Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-03-06 Thread Jim Fulton
On Mar 6, 2009, at 2:18 AM, Shane Hathaway wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: - It's not well enough documented. While I think there's merit in doing some things at the WSGI level, I remain pretty happy with the publication interface for separatating generic publisher functions from

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-03-06 Thread Shane Hathaway
Jim Fulton wrote: I'd rather leave zope.publsiher more or less alone, but develop a new thing that has the basic/core functionality we need and refactor zope.publisher to use that. I'd also like to use or be compatible with WebOb on that. I'd prefer to do this at PyCon where I'll have time

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-03-06 Thread Martijn Faassen
Hey, Jim Fulton wrote: [snip] I'd rather leave zope.publsiher more or less alone, but develop a new thing that has the basic/core functionality we need and refactor zope.publisher to use that. I had the impression Shane was doing that; i.e. building zope.pipeline factoring bits out of

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-03-06 Thread Tres Seaver
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Shane Hathaway wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: - It's not well enough documented. While I think there's merit in doing some things at the WSGI level, I remain pretty happy with the publication interface for separatating generic publisher functions

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-03-06 Thread Shane Hathaway
Martijn Faassen wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: [snip] I'd rather leave zope.publsiher more or less alone, but develop a new thing that has the basic/core functionality we need and refactor zope.publisher to use that. I had the impression Shane was doing that; i.e. building zope.pipeline

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-03-05 Thread Shane Hathaway
Jim Fulton wrote: - It's not well enough documented. While I think there's merit in doing some things at the WSGI level, I remain pretty happy with the publication interface for separatating generic publisher functions from application policies. I which the use of this API was better

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-03-01 Thread Jim Fulton
On Feb 24, 2009, at 12:59 PM, Shane Hathaway wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: I disagree strongly with many of the assertions made in these articles. (I can't judge the pipeline proposal, since it is only fleshed out in code.) While I do think zope.publisher has some problems, they aren't

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-25 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 08:46, Baiju M mba...@zeomega.net wrote: This will not make any change in dependency graph unless zope.location become a namespace package. Yeah, that was what I was thinking, but I just realized that it might be tricky to have both a zope.location and a

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Tres Seaver
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Shane Hathaway wrote: I've been working on the dependencies to and from zope.publisher. Refining the dependencies should make it easier to integrate zope.pipeline when it's ready. I've noticed that nearly all packages that depend on

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Jim Fulton
On Feb 24, 2009, at 3:08 AM, Shane Hathaway wrote: I've been working on the dependencies to and from zope.publisher. Refining the dependencies should make it easier to integrate zope.pipeline when it's ready. Can you elaborate on this a bit? I've noticed that nearly all packages that

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Jim Fulton
On Feb 24, 2009, at 9:26 AM, Tres Seaver wrote: ... As for TestRequest, I could update the setup.py of various packages that currently depend on zope.publisher just for TestRequest. I would make zope.publisher a test-only requirement. Frankly, any code using a testing stub which is

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Stephan Richter
On Tuesday 24 February 2009, Shane Hathaway wrote: I've noticed that nearly all packages that depend on zope.publisher depend only on a few pieces of it:    - zope.publisher.interfaces Can you give examples?    - zope.publisher.browser.Browser{View|Page}    -

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Tres Seaver
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jim Fulton wrote: On Feb 24, 2009, at 9:26 AM, Tres Seaver wrote: ... As for TestRequest, I could update the setup.py of various packages that currently depend on zope.publisher just for TestRequest. I would make zope.publisher a test-only

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Martijn Faassen
Hey Shane, +1 on separating out zope.publisher.interfaces, as it seems low-hanging fruit. Shane Hathaway wrote: It is less clear what we should do with BrowserView and BrowserPage. They depend on zope.location, unlike the rest of zope.publisher, so they don't really fit there. Perhaps

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Martijn Faassen
Jim Fulton wrote: On Feb 24, 2009, at 3:08 AM, Shane Hathaway wrote: I've been working on the dependencies to and from zope.publisher. Refining the dependencies should make it easier to integrate zope.pipeline when it's ready. Can you elaborate on this a bit? He has, though perhaps not

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Jim Fulton
On Feb 24, 2009, at 11:12 AM, Tres Seaver wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jim Fulton wrote: On Feb 24, 2009, at 9:26 AM, Tres Seaver wrote: ... As for TestRequest, I could update the setup.py of various packages that currently depend on zope.publisher just for

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Stephan Richter
On Tuesday 24 February 2009, Jim Fulton wrote: - - Using TestRequest involves pulling in all of zope.publisher, a   *big*  dependency;  Shane wants to reduce such dependencies. OK, I don't agree that zope.publisher is a big dependency, especially   for code that is meant to run in the

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Stephan Richter
On Tuesday 24 February 2009, Martijn Faassen wrote: Packages that depend on those classes usually more or less implicitly depend on zope.publisher. So the split might be arbitrary for this example. My understanding is that Shane is working on an alternative publisher, zope.pipeline, that

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Hanno Schlichting
Jim Fulton wrote: On Feb 24, 2009, at 11:12 AM, Tres Seaver wrote: - - Using TestRequest involves pulling in all of zope.publisher, a *big* dependency; Shane wants to reduce such dependencies. OK, I don't agree that zope.publisher is a big dependency, especially for code that is

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Jim Fulton
On Feb 24, 2009, at 11:46 AM, Martijn Faassen wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: On Feb 24, 2009, at 3:08 AM, Shane Hathaway wrote: I've been working on the dependencies to and from zope.publisher. Refining the dependencies should make it easier to integrate zope.pipeline when it's ready. Can you

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Shane Hathaway
Jim Fulton wrote: On Feb 24, 2009, at 3:08 AM, Shane Hathaway wrote: I've been working on the dependencies to and from zope.publisher. Refining the dependencies should make it easier to integrate zope.pipeline when it's ready. Can you elaborate on this a bit? I've been discussing

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Martijn Faassen
Hey, On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Stephan Richter srich...@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu wrote: In general I am worried that we are creating too many packages. However, here is my order of importance: 1. Minimize dependencies. 2. Minimize packages. +1 I think on the longer term better

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Shane Hathaway
Jim Fulton wrote: I disagree strongly with many of the assertions made in these articles. (I can't judge the pipeline proposal, since it is only fleshed out in code.) While I do think zope.publisher has some problems, they aren't the same problems that shane sees. What are the problems

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Martijn Faassen
Hi there, Hanno Schlichting wrote: [snip] P.S. See http://hannosch.eu/dependencies/zope/zope.publisher.svg for the dependency graph ;) That's a cool resource! (the general dependencies folder there) Are you removing indirect dependencies before generating the graphs? I think it is valuable

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Martijn Faassen
Hey, Shane Hathaway wrote: [snip] After thinking this over last night, I realize that the idea to move BrowserView, BrowserPage, and TestRequest is driven by the desire to clarify the dependency graph. That's more complex than what I'm trying to do and I don't think I need to do that for

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Hanno Schlichting
Martijn Faassen wrote: Hanno Schlichting wrote: [snip] P.S. See http://hannosch.eu/dependencies/zope/zope.publisher.svg for the dependency graph ;) That's a cool resource! (the general dependencies folder there) Are you removing indirect dependencies before generating the graphs? Yep.

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Jim Fulton
On Feb 24, 2009, at 12:33 PM, Hanno Schlichting wrote: P.S. See http://hannosch.eu/dependencies/zope/zope.publisher.svg for the dependency graph ;) That's cool, although wildly inaccurate. One of the things wrong with zope.publisher is that it depends on too many other things. It would

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Shane Hathaway
Martijn Faassen wrote: The main problem I have with the zope publication machinery is that after all these years of using it I *still* get lost in it regularly. A more regular architecture that can be traced more easily would not only allow better understanding on my part, but might also allow

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Jim Fulton
On Feb 24, 2009, at 12:44 PM, Shane Hathaway wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: On Feb 24, 2009, at 3:08 AM, Shane Hathaway wrote: I've been working on the dependencies to and from zope.publisher. Refining the dependencies should make it easier to integrate zope.pipeline when it's ready. Can you

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Jim Fulton
On Feb 24, 2009, at 1:55 PM, Shane Hathaway wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: The main problem I have with the zope publication machinery is that after all these years of using it I *still* get lost in it regularly. A more regular architecture that can be traced more easily would not only allow

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Shane Hathaway
Jim Fulton wrote: Maybe, but I find that people confuse the machinery in zope.publisher with a bunch of additional and very confusing machinery in various zope.app packages. The publisher itself is pretty simple. I think this is illustrated by paste.txt in the zope.publisher package.

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Martijn Faassen
Jim Fulton wrote: On Feb 24, 2009, at 12:33 PM, Hanno Schlichting wrote: P.S. See http://hannosch.eu/dependencies/zope/zope.publisher.svg for the dependency graph ;) That's cool, although wildly inaccurate. What's wildly inaccurate about it? Missing transitive dependencies or

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Jim Fulton
On Feb 24, 2009, at 5:19 PM, Martijn Faassen wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: On Feb 24, 2009, at 12:33 PM, Hanno Schlichting wrote: P.S. See http://hannosch.eu/dependencies/zope/zope.publisher.svg for the dependency graph ;) That's cool, although wildly inaccurate. What's wildly inaccurate

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Martijn Faassen
Hey, On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 11:26 PM, Jim Fulton j...@zope.com wrote: [snip] The graph only shows direct dependencies on zope.i18n and zope.security, but there are many other direct dependencies. Ah, agreed, yes, I think this is because of the transitive dependency functionality removal

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Hanno Schlichting
Martijn Faassen wrote: Hanno, would you consider also generating graphs for the grokcore.* packages? Can you point me to a buildout or virtualenv-friendly way of getting an environment with those? Than it should be rather trivial to do for me. Hanno

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Shane Hathaway
Martijn Faassen wrote: Hey, On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 11:26 PM, Jim Fulton j...@zope.com wrote: [snip] The graph only shows direct dependencies on zope.i18n and zope.security, but there are many other direct dependencies. Ah, agreed, yes, I think this is because of the transitive

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Shane Hathaway
Stephan Richter wrote: On Tuesday 24 February 2009, Shane Hathaway wrote: Brainstorming deeper: we could apply a naming convention where the specification package is named with the suffix spec, so zope.location would be split into zope.location and zope.locationspec. what about

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 04:05, Shane Hathaway sh...@hathawaymix.org wrote: Stephan Richter wrote: On Tuesday 24 February 2009, Shane Hathaway wrote: Brainstorming deeper: we could apply a naming convention where the specification package is named with the suffix spec, so zope.location would

Re: [Zope-dev] zope.publisher dependencies

2009-02-24 Thread Baiju M
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 04:05, Shane Hathaway sh...@hathawaymix.org wrote: Stephan Richter wrote: On Tuesday 24 February 2009, Shane Hathaway wrote: Brainstorming deeper: we could apply a naming convention where the