Re: [Zope3-Users] So, there is going to be no Zope4... how to handle maintenance a couple of years from now?

2014-09-07 Thread Thierry Florac 

Hi,

Le Sun, 7 Sep 2014 09:26:43 +0530,
  Milind Khadilkar zedobj...@gmail.com a écrit:

 Seems there will be no Zope4. Puts a fond hope to rest.
 
 I have one large Zope2 (Zope 2.6) project, one large Zope3 (Zope 3.4)
 project, two medium sized Grok projects, one GAE project, allof them
 need to be maintained beyond two years.
 I would like, if possible, to redevelop them using ONE single
 framework. While some of the original developers are available, most
 work would need to be done through people who need to be trained from
 the ground up.
 
 My first choice (mainly because I have a complex Zope3 project to
 redevelop) would be Bluebream, even if it means using ZCML and
 programming in ZCA-shackles. But I am speaking without any real
 experience of it. (Negative press ensured that I did not go for it...)
 
 Any suggestions?

If you are considering a complete re-development, maybe you should have
a look at Pyramid.
It allows you to reuse a lot of Zope related technologies, including
ZODB, traversing and even ZCA ! ;-)

I use and develop ZTFY which is based on Bluebream (with updated
packages based on ZTK) and which is used in many of my own projects
with great success, but which is probably condamned to death in a
relatively near future...

Regards,
Thierry


P.S.: by the way, I don't really understand where is the real problem
with ZCA (which is so powerful, and not so complicated!) and with ZCML
(which is nothing in XML files terms compared to any serious Java
server development environment...)
___
Zope3-users mailing list
Zope3-users@zope.org
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users

Re: [Zope3-Users] So, there is going to be no Zope4... how to handle maintenance a couple of years from now?

2014-09-07 Thread Milind Khadilkar 
Thanks, Jim, for your responses!
These thoughts from you deserve a larger readership than this thread
provides.
I think I will restart thinking on this from scratch.
Thanks, again.

-Milind

On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 8:12 PM, Jim Fulton j...@zope.com wrote:

 On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 4:44 AM, Milind Khadilkar zedobj...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  Thanks, Thierry.
  I think the real problem with ZCA and ZCML is bad press. We did not
 face
  any ZCML problem when we worked on the Zope3 projects. It was later,
  thankfully, that we came across the negative opinion. ZCA did require a
  mindset change for some, but more often than not it has helped them in
 their
  future work on other platforms too.
  But that was 10 years ago... Don't know about now.

 I'm proud of the ZCA in many ways, but:

 - ZCA was designed for problems that most people don't or shouldn't have,
   which is making a complex application pluggable.

   If your application is complex, that's a problem

   http://legacy.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/

 - In the Zope 3 project, we used the CA way more than we should
   have. Initially, this was to prove that we could.  Once we were
   convinced that every (damn) thing could be pluggable we should
   have stopped and simplified, using the ZCA only where needed.
   Instead, we'd established a culture of crazy levels of indirection.

 - Outrageous indirection in the base system made starting new projects
   either super difficult, an exercise in cargo-cult-programming, or both.

   I've come to the conclusion that any framework that requires or
   encourages its users to use project-templates or project-setup
   wizards isn't something I want to use.

 I stopped using Zope 3 several years ago when I realized that the
 weight of the framework wasn't justified by it's benefits, at least for
 me.

 I've decided that I'd rather use decoupled frameworks that, ideally,
 are simple to learn and use individually.  That's why I use bobo now,
 http://bobo.digicool.com. A more conventional choice along the same
 lines would be Flask, although I think bobo is simpler. (Of course, I'm
 biased. :)

 I still use the ZCA, especially zope.event, but in a wildly lighter-weight
 fashion than I did in Zope 3.

 Part of the reason I prefer simpler server frameworks today is that
 Web applications are far more client centered today than they were
 when I worked on Zope 2 and even Zope 3.  Today, for applications
 (as opposed to content *sites*), UI logic, including templating, mostly
 happens on the client, and web servers are largely REST/RPC/Database
 servers.

 Jim

 P.S. If you find the ZCA interesting, you should check out Scala and it's
implicits and type-level programming. It does many of the same
things as the ZCA at compile time. It's crazy beautiful and evil all
at the same time. :)

 --
 Jim Fulton
 http://www.linkedin.com/in/jimfulton

___
Zope3-users mailing list
Zope3-users@zope.org
https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users