Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain
From: Steve Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain If you're using ordered attributes, then you're not using XML. Indeed, and if your indentation is meaningful in your C source-code, you're not using C. However, that doesn't negate the benefit of a consistent coding style. Indentation style and the definition of XML are two different things. The XML spec clearly states that attributes are defined as unordered. So any XML editors or tool might rightfully reorder those attributes, thus mangling the meaning of any so-called XML code that depends on attribute order. Any so-called XML tool that depends on the order of attributes incorrect, and has a fundamental design flaw because it deviates from the agreed-upon standard. Just as any so-called C compiler that depends on indentation style is incorrect. -Don Reference: http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-infoset/ XML Information Set W3C Recommendation 24 October 2001 2. Information Items 2.2. Element Information Items An element information item has the following properties: 5. [attributes] An unordered set of attribute information items, one for each of the attributes (specified or defaulted from the DTD) of this element. Namespace declarations do not appear in this set. If the element has no attributes, this set has no members. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain
Don Hopkins wrote: Indentation style and the definition of XML are two different things. The XML spec clearly states that attributes are defined as unordered. So any XML editors or tool might rightfully reorder those attributes, thus mangling the meaning of any so-called XML code that depends on attribute order. Any so-called XML tool that depends on the order of attributes incorrect, and has a fundamental design flaw because it deviates from the agreed-upon standard. Just as any so-called C compiler that depends on indentation style is incorrect. ...which is precisely why the order of attributes in ZPT source code doesn't matter and why the order of execution of attributes is rigidly defined by ZPT, rather than being that of their order in the source. Anyone got a spare Dime Bar? Chris Reference: ...no one cares. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain
I believe what is trying to be explained is that ZPT provides a certain sequence for attribute *processing*, which begins *after* the template is parsed (like unordered keyword arguments in Python). How they are ordered in the source file is irrelevant, but by ordering them in the precise way they will be processed is recommended to aid in the understanding of what will happen. If you do see a concrete example of how and where this occurs that coincides with a breach from the XML spec, please post this to the list for us to see, so that the proper avenues of discussion, hacking, and problem resolution can be made. ZPT is nowhere near complete, and will surely tighten up with time. Regards, Eron On Thu, 2002-05-16 at 10:32, Don Hopkins wrote: From: Steve Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain If you're using ordered attributes, then you're not using XML. Indeed, and if your indentation is meaningful in your C source-code, you're not using C. However, that doesn't negate the benefit of a consistent coding style. Indentation style and the definition of XML are two different things. The XML spec clearly states that attributes are defined as unordered. So any XML editors or tool might rightfully reorder those attributes, thus mangling the meaning of any so-called XML code that depends on attribute order. Any so-called XML tool that depends on the order of attributes incorrect, and has a fundamental design flaw because it deviates from the agreed-upon standard. Just as any so-called C compiler that depends on indentation style is incorrect. -Don Reference: http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-infoset/ XML Information Set W3C Recommendation 24 October 2001 2. Information Items 2.2. Element Information Items An element information item has the following properties: 5. [attributes] An unordered set of attribute information items, one for each of the attributes (specified or defaulted from the DTD) of this element. Namespace declarations do not appear in this set. If the element has no attributes, this set has no members. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain
[Lots of Cc: deleted] My turn... So any XML editors or tool might rightfully reorder those attributes, thus mangling the meaning of any so-called XML code that depends on attribute order. The so-called XML code does *not* depend on attribute order. Any so-called XML tool that depends on the order of attributes incorrect, and has a fundamental design flaw because it deviates from the agreed-upon standard. The so-called XML code does *not* depend on attribute order. The so-called XML code evaluates attributes in a prespecified order, whatever the attribute order in the so-called XML code itself. Just as any so-called C compiler that depends on indentation style is incorrect. That's why it's so-called Python. ;^) -- Two witches watch two watches. Which witch watched which watch? Nicola Larosa - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain
Whereas XML attributes, order indeterminisim, slots, METAL and templates are? Adrian... - Original Message - From: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Marc Lindahl [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: zope-dev [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 8:15 PM Subject: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain Marc Lindahl wrote: Still I think the concept of TAL having some kind of 'stack' for condition results makes sense and is worth exploring... Could yield better logical constructs, and things like case statements. Sorry, but I don't see a 'stack' of any sort being easy to explain to a newbie or not programmer. cheers, Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain
Adrian Hungate wrote: Whereas XML attributes, order indeterminisim, ...Solved by making it absolutely clear what order stuff executes in. If I was training people, I'd tell them to write it in that order too... slots, METAL and templates are? This is all METAL. METAL is not as simple or robust as it could be, but you don't have to use it ;-) Still, once explained, most people seem to get it pretty quickly... cheers, Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain
From: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Adrian Hungate [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Marc Lindahl [EMAIL PROTECTED]; zope-dev [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 1:32 AM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain Adrian Hungate wrote: Whereas XML attributes, order indeterminisim, ...Solved by making it absolutely clear what order stuff executes in. If I was training people, I'd tell them to write it in that order too... You can't make the order of XML attribute execution clear, because they are defined as unordered. If you're using ordered attributes, then you're not using XML. -Don ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain
whatever... Don Hopkins wrote: From: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Adrian Hungate [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Marc Lindahl [EMAIL PROTECTED]; zope-dev [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 1:32 AM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain Adrian Hungate wrote: Whereas XML attributes, order indeterminisim, ...Solved by making it absolutely clear what order stuff executes in. If I was training people, I'd tell them to write it in that order too... You can't make the order of XML attribute execution clear, because they are defined as unordered. If you're using ordered attributes, then you're not using XML. -Don ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain
Adrian Hungate wrote: Whereas XML attributes, order indeterminisim, Chris Withers wrote: ...Solved by making it absolutely clear what order stuff executes in. If I was training people, I'd tell them to write it in that order too... Don Hopkins wrote: You can't make the order of XML attribute execution clear, because they are defined as unordered. If you're using ordered attributes, then you're not using XML. Indeed, and if your indentation is meaningful in your C source-code, you're not using C. However, that doesn't negate the benefit of a consistent coding style. -- Steve Alexander ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] stacks != easy to explain
Don Hopkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...Solved by making it absolutely clear what order stuff executes in. If I was training people, I'd tell them to write it in that order too... You can't make the order of XML attribute execution clear, because they are defined as unordered. If you're using ordered attributes, then you're not using XML. What Chris means (and it's specified in the TAL documentation) is that for instance define attributes are executed before repeat attributes. Of course we all know that XML attributes can be reorganized by any parser or whatever. This is not what is meant here. Florent -- Florent Guillaume, Nuxeo (Paris, France) +33 1 40 33 79 87 http://nuxeo.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
