[Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
Martijn Faassen wrote: Just to drop a note that I think a discussion about a potential brand name for Zope 3 is far less important than actually fixing our website and presenting Zope 3 (and Zope 2 for that matter) in a better way. Perhaps we can better redirect our energies to that than to have long (but easy, as everybody can say something without having to do anything) discussions about something that in the end isn't going to matter that much. Yes, thank you :). Now I don't have to catch up with this insanely long thread. Zope 3 already has a recognized brand as a rewrite of Zope 2 in the community - let's go with that. Indeed. Plus, I strongly feel that pushing Zope 3 more than Zope 2 or viceversa isn't helping. We need to push Zope-the-technology and Zope-the-community. Branding Zope 3 and making it look like something separate now when Zope 2 is actually moving towards Zope 3 feels like a step back. Let's promote Zope. Philipp ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
On Feb 11, 2006, at 11:48 PM, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: [...] Indeed. Plus, I strongly feel that pushing Zope 3 more than Zope 2 or viceversa isn't helping. We need to push Zope-the-technology and Zope-the-community. Branding Zope 3 and making it look like something separate now when Zope 2 is actually moving towards Zope 3 feels like a step back. Let's promote Zope. Unfortunately, very few of us appear to agree on what Zope 3 is, let alone what Zope is. Gary ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
Gary Poster wrote: On Feb 11, 2006, at 11:48 PM, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: [...] Indeed. Plus, I strongly feel that pushing Zope 3 more than Zope 2 or viceversa isn't helping. We need to push Zope-the-technology and Zope-the-community. Branding Zope 3 and making it look like something separate now when Zope 2 is actually moving towards Zope 3 feels like a step back. Let's promote Zope. Unfortunately, very few of us appear to agree on what Zope 3 is, let alone what Zope is. What does Jim say Zope and Zope 3 are? Shane ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
Shane Hathaway wrote: Alexander Limi wrote: +1. Zope^3 is visually interesting enough, and geeky enough. While procrastinating Real Work, I played with a logo based on this idea. It's very rough--a more refined version would probably eliminate the 3D effects. But it's something to talk about, anyway. It has a cube-Z instead of a circle-Z, it has color, and it has the cool caret. I've attached it. Apropros procrastinating. Here is another quick take. The cube is implied by the two squares. -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science attachment: zope-3-cubed.jpg ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
Alexander Limi wrote: On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 00:32:52 -0800, Martin Aspeli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Like it or not, Zope (2) seems to have a lot of stigma out there; Zope 3 has been around a while. In actual fact, for a while I thought Zope 3.x was still just unfinished vapourware, waiting for the fabled Zope2 integration (the dropping of the X) that people were talking about. The way it was done was also incredibly unprofessional and created a lot of confusion: Quoting from http://www.zope.org/DevHome/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/Zope320: It is our opinion that Zope 3 is more than ready for production use, which is why we decided to drop the X for experimental from the name. Problem is, the X was never about whether Zope was ready for production use - it had been *explicitly assigned* as a marker that meant Zope 2 migration/support was not there yet. A lot of people actually believed this would happen (as the Zope roadmap and PR spiel told them so), even though all of us knew it wouldn't happen. (I know the reasons, I know the plans for convergence, I know how Five works - I'm just pointing out that this part made a lot of people lose faith in Zope) I'll defend myself, as I was the one who argued for dropping that X. Let me first give the full context of that quote; perhaps it wasn't in the Zope 3.2 release notes, but it was there in Zope 3.1: It is in our opinion that Zope 3.1 is more than ready for production use, which is why we decided to drop the X for experimental from the name. We will also continue to work on making the transition between Zope 2 and Zope 3 as smooth as possible. As a first step, Zope 2.8 includes Zope 3 features in the form of Five. I think that the full context rather weakens your suggestion that this done in an incredibly unprofessional way. Now as to history of that X. From an old document about security when it was still X3, not 3X: 1b. Zope 3X is the preliminary version of Zope 3. It is built from the ground up, paying attention to the lessons learned from Zope 2 and CMF. It is not a product but intended to let developers get familiar with the new architecture early. 1c. Zope 3 is the mainline release intended for production use and including backwards compatibility to Zope 2. I hope that this makes clear that you are wrong about the X never having anything to do with production use; it was connected. This is what was said back in 2003 in the release note for a milestone release: What is Zope X3? It's Zope 3 experimental. This is the release that will provide the new features of Zope 3 without any Zope 2 support. Zope 3.0 will provide support for Zope 2 content and products, probably using conversion utilities of some sort. For the X3 beta, the message was presented as such: Zope X3 is the next major Zope release and has been written from scratch based on the latest software design patterns and the experiences of Zope 2. The X in the name stands for experimental, since this release does not try to provide any backward-compatibility to Zope 2. with the subtle difference that we couldn't ever say Zope 3 was non experimental *unless* it has Zope 2 compatibility features. The main problem with the X was that everybody has their own interpretation for what it means. None of the interpretations was entirely wrong, or right: * 'X' stands for 'eXperimental'. * The 'X' will be dropped when Zope 3 is ready for production use. * We drop the X when we have backwards compatibility with Zope 2 in Zope 3. * We drop the X when there's migration support for Zope 2 content to Zope 3. * We drop the X when there's a migration path to Zope 3 from Zope 2. Zope 3.2 today is not experimental. It is ready for production use. Full backwards compatibility with Zope 2 isn't going to appear; *full* compatibility was never exactly promised, but people got that impression from the vague message, but we knew damn well by Zope 3.1 that it wasn't going to happen that way. It's hard to predict the future anyway. A migration path for generic Zope 2 content also isn't likely to appear, as that means you have to port your applications forward first if your application has its own content types, which most significant Zope 2 applications do. It will presumably happen for particular Zope 2 applications who are prepared (Silva for instance has had full XML export abilities for years), but not for arbitrary Zope 2 content. Additionally, the version numbering scheme with an X in it (it even moved; Zope X3, Zope 3X) is non-standard and thus *invites* misinterpretation in all kinds of ways. And then after you drop the X from Zope X3.4, you're going to go back and call it Zope 3.0? I therefore argued for dropping the X. The X was broken and was doing damage. I'm not going to be able to sell experimental software not ready for production use to my customers. Better correct the message now
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 03:16:22 -0800, Martijn Faassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zope X3 is the next major Zope release and has been written from scratch based on the latest software design patterns and the experiences of Zope 2. The X in the name stands for experimental, since this release does not try to provide any backward-compatibility to Zope 2. with the subtle difference that we couldn't ever say Zope 3 was non experimental *unless* it has Zope 2 compatibility features. This is the one I (and several others) read and the one I saw interpreted on websites. Hence the confusion. Now let's forget about that damn X. It's history. Yup, thanks for providing the full view. The complexity of your post further reinforces how confusing the situation is, even to an almost-insider. -- _ Alexander Limi · Chief Architect · Plone Solutions · Norway Consulting · Training · Development · http://www.plonesolutions.com _ Plone Co-Founder · http://plone.org · Connecting Content Plone Foundation · http://plone.org/foundation · Protecting Plone ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
On Tue, Feb 07, 2006 at 03:37:45PM -0700, Shane Hathaway wrote: Alexander Limi wrote: The original discussion never suggested code names for releases, but a brand name to help Zope 3 separate itself from Zope 2 - since it is a *completely* different beast. Random thought... hehe... Zope Cubed. It's only a typographical change from Zope 3. The tagline would be Zope, raised to a higher power! It's a vague reference to cubicles, where enterprise developers usually work. It's also a vague reference to Cubism, which lets the viewer see many perspectives from a single viewpoint, like Zope 3, which lets the developer accomplish many objectives using a single framework. :-) This sloagan pops up in my mind: Zope^3 - Think out of the box! -- __ Nothing is as subjective as reality Reinoud van Leeuwen[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.xs4all.nl/~reinoud __ ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 00:59 -0500, Fred Drake wrote: So why not say it's about XP and make it Zope XP 3.x.y? It sounds too much 'Windows XP' like for my taste. Alen ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
On Feb 7, 2006, at 5:19 AM, Stephan Richter wrote: On Tuesday 07 February 2006 05:09, Jeff Shell wrote: Alright, I've stayed up way too late on this. Jeff, you always make great points! I would like to nominate you as the Zope 3 Propaganda Minister! :-) No seriously, you have a great way of explaining why Zope 3 is better than the latest hype; I think you are probably the best qualified to lead the marketing efforts? Are you willing? Anyone seconding me? :-) +2 :^) -- Rob Page V: 540 361 1710 Zope Corporation F: 703 995 0412 ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
On 2/7/06, Jeff Shell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Something that I admire about Ruby on Rails, Django, MochiKit, and TurboGears all is that they're opinionated, proud of it, clear in their message, and all seem to have a similar degree of respect for simplicity and communication. Hi! Just a (recent) example from TG : I've set up a CafePress store for all that TurboGears swag you've been dying to have! It's under construction (the store header is not ideal, and the G-gear needs some fixing up before it goes well on t-shirts), but it's fully functional given that CafePress does all of the actual work. Thanks to Richard Koorb (who we have to thank for our shiny new graphics as it is), there are a couple of shirt designs specifically for PyCon 2006! That's why I wanted to let you all know about the store before it's even done... there's realistically only a few days to order one of those shirts to get it in time for PyCon. http://store.turbogears.org or if that's not working for you yet: http://www.cafepress.com/turbogears -- Sébastien Douche [EMAIL PROTECTED] XPDay France le 23 24 Mars 2006 - séminaire sur l'agilité. Venez découvrir les méthodes agiles // http://www.xp-france.net ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
Alexander Limi wrote: 3.x was still just unfinished vapourware, waiting for the fabled Zope2 integration (the dropping of the X) that people were talking about. The way it was done was also incredibly unprofessional and created a lot of confusion: Oh don't be so rediculous. No-one ever said how Zope 2 integration would happen. It became obvious to many that Five was the way, as such, there was no need for the X anymore. There was a _lot_ of discussion about this... Problem is, the X was never about whether Zope was ready for production use - it had been *explicitly assigned* as a marker that meant Zope 2 migration/support was not there yet. That was never actually firmly established. Some people thought that, but others didn't, and in the end, Five is the way it's happening, so there's no need for the X however you look at it, which is why it was dropped. (I know the reasons, I know the plans for convergence, I know how Five works - I'm just pointing out that this part made a lot of people lose faith in Zope) Oh well, their loss... I don't feel the same need to whore our community out that some people in this thread seems to be focusing on. Zope 2 or 3 are both good tools, and they stand up well without the need for fancy marketing. I'm all for letting the code speak. If Zope gels with people, yay for them, any long may they enjoy it. If it doesn't, yay for them still, I hope they find something that does. That's not to put a dampener on the happy positive people trying to help here, but whining why the X was or wasn't dropped doesn't seem to have any positive benefit... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
On 2/7/06, Martin Aspeli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. This is new different platform, based on Zope ideas but with absolutely different code bases Indeed. This is why I think that if a proper moniker (e.g. Zope3 Zimba) would be better. No, it would only make people go What, first Zope 2, then Zope 3, now Zope Zimba? thinking it's three different things. But always writing it Zope3 might be helpful. ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
Lennart Regebro wrote: On 2/7/06, Martin Aspeli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, it would only make people go What, first Zope 2, then Zope 3, now Zope Zimba? thinking it's three different things. But always writing it Zope3 might be helpful. Telling that there is a difference between Zope 2 and Zope 3 is difficult without actually doing *something* Zope 3 vs Zope3 is a search engine optimisation, and doesn't comunicate anything. It is not as if it hasn't been done for Zope 2 either: Results 1 - 10 of about 293,000 for zope2. (0.20 seconds) Naturally you can tell the difference between 2 and 3 with just a lot of communication. But I believe that a Zope surname will help make the point. To bad that Zope Zen has been used. others from a brief brainstorm: - Zope Zulu - Zope Zone - Zope Spin - Zope Revolution - Zope Shift - Zope Nascence - Zope Transfer - Zope Realize - Zope Works - Zope NG - Zope NT - Zope DR - Zope XP Home edition -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: Zope 3 Marketing Competition? (was Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name)
On Monday 06 February 2006 20:49, Gary Poster wrote: How about we have a marketing competition? :-) +1 from me plus everything else you said below. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: Zope 3 Marketing Competition? (was Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name)
Stephan Richter wrote: On Monday 06 February 2006 20:49, Gary Poster wrote: How about we have a marketing competition? :-) +1 from me plus everything else you said below. Yep, it's a good idea. --Paul ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-Users] Zope 3 Marketing Competition? (was Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name)
Hi there, Gary Poster wrote: [competition] +1. I think the requirement to have enough people submitting is very important, though. No competition anounced unless we get some idea that we'll actually have enough competitors, otherwise we end up looking silly (what happened to the Zope marketing competition? oh, nobody showed up would make Zope marketing *worse*) Alternatively, we could use our energy to actually work together on a new website instead of competing. There's a zope-web mailing list, after all, so go and talk there. This would have my preference. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
On 2/6/06, Martin Aspeli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Guys ... from my reading of the z3-user discussion, there were two subtly
different things that came out:
- Have funky release codenames. Okay, good - makes it easier to talk
about Zope 3.2 vs. 3.3. However, I think this is secondary (by far) to ...
I think it's terrible. I say again, I think 3.2 and 3.3 are easy to
talk about. Well, the current version is 3.2. 3.3 is coming out this
spring and is likely to include foo.baz. We're hoping to get foo.bill
in for 3.4 later this year, but it depends on the usage patterns we
notice from some of the 3.1 deprecations
Well, the current version is Sarengeti. Olympus is coming out this
spring and is likely to include foo.bz. We're hoping to get foo.bill
in for Mushroom later this year, but it depends on the usage patterns
we notice from the Dustmop deprecations
I don't think the second message is any clearer.
- Have a *brand*. That means one name, a name that doesn't change. It
could just be Zope 3 with a capital 3, or it could be a more distinctive
name, e.g. Zope 3 Zomething (where Zomething is something to be decided)
to have an even more distinctive brand; a logo that has some punch, a
colour scheme, a web site with proper advocacy and some start-here
documentation and some quick tutorials.
A good brand name is good. Maybe to be proper with the Web 2.0
phenomenon, it should be 3Zopes.
Beyond that, I think that 'Zope 3' is a good looking set of characters
and can be a strong brand in and of itself. Just always, always,
always refer to it as Zope 3. It doesn't need to be Zope on Zydeco or
something like that. 'Zope 3' has a lot of strong brand potential.
It's crisp, it's clear, it builds on something established yet can
differentiate itself from it.
The secondary brand name (the Zomething in my example above) was the
original example - and I personally think this is a good idea, just to
give the clear message that this is distinct but building on Zope 2.
Zope 2 is seldom referred to as Zope 2. Zope 2.x maybe, but I seldom
notice it referred to as Zope 2, except now that Zope 3 is on the
scene. By just adding emphasis to the 3, and it doesn't even need to
be a strong emphasis, I think we can capture a lot.
A fancy name isn't going to give the message that this is distinct,
especially if the experience of finding out what Zope 3 is and how to
use it starts bringing back painful memories of prior Zopes, or starts
to mirror the stories people have heard about Zope - yeah, it's great
if you can figure it out... good luck figuring it out...
(alright, I'm a little cranky after losing a fight with trying to a do
what I thought was a simple multi-adapter registered with just an
'adapter factory=...' directive call in ZCML... damn thing wouldn't
use my publishTraverse and all I could do was scream and cry and
re-architect my solution because those browser directives did their
magic blessings of publishTraverse, call, and everything else and I
couldn't figure out how to do that on my own easily... augh..)
Seriously, look at http://www.djangoproject.com or http://rubyonrails.com.
This is about getting people to *understand* what Zope is about, to
understand that we *care* that they understand and that we made an
*effort* to make it easy for them to get into it. It's about lowering the
barrier to entry and the risk that they'll spend time learning something
that'll turn out to be a dead end. It's about showing off that Zope can be
sexy and knock the socks off the competition. It's about generating some
excitement, not just a dreary list of technical blather.
Yes! Exactly! You know, for all of the Django is wonderfully
Pythonic... it's for perfectionists... talk, I see a lot in its
core documentation that I think Zope 3 does better. Django does some
very impressive things, but glancing over documents like their Model
API:
http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/model_api/
I see a lot of things that remind me of things that didn't scale well
conceptually in Principia/Zope - tuples and tuples of tuples
(including permissions, in the style of (('can_order_pizza', 'Can
Order Pizza'),) )! Those of us who remember building aggressively
large __ac_permissions__ structures also remember, if their
experiences are like mine, the difficulty of maintaining such lists -
is id or title the first element? Oops, I made a typo and did
'cant_order_pizza' and nothing caught it!, and so on.
zope.formlib and zope.schema really blow all of these other systems
away, I think. I think it's ridiculous that people are saying well, I
don't want to write an Interface but are fine with writing
``first_name = meta.CharField(maxlength=30)``. But in Zope 3.2, you
can't even get a list of zope.schema.* fields in apidoc easily! To
make up for it, there's *great* documentation about formlib, but it's
in the source.
Anyways, I'm sure this is all stuff that we can agree on.
I think the code-naming thing is silly. Names
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
On Tuesday 07 February 2006 05:09, Jeff Shell wrote: Alright, I've stayed up way too late on this. Jeff, you always make great points! I would like to nominate you as the Zope 3 Propaganda Minister! :-) No seriously, you have a great way of explaining why Zope 3 is better than the latest hype; I think you are probably the best qualified to lead the marketing efforts? Are you willing? Anyone seconding me? :-) Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
Stephan Richter wrote: On Tuesday 07 February 2006 05:09, Jeff Shell wrote: Alright, I've stayed up way too late on this. Jeff, you always make great points! I would like to nominate you as the Zope 3 Propaganda Minister! :-) No seriously, you have a great way of explaining why Zope 3 is better than the latest hype; I think you are probably the best qualified to lead the marketing efforts? Are you willing? Anyone seconding me? :-) +10! Jeffs postings are somewhat lengthy, but allways worth to be read :) Just curious - has anyone already thought about the ressource organization? Is there any place we can paste our marketing slogans into? Some repository which could host design proposals for the brand new Zope3 advocay site? Regards, Igor ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
On Tuesday 07 February 2006 05:42, Igor Stroh wrote: Just curious - has anyone already thought about the ressource organization? Is there any place we can paste our marketing slogans into? Some repository which could host design proposals for the brand new Zope3 advocay site? Join the zope-web mailing list. Martijn has started some materials collecting there. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
Hj Jeff, Okay - I'd like to restate my position. :-) I think you're right - having different names for each release (Zope 3.2 = Blah, Zope 3.3 = Foo) *is* a bad idea, it creates confusion, especially in a framework with frequent releases. So -1 on that from me from now on. :) However... Jeff Shell wrote: Beyond that, I think that 'Zope 3' is a good looking set of characters and can be a strong brand in and of itself. Just always, always, always refer to it as Zope 3. It doesn't need to be Zope on Zydeco or something like that. 'Zope 3' has a lot of strong brand potential. It's crisp, it's clear, it builds on something established yet can differentiate itself from it. The secondary brand name (the Zomething in my example above) was the original example - and I personally think this is a good idea, just to give the clear message that this is distinct but building on Zope 2. Zope 2 is seldom referred to as Zope 2. Zope 2.x maybe, but I seldom notice it referred to as Zope 2, except now that Zope 3 is on the scene. By just adding emphasis to the 3, and it doesn't even need to be a strong emphasis, I think we can capture a lot. A fancy name isn't going to give the message that this is distinct, especially if the experience of finding out what Zope 3 is and how to use it starts bringing back painful memories of prior Zopes, or starts to mirror the stories people have heard about Zope - yeah, it's great if you can figure it out... good luck figuring it out... if you don't mind me using your argumentation to argue my point: There are a lot of people out there, it seems, that hate Zope. Maybe they hate Zope 2, maybe they even tried Zope 3.0 and got burnt. Somehow, it just seems it's got some bad stigma around it (e.g. look at the average flaming reply to a blog posting about Zope 3). Now, for those people, putting a new name in their heads may be a good way of suggesting that indeed, there is something new and something better here. It's not just the same old Zope with a few more bells and whistles, it's something entirely different. It deserves a second look. As Stephan pointed out, denying the Zope legacy is denying the work of those who took it from Zope 2 to Zope 3, and denying that we've learnt a lot of lessons from Zope 2. Which is why, in my reading, the original proposal for all this was to include all of them: The Zope, the 3 and the new name. And with that, as you identify, some more branding, in terms of resources, in terms of a clear, concise message and tag line, in terms of a good logo that people recognise, and in terms of an outward-facing orientation. That name should stay the same, across releases! Let's say we adopted the brand Zope 3 Singularity, zope3singularity.org, a slogan (Zope 3 Singularity - Be Adaptive), a logo, a colour scheme, a web site that's simple and on-message and a download box that says: Download version 3.2. When version 3.3 comes out, you'd say - NEW! Version 3.3, now with these cool new features, click here to see them in action. The brand stays Zope 3 Singularity, though. The message stays. The logo stays. And for new adopter that raves about Z3 Singularity being the best thing since sliced bread, people will take note that it's something new, not just the same dreary Zope (2) they tried before. So why the name, why not just Zope 3? You say that for Zope 3 to become a strong brand, people should Just always, always, always refer to it as Zope 3. What about the ones who didn't get the memo? What about J. Random Blogger who goes on and rants or raves about the latest version of Zope, forgetting the 3 and people either ignore him as a Zope Zealot (heh) with his head in the sand, or start arguing vigorously against him because they used Zope once in 1998 and didn't like it. As you said - this isn't easy. We need to be opinionated, proud, clear on our message. We need to take marketing seriously, because at the moment, a beautiful framework is obscured by an awful web site and an absent brand. Martin View this message in context: Re: Re: Selecting a code name Sent from the Zope3 - dev forum at Nabble.com. ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re(2): [Zope3-Users] Zope 3 Marketing Competition? (was Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name)
Ursprüngliche Nachricht Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:01:23 +0100 von: Martijn Faassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Alternatively, we could use our energy to actually work together on a new website instead of competing. There's a zope-web mailing list, after all, so go and talk there. This would have my preference. I agree and think that Zope 3 doesn't need a secondary brand name. My suggestion: set up a dedicated website zope3.tld to emphazise that it is not just a new version, and things will go the right direction. The Zope3-rotterdam logo may be good enough to start a no-nonsens design. Downloads, tutorials and documentation of any level should be available by as less clicks as possible. The site should be as user friendly as possible for someone who looks the first time at zope3 (and may be thinking the sql-way), this is the audience. Just my 5¢ for further discussions. regards, -Klaus ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-Users] Zope 3 Marketing Competition? (was Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name)
Max M wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: Alternatively, we could use our energy to actually work together on a new website instead of competing. There's a zope-web mailing list, after all, so go and talk there. This would have my preference. If you want to fix the Zope 2 website at the same time as branding Zope 3, I fear it is a monumental task that will never happen. Yes, that is indeed a risk that I'm well aware of. Still, I think we can present a good 'brochure' about Zope 2 on a unified website. Whatever we do, we should definitely sketch out the relationship between the two projects, something that is now completely missing. Zope 2 needs marketing as much as Zope 3. The Zope 2 website is so big, and has so much content that it should have somebody working on it full time if it needs changing. Perhaps this monumental approach to a zope site is wrong. Microsites with well defined boundaries, that a few or a single person could be responsible for might be a better approach. Yes. Rest assured my ambition is to keep ambitions as low as possible. :) Otherwise nothing will happen. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-Users] Zope 3 Marketing Competition? (was Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name)
Martijn Faassen wrote: Max M wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: Alternatively, we could use our energy to actually work together on a new website instead of competing. There's a zope-web mailing list, after all, so go and talk there. This would have my preference. If you want to fix the Zope 2 website at the same time as branding Zope 3, I fear it is a monumental task that will never happen. Yes, that is indeed a risk that I'm well aware of. Still, I think we can present a good 'brochure' about Zope 2 on a unified website. Whatever we do, we should definitely sketch out the relationship between the two projects, something that is now completely missing. Zope 2 needs marketing as much as Zope 3. The Zope 2 website is so big, and has so much content that it should have somebody working on it full time if it needs changing. Perhaps this monumental approach to a zope site is wrong. Microsites with well defined boundaries, that a few or a single person could be responsible for might be a better approach. Yes. Rest assured my ambition is to keep ambitions as low as possible. :) Otherwise nothing will happen. The front page of Zope.org doesn't show the activity around Z3 at all. That wouln't cost anything to start to add a few z3 links in Zope Exits for example. (beside the point to have a marco/micro approach) Regards Tarek ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
Mikhail Kashkin wrote: 2. When users searchin' in search engines 'Zope 3', Google or other throw away 3 and search only for Zope Google doesn't throw away the 3. -- Benji York Senior Software Engineer Zope Corporation ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
On Tue, Feb 07, 2006 at 03:09:01AM -0700, Jeff Shell wrote: and this, which I absolutely love: http://www.python.org/doc/2.4/whatsnew/whatsnew24.html +1. I think we really need something like that. I know that even I would care a lot less about new Python releases if -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-Users] Zope 3 Marketing Competition? (was Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name)
Tarek Ziadé wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: Yes. Rest assured my ambition is to keep ambitions as low as possible. :) Otherwise nothing will happen. The front page of Zope.org doesn't show the activity around Z3 at all. That wouln't cost anything to start to add a few z3 links in Zope Exits for example. (beside the point to have a marco/micro approach) Good point. I'm not a maintainer of the current zope.org so this suggestion will have to be made to someone who can change things. I'm sure someone is listening on the zope-web mailing list who can? Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
You're right, googling Zope 3 works well surprisingly enough. For the record, I'm +.9 on sticking with Zope 3 for the moment, not ruling out adding a codename or marketing tagline in future if we found one that really fit. There *is* some bad feeling associated with Zope - but also a lot of respect and I'd like to see us stand by our name and drive out the badness. I think an excellent django/ror/turbogears-style website is all the Zope brand needs to win. ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
On 2/7/06, Stephan Richter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 07 February 2006 05:09, Jeff Shell wrote: Alright, I've stayed up way too late on this. Jeff, you always make great points! I would like to nominate you as the Zope 3 Propaganda Minister! :-) No seriously, you have a great way of explaining why Zope 3 is better than the latest hype; I think you are probably the best qualified to lead the marketing efforts? Are you willing? Anyone seconding me? :-) I'm willing, if I can make the time. And if I can make the time to write the lengthy emails that I do, I can write a real document, right? :) Last night I was looking at this page: http://www.zope.org/WhatIsZope and going damn, that's nice and then damn, I wrote a lot of that! There was some pre-existing material, but I remember updating it into the form that it stands at now and has stood at since. It really makes me want to register a whatiszope3.com and putting a page like that up. I've really really really been wanting to do this, and I've talked with the other guys here about doing something.. anything... to give back to the community. Heck, I've been wanting a little server here that I could play with in making a public facing Zope 3 application. But our resources have been severely limited :\. I may still go ahead and make a static page for now, or a post in Griddle Noise. Or even make a Writeboard.. Or a page in my Backpack account.. Or.. So many options, but so many deadlines. But I'll do my part to try to do something in the next few days. ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
Jeff Shell wrote: Beyond that, I think that 'Zope 3' is a good looking set of characters and can be a strong brand in and of itself. Just always, always, always refer to it as Zope 3. It doesn't need to be Zope on Zydeco or something like that. 'Zope 3' has a lot of strong brand potential. It's crisp, it's clear, it builds on something established yet can differentiate itself from it. hear hear! (alright, I'm a little cranky after losing a fight with trying to a do what I thought was a simple multi-adapter registered with just an 'adapter factory=...' directive call in ZCML... damn thing wouldn't use my publishTraverse and all I could do was scream and cry and re-architect my solution because those browser directives did their magic blessings of publishTraverse, call, and everything else and I couldn't figure out how to do that on my own easily... augh..) oooh, suckage :-/ I hope this is easy to unplug... I think the code-naming thing is silly. Names drive me crazy after a point because I just don't find the worth in keeping my internal translations up to date. hear hear 2! cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
Mikhail Kashkin wrote: 1. This is new different platform, based on Zope ideas but with absolutely different code bases 2. When users searchin' in search engines 'Zope 3', Google or other throw away 3 and search only for Zope 3. Zope3 (or zope3) is more pythonic, you cann't name your module '''zope 3.webdev''' or something like this. Yes, but then we end up with Zope3 3.2.5, which is exactly what caused us to drop the X3 previously ;-) cheers, Chris - Simple is better, but then I would say that! -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 09:37:08 -0800, Fred Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/7/06, Paul Winkler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As I said before, I'm +0 on enhancing the brand, -1 on adding release codenames. IMO codenames make it harder, not easier, to talk about releases. Which came first - Cheetah or Puma? I submit that nobody but a certified mac geek can answer that question without googling it. I agree with Paul here. Version relationships are important for technical audiences, and names don't help wirth that. I don't know what would help with marketing, but I suspect a general brand would be more helpful than version codenames. The only version codename I'm likely to remember is that for Ubuntu 6.04. :-) The original discussion never suggested code names for releases, but a brand name to help Zope 3 separate itself from Zope 2 - since it is a *completely* different beast. Code names for releases is only useful inside the team, IMO - unless you have the marketing power of designing a themed logo for every release (like Apple did - and it still creates confusion, so they dropped that for 10.4 Tiger - no stripes there, sir). -- _ Alexander Limi · Chief Architect · Plone Solutions · Norway Consulting · Training · Development · http://www.plonesolutions.com _ Plone Co-Founder · http://plone.org · Connecting Content Plone Foundation · http://plone.org/foundation · Protecting Plone ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 00:32:52 -0800, Martin Aspeli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Like it or not, Zope (2) seems to have a lot of stigma out there; Zope 3 has been around a while. In actual fact, for a while I thought Zope 3.x was still just unfinished vapourware, waiting for the fabled Zope2 integration (the dropping of the X) that people were talking about. The way it was done was also incredibly unprofessional and created a lot of confusion: Quoting from http://www.zope.org/DevHome/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/Zope320: It is our opinion that Zope 3 is more than ready for production use, which is why we decided to drop the X for experimental from the name. Problem is, the X was never about whether Zope was ready for production use - it had been *explicitly assigned* as a marker that meant Zope 2 migration/support was not there yet. A lot of people actually believed this would happen (as the Zope roadmap and PR spiel told them so), even though all of us knew it wouldn't happen. (I know the reasons, I know the plans for convergence, I know how Five works - I'm just pointing out that this part made a lot of people lose faith in Zope) -- _ Alexander Limi · Chief Architect · Plone Solutions · Norway Consulting · Training · Development · http://www.plonesolutions.com _ Plone Co-Founder · http://plone.org · Connecting Content Plone Foundation · http://plone.org/foundation · Protecting Plone ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
Alexander Limi wrote: The original discussion never suggested code names for releases, but a brand name to help Zope 3 separate itself from Zope 2 - since it is a *completely* different beast. Random thought... hehe... Zope Cubed. It's only a typographical change from Zope 3. The tagline would be Zope, raised to a higher power! It's a vague reference to cubicles, where enterprise developers usually work. It's also a vague reference to Cubism, which lets the viewer see many perspectives from a single viewpoint, like Zope 3, which lets the developer accomplish many objectives using a single framework. :-) wasting-time-ly y'rs, Shane ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
On 2/8/06, Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, but then we end up with Zope3 3.2.5, which is exactly what caused us to drop the X3 previously ;-) Thinking about the X it is unfortunate it was used to indicate compatibility with Zope2 and the experimental version of Zope. It was mentioned on the users list how Mac OS X communicated the message adding just the X that this was a completely different operating system to the previous Mac OS-s. Of course, as Martin pointed out, it is not just the brand name but the marketing effort behind it that makes the difference. But to me X could very easily stand for Extreme Programming which is what Zope3 is about - agile, rapid, adaptive, iterative, extreme development (throwing in a few more words for the upcoming marketing campaign :). The X can send this message better than any other single character and it's not as obtrusive as adding or changing a name. I believe to certain extent there is already understanding out there that X could mean XP. I also think that Zope 2.8 Zope 2.9 Zope X 3.2 Zope X 3.3 is clearer that this is a different Zope not just a next release, as it would be at the moment: Zope 2.8 Zope 2.9 Zope 3.2 Zope 3.3 or is it Zope 2.8 Zope 2.9 Zope 3 3.2 Zope 3 3.3 Back in the days of X3.0 I think Philipp in the heading of this article named Formula X used X in a different context and I liked it: http://www.linux-magazine.com/issue/54/Zope_X30_Review.pdf (maybe we should check with Philipp if this article could be reviewed for 3.2 and used for the new site as it gives a nice overview) I am not sure if it was a good idea raising the X from the dead so I am slowly ducking for cover. But what's the big deal, we just adapt it to a different context... or is it adapt context to a different interface .. or ... anyhow you get my drift :) Alen ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 14:37:45 -0800, Shane Hathaway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alexander Limi wrote: The original discussion never suggested code names for releases, but a brand name to help Zope 3 separate itself from Zope 2 - since it is a *completely* different beast. Random thought... hehe... Zope Cubed. It's only a typographical change from Zope 3. The tagline would be Zope, raised to a higher power! It's a vague reference to cubicles, where enterprise developers usually work. It's also a vague reference to Cubism, which lets the viewer see many perspectives from a single viewpoint, like Zope 3, which lets the developer accomplish many objectives using a single framework. :-) Too bad this is already the name for the experimental Plone integration work with Zope 3. :) -- _ Alexander Limi · Chief Architect · Plone Solutions · Norway Consulting · Training · Development · http://www.plonesolutions.com _ Plone Co-Founder · http://plone.org · Connecting Content Plone Foundation · http://plone.org/foundation · Protecting Plone ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
On 2/7/06, Alen Stanisic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: upcoming marketing campaign :). The X can send this message better than any other single character and it's not as obtrusive as adding or changing a name. I believe to certain extent there is already understanding out there that X could mean XP. If we must add something at all, I don't see that it needs to be a single letter. Adding the X would simply make the confusion worse, anyway, given that only a limited amount of marketing will get done anyway. So why not say it's about XP and make it Zope XP 3.x.y? -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr.fdrake at gmail.com There is no wealth but life. --John Ruskin ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
2006/2/7, Shane Hathaway [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Alexander Limi wrote: The original discussion never suggested code names for releases, but a brand name to help Zope 3 separate itself from Zope 2 - since it is a *completely* different beast. Random thought... hehe... Zope Cubed. It's only a typographical change from Zope 3. The tagline would be Zope, raised to a higher power! It's a vague reference to cubicles, where enterprise developers usually work. It's also a vague reference to Cubism, which lets the viewer see many perspectives from a single viewpoint, like Zope 3, which lets the developer accomplish many objectives using a single framework. :-) +1 It's also an exponential increase in power. Cubism was an innovation allowing multiple views of an object. 2006/2/8, Martin Aspeli [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Zope^3 :) That's brilliant. It works in ASCII, or in normal text in a paragraph of a magazine. Now, try it in a few different typefaces, and make it big. Zope^3 is *far* more visually interesting than 'Zope3'. 2006/2/8, Alexander Limi [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Too bad this is already the name for the experimental Plone integration work with Zope 3. :) Too bad? I'd say it's perfect. All the apps will get cubed. :-) kit -- kit BLAKE Infrae · infrae.com · +31 10 243 7051 Hoevestraat 10 · 3033GC · Rotterdam · The Netherlands ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:27:43 -, Shane Hathaway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stephan Richter wrote: On Friday 03 February 2006 12:14, Shane Hathaway wrote: Andreas Zeidler wrote: On Fri, Feb 03 17:24, Encolpe Degoute [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zope 3 / Revolution ? well, how about Zope3, Reloaded for all the matrix fans out there? :) The idea of release code names adds a little spice. Most people like spices on their food, so why not on their software too? But the naming scheme really has to be based on the Tarzan series. Jim's a Tarzan fan. Okay, I am giving in on this. There is a three step process that will have to be fullfilled to assign a codename to the Zope 3.3 release. I'd say assigning a name is a responsibility of the release manager. It's not something to spend time debating. Are you the release manager for 3.3? If so, and you don't want to assign a name, then by all means forget the idea. Guys ... from my reading of the z3-user discussion, there were two subtly different things that came out: - Have funky release codenames. Okay, good - makes it easier to talk about Zope 3.2 vs. 3.3. However, I think this is secondary (by far) to ... - Have a *brand*. That means one name, a name that doesn't change. It could just be Zope 3 with a capital 3, or it could be a more distinctive name, e.g. Zope 3 Zomething (where Zomething is something to be decided) to have an even more distinctive brand; a logo that has some punch, a colour scheme, a web site with proper advocacy and some start-here documentation and some quick tutorials. The secondary brand name (the Zomething in my example above) was the original example - and I personally think this is a good idea, just to give the clear message that this is distinct but building on Zope 2. Seriously, look at http://www.djangoproject.com or http://rubyonrails.com. This is about getting people to *understand* what Zope is about, to understand that we *care* that they understand and that we made an *effort* to make it easy for them to get into it. It's about lowering the barrier to entry and the risk that they'll spend time learning something that'll turn out to be a dead end. It's about showing off that Zope can be sexy and knock the socks off the competition. It's about generating some excitement, not just a dreary list of technical blather. This is the proposal that considers the most serious consideration in my opinion. The original discussion showed that a lot of people found Zope's lack of branding a problem. Now it's time to find a solution to that problem. (or so I hope) :-) Martin -- (muted) ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Zope 3 Marketing Competition? (was Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name)
On Feb 6, 2006, at 5:37 PM, Martin Aspeli wrote: [...] This is about getting people to *understand* what Zope is about, to understand that we *care* that they understand and that we made an *effort* to make it easy for them to get into it. It's about lowering the barrier to entry and the risk that they'll spend time learning something that'll turn out to be a dead end. It's about showing off that Zope can be sexy and knock the socks off the competition. It's about generating some excitement, not just a dreary list of technical blather. [...] How about we have a marketing competition? :-) The goal would be to set a date, like end of February or end of March, at which point everyone would submit their entries. Entries would be something like a one-to-three page brochure website. We'd vote...maybe within categories like 'marketing copy', 'layout', 'logo', and 'overall concept'. Winners would have net fame, and we'd put top contenders up on a zope*.org site. Maybe we could do something else small for the winners too? Any ideas? Minimal requirements to get this to happen: - final submission date - enough people committing to have an entry (maybe 10? 15? I think *everyone* potentially has something to offer here, so the numbers would ideally be even bigger...but I won't hold my breath :-) - someone willing to organize - a web site to post the results to. ;-) If the due date is in March or later, I'll volunteer to organize, if there's enough interest and then enough commitments to enter. That said, if someone else wanted to volunteer to organize, I'd gladly hand the reins over. ;-) Is this crazy? Gary ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
