing it.

+1

-- 
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Re: [Zope-dev] deprecate http://download.zope.org/distribution

2008-11-12 Thread Hanno Schlichting
Jim Fulton wrote:
 http://download.zope.org/distribution was set up as a place to publish  
 distributions while we were learning about setuptools, eggs, and  
 pypi.  I think now, we're all using PyPI (or local repositories).  I'd  
 like to deprecate this site, making it read-only for now, but  
 eventually removing it.

+1

Hanno

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