Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Zope Eggs

2006-03-15 Thread Jim Fulton
Tres Seaver wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Nathan R. Yergler wrote: During the Zope3 sprint following PyCon, Paul and I, with Jim's guidance, began work on exploring how Zope can utilize eggs and be packaged using eggs. Since we're still experimenting with how eggs

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-15 Thread Martijn Faassen
Shane Hathaway wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: Shane Hathaway wrote: +1. When I learn a skill, it is at first completely explicit, and as the skill becomes predictable and reliable, it gradually becomes implicit. If I kept everything explicit, I would hinder myself from building higher level

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: SVN: Zope3/branches/jim-adapter/src/zope/ Redeprecated a number of things that didn't generate warnings

2006-03-15 Thread Jim Fulton
Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: Stephan Richter wrote: On Tuesday 14 March 2006 17:26, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: The import doesn't, but the use of each method did because they looked like this: def getView(object, name, request, providing=Interface, context=None): if __warn__:

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-15 Thread Jim Fulton
Martijn Faassen wrote: Shane Hathaway wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: Shane Hathaway wrote: +1. When I learn a skill, it is at first completely explicit, and as the skill becomes predictable and reliable, it gradually becomes implicit. If I kept everything explicit, I would hinder myself from

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Zope Eggs

2006-03-15 Thread Nathan R. Yergler
Agreed. IMO, we should either not scrible on setuop.cfg or not check it in. I vote for not scribbling on it. So right now we scribble the development dependencies as well as path (lib, script, etc) information into setup.cfg. The develop.py script reads the dependency information and attempts

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-15 Thread Martijn Faassen
Jim Fulton wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: [snip] I appreciated you making it explicit, Shane, even though I already knew and fully agree. :) I sometimes express this principle as magic is bad unless it's perfect magic. Do post it on your blog. Yes, it is a good thing to know, except that

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-15 Thread Lennart Regebro
On 3/14/06, Lennart Regebro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, I just think I had a sort of brainwave-thingy, so I'm going to lay it out here to see if it was a good brainwave or not: Currently I can see three useful uses of ZCML: 1. User interface configurations, that is, everything that goes

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: a new zcml directive?

2006-03-15 Thread Martijn Faassen
Jim Fulton wrote: Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: Marius Gedminas wrote: I'd prefer from zope.annotation.adapter import AnnotationAdapter getFoo = AnnotationAdapter(for_=IBar, interface=IFoo, factory=Foo,

[Zope3-dev] Internal architecture or ZopeX3

2006-03-15 Thread Reinhold Strobl
Hi, because I hope I find ZopeX3 gurus in that forum, I'd like to know if there exists some documents on the internal structure /architecture of zope. I mean, I am looking for example for graphs like

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: a new zcml directive?

2006-03-15 Thread Jim Fulton
Martijn Faassen wrote: ... I just tried to write AnnotationAdapter. Unfortunately, I haven't gotten very far yet, as it turns out I need to understand the internals of the implementation of the zope:adapter ZCML statement. No, you don't. zope:adapter has a bunch of automation to look for the

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-15 Thread Jim Fulton
Martijn Faassen wrote: ... I suspect we're in a state of violent agreement here. :) Then why do people have to argue every single point ad nauseum? Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org

[Zope3-dev] Course-grained reuse.

2006-03-15 Thread Jim Fulton
Martijn Faassen wrote: ... One form of abstraction I'm still grasping for in Zope 3 is support for coarse-grained components. When I have a whole bunch of (local) utilities, content objects, views, permissions and the like that work together, tied together with quite a bit of ZCML, I'd like to

Re: [Zope3-dev] Course-grained reuse.

2006-03-15 Thread Stephan Richter
On Wednesday 15 March 2006 10:57, Jim Fulton wrote: It's possible that the new registration machinery will help (if I every find time to finish it).  For example, perhaps you could define an assembly in a ZCML file and use that assembly as a base for one or more sites. I am waiting for the

[Zope3-dev] Re: what is ZCML?

2006-03-15 Thread Tres Seaver
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jim Fulton wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: Shane Hathaway wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: Shane Hathaway wrote: +1. When I learn a skill, it is at first completely explicit, and as the skill becomes predictable and reliable, it gradually becomes

[Zope3-dev] Re: Zope Eggs

2006-03-15 Thread Tres Seaver
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jim Fulton wrote: Tres Seaver wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Nathan R. Yergler wrote: During the Zope3 sprint following PyCon, Paul and I, with Jim's guidance, began work on exploring how Zope can utilize eggs and be

[Zope3-dev] Re: Coarse-grained reuse.

2006-03-15 Thread Martijn Faassen
Jim Fulton wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: ... [coarse grained component reuse] Are there patterns to do this in current Zope 3? Part of the problem is a dependency on local utilities - I believe the new local utility registration API you're working on should help there. For the rest, I guess I

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: a new zcml directive?

2006-03-15 Thread Martijn Faassen
Jim Fulton wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: ... I just tried to write AnnotationAdapter. Unfortunately, I haven't gotten very far yet, as it turns out I need to understand the internals of the implementation of the zope:adapter ZCML statement. No, you don't. zope:adapter has a bunch of

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: a new zcml directive?

2006-03-15 Thread Jim Fulton
Martijn Faassen wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: ... If a factory is not a class, and if it allows attributes to be set on it, then the interface.implementor function can be used to make declarations for it. This is documeted in zope/interfaces/README.txt and zope/component/README.txt.

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: a new zcml directive?

2006-03-15 Thread Martijn Faassen
Jim Fulton wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: This is one bit I was missing, thanks. Unfortunately I read in zope/interface/README.txt that the 'implementer' function cannot be used for classes yet, so this will change the design somewhat (I was using __call__, looks like

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: a new zcml directive?

2006-03-15 Thread Jim Fulton
Martijn Faassen wrote: ... Then this and the __component_adapts__ hack should be enough to make it work (still an unpleasant hack, that). Huh? Use adapter. class FactoryFactory: def __init__(self): # initialize a new factory ... implementer(self,

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: a new zcml directive?

2006-03-15 Thread Martijn Faassen
Jim Fulton wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: ... Then this and the __component_adapts__ hack should be enough to make it work (still an unpleasant hack, that). Huh? Use adapter. class FactoryFactory: def __init__(self): # initialize a new factory ...

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-15 Thread Shane Hathaway
Jim Fulton wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: ... I suspect we're in a state of violent agreement here. :) Then why do people have to argue every single point ad nauseum? Because we want to understand the current decisions and thinking. I never intend to argue, but email is such a poor

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: a new zcml directive?

2006-03-15 Thread Jeff Shell
On 3/15/06, Martijn Faassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the new world for ZCML, ZCML as a language falls apart in a minimalistic XML language, and some support code (such as zope.app.annotation.AnnotationFactory) to help it do more advanced things. That's what I'd like to see! :) One

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-15 Thread Jim Fulton
Shane Hathaway wrote: ... Back on topic, the message I'm hearing about ZCML is confusing: That's because we don't all agree. high level configuration is good, but ZCML isn't going to handle it because we want to limit the number of directives. Does that mean we're going to use Python

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-15 Thread Jean-Marc Orliaguet
Jim Fulton wrote: I'd also like to acknowledge Tres' point about high-level non-Python definition mechanisms for things like forms and schemas. I agree with him that such facilities could be a good thing. I may disagree with him on whether these should be ZCML. I definately don't think that

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-15 Thread Shane Hathaway
Jim Fulton wrote: Finally, I'll note that I've used the term high-level configuration to refer to the things we have sysadmins edit when they install Zope systems. We currently use ZConfig for this. I don't think ZCML (or any other XML-based system) should be used for this. Ok. The

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-15 Thread Dieter Maurer
Lennart Regebro wrote at 2006-3-14 21:17 +0100: On 3/14/06, Dieter Maurer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Aspect orientation does this: Use a given unprepared implementation and add all kinds of aspects to them: logging, tracing, persistence, additional checks Yeah. And that aspect

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-15 Thread Dieter Maurer
Jim Fulton wrote at 2006-3-15 07:29 -0500: ... Magic always has the downside that it hides things. Often, as in the case of garbage collection, the benefit outweighs the cost. Too often though, people introduce magic (aka abstraction, indirection, automation) when the benefit doesn't justify

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-15 Thread Jim Fulton
Shane Hathaway wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: Finally, I'll note that I've used the term high-level configuration to refer to the things we have sysadmins edit when they install Zope systems. We currently use ZConfig for this. I don't think ZCML (or any other XML-based system) should be used for

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: what is ZCML?

2006-03-15 Thread Jeff Shell
On 3/15/06, Tres Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wonder if there isn't a sore spot which is driving a lot of the discussion here, but isn't being mentioned: the experiment in form definition (browser:addform / browser:editform). The interesting thing about that experiment is that it

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-15 Thread Shane Hathaway
Jim Fulton wrote: Shane Hathaway wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: Finally, I'll note that I've used the term high-level configuration to refer to the things we have sysadmins edit when they install Zope systems. We currently use ZConfig for this. I don't think ZCML (or any other XML-based system)

Re: [Zope3-dev] what is ZCML?

2006-03-15 Thread Lennart Regebro
On 3/15/06, Dieter Maurer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I reject Sidnei's claim Zope3 were unique in this respect (apart from using ZCML, of course) :-) I think that amongst web app frameworks we are. I don't know of any other aspect oriented ones. I could be wrong. -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Coarse-grained reuse.

2006-03-15 Thread Jeff Shell
On 3/15/06, Martijn Faassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: - We don't have a good way for installing collections of local components that work together. For our projects, we've used the generation machinery to automate this, but that only works if you want to install things

Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: a new zcml directive?

2006-03-15 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Martijn Faassen wrote: I stand by my conclusions on this approach sounding simple in theory, but still being a bit harder than it should be in practice. :) I think this is pretty simple: def makeAnnotationAdapter(for_, factory, key): @zope.component.adapter(for_)