Re: [Zope3-dev] a plan for widgets?
On Mar 17, 2006, at 10:24 AM, Martijn Faassen wrote: [...] I'm quite interested in knowing more about your plans, and helping you implement things, if only by porting existing widgets over to the new system. I also realize that discussing this kind of stuff over on the mailing list slows down the speed of implementation quite a bit, especially if there's a clear vision in your head of where it should go. But I still want to help. Ugh. Perhaps just drop me a line when you think I could be useful. :-) Thanks, that's a great offer. I hope to take you up on it when I'm ready. Maybe we should have a sprint where I can sit next to you? :) :-) That would be cool too. Gary ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: zope.org checkin mailing list Re: [Zope3-dev] a plan for widgets?
Fred Drake wrote: On 3/17/06, Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I thought that was for one of the many defunct projects to rebuild zope.org? I think that's right. The right list should be Zope-CVS, which seems to be getting email for the separate zope.* projects, but not the zc.* projects. Yup. Here's an idea: Perhaps we should have a zope.org-checkins that gets all checkins to zope.org. The existing checkin lists would be kept for the benefit of people with narrower interest in more significant projects. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: zope.org checkin mailing list Re: [Zope3-dev] a plan for widgets?
+1 Jim Fulton wrote: Fred Drake wrote: On 3/17/06, Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I thought that was for one of the many defunct projects to rebuild zope.org? I think that's right. The right list should be Zope-CVS, which seems to be getting email for the separate zope.* projects, but not the zc.* projects. Yup. Here's an idea: Perhaps we should have a zope.org-checkins that gets all checkins to zope.org. The existing checkin lists would be kept for the benefit of people with narrower interest in more significant projects. Jim -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: zope.org checkin mailing list Re: [Zope3-dev] a plan for widgets?
On Saturday 18 March 2006 07:41, Jim Fulton wrote: Perhaps we should have a zope.org-checkins that gets all checkins to zope.org. The existing checkin lists would be kept for the benefit of people with narrower interest in more significant projects. +1 I would certainly subscribe to that one rather than all the other ones. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] a plan for widgets?
Gary Poster wrote: On Mar 16, 2006, at 11:42 AM, Martijn Faassen wrote: [snip] Roger Ineichen wrote: [snip] btw, didn't Gary Poster start a widget refactoring? Good question. I have no idea what the status of all that stuff is; whether anything got merged or not.. At ZC, several of us had enough experience with the zope widgets that we felt pretty confident that we wanted to start again, with a backwards compatibility story. We started, but ran out of steam, and didn't have a driving project for the changes, so we shelved it. We have an upcoming project that will want the changes. Our current plan is to develop what we need as zc.widget or something, and open- source it at the end when it's what we need, in the hopes that some will find it compelling enough to join in the maintenance and further development (btw, thanks, dobe, for the work on resourcelibrary!). No public timeframe. What's 'dobe' mean? Doing it in the zc namespace is intended to make no assumptions about what happens with zope.app.form; zc.widget probably will have some backwards-compatibility with zope.app.form, but no dependencies. Hm, while redoing widgets to be better and presumably more capable is definitely cool and interesting, some things have got me a bit worried, in particular the no public timeframe and the need for my projects to work with widgets. I have some questions about the new design - how fundamental is this change to be? Will the widgets API change drastically and will this require changes in formlib as well? Is this part of the backwards compatibility story? It doesn't sound right if it is, as there would be no point to a new API if the forms machinery would use the old one. What also got me worried is that the promise of future new widgets may result in the community doing very little for the time being. We seemed to have a little bit of momentum to clean up zope.app.form.browser, but this will now evaporate most likely. It also potentially makes efforts like using Zope 3 widgets with Zope 2 archetypes not very worthwhile right now, for instance. On the other hand, I can see why, if you have clear ideas about a design, you'd want to develop this in isolation and move it to open source later. But it still isn't positive for any community-driven actions. What to do about this? Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] a plan for widgets?
Martijn Faassen schrieb: Gary Poster wrote: [...] We have an upcoming project that will want the changes. Our current plan is to develop what we need as zc.widget or something, and open- source it at the end when it's what we need, in the hopes that some will find it compelling enough to join in the maintenance and further development (btw, thanks, dobe, for the work on resourcelibrary!). No public timeframe. What's 'dobe' mean? I guess he means Bernd Dorn, a developer from austria, he improves the zc.resourcelibrary. -- Mit freundlichem Gruss Roger Ineichen _ Projekt01 GmbH www.projekt01.ch Boesch 65 6331 Hünenberg phone +41 (0)41 781 01 78 mobile+41 (0)79 340 52 32 fax +41 (0)41 781 00 78 email [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ END OF MESSAGE ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] a plan for widgets?
Roger Ineichen wrote: Martijn Faassen schrieb: Gary Poster wrote: [...] We have an upcoming project that will want the changes. Our current plan is to develop what we need as zc.widget or something, and open- source it at the end when it's what we need, in the hopes that some will find it compelling enough to join in the maintenance and further development (btw, thanks, dobe, for the work on resourcelibrary!). No public timeframe. What's 'dobe' mean? I guess he means Bernd Dorn, a developer from austria, he improves the zc.resourcelibrary. One problem I seem to have is that I cannot find the mailing list to subscribe to to find checkin messages to the zc package. Is there any? Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] a plan for widgets?
On 17.03.2006, at 10:32, Martijn Faassen wrote: One problem I seem to have is that I cannot find the mailing list to subscribe to to find checkin messages to the zc package. Is there any? the normal checkin list is [EMAIL PROTECTED], but not all packages are included (i think only core packages), and i dunno the policy behind afaik jim is responsible to configure from which packages checkin messages are sent to this list ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] a plan for widgets?
Bernd Dorn wrote: On 17.03.2006, at 10:32, Martijn Faassen wrote: One problem I seem to have is that I cannot find the mailing list to subscribe to to find checkin messages to the zc package. Is there any? the normal checkin list is [EMAIL PROTECTED], but not all packages are included (i think only core packages), and i dunno the policy behind afaik jim is responsible to configure from which packages checkin messages are sent to this list I'm on that list, but I don't see zc. related checkins there. I'll cc Jim - perhaps it's as simple as just including them there (I'd be fine with that). That way I have a chance of tracking what's going on with these packages. Great that you're working on it! Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] a plan for widgets?
Martijn Faassen wrote: One problem I seem to have is that I cannot find the mailing list to subscribe to to find checkin messages to the zc package. Is there any? I think there is one, but don't know what it is. :) Instead I prefer to get my checkin info via RSS. Here's a decent (and improving) feed of all checkins for the zope.org Subversion repo: http://www.repocaster.com/main/get_feed/14 I have hopes that one day we'll do away with checkin mailing lists and use feeds instead, but an external service like the above is an interesting step in that direction. -- Benji York Senior Software Engineer Zope Corporation ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
zope.org checkin mailing list Re: [Zope3-dev] a plan for widgets?
On Mar 17, 2006, at 9:13 AM, Benji York wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: One problem I seem to have is that I cannot find the mailing list to subscribe to to find checkin messages to the zc package. Is there any? I think there is one, but don't know what it is. :) Jim's talked about one. This seems like it ought to be it, but the archives show it to be decidedly dead: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zopeorg-checkins Instead I prefer to get my checkin info via RSS. Here's a decent (and improving) feed of all checkins for the zope.org Subversion repo: http://www.repocaster.com/main/get_feed/14 That's how I've been keeping up Gary ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] a plan for widgets?
On Mar 17, 2006, at 4:08 AM, Martijn Faassen wrote: Gary Poster wrote: [... snip already-answered question (thanks Roger)...] Doing it in the zc namespace is intended to make no assumptions about what happens with zope.app.form; zc.widget probably will have some backwards-compatibility with zope.app.form, but no dependencies. Hm, while redoing widgets to be better and presumably more capable is definitely cool and interesting, some things have got me a bit worried, in particular the no public timeframe and the need for my projects to work with widgets. I have some questions about the new design - how fundamental is this change to be? Will the widgets API change drastically yes and will this require changes in formlib as well? the current idea is that we will reuse the formlib API (the interfaces, maybe even the effective zope.formlib.form module interface) and as much of the formlib machinery as possible. Is this part of the backwards compatibility story? It doesn't sound right if it is, as there would be no point to a new API if the forms machinery would use the old one. Correct. What also got me worried is that the promise of future new widgets may result in the community doing very little for the time being. We seemed to have a little bit of momentum to clean up zope.app.form.browser, but this will now evaporate most likely. It also potentially makes efforts like using Zope 3 widgets with Zope 2 archetypes not very worthwhile right now, for instance. On the other hand, I can see why, if you have clear ideas about a design, you'd want to develop this in isolation and move it to open source later. But it still isn't positive for any community-driven actions. What to do about this? Maybe we should have just been quiet. I expect this is one of those damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't moments. The current backwards compatibility plan is that we'll provide an adapter to let zope.app.form-style widgets work in the new system to do the same kinds of things you can do with them now; you'll only need new widgets if you want to do new tricks with them. Also, it's a goal that it will will be relatively easy to port an zope.app.form- style widget to our interfaces. You also don't know if you'll like what we do. Maybe these answers are motivation enough for some folks to continue with some of the projects you describe. Gary ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] a plan for widgets?
Gary Poster wrote: On Mar 17, 2006, at 4:08 AM, Martijn Faassen wrote: Gary Poster wrote: [snip] What also got me worried is that the promise of future new widgets may result in the community doing very little for the time being. We seemed to have a little bit of momentum to clean up zope.app.form.browser, but this will now evaporate most likely. It also potentially makes efforts like using Zope 3 widgets with Zope 2 archetypes not very worthwhile right now, for instance. On the other hand, I can see why, if you have clear ideas about a design, you'd want to develop this in isolation and move it to open source later. But it still isn't positive for any community-driven actions. What to do about this? Maybe we should have just been quiet. I expect this is one of those damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't moments. Yeah, I understand. :( Overall I'm glad you let us know and haven't been quiet, though. The current backwards compatibility plan is that we'll provide an adapter to let zope.app.form-style widgets work in the new system to do the same kinds of things you can do with them now; you'll only need new widgets if you want to do new tricks with them. Also, it's a goal that it will will be relatively easy to port an zope.app.form- style widget to our interfaces. You also don't know if you'll like what we do. What are the prime motivators for doing what you'll do? I.e. beside having a cleaner widgets system, what are you trying to accomplish feature-wise? Maybe these answers are motivation enough for some folks to continue with some of the projects you describe. Well, my personal priorities to work on this stuff have shifted now that I realize that there are indeed some significant changes are ahead. These incremental changes would be worthwhile if that was the only thing in the future. But we'd in fact have incremental changes that would be replaced entirely at some point in the future, which gives them only a limited utility. I'm quite interested in knowing more about your plans, and helping you implement things, if only by porting existing widgets over to the new system. I also realize that discussing this kind of stuff over on the mailing list slows down the speed of implementation quite a bit, especially if there's a clear vision in your head of where it should go. But I still want to help. Ugh. Perhaps just drop me a line when you think I could be useful. Maybe we should have a sprint where I can sit next to you? :) Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] a plan for widgets?
On 3/16/06, Martijn Faassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Jim tells me Don't look at SimpleInputWidget, it's too complicated. This sounds wrong and zope2-like; something called Simple that's too complicated. We need to figure out how to make that story less complicated. Basically, it tries to be easily overrideable by create a whole host of methods that doesn't exist on other widgets, which you then can override. That basically makes no sense, if there is a function that should be easily overrideable, it should exist on a basic widget. Are people interested in developing a plan to tackle these issues? If some of us chip in we may get somewhere. Are widgets tied to schema fields now? I have the feeling they are, but maybe not. If they are, they should be more decoupled. -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] a plan for widgets?
Lennart Regebro wrote: On 3/16/06, Martijn Faassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] Are people interested in developing a plan to tackle these issues? If some of us chip in we may get somewhere. Are widgets tied to schema fields now? I have the feeling they are, but maybe not. If they are, they should be more decoupled. Just to interfaces of schema fields as views. The schema fields are in a hierarchy. I'm not sure how you would mean to decouple this. Anyway, my aim with this discussion is not to fundamentally overhaul the way widgets work, just to see what we can do relatively easily. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] a plan for widgets?
On 3/16/06, Martijn Faassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just to interfaces of schema fields as views. The schema fields are in a hierarchy. I'm not sure how you would mean to decouple this. Anyway, my aim with this discussion is not to fundamentally overhaul the way widgets work, just to see what we can do relatively easily. Well, OK, one thing at a time. ;) -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] a plan for widgets?
Hey Roger, Great to have you onboard on this! Roger Ineichen wrote: [snip] btw, didn't Gary Poster start a widget refactoring? Good question. I have no idea what the status of all that stuff is; whether anything got merged or not.. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] a plan for widgets?
On Thursday 16 March 2006 11:06, Martijn Faassen wrote: Are people interested in developing a plan to tackle these issues? If some of us chip in we may get somewhere. Gary has already begun the work of a widget replacement. Talk to him, he has some good ideas. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] a plan for widgets?
Stephan Richter wrote: On Thursday 16 March 2006 11:06, Martijn Faassen wrote: Are people interested in developing a plan to tackle these issues? If some of us chip in we may get somewhere. Gary has already begun the work of a widget replacement. Talk to him, he has some good ideas. Okay, Gary, can we help? Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] a plan for widgets?
On Mar 16, 2006, at 11:42 AM, Martijn Faassen wrote: Hey Roger, Great to have you onboard on this! Roger Ineichen wrote: [snip] btw, didn't Gary Poster start a widget refactoring? Good question. I have no idea what the status of all that stuff is; whether anything got merged or not.. At ZC, several of us had enough experience with the zope widgets that we felt pretty confident that we wanted to start again, with a backwards compatibility story. We started, but ran out of steam, and didn't have a driving project for the changes, so we shelved it. We have an upcoming project that will want the changes. Our current plan is to develop what we need as zc.widget or something, and open- source it at the end when it's what we need, in the hopes that some will find it compelling enough to join in the maintenance and further development (btw, thanks, dobe, for the work on resourcelibrary!). No public timeframe. Doing it in the zc namespace is intended to make no assumptions about what happens with zope.app.form; zc.widget probably will have some backwards-compatibility with zope.app.form, but no dependencies. Gary ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
