Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: How does the rotterdam skin work?

2005-10-24 Thread Jim Fulton

Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:

Tonico Strasser wrote:



Michael Jansen schrieb:



Hi

Is there anywhere an explanation how the rotterdam skin works. Some
insight's to how an when which parts are selected?

How to use and expand it?

I think i'm making progress in understanding how the parts click
together, but some additional insights would be nice.

The tutorials i found about skins just told me to create a
template.pt and a dialog_macros.pt and so on. But not why. And when
either one is used.
I think i understand some parts of that now and if there is no such
thing like a explanation of this logics i would try to blame myself
by writing down my findings so far.

Btw. I think doc/skins/README.txt is a little bit out of date. 



I think the Rotterdam skin is doomed. I'd rather create my own skin
than try to expand it.

Tonico




Hi!
the problem is not in the skin itself, but in the model  used to create
skins. Filesystem-based skins that depend on ZPT macros are doomed by
definition, unless they are designed to cover most of the site layouts
you'll find on the internet (for instance the Plone skin is quite
generic). But maintaining such a generic skin (HTML + CSS) is a lot of work.


While I wouldn't put it *quite* so harshly, I agree.


Also there is a problem with the target audience: ZPT programmers are
not always good graphic designers and UI/ graphic designers are not
always good at ZPT / python.


ZPT isn't supposed to be grouped with Python. ZPT was definately designed
for Web Designers -- people who use tools like Dreamwever.  Except for the macro
issue, ZPT has been pretty (as opposed to completely) sucessful in our
experience.  One thing I'd definately do differently if I could go back
in time to when we invented ZPT is I would absolutely not include python
expressions.  In generally, I would have made them computationally less
powerful.  Our intent was definately that people would not do complex
computations in ZPT but people have definately abused the power we've
provided.

I think the biggest problem with the ZPT macro approach to look and feel
concerns are not separated.  CPSSkins deals with this in it's own way.
I'd like to see an approach for people not using CPSSkins. :)  I think that
this will involve some sort of post-publishing phase in the publication
process.

Jim


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Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: How does the rotterdam skin work?

2005-10-24 Thread Michael Jansen
Hi

Thanx for the answers so far.

OK. Just a question that occured to me after posting this. Is this the right
newsgroup? I'm subscribed here for over a year. Just lurking, never posted
before. So just forgot looking for a users list. I guess there is a zope3-users
list?

 The tutorials i found about skins just told me to create a
 template.pt and a dialog_macros.pt and so on. But not why. And when
 either one is used.
 I think i understand some parts of that now and if there is no such
 thing like a explanation of this logics i would try to blame myself
 by writing down my findings so far.
 
 Btw. I think doc/skins/README.txt is a little bit out of date. 
 
 
 I think the Rotterdam skin is doomed. I'd rather create my own skin
 than try to expand it.

But i ( have to / should ) use the rotterdam skin as a blueprint for my new one?
Or are there better alternatives? As i wrote the tutorials just mention the
rotterdam skin!

Has one of the books better documentation?

Should i use the schooltools skin?

I'm still willing to document my findings on how to create a zope3 skin.

Michael Jansen



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Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: How does the rotterdam skin work?

2005-10-24 Thread Jim Fulton

Paul Winkler wrote:

Hi Jim, just de-lurking for a moment:

On 10/24/05, Jim Fulton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I think the biggest problem with the ZPT macro approach to look and feel


concerns are not separated.  CPSSkins deals with this in it's own way.



I couldn't quite parse that.  What is not separated from what?


Sorry, I assumed too much context.

At a minimum, the concerns of the page author are not separated from the
concerns of the site designer. Put another way, the concerns of the person
creating the content well are mixed up with the concerns of people creating the
O-wrap.  There are probably other concerns that should be separated too.

Jim

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Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: How does the rotterdam skin work?

2005-10-24 Thread Jean-Marc Orliaguet
Jim Fulton wrote:

 Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote:


 Hi!
 the problem is not in the skin itself, but in the model  used to create
 skins. Filesystem-based skins that depend on ZPT macros are doomed by
 definition, unless they are designed to cover most of the site layouts
 you'll find on the internet (for instance the Plone skin is quite
 generic). But maintaining such a generic skin (HTML + CSS) is a lot
 of work.


 While I wouldn't put it *quite* so harshly, I agree.

 Also there is a problem with the target audience: ZPT programmers are
 not always good graphic designers and UI/ graphic designers are not
 always good at ZPT / python.


 ZPT isn't supposed to be grouped with Python. ZPT was definately designed
 for Web Designers -- people who use tools like Dreamwever.  Except for
 the macro
 issue, ZPT has been pretty (as opposed to completely) sucessful in our
 experience.  One thing I'd definately do differently if I could go back
 in time to when we invented ZPT is I would absolutely not include python
 expressions.  In generally, I would have made them computationally less
 powerful.  Our intent was definately that people would not do complex
 computations in ZPT but people have definately abused the power we've
 provided.

 I think the biggest problem with the ZPT macro approach to look and feel
 concerns are not separated.  CPSSkins deals with this in it's own way.
 I'd like to see an approach for people not using CPSSkins. :)  I think
 that
 this will involve some sort of post-publishing phase in the publication
 process.

 Jim



Sure, the separation between content and presentation is very clean in
ZPT (assuming python: expressions did not exist..:-) ). The difference
in the two approaches are more deeply grounded I think:

- the page template model starts from the idea of individual web pages
(easy to understand for a web designer) that expands into a whole site
by creating abstractions such as 'page headers', 'slots', etc.. The
starting point is a web *page* which becomes a generic 'template', and
eventually a site as a collection of published objects that use the same
templates. The process is from the particular to the general, the
'template' make it possible to do the transition.

- with cpsskins, the process goes the other way: from general to
particular. The difficulty lies instead in creating particular pages
that do not follow any given pattern. The logic is close to the
development of an application UI that tries to emulate web sites.
 
/JM
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Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: How does the rotterdam skin work?

2005-10-24 Thread Jean-Marc Orliaguet
Jim Fulton wrote:

 Paul Winkler wrote:

 Hi Jim, just de-lurking for a moment:

 On 10/24/05, Jim Fulton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   I think the biggest problem with the ZPT macro approach to look
 and feel

 concerns are not separated.  CPSSkins deals with this in it's own way.



 I couldn't quite parse that.  What is not separated from what?


 Sorry, I assumed too much context.

 At a minimum, the concerns of the page author are not separated from the
 concerns of the site designer. Put another way, the concerns of the
 person
 creating the content well are mixed up with the concerns of people
 creating the
 O-wrap.  There are probably other concerns that should be separated
 too.

 Jim


To put it differently: with page templates you try to separate concerns,
by splitting things into: content, presentation, portlets, viewlets,
macros, local variations in the presentation (put your concept here)
using the TAL language. But what you start from is in fact a HTML page.

In cpsskins you start from the individual concepts (portlets, widgets,
styles, slots, pages, themes, perspectives. ...) that can be related in
different ways and the job of the rendering engine is create a
particular composition based on the instructions given by different
categories of users (UI designers. site designer, application designers,
users, .. )

/JM


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