Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-14 Thread Lennart Regebro
On 3/14/06, Sidnei da Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That is, to me, a very important feature. To be able to write some python module that does not depend on Zope 3 at import time, but is 'hooked into' Zope 3 externally, with ZCML, at 'configuration time'. Why is that important? In most cases

[Zope3-dev] Re: a new zcml directive?

2006-03-14 Thread Lennart Regebro
On 3/14/06, Philipp von Weitershausen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That doesn't look like configuration. No, it's an on/off switch. Me likesss it. OK, I´m +1 now, after some thinking. :-) -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-14 Thread Lennart Regebro
OK, I just think I had a sort of brainwave-thingy, so I'm going to lay it out here to see if it was a good brainwave or not: Currently I can see three useful uses of ZCML: 1. User interface configurations, that is, everything that goes under browser. Menus, pages, forms, that sort of thing.

Re: [Zope3-dev] RFC: Use ConfigParser for High-Level Configuration

2006-03-14 Thread Chris Withers
Stuart Bishop wrote: the Z3 configuration. This was with Zope 3.0 and integrating our config with the Z3 config was quite problematic. What were the problematic bits? We lost a fair bit of flexibility doing it this way. Field validation needs to be done the ZConfig way. How would you

Re: [Zope3-dev] RFC: Use ConfigParser for High-Level Configuration

2006-03-14 Thread Jim Fulton
Chris Withers wrote: Stuart Bishop wrote: the Z3 configuration. This was with Zope 3.0 and integrating our config with the Z3 config was quite problematic. What were the problematic bits? We lost a fair bit of flexibility doing it this way. Field validation needs to be done the ZConfig

Re: [Zope3-dev] RFC: Use ConfigParser for High-Level Configuration

2006-03-14 Thread Andreas Jung
--On 14. März 2006 06:23:33 -0500 Jim Fulton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Budding in: It would be nice to be able to use Zope schema for conversion and validation. ZConfig was developed at around the same time as Zope schema. The ZConfig developers fealt they couldn't wait and reuse the work

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: a new zcml directive?

2006-03-14 Thread Jim Fulton
Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: Marius Gedminas wrote: I'd prefer from zope.annotation.adapter import AnnotationAdapter getFoo = AnnotationAdapter(for_=IBar, interface=IFoo, factory=Foo,

Re: [Zope3-dev] RFC: Use ConfigParser for High-Level Configuration

2006-03-14 Thread Stephan Richter
On Tuesday 14 March 2006 06:29, Andreas Jung wrote: Could you please explain how zope.schema would deal with hierarchies? As I mentioned earlier the file format is uninteresting at this point. Having an easy and flexible framework for defining a configuration schema should be the goal and I

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-14 Thread Jim Fulton
Martijn Faassen wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: [snip] as configuration in Python code is more flexible and packages can form a more self-contained whole. Wrong! This is an important point. No one in the know is proposing using Python for configuration. Python is for

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-14 Thread Jean-Marc Orliaguet
Jim Fulton wrote: Yup. BTW, a general thing to keep in mind: - Indirection and abstraction are inherently bad because they hide things. :) (This is a corolary of explicit is better than implicit.) - But indirection and abstraction can provide benefits that outweight their inherent

Re: [Zope3-dev] RFC: Use ConfigParser for High-Level Configuration

2006-03-14 Thread Andreas Jung
--On 14. März 2006 07:27:54 -0500 Jim Fulton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have used schemas multiple times to represent hierarchies, most recently in the zf.zscp work, where I parse XML files using a schema or a set thereof. You simply use the Object field to connect a sub-schema to a

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-14 Thread Jim Fulton
Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: Yup. BTW, a general thing to keep in mind: - Indirection and abstraction are inherently bad because they hide things. :) (This is a corolary of explicit is better than implicit.) - But indirection and abstraction can provide benefits that

[Zope3-dev] Re: SVN: Zope3/branches/jim-adapter/src/zope/ Redeprecated a number of things that didn't generate warnings

2006-03-14 Thread Jim Fulton
Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: Log message for revision 65931: Redeprecated a number of things that didn't generate warnings before. Sigh. Also fixed all the depecation warnings generated by running the zope.component tests. ... Added:

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-14 Thread Jean-Marc Orliaguet
Jim Fulton wrote: Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: Yup. BTW, a general thing to keep in mind: - Indirection and abstraction are inherently bad because they hide things. :) (This is a corolary of explicit is better than implicit.) - But indirection and abstraction can

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: SVN: Zope3/branches/jim-adapter/src/zope/ Redeprecated a number of things that didn't generate warnings

2006-03-14 Thread Stephan Richter
On Tuesday 14 March 2006 10:26, Jim Fulton wrote: This is going to take quite a bit of work to sort out. If someone else wants to try and sort this out, I'm willing to suspend work on my adapter branch until it's done. I guess it would be better to work on your branch, since you get the

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-14 Thread Jim Fulton
Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: Yup. BTW, a general thing to keep in mind: - Indirection and abstraction are inherently bad because they hide things. :) (This is a corolary of explicit is better than implicit.) - But

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: SVN: Zope3/branches/jim-adapter/src/zope/ Redeprecated a number of things that didn't generate warnings

2006-03-14 Thread Jim Fulton
Stephan Richter wrote: On Tuesday 14 March 2006 10:26, Jim Fulton wrote: This is going to take quite a bit of work to sort out. If someone else wants to try and sort this out, I'm willing to suspend work on my adapter branch until it's done. I guess it would be better to work on your

[Zope3-dev] Locale definitions

2006-03-14 Thread Christian Theune
Hi, can somebody tell me where the locale definitions come from? The de_DE definition for currency always includes a weird symbol that might want to be a Euro symbol. However, there is no option to get a price formatted as a reasonable number without this broken symbol ... Christian -- gocept

[Zope3-dev] Re: RFC: Use ConfigParser for High-Level Configuration

2006-03-14 Thread Laurence Rowe
I know that everyone here in pythonland seems to hate xml, it may not be pretty, but we have to use it for at least some things anyway. We probably all spend quite a bit of our time writing xhtml, why not just standardize on one format. Please, I don't want to learn any more configuration

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: RFC: Use ConfigParser for High-Level Configuration

2006-03-14 Thread Andreas Jung
--On 14. März 2006 17:17:12 + Laurence Rowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know that everyone here in pythonland seems to hate xml, Nothing but a stupid rumor :-) it may not be pretty, but we have to use it for at least some things anyway. We probably all spend quite a bit of our time

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-14 Thread Dieter Maurer
Roger Ineichen wrote at 2006-3-13 21:57 +0100: ... I think ZCML is defently not configuration in the clasic understanding of configuration. Defining directives in ZCML means we bind components together to a application. If developer share this configuration layer with admins and use it for tasks

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-14 Thread Dieter Maurer
Sidnei da Silva wrote at 2006-3-13 20:21 -0300: ... That is, to me, a very important feature. To be able to write some python module that does not depend on Zope 3 at import time, but is 'hooked into' Zope 3 externally, with ZCML, at 'configuration time'. As I understand, no other framework out

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-14 Thread Dieter Maurer
Jim Fulton wrote at 2006-3-14 07:23 -0500: ... * Setting up the indexes in a catalog. definition Really? I would consider it configuration -- even high level configuration. ... BTW, a general thing to keep in mind: - Indirection and abstraction are inherently bad because they hide

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-14 Thread Dieter Maurer
Lennart Regebro wrote at 2006-3-14 09:19 +0100: On 3/14/06, Sidnei da Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That is, to me, a very important feature. To be able to write some python module that does not depend on Zope 3 at import time, but is 'hooked into' Zope 3 externally, with ZCML, at

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-14 Thread Lennart Regebro
On 3/14/06, Dieter Maurer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why is that important? In most cases you would have to write interfaces for the non-z3 python objects. Assuming you don't actually write them, but cheat and just mark them, you can get away with this, sure. But is it really that hard to write

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-14 Thread Lennart Regebro
On 3/14/06, Dieter Maurer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Aspect orientation does this: Use a given unprepared implementation and add all kinds of aspects to them: logging, tracing, persistence, additional checks Yeah. And that aspect orientation is in Zope3 done in ZCML... So I don't

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-14 Thread Jean-Marc Orliaguet
Jim Fulton wrote: Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote: I was refering to high-level ZCML, such browser:page, browser:menu, etc vs low-level directives like adapter. Jim I would say that they paraphrase more lines of code than the low-level ones, but they fundamentally add no extremely valuable

Re: [Zope3-dev] Locale definitions

2006-03-14 Thread Stephan Richter
On Tuesday 14 March 2006 12:20, Christian Theune wrote: The de_DE definition for currency always includes a weird symbol that might want to be a Euro symbol. However, there is no option to get a price formatted as a reasonable number without this broken symbol ... The data comes from the

Re: [Zope3-dev] Locale definitions

2006-03-14 Thread Christian Theune
On Tue, 2006-03-14 at 16:18 -0500, Stephan Richter wrote: On Tuesday 14 March 2006 12:20, Christian Theune wrote: The de_DE definition for currency always includes a weird symbol that might want to be a Euro symbol. However, there is no option to get a price formatted as a reasonable number

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-14 Thread Shane Hathaway
Dieter Maurer wrote: Jim Fulton wrote at 2006-3-14 07:23 -0500: - Indirection and abstraction are inherently bad because they hide things. :) (This is a corolary of explicit is better than implicit.) I do not agree with this (but I also do not agree with explicit is better tham implicit --

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-14 Thread Jim Fulton
Shane Hathaway wrote: Dieter Maurer wrote: Jim Fulton wrote at 2006-3-14 07:23 -0500: - Indirection and abstraction are inherently bad because they hide things. :) (This is a corolary of explicit is better than implicit.) I do not agree with this (but I also do not agree with explicit

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-14 Thread Jean-Marc Orliaguet
Jim Fulton wrote: Shane Hathaway wrote: +1. When I learn a skill, it is at first completely explicit, and as the skill becomes predictable and reliable, it gradually becomes implicit. If I kept everything explicit, I would hinder myself from building higher level skills. So explicit

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-14 Thread Stephan Richter
On Tuesday 14 March 2006 16:44, Jim Fulton wrote: I stand by my argument that indirection and abstraction are bad.  Of course, they are often also good.  They should be used when the good significantly outweighs the bad. Too often though, people don't realize that indirection and abstraction

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-14 Thread Shane Hathaway
Jim Fulton wrote: Shane Hathaway wrote: +1. When I learn a skill, it is at first completely explicit, and as the skill becomes predictable and reliable, it gradually becomes implicit. If I kept everything explicit, I would hinder myself from building higher level skills. So explicit is

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-14 Thread Jean-Marc Orliaguet
Zachery Bir wrote: On Mar 14, 2006, at 4:31 PM, Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote: which is strictly equivalent to Implicit is better than explicit, except when it's not. :-) and when it's not ... explicit is better. Clearly arbitraritude is better than claritization, except when it is. Or

[Zope3-dev] Re: SVN: Zope3/branches/jim-adapter/src/zope/ Redeprecated a number of things that didn't generate warnings

2006-03-14 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Jim Fulton wrote: I didn't see evidence of deprecation warnings. These methods didn't generate warnings. The code: from bbb import * or from bbb import x, y, ..., is, sadly, quite common and generates no warnings. The import doesn't, but the use of each method did because they

[Zope3-dev] Re: Zope Eggs

2006-03-14 Thread Tres Seaver
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Nathan R. Yergler wrote: During the Zope3 sprint following PyCon, Paul and I, with Jim's guidance, began work on exploring how Zope can utilize eggs and be packaged using eggs. Since we're still experimenting with how eggs will be used, I wrote

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: SVN: Zope3/branches/jim-adapter/src/zope/ Redeprecated a number of things that didn't generate warnings

2006-03-14 Thread Stephan Richter
On Tuesday 14 March 2006 17:26, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: The import doesn't, but the use of each method did because they looked like this: def getView(object, name, request, providing=Interface, context=None):     if __warn__:         warnings.warn(             The concrete concept

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: SVN: Zope3/branches/jim-adapter/src/zope/ Redeprecated a number of things that didn't generate warnings

2006-03-14 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Stephan Richter wrote: On Tuesday 14 March 2006 17:26, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: The import doesn't, but the use of each method did because they looked like this: def getView(object, name, request, providing=Interface, context=None): if __warn__: warnings.warn(